Conservatives and guns

Calminian

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I'm a Conservative who is completely for the 2nd amendment myself, but I got to thinking... While we know that not ALL Muslims are bad, we are OK with measures taken against Islam, but at the same time, while we know that not ALL gun owners are bad, conservatives freak out with measures taken against them to prevent the crazies. Why?

Not sure I agree with the premise. What measures are you referring to? In fact the temporary muslim ban until we can figure out a better way to vet them, seems a measure most conservatives agree with. That deals with the crazies. I think most conservatives are also for better mental health regulations and Trump has talked about.
 
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Calvinist Dark Lord

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I'm a Conservative who is completely for the 2nd amendment myself, but I got to thinking... While we know that not ALL Muslims are bad, we are OK with measures taken against Islam, but at the same time, while we know that not ALL gun owners are bad, conservatives freak out with measures taken against them to prevent the crazies. Why?
A person very wise in the ways of political machinations once told me that "When listening to a political statement, remember that everything before the word but is BS."

Colour me sceptical.
 
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jgarden

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For the most part, it's a kind of slippery slope thing. They don't want one thing to lead to another and then we have a government revolution USSR style and they can't do anything about it.

Me personally, I favor gun rights for most militaristic reasons, but I also favor regulation.
Stalin conducted purges against the secret police and the Russian military during the late 1930's - both of which had access to firearms.
 
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smaneck

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I suspect that any state could write its own gun laws to be identical to Switzerland's and it would have passed muster under the Supreme Courts of the first 50 years of US existence, especially since the Court would not have even bothered hearing a suit of a state citizen against his own state in those days.

And it would be closer to the original intent which was that state militias should serve in the place of a standing army.
 
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jgarden

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Not sure I agree with the premise. What measures are you referring to? In fact the temporary muslim ban until we can figure out a better way to vet them, seems a measure most conservatives agree with. That deals with the crazies. I think most conservatives are also for better mental health regulations and Trump has talked about.
Would Trump have us believe that ISIS terrorists will voluntarily identify themselves as Muslims when they are trying to enter the country?
 
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Darkhorse

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To answer the OP, the NRA actually does have too much influence. I don't think they "control the mass shootings", but I do wish there was more than one pro-gun group. Maybe a moderate one that isn't so lobbyist-loving.

There are several other national pro-gun groups, but the NRA is the oldest and most influential, dating back to 1871.

I have stuck with them through the years, even though they sometimes get too liberal for my taste! o_O
 
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Hank77

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Not sure I agree with the premise. What measures are you referring to? In fact the temporary muslim ban until we can figure out a better way to vet them, seems a measure most conservatives agree with. That deals with the crazies. I think most conservatives are also for better mental health regulations and Trump has talked about.
I don't think it should be just people who may be Muslim, it should be all immigrates and refugees, I don't really care what religion they Claim to be. Do we say this one comes from a country that is Muslim majority but because they claim to be Christian they should be vetted differently than the one who claims to be Muslim? I don't think so. We cannot always identify a terrorist by their nationality or their race. The vetting should be the same for everyone.
 
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QuiltAngel

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The reason many conservatives are against more regulation is that we feel that we should be using the laws we already have instead of creating more.

None of the new regulations would have prevented the mass shootings either.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Obama's current executive orders seem to be targeting mass shootings.. which.. um.. isn't.. number wise[??]... the least amount of gun deaths a year? I mean if you wish to stop gun deaths why go after the least common factor? I guess because the act is the most sensationalized?

His proposals are driven by emotion, the power behind liberal legislation.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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It just gives gun owners like my family--we own guns for hunting--a bad name when some redneck says "well, if ya wanna prevent more shootin's, jest bring armed guards to the schools!"

Regardless of the grammar, that's the only way schools like Sandy Hook can be defended.

Often, the NRa says this to try to help and keep things secure, which is very nice, but do you have to traumatize a bunch of people by waving guns around right after they have just survived a mass shooting?

The only people that would be traumatized are the liberal teachers and administration. I don't think the kids would mind at all (did anyone ask any kids anywhere what they thought?).
 
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Calvinist Dark Lord

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Regardless of the grammar, that's the only way schools like Sandy Hook can be defended.



