Why do people believe in a Rapture?

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Fusion77

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Agreed.

Are you saying that from Revelation 11:1-15 there will be 42 months of events to happen before the physical return of Jesus with power and great glory after the Tribulation mentioned in Matthew 24:29-31?

If so ,that mean that is is wrong to suppose that the Tribulation is finished at the sound of the 7th trumpet of Revelation 11:15.
No. I am saying that is it. After Revelation 11:15 the church is caught up. Then comes the wrath of God to those who remain.
 
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Fusion77

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Agreed.

Are you saying that from Revelation 11:1-15 there will be 42 months of events to happen before the physical return of Jesus with power and great glory after the Tribulation mentioned in Matthew 24:29-31?

If so ,that mean that is is wrong to suppose that the Tribulation is finished at the sound of the 7th trumpet of Revelation 11:15.
What I am saying. is that shortly after the 2 witnesses are caught up, the elect (church will be caught up). Those 42 months in Revelation 11:2, when they're completed that's it.
 
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Riberra

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No. I am saying that is it. After Revelation 11:15 the church is caught up. Then comes the wrath of God to those who remain.
Where is the Church caught up, do you believe that the Church will be caught up to Heaven or only as high than the clouds in the sky?
 
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Fusion77

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Where is the Church caught up, do you believe that the Church will be caught up to Heaven or only as high than the clouds in the sky?
After the church is caught up. The Lord will exact vengeance on the inhabitants of the earth. Of course, we will meet the Lord in the air and then be rewarded described in Revelation 20:4-6 notice verse 5 states this is the first resurrection. Verse 4 also says "they came to life and reigned with Christ 1000 years." If they came to life it sounds like 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4 where the dead rise.


That's the way I see it now, I'm not 100% on that though. Jude 1:14, I believe may not be speaking of us, but perhaps His army. Maybe the same as Joel 2:3-5. Right now it seems to me like the Day of the Lord and those events will occur right after we're caught up. I don't believe we'll be involved. I could be wrong though. Vengeance is mine saith the Lord.
 
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iamlamad said in post 5477:

In Paul's epistles the trump of God - the very LAST trump of the church age -

Note that there is no such thing as the church age, for the church will continue in the world throughout all ages (Ephesians 3:21, John 17:15). For just as the church will continue in the world throughout the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), and then throughout the subsequent millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29), so the church will then continue forever on the new earth (Revelation 21:1 to 22:5).

iamlamad said in post 5477:

- will sound BEFORE the Day of the Lord,

Note that the future day of the Lord (Christ) (2 Thessalonians 2:2) will begin at the Lord Jesus Christ's 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't occur until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, "immediately after" the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8), which is when the rapture (the gathering together) of the church will occur (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

iamlamad said in post 5477:

Surely you realize that YOU must rearrange Revelation to make your theory fit?

No, for Revelation chapters 6 to 22 are chronological insofar as the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will begin with the events of the 2nd through 6th seals, occurring in the order shown in Revelation 6:3-14. After the events of the 6th seal, Revelation 7 will occur. Then the 7th seal will be unsealed, and out of it will come the tribulation's 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-6). Then the events of the first 6 trumpets in Revelation 8:7 to Revelation 9:21 will occur in the order shown there. Then Revelation 10 will occur. Then the literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign will occur, which time period is shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13).

Then the 7th trumpet will sound, announcing the legal end of the Antichrist's reign (Revelation 11:15). Out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening will come the 7 plagues of the 7 vials (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1), the tribulation's final stage. Then the events of the 7 vials will occur in the order shown in Revelation 16. Jesus will return right after the 7th vial (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21), and he will rapture and marry the church at that time (Revelation 19:7). Then he will defeat the world's armies (Revelation 19:11 to 20:3) and reign on the earth with the physically resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29; 1 Corinthians 15:51-53). Then the events of Revelation 20:7 to Revelation 22:5 will occur in the order shown there.
 
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Fusion77 said in post 5491:

I listen to a man on the radio who believes 5 trumpets have sounded already.

