Dogs only make more dogs - really?

Does dogs exists?


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46AND2

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How can I show you an example of something that is totally fictional. Also, I left off an important logical fallacy, namely Incomplete Comparison. Based on the "nested hierarchy" assumptions we are supposed to believe that animals of different species and genus and families led to one another. The evidence in the real world, which is being totally ignored, is that animals even outside of their own species can't interbreed and produce fertile offspring so there goes climbs up Darwin's ol' "Tree."

I only have so much patience for verbal dodge ball. I asked you to give evidence of nondogs turning into dogs. You evaded that. I answered your Q in spades. You are never going to answer my Qs and we both know that you can't. Why not? Because evolution doesn't have them. Why not? Because it's pseudo science.

I have better things to do with my time than to see you dancing all over the place and making excuses for why you won't answer honest, data based, scientific Qs.

I don't want to continue with you therefore. I left you all the info I did because you have a Heavenly Father Who loves you and wants you to know and love Him too. He's not real happy about you trying to give evolution (as I used to, also) the credit for what HE did. I will be praying for you but I find it very distasteful to have someone trying to get me to jump through pointless hoops and play games that lead nowhere while he evades honest responses to honest Qs.

It is not totally fictional. If you think it is, it demonstrates that you don't understand the concept. There are examples of nested hierarchies which have NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with ancestry. And some which do have to do with ancestry which even you would agree with.
 
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46AND2

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How can I show you an example of something that is totally fictional. Also, I left off an important logical fallacy, namely Incomplete Comparison. Based on the "nested hierarchy" assumptions we are supposed to believe that animals of different species and genus and families led to one another. The evidence in the real world, which is being totally ignored, is that animals even outside of their own species can't interbreed and produce fertile offspring so there goes climbs up Darwin's ol' "Tree."

I only have so much patience for verbal dodge ball. I asked you to give evidence of nondogs turning into dogs. You evaded that. I answered your Q in spades. You are never going to answer my Qs and we both know that you can't. Why not? Because evolution doesn't have them. Why not? Because it's pseudo science.

I have better things to do with my time than to see you dancing all over the place and making excuses for why you won't answer honest, data based, scientific Qs.

I don't want to continue with you therefore. I left you all the info I did because you have a Heavenly Father Who loves you and wants you to know and love Him too. He's not real happy about you trying to give evolution (as I used to, also) the credit for what HE did. I will be praying for you but I find it very distasteful to have someone trying to get me to jump through pointless hoops and play games that lead nowhere while he evades honest responses to honest Qs.

Evolution is not about ONE proof, or ONE observation that someone can show you. It took me many years (I am a former YEC) of study to finally accept that evolution is true. If you really want to see the data, I'll show it to you, but it's really not my fault that you don't have the patience for it. Because you don't really care. You're content in your own little bubble, thinking you know the truth, when in reality, one should never stop seeking the truth, or assume to already have it.
 
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LoricaLady

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46AND2 Let's rehash. You tried to present me as someone who doesn't understand evolution because I didn't see any valid point being made in the OP. As I said then, creationists say dogs stay dogs and that's the truth and the OP didn't refute that truth in anyway. Since you seemed to feel he had made some brilliant parody, I then asked you to show me any evidence that any nondog ever turned into a dog. You have steadfastly refused to answer that Q. You changed the subject. I next addressed a Q of yours, but you would not answer any of mine.

Sorry but saying "Evolution is NOT one proof or ONE observation" is just another evasive excuse. If that's true, then why did you bother to ask me any Qs? You were given a long list of Qs you could have picked from and answered, all of them dealing with the very foundations of evolutionary theory. As with the Q about dogs, you would provide no answer, just played verbal dodge ball. No, I don't have the patience for that game. I've seen it too many times and it never leads anywhere.

Friend, just between yourself and the mirror ask yourself why you can't answer those Qs. (We both know you cannot.)

That's all I feel it would be productive to say.

Blessings and bye.
 
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46AND2

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46AND2 Let's rehash and start over. You tried to present me as someone who doesn't understand evolution because I didn't see any valid point being made in the OP. As I said then, creationists say dogs stay dogs and that's the truth and the OP didn't refute that truth in anyway. Since you seemed to feel he had made some brilliant parody, I then asked you to show me any evidence that any nondog ever turned into a dog. You have steadfastly refused to answer that Q. You changed the subject. I next addressed a Q of yours, but you would not answer any of mine.

Sorry but saying "Evolution is NOT one proof or ONE observation" is just another evasive excuse. If that's true, then why did you bother to ask me any Qs? You were given a long list of Qs you could have picked from and answered, all of them dealing with the very foundations of evolutionary theory. As with the Q about dogs, you would provide no answer, just played verbal dodge ball. No, I don't have the patience for that game. I've seen it too many times and it never leads anywhere.

Friend, just between yourself and the mirror ask yourself why you can't answer those Qs. (We both know you cannot.)

That's all I feel it would be productive to say.