The only people that would be traumatized are the liberal teachers and administration. I don't think the kids would mind at all (did anyone ask any kids anywhere what they thought?).
The high school i attended in Pennsylvania...the same one Rick Santorum attended a few years after me ("Rooster" was stupid back then too)...was the first in the nation to have armed security IN the school. Their armed security consists of retired police. Those men are used to handling firearms in public. i applaud the efforts of the Butler PA school district.

i find it instructive that in Israel, the teachers are required to be armed.

We defend everything we value (such as the gold at Ft. Knox) with armed people. Only seems rational to me that we should defend our children with guns.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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The high school i attended in Pennsylvania...the same one Rick Santorum attended a few years after me ("Rooster" was stupid back then too)...was the first in the nation to have armed security IN the school. Their armed security consists of retired police. Those men are used to handling firearms in public. i applaud the efforts of the Butler PA school district.

i find it instructive that in Israel, the teachers are required to be armed.

We defend everything we value (such as the gold at Ft. Knox) with armed people. Only seems rational to me that we should defend our children with guns.

I suggested that if teachers wouldn't accept their role as guardians of our kids through firearms training at least they should be armed and trained in the use of super soaker squirt guns loaded with liquid pepper spray (bulletproof desktops wouldn't be a bad idea either).
 
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OldWiseGuy

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I suggested that if teachers wouldn't accept their role as guardians of our kids through firearms training at least they should be armed and trained in the use of super soaker squirt guns loaded with liquid pepper spray (bulletproof desktops wouldn't be a bad idea either).

What is really chilling is the thought of ISIS jihadists attacking our schools. They like to inflict the most horrible carnage they can on the most defenseless. I would encourage a national effort to secure and defend our students, to include a student militia where possible and appropriate.
 
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Calvinist Dark Lord

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What is really chilling is the thought of ISIS jihadists attacking our schools. They like to inflict the most horrible carnage they can on the most defenseless. I would encourage a national effort to secure and defend our students, to include a student militia where possible and appropriate.
Already exists in many school districts. They have rifle teams don't they?

HOWEVER: We have plenty of professionals such as retired police. Yes, they are older men. But when did you ever need to be a 20 something athlete to pull a trigger and hit the target? We have men in my part of the country, WWII combat veterans. Some of them are hooked to oxygen tanks. However, every year during hunting season, they can pick which eye of the deer they are going to put the round through over iron sights at 4-500 yards...whilst strapped to their oxygen tanks. That tradition still exists back home.

i would prefer that professionals handle a matter such as an attack on a school. Cool heads, better aim, knowing when NOT to fire, and less casualties because the kids don't have the experience.

As for our teachers, many of them will have in the next generation been Iraq or Afghanistan combat veterans. i don't think there'd be an issue with them carrying weapons.

DISCLAIMER: My school district has NOT contemplated such an action. We are satisfied with armed security guards on campus. There has never been a violent incident involving firearms in that district.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Already exists in many school districts. They have rifle teams don't they?

HOWEVER: We have plenty of professionals such as retired police. Yes, they are older men. But when did you ever need to be a 20 something athlete to pull a trigger and hit the target? We have men in my part of the country, WWII combat veterans. Some of them are hooked to oxygen tanks. However, every year during hunting season, they can pick which eye of the deer they are going to put the round through over iron sights at 4-500 yards...whilst strapped to their oxygen tanks. That tradition still exists back home.

i would prefer that professionals handle a matter such as an attack on a school. Cool heads, better aim, knowing when NOT to fire, and less casualties because the kids don't have the experience.

As for our teachers, many of them will have in the next generation been Iraq or Afghanistan combat veterans. i don't think there'd be an issue with them carrying weapons.

DISCLAIMER: My school district has NOT contemplated such an action. We are satisfied with armed security guards on campus. There has never been a violent incident involving firearms in that district.

My point is to have a comprehensive defense plan which may or may not include armed school staff. One thing is certain, more schools will be attacked in the future and more kids will be killed.
 
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grandvizier1006

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Regardless of the grammar, that's the only way schools like Sandy Hook can be defended.



The only people that would be traumatized are the liberal teachers and administration. I don't think the kids would mind at all (did anyone ask any kids anywhere what they thought?).
Let me clarify: I'm ok with security people having guns. My college has campus security, and I really wanted to know if they had guns because the place is in a bad neighborhood. But I think there are certain places where you ought not to wave an assault rifle around, like an elementary school, movie theater, church or govt. Building. Security guards with pistols or gazers are fine, but when I think nRA, I think men with hunting rifles and assault weapons, not concealed pistols.

