1 Kings 22:19-23 Interpretations?

His heavenly court proceedings are mentioned in several places. Isaiah 6:8; I Kings 22:19-23; Job 15:8; Jeremiah 23:18, just to name a few. I want to bring to your attention the "we"... "us"

1 Kings 22:19-23 Micaiah continued, “Therefore hear the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on his throne with all the multitudes of heaven standing around him on his right and on his left. 20 And the Lord said, ‘Who will entice Ahab into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?’ “One suggested this, and another that. 21 Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the Lord and said, ‘I will entice him.’ 22 “‘By what means?’ the Lord asked. “‘I will go out and be a deceiving spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,’ he said. “‘You will succeed in enticing him,’ said the Lord. ‘Go and do it.’ 23 “So now the Lord has put a deceiving spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The Lord has decreed a disaster for you.”

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Read the conversation carefully. You will notice that the Lord is asking a question and it is not about deception but about who. I believe it is Satan who volunteers. God takes responsibility for not stopping it before it happens. Here is another example of a heavenly throne conversation.

Is 6:1-8 In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, high and lifted up, and the train of His robe filled the Temple. Above it stood seraphim; each one had six wings: with two he covered his face, with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew… Also, I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?” Then I said, “Here am I! Send me.”

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Notice that God includes angels in the "us". I know this is not from Judaism commentaries but it is my take on it.

It is not unusual to run into a false prophet. Paul did.

They traveled through the whole island until they came to Paphos. There they met a Jewish sorcerer and false prophet named Bar‑Jesus, who was an attendant of the proconsul, Sergius Paulus. The proconsul, an intelligent man, sent for Barnabas and Saul because he wanted to hear the word of God. But Elymas the sorcerer (for that is what his name means) opposed them and tried to turn the proconsul from the faith. Then Saul, who was also called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked straight at Elymas and said, 'You are a child of the devil and an enemy of everything that is right! You are full of all kinds of deceit and trickery. Will you never stop perverting the right ways of the Lord? Now the hand of the Lord is against you. You are going to be blind, and for a time you will be unable to see the light of the sun. Immediately mist and darkness came over him, and he groped about, seeking someone to lead him by the hand. When the proconsul saw what had happened, he believed, for he was amazed at the teaching about the Lord.

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Notice these words were TOLD TO AHAB: 1 Kings 22:20 - ‘Who will entice Ahab into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?’

Entice vs blind/deceive. Ahab was not blinded or deceived. His free will is still intact.

Ahab has full disclosure from a true prophet of YHVH about what will happen, and yet Ahab chooses to defy YHVH.

Ahab has a history of not doing the moral thing or what YHVH wants.

He is already prone to go the wrong direction before he is presented with this choice.

1 Kings 21:13-23 says that Ahab knew the other prophets were lying, and yet Ahab chose their words over the words of a true prophet.

YHVH always gives us an informed choice. Deuteronomy 30:19, Joshua 24:15, Isaiah 7:16

Ignoring YHVH's information and choosing against HIM is foolishness and leads to trouble. Proverbs 1:7, Proverbs 10:23, Proverbs 13:20

Contrast YHVH's ways of giving full disclosure free will choice with the deceptive ways of man and the devil: https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=deceive&qs_version=NKJV

I think what one needs to understand to start with before we read any passage is that G-d gave us free will. This is demonstrated in G-ds Garden. If we use that as our yardstick to measure everything against it all becomes clear.
G-d gave one commandment in the garden, He told them that they could eat of the fruit of all the trees but one. And among those trees was the tree of truth and life. He basically told them to 'choose life' as when the Torah is given- Deuteronomy. He always wants us to choose life, but He gives us the choice to make.

He does not take it away from us, out of our hands but tells us the right one to pick. Remember that old show 'Let's Make a Deal'? You were given a choice between say a box and a curtain, or a large box and a small box. Some might be deceived and think the small box would have something like jewelry in it and choose that, but the big box holds a check for $10,000. And the small box, a can opener. This may sound silly but it shows human understanding which is why King Solomon who was the wisest ever to live because of the wisdom given him by G-d said

"Trust in the L-RD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways submit to him, and he will make your paths straight."