Note that they may not have started yet, because, for example, regarding the 2nd trumpet, Revelation 8:8a could refer to the future collapse into the ocean of an erupting volcano, possibly one of the Canary Islands. Revelation 8:8b could refer to 1/3 of the North Atlantic turning blood-red due to a gigantic amount of blood-red mud pouring forth from the volcano into the sea for an extended period of time. Revelation 8:9a could refer to 1/3 of the sea creatures in the North Atlantic dying because of there being so much mud in the water. Revelation 8:9b could refer to 1/3 of the North Atlantic's ships being destroyed in port by a massive tsunami caused by the volcano's collapse into the ocean.

This tsunami could also cause a string of awful, Fukushima-type, nuclear-meltdown radiation disasters in the nuclear power plants and their nuclear-waste storage facilities all along the eastern seaboard of the U.S. Also, if the tsunami breaks open the germ-containment structures on Plum Island, just off the coast of Connecticut, especially-deadly viruses and bacteria could be washed inland and spread across the U.S. and Canada as they infect animals and people.

After the volcanic activity and possible tsunami, at the 3rd trumpet a comet will strike the earth (Revelation 8:10-11), possibly in the U.S. and Canadian Great Lakes region. As the comet falls from the sky, it will look like a great star, or like a burning lamp in the sky (Revelation 8:10). It will strike a region of the earth which contains 1/3 of the world's fresh surface water (Revelation 8:10b), and it will contain some poisonous element which will poison that water so that many who drink from it will die (Revelation 8:11b).

Regarding the 5th trumpet, note that the weird locust-like beings in Revelation 9:7-10, as well as the subsequent, 6th trumpet army of 200 million weird horse-like beings in Revelation 9:16-19, could both be literal, and could both be seen by the world as "aliens", or "demons", when in fact they could both be animals which evolved or were miraculously created (at different times) on this planet millions of years ago. The weird locust-like beings are currently living, or are in some state of extended hibernation, in the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:2-3,11), which may have a physical manifestation as a deep underground cavern. The top of this cavern could be deep under the city of Abadan (in Iran), just as the bottomless pit is under the angel Abaddon (Revelation 9:11). The weird locust-like beings will swarm up from the bottomless pit to torment mankind with excruciating stings for 5 months (Revelation 9:2-10). They won't kill anyone, but they will make those they sting want to die, the pain will be so bad (Revelation 9:5-6).

Regarding the subsequent, weird horse-like beings (Revelation 9:16-19), because they will have to come from somewhere, and it could be difficult to keep 200 million of them hidden on the earth, they could currently be living, or be in some state of extended hibernation, in hidden underground bases somewhere away from this planet, such as on the far side of this planet's moon, and/or on the next planet out from the sun (they could even be a source of the mysterious methane emissions which have been detected in places emanating from beneath the 4th planet's surface).

The 200 million literal, weird horse-like beings of the 6th trumpet (Revelation 9:16-19) haven't come upon the earth yet (as is sometimes claimed), for 1/3 of mankind hasn't been killed by them yet (Revelation 9:18).

*******

Fusion77 said in post 5524:

Jude 1:14, I believe may not be speaking of us, but perhaps His army. Maybe the same as Joel 2:3-5.

Regarding Joel 2:3-5, note that Joel 2:1-27 can refer poetically to a literal locust invasion which destroyed ancient Israel's crops (Joel 2:25) sometime before the Acts 2 day of Pentecost in the 1st century AD (Joel 2:28-29, Acts 2:16-18). For the day of the Lord in Joel 2:1-27 can refer to an ancient day of the Lord, like the ancient day of the Lord in Jeremiah 46:2,10. Both of these ancient days of the Lord can be different than the future day of the Lord (Joel 2:31), which won't start until sometime after (as in only a few years after) the 6th seal (Revelation 6:12, Joel 2:31) of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. For the future day of the Lord (Christ) (2 Thessalonians 2:2) won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't occur until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Joel 2:1 referring only to Zion, the holy mountain, and to the land, can mean that it is referring only to a localized day of the Lord which affected only the ancient Israelites on their land. Joel 2:2 can refer to a huge cloud of literal locusts darkening the skies of Israel. Just as literal ants can be referred to as "a people" (Hebrew: "am": H5971) (Proverbs 30:25), so a huge cloud of devouring locusts can be referred to poetically as "a great people (H5971) and a strong" (Joel 2:2). Joel 2:3b describes the effects of a locust invasion, which can be poetically expressed as being like a devouring fire (Joel 2:3a). Joel 2:4 can describe locusts running along the ground as looking like little horses. Joel 2:5 can poetically describe locusts leaping high, and devouring every plant down even to its stubble. "A strong people set in battle array" (Joel 2:5) brings to mind another poetic description of a locust swarm: "go they forth all of them by bands", i.e. distributed into ranks (Hebrew: "chatsats": H2686) (Proverbs 30:27).