It was mainly after Sandy Hook, and I thought that maybe the surviving children wouldn't want to see armed men around their elementary school, possibly due to PTSD.
 
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myownmynativeland

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I'm a Conservative who is completely for the 2nd amendment myself, but I got to thinking... While we know that not ALL Muslims are bad, we are OK with measures taken against Islam, but at the same time, while we know that not ALL gun owners are bad, conservatives freak out with measures taken against them to prevent the crazies. Why?
EXACTLY what measures which would 'prevent crazies' do you feel conservatives are reacting against?
 
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TLK Valentine

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Already exists in many school districts. They have rifle teams don't they?

HOWEVER: We have plenty of professionals such as retired police. Yes, they are older men. But when did you ever need to be a 20 something athlete to pull a trigger and hit the target? We have men in my part of the country, WWII combat veterans. Some of them are hooked to oxygen tanks. However, every year during hunting season, they can pick which eye of the deer they are going to put the round through over iron sights at 4-500 yards...whilst strapped to their oxygen tanks. That tradition still exists back home.

i would prefer that professionals handle a matter such as an attack on a school. Cool heads, better aim, knowing when NOT to fire, and less casualties because the kids don't have the experience.

As for our teachers, many of them will have in the next generation been Iraq or Afghanistan combat veterans. i don't think there'd be an issue with them carrying weapons.

DISCLAIMER: My school district has NOT contemplated such an action. We are satisfied with armed security guards on campus. There has never been a violent incident involving firearms in that district.

Districts barely makes ends meet when it comes to actually educating our children... and laws such as NCLB base their funding on test scores, not armed guards.

Not saying it's a bad idea, but who's going to pay for it?
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Let me clarify: I'm ok with security people having guns. My college has campus security, and I really wanted to know if they had guns because the place is in a bad neighborhood. But I think there are certain places where you ought not to wave an assault rifle around, like an elementary school, movie theater, church or govt. Building. Security guards with pistols or gazers are fine, but when I think nRA, I think men with hunting rifles and assault weapons, not concealed pistols.

It was mainly after Sandy Hook, and I thought that maybe the surviving children wouldn't want to see armed men around their elementary school, possibly due to PTSD.

While in school, even college, kids live in a make believe world. Perhaps it's time to acquaint them with reality at the same time we educate them.
 
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HannahT

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Let me clarify: I'm ok with security people having guns. My college has campus security, and I really wanted to know if they had guns because the place is in a bad neighborhood. But I think there are certain places where you ought not to wave an assault rifle around, like an elementary school, movie theater, church or govt. Building. Security guards with pistols or gazers are fine, but when I think nRA, I think men with hunting rifles and assault weapons, not concealed pistols.

Why would you think if they had armed security in those places it would be people waving around assault rifles? That just defies common sense, and yet today it is the picture that people love to present. Generally, even hunters have concealed pistols, etc.

In the past people who were trained, retired, etc were willing to volunteer to keep these places safe at no charge. No waving around assault rifles needed! lol! NRA does have many training programs available to individuals that need gun training, and use those that are will trained to do that. You thinking WAY to narrow about the NRA. I realize its the popular thing to do today though. It's getting rather stupid though. I mean many states have the same training programs available to gun owners as well.

It was mainly after Sandy Hook, and I thought that maybe the surviving children wouldn't want to see armed men around their elementary school, possibly due to PTSD.

No doubt you would have some surviving children that wouldn't want to see armed men, but with concealed weapons they don't have to see them. There are ways of dealing with this tactfully, and give a sense of safety to those children that need to know someone is there to protect them as well. As we know life is never perfect, and the bad guys could still get past guards...yet it is also a comfort to many that know they are there.

I remember the kid's HS after Sandy Hook - and other shootings. The police were parked outside the schools with cops locked and loaded. They had the police walking the hallways, and it did indeed bring a sense of calm there. When our school had a lock down because NUT was on the loose with a stolen weapon? There wasn't one child there that didn't appreciate the presence of the police there knowing they would protect them if needed. Believe me - they all talked about it!

I think what is harming our society the most is all these narrow views of certain groups of people. People are custom, and everyone is different. Decent people that are gun owners would never in a million years think about presenting themselves the way you presented it. lol! I think people's imaginations tend to run away with them!

That's NOT to say the media and to many politicians haven't encouraged that! This is true too!
 
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