Blessings and bye.

Your questions themselves demonstrate that you do not understand evolution. You ask the wrong questions. And once again, I am not avoiding your questions. If can have enough patience to follow along, your questions will be answered.

Apart from your strawmen questions, you answered a question of mine with a red herring. The question was not whether you agree with nested hierarchy or to discuss the validity of it as it pertains to evolution. It was to provide a real life example of one. I assure you there are many. My question was to find out if you actually understand what one is. As I suspected, you do not.
 
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AV1611VET

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Your questions themselves demonstrate that you do not understand evolution. You ask the wrong questions. And once again, I am not avoiding your questions. If can have enough patience to follow along, your questions will be answered.

Apart from your strawmen questions, you answered a question of mine with a red herring. The question was not whether you agree with nested hierarchy or to discuss the validity of it as it pertains to evolution. It was to provide a real life example of one. I assure you there are many. My question was to find out if you actually understand what one is. As I suspected, you do not.
Back with a vengeance, eh? ;)
 
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AV1611VET

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Lol. Well, I was back, but I want to exit now. "Let those see who have eyes to see and hear who have ears to ear." I leave it with Abba.
Don't go!

46 is actually a nice guy!

(Or used to be! ^_^)
 
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LoricaLady

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Don't go!

46 is actually a nice guy!

(Or used to be! ^_^)
Of course the issue isn't whether or not someone is a nice guy or not. The data is the issue. If someone is a nice guy, or a nice girl, or even if they are not, they need to hear the truth. If they currently want to dance around the truth, then that isn't benefitting anyone and is wasting time. I do, though, always have hope for such people. Definitely. I used to be a vehement defender of evolution until I learned how to do critical thinking and even - gasp! - look outside the box, outside the matrix. If we have a false paradigm - some would call it brainwashing - already in place in our minds, it can take time to unlearn what is not true and find out what really is true, scientific, and logical.
 
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46AND2

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Back with a vengeance, eh? ;)

Just being honest. She is the one who started with the "I've debunked the leading authors of evolutionary arguments" bravado. She sees my tactics as evasion, when in reality I just want her to think about evolution in a different way, because her whole vision of the subject is flawed at a fundamental level. She hasn't studied evolution, she has studied apologists' rebuttals against evolution, which is a far different thing.

If I don't spoon feed her the answers, then she has to come up with them herself, and it has more impact. Clearly she is not willing to do that, for reasons I can only speculate.

I haven't been mean, despite her condescending tone toward me. I have simply told her what she doesn't understand.

In fairness, though, I can see how a couple of my comments come across as snippy, and I do apologize for that. I'll do a better job of proofreading for likability. ^_^
 
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46AND2

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Of course the issue isn't whether or not someone is a nice guy or not. The data is the issue. If someone is a nice guy, or a nice girl, or even if they are not, they need to hear the truth. If they currently want to dance around the truth, then that isn't benefitting anyone and is wasting time. I do, though, always have hope for such people. Definitely. I used to be a vehement defender of evolution until I learned how to do critical thinking and even - gasp! - look outside the box, outside the matrix. If we have a false paradigm - some would call it brainwashing - already in place in our minds, it can take time to unlearn what is not true and find out what really is true, scientific, and logical.

I assure you that I don't dance around when it comes to searching for the truth. My deconversion was a painful, decade long process, and I promise you that I take it seriously. (To be clear, though, evolution had nothing to do with my loss of faith).

I do have the answers to your questions, but they will be meaningless unless I can make sure that we find some common ground when it comes to certain definitions. If I jumped straight into answering your questions, it is clear that you would dismiss them out of hand, since we don't have a common understanding about these key terms. I'd be talking right past you.
 
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AV1611VET

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In fairness, though, I can see how a couple of my comments come across as snippy, and I do apologize for that. I'll do a better job of proofreading for likability. ^_^
It's comments like this that I'm glad you're back!

I pray you have a HAPPY NEW YEAR!
 
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46AND2

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It's called recessive traits. The DNA is vast and can create quite a variety.

But Justa quite clearly stated that Huskies can only produce Huskies, Mastiffs only Mastiffs, and the only way to get a different kind is to crossbreed.
 
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mickiio

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But Justa quite clearly stated that Huskies can only produce Huskies, Mastiffs only Mastiffs, and the only way to get a different kind is to crossbreed.
That's right. The animals on the Ark had variants. Huskies have had the variants bred out. If the blue squares only breed with the blue squares you will only get blue squares. The only way you can get a different variant again is to breed it back in.


 
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46AND2

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That's right. The animals on the Ark had variants. Huskies have had the variants bred out. If the blue squares only breed with the blue squares you will only get blue squares. The only way you can get a different variant again is to breed it back in.



Wow. That is not how zygosity works.
 
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LoricaLady

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I assure you that I don't dance around when it comes to searching for the truth. My deconversion was a painful, decade long process, and I promise you that I take it seriously. (To be clear, though, evolution had nothing to do with my loss of faith).