Joel 2:6 can poetically describe the immense grief felt by the ancient Israelites as they witnessed all their crops being devoured by the locust swarm. Joel 2:7 can describe locusts running along the ground and climbing up walls. "They shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks" (Joel 2:7) again brings to mind another poetic description of a literal locust swarm: "go they forth all of them by bands" (Proverbs 30:27). Joel 2:8 can refer to the locusts in the swarm not attacking each other, and to how useless a sword was in fighting against them. Because locusts are small and have an exoskeleton, they can just bounce off a swinging sword as they fly along. Joel 2:9 can refer to locusts running along the ground through a city, climbing up onto the walls of buildings and into windows looking for food anywhere they can.

Joel 2:10 can be poetic hyperbole to express how terrible the locust swarm was to the land of Israel, and how the swarm was so vast that it darkened the skies of Israel completely. The original Hebrew word (erets: H0776) translated as "the earth" (Joel 2:10) can refer only to a local area of land (e.g. Genesis 2:11,13), like how, for example, our word "earthquake" today can refer only to a local event. Joel 2:11 shows that the literal locust swarm wasn't (as is sometimes claimed) from Satan, fallen angels, or evil nephilim, but was considered by God to be his own "army", as it were (Joel 2:25). Joel 2:20 can mean that God's literal locust "army" (Joel 2:25) came from the north into the land of Israel, and that the swarm was eventually sent off by God into the barren desert, where the locusts died of starvation and their millions of dead bodies rotted in the sun and sent up a great stench. Joel 2:25 shows that it was literal locusts and other plant-destroying insects which God considered to be "my great army which I sent among you".

Joel 2:28-29 shows that the locusts devoured ancient Israel's crops sometime before the Acts 2 day of Pentecost in the 1st century AD. For Joel 2:28-29 began to happen sometime "afterward", sometime after the locust invasion of Joel 2:1-27. And Joel 2:28-29 began to happen at the Acts 2 day of Pentecost (Acts 2:16-18).
 
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Fusion77

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Note that they may not have started yet, because, for example, regarding the 2nd trumpet, Revelation 8:8a could refer to the future collapse into the ocean of an erupting volcano, possibly one of the Canary Islands. Revelation 8:8b could refer to 1/3 of the North Atlantic turning blood-red due to a gigantic amount of blood-red mud pouring forth from the volcano into the sea for an extended period of time. Revelation 8:9a could refer to 1/3 of the sea creatures in the North Atlantic dying because of there being so much mud in the water. Revelation 8:9b could refer to 1/3 of the North Atlantic's ships being destroyed in port by a massive tsunami caused by the volcano's collapse into the ocean.

This tsunami could also cause a string of awful, Fukushima-type, nuclear-meltdown radiation disasters in the nuclear power plants and their nuclear-waste storage facilities all along the eastern seaboard of the U.S. Also, if the tsunami breaks open the germ-containment structures on Plum Island, just off the coast of Connecticut, especially-deadly viruses and bacteria could be washed inland and spread across the U.S. and Canada as they infect animals and people.

