Why do people believe in a Rapture?

iamlamad said:

OF COURSE He Returns after the tribulation. I think we ALL agree on that. But He also comes before the "tribulation" to get His saints.

Just in case you have not noticed, chapter 11 seems to be in the MIDDLE of the book, not at the end. In fact, the 7th trumpet which is written in chapter 11 marks the EXACT MIDPOINT. How then can it be the midpoint and the end at the same time?

Did you not notice that those in Judea that flee (Jesus TOLD them to flee the moment they see the abomination that divides the week) flee right after the 7th trumpet? Therefore 12:6 is perhaps a second or two after the midpoint.

The 70th week is marked by 7's: the 7th seal opens the week, the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint, and the 7th vial ends it. It is fact, John saw the great crowd, too large to number - the JUST RAPTURED CHURCH - in heaven before the 70th week begins.

There are 5 ....no, 6 parallel paths down the last half of the week:
42 months of trampling
1260 days of testifying
1260 days of fleeing
3.5 years or feeding
42 months of authority

Finally, the last half as John goes through his narrative of chapters 11,12, 13...on to 16.

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Okay so I see l,you think you're raptured in the midst of the week.

So Daniel 9:27 is where the covenant starts and is broken 3.5 years (midst) by taking the sacrifice away. In the wing of abomination will make desolate. Slightly after the sacrifice is stopped, will be the abomination of desolation. Daniel 12:11. 1290 days from when it starts to its removal, when the army of the north (ac) army, is driven into the sea. Joel 2:20. The anti christ will come up in a time of peace. Daniel 11:21 He makes the covenant and all is well on the earth... No tribulation. Daniel 11:24 still tranquility. Daniel 11:34 his forces arise and desecrate the city and take away the sacrifice, then shortly after set up the abomination of desolation. Luke 21:21-22 Jerusalem surrounded scattering of Gods people has begun. Those in Judea are advised to vacate with a sense of considerable urgency...desolation hasn't occurred yet. Daniel 12:7 Daniel 7:25 Revelation 13:5 and Revelation 11:2 have begun. Israel protected according to Revelation 12:14. When the abomination of desolation has occurred major urgency to vacate Judea Matthew 24:15-18 don't even go back to the house, no hope for those in the midst of the city. When the abomination of desolation is up, too late if you're in the midst of the city.



Daniel 7:25 says the anti christ will make war with saints. Since Israel is protected Revelation 12:14, these saints are Christians (the church), and right living Jews. Revelation 12:17 tells us specifically who these saints are. The ones who hold the testimony of Jesus! Huh? Right Christians. Who keep the commandments of God. Huh! Yep, right standing Jews and/or Christians. This is just before the end because Daniel 7:26 tells us what happens immediately after these 3.5 years. Daniel 12:7 talks about the shattering of Gods holy people. Jews are set apart as a holy people, but Christians are also referred to as holy too. So again same thing as Revelation 12:17.

The 3.5 year period is not a 1260 day period. It is more than 1290 days, as the scattering of Gods holy people will happen before the abomination of desolation Daniel 12:11 1290 days. Get familiar with the Hebrew calendar, 3.5 years cannot be 1260 days, it would be typically around 1269 or so,and occasionally 1298 or so. In this particular case it will be the 1298 days. The 2 witnesses are alive and are aware of their identity. They will be called to prophesy clothed in sackcloth, shortly after the abomination of desolation.
Saints will be here during the great tribulation, as the bible says. The Lord is not trying to hide this from us.

Look, you can ignore the facts, but this is how it is. Of course, there are all the obvious things. Matthew 24:29-32 immediately after what? Oh yeah, the tribulation. Friend, you are confused by revelation and thinking Chapter 1-22 happen directly in order.
I can assure you the next major prophetic event is a Great War. Haggai 2:20-23.

Where are you getting this notion that animals came to eat meat only after the Flood? Where does it specifically say that in the Bible? You spoke earlier of a curse. Where does it say that animals were cursed to eat meat? How do you know what they ate on the ark? The Bible says God told Noah to take every kind of food that could be eaten, and that certainly includes meat. And how anyway could all the animals be on the ark, to start with? And if a T-Rex was on the ark, what happened to him or her? Probably the biggest problem I have with your material is that Gen. 2 is not a follow-up to Gen. 1. Gen. 2 is a wholly separate creation account written way before Gen. 1. Given that fact, your ideas do not add up.

Adam and Even were not created on the sixth day. In Gen. 1, maybe. But in Gen. 2, first Adam was created, then animals, then Eve. That's why I pointed out you are dealing with two contradictory accounts here. Trying to fuse these into one is what led medieval Christianity to assume Adam must have had a first wife.

