Free will, heaven, and probability

Nihilist Virus

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Like I said, you snipped out the part in bold, and secluded it from the rest of what I said, which was:

To make the choices that are relevant to Heaven. This world is a vale of decision-making during which we decide whether we want to live with God forever or reject Him.

How is that not answering the question when you asked:

"Then why do we have [free will] now?"

I honestly cannot understand how you do not grasp that as answer...how do YOU not get it?


It is not nonsensical. You said I said something I did not:

You made the comment that you can decide something and then it is concrete. Decision made, it's final.

I did not say that. You then went to explain why that would be false, and while that is great and all, is not relevant as I already agree with that and again is not a response to a claim I made.


Wow come on man. I am not going to hold your hand this entire discussion. This premise, is false. Hence, why I am answering from refutation point 3...


Ugh, yeah. I really hope you are not just now getting that.


Yes....really where have you been this entire time?


Right...


Right...


This is the same exact question as earlier, "WHY we have free will now if we won't have it then?" The point of our lives on earth is to decide if we want to be with God or not. Same question, phrased differently.


Yes but you already asked that in the OP, to which I responded to. You need to come up with a more reasonable question-answer dialog than this.


Yes! That is my answer as to why we have free will...how are you not getting this?


I am not sure if you are intentionally actimg incompetent or what...I was saying YOU need to be more clear. I was asking you a question, if you would have noticed the question marks. There was indeed two of them.

All you're doing is dodging my answer, making excuses as to why you won't respond. Anyone can see that.

Free will = ability to make decisions

I'm asking why we have free will

Therefore I'm asking why we have the ability to make decisions

You answer by saying that we have the ability to make decisions so that we can make decisions

You are answering nothing
 
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Nihilist Virus

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My argument: in heaven when we become like God we will have agency but we will not want to sin. Only those who are NOT like God and who have mortal bodies sin.
I am ready for any Christian to defend their Christian faith against this argument.

OK. So why didn't God just make us like this to begin with?

Seriously, did you read the OP?
 
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Alla27

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OK.
OK. So why didn't God just make us like this to begin with?

Seriously, did you read the OP?
Yes, and I answered. He can NOT make us like Him. He just can't. It is NOT possible. That is why we have to choose to become like Him. And this what God CAN do and DOES. He tells us HOW we can become like Him. He tells us what we have TO DO to become like Him.
But I am afraid this post will be deleted before you read it.
 
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Sojourner1

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OK. So why didn't God just make us like this to begin with?

Seriously, did you read the OP?

Non-Christian members may not respond to your arguments against the Christian faith. Only Christian members may defend the Christian faith.
 
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elopez

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Free will = ability to make decision
I would disagree with this over simplified idea of what you think free will is. That may be aside from the point currently though.

I'm asking why we have free will

Therefore I'm asking why we have the ability to make decisions
You already asked that question:

"Then why do we have [free will] now?"

You asked it in your OP. I answered it.

You answer by saying that we have the ability to make decisions so that we can make decisions

You are answering nothing
Still, not what I said. I did say we have the ability to make decisions, but I also said:

This world is a vale of decision-making during which we decide whether we want to live with God forever or reject Him.

I answered your initial question. You are simply refusing to accept that and repeating the same question that I initially answered, and to which you did not address.
 
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Nihilist Virus

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This world is a vale of decision-making during which we decide whether we want to live with God forever or reject Him.

I'm asking you one last time. If you don't want to give me a straight answer, don't bother answering at all.

What is the point of giving us decision making here on earth?
 
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Wgw

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Last chance or you're going on ignore list.

I'm asking about PERIPHERAL things now. You know, the blunders we humans made? Like with the ages of kings and etc. Can Satan or can Satan not match this feat of humanity? CAN he or CAN he NOT corrupt certain things in the Bible like ages of kings? IF NOT, WHY? You yourself say that these things have nothing to do with salvation, so your answers above are irrelevant to the question I've been asking a million times.

Alas this conversation is over; it is not proper in the context of a civil discussion for one participant to treat another in such a manner.

You could benefit by the way from studying the very amiable approach taken by @cloudyday2 in these forums.
 
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elopez

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I'm asking you one last time.
Don't pretend I didn't answer your question. I did. You did not respond to the answer.