After the volcanic activity and possible tsunami, at the 3rd trumpet a comet will strike the earth (Revelation 8:10-11), possibly in the U.S. and Canadian Great Lakes region. As the comet falls from the sky, it will look like a great star, or like a burning lamp in the sky (Revelation 8:10). It will strike a region of the earth which contains 1/3 of the world's fresh surface water (Revelation 8:10b), and it will contain some poisonous element which will poison that water so that many who drink from it will die (Revelation 8:11b).

Regarding the 5th trumpet, note that the weird locust-like beings in Revelation 9:7-10, as well as the subsequent, 6th trumpet army of 200 million weird horse-like beings in Revelation 9:16-19, could both be literal, and could both be seen by the world as "aliens", or "demons", when in fact they could both be animals which evolved or were miraculously created (at different times) on this planet millions of years ago. The weird locust-like beings are currently living, or are in some state of extended hibernation, in the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:2-3,11), which may have a physical manifestation as a deep underground cavern. The top of this cavern could be deep under the city of Abadan (in Iran), just as the bottomless pit is under the angel Abaddon (Revelation 9:11). The weird locust-like beings will swarm up from the bottomless pit to torment mankind with excruciating stings for 5 months (Revelation 9:2-10). They won't kill anyone, but they will make those they sting want to die, the pain will be so bad (Revelation 9:5-6).

Regarding the subsequent, weird horse-like beings (Revelation 9:16-19), because they will have to come from somewhere, and it could be difficult to keep 200 million of them hidden on the earth, they could currently be living, or be in some state of extended hibernation, in hidden underground bases somewhere away from this planet, such as on the far side of this planet's moon, and/or on the next planet out from the sun (they could even be a source of the mysterious methane emissions which have been detected in places emanating from beneath the 4th planet's surface).

The 200 million literal, weird horse-like beings of the 6th trumpet (Revelation 9:16-19) haven't come upon the earth yet (as is sometimes claimed), for 1/3 of mankind hasn't been killed by them yet (Revelation 9:18).

*******



Regarding Joel 2:3-5, note that Joel 2:1-27 can refer poetically to a literal locust invasion which destroyed ancient Israel's crops (Joel 2:25) sometime before the Acts 2 day of Pentecost in the 1st century AD (Joel 2:28-29, Acts 2:16-18). For the day of the Lord in Joel 2:1-27 can refer to an ancient day of the Lord, like the ancient day of the Lord in Jeremiah 46:2,10. Both of these ancient days of the Lord can be different than the future day of the Lord (Joel 2:31), which won't start until sometime after (as in only a few years after) the 6th seal (Revelation 6:12, Joel 2:31) of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. For the future day of the Lord (Christ) (2 Thessalonians 2:2) won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't occur until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Joel 2:1 referring only to Zion, the holy mountain, and to the land, can mean that it is referring only to a localized day of the Lord which affected only the ancient Israelites on their land. Joel 2:2 can refer to a huge cloud of literal locusts darkening the skies of Israel. Just as literal ants can be referred to as "a people" (Hebrew: "am": H5971) (Proverbs 30:25), so a huge cloud of devouring locusts can be referred to poetically as "a great people (H5971) and a strong" (Joel 2:2). Joel 2:3b describes the effects of a locust invasion, which can be poetically expressed as being like a devouring fire (Joel 2:3a). Joel 2:4 can describe locusts running along the ground as looking like little horses. Joel 2:5 can poetically describe locusts leaping high, and devouring every plant down even to its stubble. "A strong people set in battle array" (Joel 2:5) brings to mind another poetic description of a locust swarm: "go they forth all of them by bands", i.e. distributed into ranks (Hebrew: "chatsats": H2686) (Proverbs 30:27).

Joel 2:6 can poetically describe the immense grief felt by the ancient Israelites as they witnessed all their crops being devoured by the locust swarm. Joel 2:7 can describe locusts running along the ground and climbing up walls. "They shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks" (Joel 2:7) again brings to mind another poetic description of a literal locust swarm: "go they forth all of them by bands" (Proverbs 30:27). Joel 2:8 can refer to the locusts in the swarm not attacking each other, and to how useless a sword was in fighting against them. Because locusts are small and have an exoskeleton, they can just bounce off a swinging sword as they fly along. Joel 2:9 can refer to locusts running along the ground through a city, climbing up onto the walls of buildings and into windows looking for food anywhere they can.