Luke17:37 said:

Yeah, I'm aware of the various day numbers around 3.5 years and agree they are talking about the same general time period. My main point was I think the martyrs of the fifth seal suggest the 3.5 years/1260 days/42 months (whatever) where the Antichrist has the upper hand over most Christians actually starts before the fifth seal, not after the sixth trumpet.

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You are mistaken about the martyrs of the 5th seal: John has not yet even started the 70th week, yet you think these are 70th week martyrs?

The truth is, the first seal is to represent the CHURCH with the GOSPEL sent out to make disciples of all the world.
Seals 2,3, and 4 are to represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the church.

Seal 5 is for the martyrs of the CHURCH AGE. It fits perfectly in the church age, because THAT is where John is in His narrative. If they were 70th week martyrs, they would KNOW they only had 7 years or less to go, so no reason at all to ask. But take Stephen: He is one of these in this group, as well as the 10 disciples that were martyred. They had no idea how long the church age was to last.

The antichrist does not even get revealed until the midpoint. You are rearranging John's book.

Where is the evidence, Like, that the animals were cursed by having to eat meat? Specific biblical passage please.

I don't understand why you are referring to the Antichrist here. There is absolutely no Antichrist in the Book of Revelations. Where references to the Antichrist are found, in I and 2 John, this refers to the notion that Christ was largely a God in a man suit, not fully human. You need to read the bible more and pay less attention to sensationalists like Hal Lindsey, etc.

I don't agree that the Book of Revelations is referring to an end of time at some point way in the future. I think the author and his followers looked forward to an immanent end of the world right then. I find it symbolic of the times, of the exploitation by Rome. I also don't understand how you are getting the Antichrist into the picture. The Antichrist, in the Bible, is simply referring tot he notion that Christ was not fully human, period.

Where exactly does Daniel use the term "Antichrist"? I ask, because I really don't think you know what the term means. I think you should read I and 2 Jn. It simply means the notion that Christ had not real humanity. Hence, you are seriously mislabeling characters here.

Hoghead1 said:

Where exactly does Daniel use the term "Antichrist"? I ask, because I really don't think you know what the term means. I think you should read I and 2 Jn. It simply means the notion that Christ had not real humanity. Hence, you are seriously mislabeling characters here.

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It's the man if sin 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 Daniel 9:27 it's the same event, same person. Yes, the spirit of anti christ is among us. Anything against Christ, you see it today.

Douggg said:

I personally don't think God directly created T-Rex. I think T-Rex was a result of Satan's angels getting into gene engineering .

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Agree with you on this one.

Hoghead1 said:

Where exactly does Daniel use the term "Antichrist"? I ask, because I really don't think you know what the term means. I think you should read I and 2 Jn. It simply means the notion that Christ had not real humanity. Hence, you are seriously mislabeling characters here.

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Of course we know Daniel 9:27 and Daniel 12:11 haven't happened yet because Jesus says to beware when we see what was spoken of by Daniel the prophet Matthew 24:15 also Daniel 11:31 he is Daniel 11:21 also. 1 John 2:18 calls him by his title anti christ.

I understand ho9w people today use the term "Antichrist." However, I stress that is not at all what Scripture has in mind. Again, In I and 2 Jn., the concept of the Antichrist simply refers to the notion that Christ has no real humanity. The notion of suing this term to denote some kind of Devil, etc., is totally foreign to Scripture.

So long as you guys insist on using the term "Antichrist" in a sense completely antithetical to its use in Scripture, I put absolutely no credence in anything you have to say.

Hoghead1 said:

I understand ho9w people today use the term "Antichrist." However, I stress that is not at all what Scripture has in mind. Again, In I and 2 Jn., the concept of the Antichrist simply refers to the notion that Christ has no real humanity. The notion of suing this term to denote some kind of Devil, etc., is totally foreign to Scripture.

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the don of perdition, who is the same one that 1 John 2:18 is referring to. The son of perdition, anti christ, man of sin, the detestable one...same person

I understand that. But note that 2 John 1:7 says that many deceivers have gone out, people
who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. " This is not the don of perdition. There is something very different happening here. This is an early warning about the gnostic movement, which had a radically different image of Christ, whereby Christ was largely a divine being in a man suit. In his own nature, he is pure light and can project himself as looking like anything he wants, a man, a woman, etc.

Hoghead1 said:

I understand that. But note that 2 John 1:7 says that many deceivers have gone out, people
who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. " This is not the don of perdition. There is something very different happening here. This is an early warning about the gnostic movement, which had a radically different image of Christ, whereby Christ was largely a divine being in a man suit. In his own nature, he is pure light and can project himself as looking like anything he wants, a man, a woman, etc.