I do have the answers to your questions, but they will be meaningless unless I can make sure that we find some common ground when it comes to certain definitions. If I jumped straight into answering your questions, it is clear that you would dismiss them out of hand, since we don't have a common understanding about these key terms. I'd be talking right past you.

I'm not buying any verbal baloney nor will I waste my time playing pointless games. As I said, Darwin devotees always evade answering hard core, data based Qs as you have done from the start by refusing to give me evidence that dogs came from nondogs. They always want to change the subject to something else, as you have done. They often have rather "creative", though never credible, excuses for their evasions, like yours. We both know you can't answer those Qs. Not one of them. I hope and pray you will stop playing games and see the truth.

Another pattern I've noticed with evo fans is that they always seem to want to be sure they get the last word, leave the last post. You can have it on this string, with me, my friend. But you will be getting the 2nd to the last word in reality because the truth always gets the very last word. It's smart to be on the side of the truth as, whether anyone wants to believe it or not, we will be held accountable for what we did with the truth.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Do you really not see what the ramifications of your idea are? If Husky has to pair with Mastiff to get Chinook, how did Husky, Mastiff, or Chinook ever come into being if all you ever started with was NOAH'S POODLES?

No, you simply do not want to accept the ramifications. Half of the genome was in the female and half in the male.

"24For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh."

When a man and woman mate - their genomes are reunited and another creature is born.

You are simply refusing to accept what a perfect genome separated into two would be capable of. If the first genome had the combinations A, B, C and D within it and was separated into A, C in one and B, D in the other, then the possible combinations are endless. A+B=E, A+D=F, C+B=G, C+D=H. And on and on and on....

On the other hand you want us all to start with A and then magically pretend we get B, let alone C, D, E, etc.

So your argument is that starting with a perfect genome with all combinations possible can not produce what we see, while starting with a simple genome with no combinations possible we got to the complexity that we see?

I'm still waiting for you to show me that a bacteria has become anything other than what it was since it never exchanges genomes with anything? Your E coli experiments falsified your beliefs. After billions of mutations and billions of generations they remained E coli. You couldn't even make it to different infraspecific taxa within the bacteria species. Your entire belief system is based upon pure fantasy.

Only by starting with a perfect genome can all the diversity we see today be explained.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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You claim you so called dog "just look different". If so called dogs just looked different then a Irish setter should be able to give birth to a Golden Retriever, but that has never happen. Irish setter and Golden just don't look different, they are not even the same! They are different kinds!

Where is your evidence? Can you show me your Canine?
View attachment 164603

Which one is it?

Under your reasoning then an African should be able to give birth to an Asian without mating with anything but an African.

So then why are you not arguing every race of human is a different species?

Ahhhhhh, suddenly you will turn 360 degrees and now tell us why humans are the same species - even if you just argued they were different species without knowing it. You just didn't expect or think about applying your same argument to humans, because suddenly we are special and not subject to the same reasoning applied to animals - even if we are just animals in evolution theory.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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It is not totally fictional. If you think it is, it demonstrates that you don't understand the concept. There are examples of nested hierarchies which have NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with ancestry. And some which do have to do with ancestry which even you would agree with.

Name one hierarchy in the OBSERVATIONAL world that fits your ideas? And no, I am not interested in hearing about one billions of years ago. If you call them separate species it is simply because you classify them wrong.

You made the claim now show it.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Evolution is not about ONE proof, or ONE observation that someone can show you. It took me many years (I am a former YEC) of study to finally accept that evolution is true. If you really want to see the data, I'll show it to you, but it's really not my fault that you don't have the patience for it. Because you don't really care. You're content in your own little bubble, thinking you know the truth, when in reality, one should never stop seeking the truth, or assume to already have it.


And every one of those requires you to ignore the observational data. You got no proof but Fairie Dust.

Asian mates with Asian and produces ONLY Asian. African mates with African and produces ONLY African. Only when Asian mates with African does a new infraspecific taxa (Afro-Asian) come into existence.

Husky mates with Husky and produces ONLY Husky. Mastiff mates with Mastiff and produces ONLY Mastiff. Only when Husky mates with Mastiff does a new infraspecific taxa (Chinook) come into existence.

No evolution was involved. The Asian remained Asian, the African remained African. The Husky remained Husky, the Mastiff remained Mastiff.

No missing links between the different infraspecific taxa are missing.

It's all Fairie Dust. Your confused because of your exact words: "I am a former YEC"

Because people mistranslated the second word of the second verse of the Bible, you couldn't get your beliefs to match. hayah: to fall out, come to pass, become, be.

The earth "became" desolate and Waste.... It was not made that way. It means to fall out or become, from a previous state. It did not become formless and void from a state of formless and void. It became desolate and waste from a state of pre-existing life. There have been 6 creations and 5 destructions. Man was part of the sixth. The earth is ancient - man is young. That darkness was the extinction of the dinosaurs.
 
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