Joel 2:10 can be poetic hyperbole to express how terrible the locust swarm was to the land of Israel, and how the swarm was so vast that it darkened the skies of Israel completely. The original Hebrew word (erets: H0776) translated as "the earth" (Joel 2:10) can refer only to a local area of land (e.g. Genesis 2:11,13), like how, for example, our word "earthquake" today can refer only to a local event. Joel 2:11 shows that the literal locust swarm wasn't (as is sometimes claimed) from Satan, fallen angels, or evil nephilim, but was considered by God to be his own "army", as it were (Joel 2:25). Joel 2:20 can mean that God's literal locust "army" (Joel 2:25) came from the north into the land of Israel, and that the swarm was eventually sent off by God into the barren desert, where the locusts died of starvation and their millions of dead bodies rotted in the sun and sent up a great stench. Joel 2:25 shows that it was literal locusts and other plant-destroying insects which God considered to be "my great army which I sent among you".

Joel 2:28-29 shows that the locusts devoured ancient Israel's crops sometime before the Acts 2 day of Pentecost in the 1st century AD. For Joel 2:28-29 began to happen sometime "afterward", sometime after the locust invasion of Joel 2:1-27. And Joel 2:28-29 began to happen at the Acts 2 day of Pentecost (Acts 2:16-18).
Regarding the seals and trumpets in Revelation...it is my belief many folks are confused by them, and the book of Revelation in general. The man on the radio makes a good point, but again, I'm not sure I necessarily agree with him. One thing I do know is that a major war will happen sometime soon. Not sure if it's this year or next, but it's on the horizon. It will be one that involves the shaking of the both the heavens and the earth. That's one reason why I think it's possible somehow that we're farther ahead than most think. I like to stick to the timetable that God has shown me, and listen to others perpective on the seals and trumpets. Basically, it's all cloudy to me until the 6th trumpet-7th trumpet.



Concerning Joel 2, the general thought is that this is speaking of the day of the Lord, as is 2 Peter 3:10. When I get to Joel 2:10 I noticed it made not only the earth but also the heavens tremble, also things in the heavens are changed. I tried to look through Joel 2, with the perpective you gave but have troubles with it. Really after the 10th verse, there's a lot of problems I tried to look at it, and consider the possibility, but I can't equate the events to a locust invasion. I think the best interpretation of that is a more literal. I appreciate your position though.
 
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Luke17:37

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Regarding the 5th trumpet, note that the weird locust-like beings in Revelation 9:7-10, as well as the subsequent, 6th trumpet army of 200 million weird horse-like beings in Revelation 9:16-19, could both be literal, and could both be seen by the world as "aliens", or "demons", when in fact they could both be animals which evolved or were miraculously created (at different times) on this planet millions of years ago.

What I am going to say is actually relevant to the return of Christ.

The Bible is clear that the universe hasn't been here for millions of years.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.

Genesis 1:2-1:31 describes how God created the universe and everything in it in six days, and in Genesis 2:1-3 God sanctified the Sabbath day (He established our 7 day week, which has continued to this day).

Exodus 20:8-11
8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

So, Exodus 20:11 tied Genesis 1 all together and does not allow a gap of millions of years.

Genesis 1:5
5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.

The days continue to be described literally: evening and morning, second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh.

Genesis 1:14
14 Then God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years;
(If the days of Genesis 1 were very long ages, than what would that make the season and the years?)

The genealogies in the Bible amount to about six thousand years to present.

I know that you can find plenty of Bible teachers who will say that it doesn't matter what you believe about Genesis and God could have used evolution, but that doesn't make them right (just as you can find plenty of Bible teachers who confidently teach Pre-Tribulation Rapture).