In other words, Trust the L-RD as he know the true right way for us, and if we follow his instructions he will show us what that way is and that way leads to life.

So getting back to the boxes, what we have here is plain deception. The small box was deceiving because it held promises of being something good but wasn't. Same thing with the curtains at the end of the show, they are all the same, just numbered differently. Which to choose to get the best thing? Monty never helps, but if instead of Monty it were G-d he would tell you the right one to choose. Now it would be up to you to listen to him and choose what he said.

But Monty works for the show and he gets paid to misdirect, meaning to not lead them to the most expensive prize but instead to choose the curtain that has a goat chewing on a can behind it.

So you see, Ahab as King knew the way to walk as he had G-ds Torah to guide him, however he did not choose to walk in that way. G-d asked for a volunteer to go and lead him astray, IOW to give him a choice that because he wasn't following G-d would lead him to destruction. Satan volunteered because he is the ultimate expert in leading one astray from the ways of G-d. But the thing is, Ahab still had a choice, no one forced him.

G-d does not take that choice away from us even though he practically begs us to walk in the right way.

This may help a bit too.

In the first century the Rabbi's would teach their students how to pray to G-d, how to come before the King.

Yeshua was asked by his talmidim (students) how to pray.

We all know the 'L-RDs prayer but how many understand it?

These are the most poignant parts in reference to this subject


It's all about His will, not ours, we must give up our will and trust his is the best for us.
Notice the second phrase, 'lead us not into temptation', Here Yeshua is telling us that we can be tempted to sin by deceit, which is by the same one that tempted Eve and Ahab and David, on down the line. In other words we ask G-d to not give us a choice, because we truly believe His is the only right way.

Lulav said:

I think what one needs to understand to start with before we read any passage is that G-d gave us free will.

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The passage in 1 Ki. demonstrates the opposite.

God could have prevented the lying spirit, but actually approved of it and assured it of success, then said "go and do it" (1 Ki. 22:22). He certainly did not make it easier for Ahab, he made it harder for him.

We need to acknowledge what the passage ACTUALLY says before we can begin analyzing and explaining it. We can't begin "explaining" or doing apologetics before actually understanding the verses in question.

Hoshiyya said:

The passage in 1 Ki. demonstrates the opposite.

God could have prevented the lying spirit, but actually permitted it and assured it of success. He certainly did not make it easier for Ahab, he made it harder for him.

We need to acknowledge what the passage ACTUALLY says before we can begin analyzing and explaining it. We can't begin "explaining" or doing apologetics before actually understanding the verses in question.

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I'm thinking about harder vs easier.

Why would you say YHVH made it harder?

The prophet told Ahab everything, so Ahab knew that an enticing spirit was involved.

Wouldn't that be considered easier?

With Cain, YHVH spoke to him before he killed Abel to let him know sin was crouching at his door and desired to have him.

I see that as YHVH making it easier for Cain by explaining the dynamics to him.

Didn't someone say something in this forum a while ago that for free will to be exercised, actual choices have to be offered.

If there is no choice of life vs death, blessing vs curse, then free will has nothing to operate on.

I suppose life would have been super easy if there was never a hasatan, and never any evil to choose in the first place.

If there were only several good choices to choose from, we would be still in Eden enjoying only blessings and uninterrupted full relationship with YHVH.

"Why would you say YHVH made it harder?"

Well he made it harder for Ahab to survive.

He made sure Ahab died. If Hashem decreed the spirits to help Ahab he would have won the battle, or not fought that battle at all, but Hashem sent a spirit to specifically make sure Ahab would "go to his death there".

Hashem says the spirit will succeed, and tells it to go and do this thing.

Speaking to Ahab, verse 23 says "the Lord has decreed a disaster for you."

"The prophet told Ahab everything, so Ahab knew that an enticing spirit was involved.
Wouldn't that be considered easier?"

It didn't make it easier for Ahab to change his mind, since God's spirit was already forcing him into a set course of action. There's many ways to say what I just said in a much less direct way, but why beat around the bush ?

God is great. He can do as he pleases, and if we don't agree with his plan now, we will agree later, when it is all made clear. But I don't spend time apologizing for God's overriding of someone's free will, because who are we to talk back to God ?, as it says in Romans 9:19-21. I don't spend time being an apologist for God, as though he didn't have the right to do whatever he pleases.