Click to expand...

Hoghead1 said:

I understand that. But note that 2 John 1:7 says that many deceivers have gone out, people
who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. " This is not the don of perdition. There is something very different happening here. This is an early warning about the gnostic movement, which had a radically different image of Christ, whereby Christ was largely a divine being in a man suit. In his own nature, he is pure light and can project himself as looking like anything he wants, a man, a woman, etc.

Click to expand...

Hoghead1 said:

I understand that. But note that 2 John 1:7 says that many deceivers have gone out, people
who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. " This is not the don of perdition. There is something very different happening here. This is an early warning about the gnostic movement, which had a radically different image of Christ, whereby Christ was largely a divine being in a man suit. In his own nature, he is pure light and can project himself as looking like anything he wants, a man, a woman, etc.

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There are many who are anti (against ) christ. There were then, And still are today. There will be a specific anti christ, son of perdition, despicable one etc. we typically refer to him as the anti christ though.

I still say that you need to point out that you are using the term "Antichrist" in a sense radically different than that intended by Scripture. I just don't think you should go to Scripture and just pull out any terms you want and then redefine them as you want, and that's precisely what you and others are doing here.

Hoghead1 said:

I still say that you need to point out that you are using the term "Antichrist" in a sense radically different than that intended by Scripture. I just don't think you should go to Scripture and just pull out any terms you want and then redefine them as you want, and that's precisely what you and others are doing here.

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but, if they're all the same person, what does it matter? I guess you'd prefer the title son of perdition, or man of sin? Here's the thing though, people are just more familiar with the title anti christ. When I'm trying to get a point across, I'll just use what folks are most familiar with. Then you'll know, they'll know and everyone should know who I'm referring to.

But, see, they are not all the same person at all. That's why you never find the term "Antichrist" use din the Book of Revelations ort Daniel, either. The term "Antichrist" properly used, used in the way Scripture uses it, is simply someone who has trouble accepting the humanity of Christ, which was and is a major issue in theology. The Beast in the Book of Revelations is something all together different. I view the Book of Revelations as a symbolic way of talking about the Roman Empire at the time and hopping for its downfall. So with Revelations we're concerned with the ruling powers, not person having trouble with the humanity of Christ. Dig?

iamlamad said:

OF COURSE He Returns after the tribulation. I think we ALL agree on that. But He also comes before the "tribulation" to get His saints.

Just in case you have not noticed, chapter 11 seems to be in the MIDDLE of the book, not at the end. In fact, the 7th trumpet which is written in chapter 11 marks the EXACT MIDPOINT. How then can it be the midpoint and the end at the same time?

Did you not notice that those in Judea that flee (Jesus TOLD them to flee the moment they see the abomination that divides the week) flee right after the 7th trumpet? Therefore 12:6 is perhaps a second or two after the midpoint.

The 70th week is marked by 7's: the 7th seal opens the week, the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint, and the 7th vial ends it. It is fact, John saw the great crowd, too large to number - the JUST RAPTURED CHURCH - in heaven before the 70th week begins.

There are 5 ....no, 6 parallel paths down the last half of the week:
42 months of trampling
1260 days of testifying
1260 days of fleeing
3.5 years or feeding
42 months of authority

Finally, the last half as John goes through his narrative of chapters 11,12, 13...on to 16.

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Oh, and 1260 days of protection in Revelation 12:5-6 not related to Revelation 12:14. Revelation 12:5-6 occurred around the time the (son of) Man Child (Christ), was caught up to the right hand of the Father. Again, the 1260 days is not exactly 3.5 years (not in the Hebrew Calendar) the abomination of desolation will occur before an intercalary (leap) year, in the Hebrew calendar. allowing for more than 1290 days in a 3.5 year period. We know this from Daniel 12:11. The scattering of Gods people Luke 21:20 to the end of the scattering Daniel 12:7 will happen before the abomination of desolation, but end at the same time. This will actually mark the midst of the week... The scattering of Gods people and the end to the sacrifice will be in the midst. But it is a few days before he (anti christ) makes desolate Daniel 9:27. It will come on the wing of abominations he makes desolate. Or do the think the anti christ will be on the front lines of battle? Nope. Invading army scatters, sacrifice ended 1298 days left in the midst (final 3.5). Anti christ comes in a few days later and 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4. There's it is on the wing of abominations he makes desolate. 1290 days left. About 25 days later The 2 witnesses come on the scene,who will be clothed in sackcloth and prophesy 1260 days, 3.5 days caught up and that's it from there. That's how I know Revelation 11:15 is the final trumpet.