And the Almighty God certainly has the power to create good from nothing using only His spoken word. He doesn't require millions of years to do it. The only reason to add millions of years is to agree with the scientific establishment, who say the fossil record reflects millions of years (and they deny the worldwide flood). The Christian can look at the rock layers and the fossils and say, "These are just formed as a result of Noah's flood..." Further, death came about because of Adam's sin... and death not just for Adam's race--the entire creation is cursed. Death is the curse, not the method to make a "very good" creation. If death was not the penalty for sin, the curse is a myth, God is a liar and Jesus' death wouldn't have accomplished anything. God demonstrated from the beginning (just after the fall, that is) that a blood sacrifice was needed. The first blood sacrifice(s) happened to make clothes for Adam and Eve (Genesis 3:21). Our own "fig leaves" will never be sufficient to cover the shame of sin: we need our God to provide clothes of righteousness for us.

Did you know that God actually ties Biblical creation and the worldwide flood to the second coming of Jesus? Check this out:

2 Peter 3:3-9
3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. 7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

So, even as people willfully disbelieve the Biblical creation and worldwide flood accounts, it won't be a great stretch for them to disbelieve a literal, bodily return of Christ, too.

Biblical compromise is a slippery slope. The flood of Noah's day should lead us to reverent fear of God, knowing that He punished sin severely before and He promises to do it again. But if God's creation from water and the flood are myths, what parts of the Bible describe reality? It reminds me of the days of the Israel's judges: "In those days there was no king in Israel; everyone did what was right in his own eyes." It wasn't that there was no king in Israel--the Israelites had rejected the LORD as their king (1 Samuel 8:7).
 
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iamlamad

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In other words, you are saying the text does not mean what it plainly says.

This forum reveals the truth to others who are visiting. I do not expect to change your mind.

If this is the type of logic that is necessary to get the pretrib doctrine to work, then anyone can see the truth about the doctrine John Nelson Darby brought to America...
.
You are almost always mis-speaking. It is this kind of logic that is absolutely necessary to get a posttrib theory to work.

A real bible student cannot ignore the Greek that is behind the English. After all, neither Paul nor John wrote in English.

However, since we are discussing scripture, perhaps you could enlighten us as to WHY you choose to ignore the very same phrase written in chapter 6?

I can answer for you, and save you the trouble: believing that His wrath begins at the 6th seal (The day of His wrath has come) blows your theory right out of the water - so over course you ignore it.......just like you ignore the truth that the marriage and supper come before Jesus descends. That is no problem for you: just REARRANGE until it fits!
 
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iamlamad

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...
Year 1 - Seal 1
Year 2 - Seal 2
Year 3 - Seal 3
Year 4 - Seal 4 (Beast assumes control at about the 3.5 year mark and begins to overcome the saints)
Year 5 - Seal 5 (The first martyrs are given their white robes and told to wait until the full number come in)
Year 6 - Seal 6
Year 7 - Seal 7 = {Trumpet 1/Bowl 1, Trumpet 2/Bowl 2, Trumpet 3/Bowl 3, Trumpet 4/Bowl 4, Trumpet 5/Bowl 5, Trumpet 6/Bowl 6, Trumpet 7/Bowl 7}

This is complete nonsense. First, it completely ignores the CONTEXT of the seals, which is the vision of the throne room.

Next, it ignores plain text. Next, it has to REARRANGE what John with the Holy Spirit has written.

For example, John shows us that NO angel gets a trumpet into their hands until all seven seals are opened.

I have a suggestion: throw all your theories into file 13 and start over, only next time, start with scripture w/o preconceptions. Observe little things like John seeing the very moment Jesus ascended - little things like Jesus NOT BEING in the throne room in chapter 4 - little things like why NO MAN WAS FOUND in that first search John watched end in failure to find someone worthy - little things like the Holy Spirit being in the throne room in chapter 4, but being sent down the moment Jesus ascended - little things like no angel gets a trumpet until the 7th seal is opened - little things like John's NUMBERING.

Axiom on Revelation:
ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology will be immediately suspect and WILL BE proven wrong.
 