Hoshiyya said:

"The prophet told Ahab everything, so Ahab knew that an enticing spirit was involved.
Wouldn't that be considered easier?"

It didn't make it easier for Ahab to change his mind, since God's spirit was already forcing him into a set course of action. There's many ways to say what I just said in a much less direct way, but why beat around the bush ?

God is great. He can do as he pleases, and if we don't agree with his plan now, we will agree later, when it is all made clear. But I don't spend time apologizing for God's overriding of someone's free will, because who are we to talk back to God ?, as it says in Romans 9:19-21.

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Yes, good points, but did HE really override Ahab's will.

Hezekiah had a Prophet give him a messaged ad he repented.

Same with Ninevah.

In both those cases YHVH said xyz will happen, but because they repented and sought the Lord, xyz did not happen.

I believe the same would have been true for Ahab if he would have had a repentant heart.

I'll look for the scriptures for these 2 cases.

That is a good point you made there as well, but here's what I was trying to get at: DOES he have the right to do as he pleases ?

Romans 9:19-21

One of you (eg. Ahab) will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”

But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ”

Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

This passage is not trying to say "God stays within his limits, he knows his boundaries". It is emphasizing his absolute sovereignty, not apologizing for him, nor shifting the responsibility to someone else.

Let's say he didn't override Ahab's free will, nor even influence him. Let's say he didn't make Ahab "pottery for common use". Nevertheless, scripture says he has the right to do so. Hence, to argue against him doing so can have two motivations:

1. questioning whether Hashem did in fact override someone's free will, while acknowledging his right to do so, or
2. questioning, ultimately, Hashem's right to be omnipotent and excercise his omnipotence, which right is defended fiercely by Paul.

Hoshiyya said:

That is a good point you made there as well, but here's what I was trying to get at: DOES he have the right to do as he pleases ?

Romans 9:19-21

One of you (eg. Ahab) will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”

But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ”

Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

This passage is not trying to say "God stays within his limits, he knows his boundaries". It is emphasizing his absolute sovereignty, not apologizing for him, nor shifting the responsibility to someone else.

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I agree.

But yes it is interesting how the rhetoric of the Bible is such that God can, to us at least, sound extremely "final" in his decrees, and yet he inspires or allows or leaves room for repentance that effectively overturns his decrees.

It's not just interesting actually, it is a major intellectual issue. I love to contemplate these questions, but expect the ultimate answer will only be clear in the age to come.

Hoshiyya said:

But yes it is interesting how the rhetoric of the Bible is such that God can, to us at least, sound extremely "final" in his decrees, and yet he inspires or allows or leaves room for repentance that effectively overturns his decrees.

It's not just interesting actually, it is a major intellectual issue. I love to contemplate these questions, but expect the ultimate answer will only be clear in the age to come.

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I find it interesting that the ones God warned already had a history of bad behavior.

Job never got a warning, because he purposed to live righteously.

Enoch walked with God and pleased God.

Abraham was a friend of God.

David was a man after God's own heart.

It seems to me that those who chose to draw near to God didn't have the issues as those who indulged their own desires with no regard for what God said.

The one time David slipped from his usual devotion to God, he created a self-induced mess.

Well observed. Yeshua said it is the sick who need medicine, and warnings and punishments are forms of medicine.

For me, it is taken for granted that God is good and just and that all will make sense in the end, so him "violating our free will" is not an issue for me. The more of God's will is done, and the less of man's will, the better !

If you think about is, is not the goal of free will to live as though you didn't have free will, since one is using the free will to not follow one's own will and instead do his will ?

The goal is "God's will be done", not man's.

It is a thought-provoking subject

Hoshiyya said:

If you think about is, is not the goal of free will to live as though you didn't have free will, since one is using the free will to not follow one's own will and instead do his will ?

The goal is "God's will be done", not man's.

It is a thought-provoking subject

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Amen.

And scripture is full of verses about drawing near to God, rising up early in the morning to seek God, following after God, etc.

IMO, our free will is profoundly influenced for goodness and doing God's will when we take pleasure in increasingly deepening our experience with God.