What is the point of giving us decision making here on earth?
Let's see how committed you are to this discussion. Let's try a different approach, and revisit this question momentarily.

A direct answer to a why-question is usually defined as a set of propositions that implies the presupposition of the question. What I would like to do is is ask what you believe the presuppositions of your question are. For instance, the question presupposes there is a reason for free will. Another presupposition is that there may be such thing as free will. Yet another, more subtle presupposition, is that we make decisions on earth. If there are any other relevant presuppositions you can think of please share.

Now remember, my response was:
To make the choices that are relevant to Heaven. This world is a vale of decision-making during which we decide whether we want to live with God forever or reject Him. Our will, if we reach Heaven, is "cemented" in the love and awe of God, unable to break away.

Surely that is a set of propositions. And clearly they imply the presuppositions that I outlined of your question. Please, since you are claiming my answer is not an answer, show how that is so. Show how they do not imply the presuppositions of your question.
 
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Nihilist Virus

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A direct answer to a why-question is usually defined as a set of propositions that implies the presupposition of the question.

If I ask why X is X, and you answer with, "Because X is X," then you are in fact implying the presupposition of the question. This is a trivial tautology, proving nothing, clarifying nothing. This is what you have done repeatedly. So yes, technically, you have answered my question. But you have not answered it in earnest and we are done. Please don't reply to me in the future as you are on my ignore list and you will only confuse other participants.
 
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Wgw

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If I ask why X is X, and you answer with, "Because X is X," then you are in fact implying the presupposition of the question. This is a trivial tautology, proving nothing, clarifying nothing. This is what you have done repeatedly. So yes, technically, you have answered my question. But you have not answered it in earnest and we are done. Please don't reply to me in the future as you are on my ignore list and you will only confuse other participants.

At this rate I fear @Nihilist Virus will soon run out of people to debate with.
 
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elopez

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If I ask why X is X,
Well I can only assume by "X is X" you do not mean to invoke the law of identity, in which case this is an odd usage of the term, and if you do, that means you are asking why a subject has it's predicate, akin to asking: "Why is a lawyer a person qualified and authorized to practice law?" Which sure, we can answer, and it would be "They go to school, 'pass the bar', etc, etc." It would be nonsensical to ask, "well why do they want to pass the bar, etc, etc?" which is exactly what you're doing.

and you answer with, "Because X is X," then you are in fact implying the presupposition of the question.
Well look at the answer in the example I gave. A presupposition of the example question is that there are certain tasks to do to be qualified to be a lawyer. The answer pertaining to going to school, passing the bar, are implying that presupposition of the question. Hence, it is answered.

This is a trivial tautology, proving nothing, clarifying nothing. This is what you have done repeatedly.
A rhetorical tautology should not be confused with a tautology in propositional logic, so I take you to mean in the rhetorical sense. In that case, that questions have presuppositions and that to answer a why question you must give statements that imply the presupposition, is no tautology. A tautology is a logical argument constructed in such a way by repeating the same concept or assertion using different phrasing or terminology, which is what you were accusing my answer of. So perhaps you mean my answer is a tautology, which, as explained above, is only due to the nature of your nonsensical question. If my answer is a tautology it is because your question is one as well, which it is.

You first asked why we have free will now per refutation #3. I answered. You then wanted to ask why we have decision making ability on earth. That is like a 5 year old's mind set when asking questions. It's almost as if you would ask, "well why on earth?" next...

So yes, technically, you have answered my question. But you have not answered it in earnest and we are done.
You are being so dishonest about this whole discussion. First, you go to earths end to say I didn't answer your question. After my technical explanation of how I answered your question, you now say I did answer your question, though not sincerely..!!??.. Are you kidding me?? If I wasn't sincere I wouldn't take the time to even go through all of this with you. Based on your refusal to reply to my answer and the way you're shutting down the conversation only shows how much of an understanding you lack of rational discourse. You are so closed minded as to even step out of your bubble and evaluate your question to see if something is wrong with it.

Please don't reply to me in the future as you are on my ignore list and you will only confuse other participants.
No skin off my back. It's not like people are going to want to discuss anything with you anyway from the way you act.
 
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