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iamlamad

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You are actually putting a spin on it by saying that the Trump of God will sound the END "of the Church age"wording invented by the pre-tribbers---Rather than being the Trump that will sound the Coming of Jesus in Glory and the rising of the those who died in Christ and our gathering to meet Jesus in the air.The Coming of Jesus in Glory will put an END to that actual age who goes on since more tha 6,000 years and will be replaced by Jesus kingdom on The Earth.
I guessed you missed the scripture that tells us the prophets were UNTIL JOHN. When Jesus was born, a NEW dispensation came: Immanuel.

When Jesus rose from the dead, another dispensation came: the age of Grace. Men were to be justified by faith in the death and burial of our Lord, NOT be keeping the Law.

When the trump sounds and the dead in Christ are raised, another dispensation comes: The day of the Lord.


The Trumpet of Matthew 24 will not be sounded by an angel ,it is different than the 7 trumpets of Revelation and fit perfectly with what Paul describe.

Paul say that Jesus will bring the souls of those who died in Christ (Saints) with Him when He will descend from Heaven .This is the wife being prepared and arrayed in white linen for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. described in Revelation 19:8
Who said? You? When you say, "this is" be prepared to back it up with something more that theory. I thought the righteousness of the saints would be accomplished while alive on earth.


Revelation 19
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

Here is another "is come." When the Greek gives no timing information whatsoever, HOW do we determine timing? It seems all through Revelation the aorist tense verbs are meant to come at the FIRST verses of mention. For this verse, IS COME means right there in verse 19, for no where previous has John talked about the wife being prepared previous to this. She has been ready starting ON EARTH when each was born again.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Do you think that Jesus will marry the souls of those who sleep in Christ (Church) in Heaven or rather that Jesus will bring these souls with Him to be resurrected and reunited with those in Christ still alive and remain ELECT/SAINTS on earth.

You have given two choices, NEITHER of which are truth. The truth is, He brings the spirits of those who have died in Christ so they can rejoin with their newly resurrected bodies: then He takes them to the places prepared, HEAVEN. In Rev. 19 the SCENE is heaven. No amount of rearranging can change that. The marriage and supper will be in heaven. Any other theory is false.


The Marriage occuring when both the resurrected church and the belivers still alive meet Jesus in the clouds in the air unto His Coming after the Tribulation.

No, the marriage will NOT be in the air! Go back and read it again. Throw out your theory that don't fit, and get one that does - WITHOUT rearranging.
 
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BABerean2

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You are almost always mis-speaking. It is this kind of logic that is absolutely necessary to get a posttrib theory to work.

A real bible student cannot ignore the Greek that is behind the English. After all, neither Paul nor John wrote in English.

However, since we are discussing scripture, perhaps you could enlighten us as to WHY you choose to ignore the very same phrase written in chapter 6?

I can answer for you, and save you the trouble: believing that His wrath begins at the 6th seal (The day of His wrath has come) blows your theory right out of the water - so over course you ignore it.......just like you ignore the truth that the marriage and supper come before Jesus descends. That is no problem for you: just REARRANGE until it fits!


Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.





2Ti_4:3
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

2Ti_4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.



Tit 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

.





 
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iamlamad

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Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.





2Ti_4:3
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

2Ti_4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.



Tit 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

Exactly! Posttrib belief is indeed not sound doctrine, since scripture must be rearranged.
Go back again and see EXACTLY what order Rev. 19 is in. It's very simple: you have to rearrange to get your theory to work.

Pretrib does not.
 
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iamlamad

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Do you believe that Adam and Eve were living on the Earth at the same time that the dinosaurs.
There is a very interesting track found in Texas (I think) where a human footprint is formed in rock right over a dinosaur print.
 
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iamlamad

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What I am saying. is that shortly after the 2 witnesses are caught up, the elect (church will be caught up). Those 42 months in Revelation 11:2, when they're completed that's it.
Please show us by scripture what brings you to the belief of the rapture in Rev. 11.
 
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No. I am saying that is it. After Revelation 11:15 the church is caught up. Then comes the wrath of God to those who remain.
Except John tells us that God's wrath really begins at the 6th seal. What do you do with that verse? What do you do with each trumpet judgment that is fulfilling the Day of the Lord verses from the Old Covenant?
 
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