The non-war on Christmas thread

rjs330 · Dec 25, 2015

DaisyDay said:
Once again you are derailing this thread with your rantings.
Of course it can. That is mostly paranoia and rousing the rabble with nonsense.

Any student can pray in school should he or she choose to. Students have that right. Schools do not have the right to coerce prayer on students, however. And it's been a mixed bag as to who has taken the matter to court.

Evidence, please. Your mere say-so does count.
Are you talking about the right to discriminate that progressives are taking away from businesses, Christian and otherwise? If so, well, that's a good thing.

Again, that's mixed. Most progressives just want other groups included - nondiscrimination. Some atheists prefer not to have their tax dollars go to support a religion that excludes them, some don't care.

Yeah, too much right-wing propaganda.

And you are willing to derail a thread that is about the non-war on Christmas even though there are plenty of other venues for this hackneyed diatribe.

Oh, and Merry Christmas - Peace on Earth, Good Will towards Man.

I didn't detail this thread because there IS a war on Christmas. I just brought about the point that it is an example of the broader war on Christianity. If you need me to cite all the sources,for my examples I can but quite frankly if you have no clue and need me to point them out you just haven't been paying attention.

DaisyDay said:
Once again you are derailing this thread with your rantings.
Of course it can. That is mostly paranoia and rousing the rabble with nonsense.

Any student can pray in school should he or she choose to. Students have that right. Schools do not have the right to coerce prayer on students, however. And it's been a mixed bag as to who has taken the matter to court.

Evidence, please. Your mere say-so does count.
Are you talking about the right to discriminate that progressives are taking away from businesses, Christian and otherwise? If so, well, that's a good thing.

Again, that's mixed. Most progressives just want other groups included - nondiscrimination. Some atheists prefer not to have their tax dollars go to support a religion that excludes them, some don't care.

Yeah, too much right-wing propaganda.

And you are willing to derail a thread that is about the non-war on Christmas even though there are plenty of other venues for this hackneyed diatribe.

Oh, and Merry Christmas - Peace on Earth, Good Will towards Man.

I didn't detail this thread because there IS a war on Christmas. I just brought about the point that it is an example of the broader war on Christianity. If you need me to cite all the sources,for my examples I can but quite frankly if you have no clue and need me to point them out you just haven't been paying attention. You aren't seriously denying that the things I've mentioned haven't occured are you? You've never heard of a group suing or threatening to sue over nativity scenes in the public square or Christian stuff in schools? Of you haven't then I suggest you do some research you may find it enlightening. But then again you may not. But at least you'll know I'm telling the truth.

AV1611VET · Dec 25, 2015

Willtor said:
Merry Christmas, everybody!

Merry Christmas, Willtor! :wave:

DaisyDay · Dec 25, 2015

rjs330 said:
I didn't detail this thread because there IS a war on Christmas. I just brought about the point that it is an example of the broader war on Christianity. If you need me to cite all the sources,for my examples I can but quite frankly if you have no clue and need me to point them out you just haven't been paying attention.

I didn't detail this thread because there IS a war on Christmas. I just brought about the point that it is an example of the broader war on Christianity. If you need me to cite all the sources,for my examples I can but quite frankly if you have no clue and need me to point them out you just haven't been paying attention. You aren't seriously denying that the things I've mentioned haven't occured are you? You've never heard of a group suing or threatening to sue over nativity scenes in the public square or Christian stuff in schools? Of you haven't then I suggest you do some research you may find it enlightening. But then again you may not. But at least you'll know I'm telling the truth.

Merry Christmas, rjs330!

Willtor · Dec 25, 2015

rjs330 said:
That's where you are incorrect. I believe in freedom of religion and not freedom from religion. I wouldn't have a problem with a Buddha picture or even Muslims praying in school. As a conservative Christian I do not believe in squashing religion. And like Thomas Jefferson I do not believe in a state religion or any law requiring people to worship a certain way. Unlike the progressive movement and the radical athiests who do want to squash the free expression of Christianity.

I prayed in school from elementary through high school -- all public schools in the Boston area (minus a year abroad... I prayed there, too, but...). Nobody ever tried to stop me. This was in the 1980's and 1990's.

The "bans" of praying in school are not actual bans. The school is prohibited from directing children to pray. But if a child chooses to pray of his or her own accord, there's no law against that. In fact, if the school tries to stop it, the law is on the side of the child.

rjs330 · Dec 28, 2015

Willtor said:
I prayed in school from elementary through high school -- all public schools in the Boston area (minus a year abroad... I prayed there, too, but...). Nobody ever tried to stop me. This was in the 1980's and 1990's.

The "bans" of praying in school are not actual bans. The school is prohibited from directing children to pray. But if a child chooses to pray of his or her own accord, there's no law against that. In fact, if the school tries to stop it, the law is on the side of the child.

Yes the kids can pray in school. I understand that. However the teachers cannot pray

Willtor said:
I prayed in school from elementary through high school -- all public schools in the Boston area (minus a year abroad... I prayed there, too, but...). Nobody ever tried to stop me. This was in the 1980's and 1990's.

The "bans" of praying in school are not actual bans. The school is prohibited from directing children to pray. But if a child chooses to pray of his or her own accord, there's no law against that. In fact, if the school tries to stop it, the law is on the side of the child.

Yes the kids can pray in school. I understand that. However the teachers cannot pray with the kids on a voluntary basis and there,are plenty,examples of schools being sued by students who have been told they cannot pray in school. Right now there is a football coach who,has been told he cannot,pray after football games publicly. Even though he has not told the,players they have to participate. He does not do it in the locker room, but does it in the field after The game away from the players. The ban on public school prayer is not constitutional. Have you not read the constitution? The ban was not based on the consitution but on the writings of Jefferson, who I agree with! The separation of church and state was not based on no religion in public but on state religion. Jefferson believed that state organised and controlled religion was bad. Because state run religion controls what people are allowed to believe and how people are allowed to worship. Thus congress shall,make no law prohibiting religion and the free excersize thereof. When teachers coaches are banned from leading voluntary prayer their rights are being violated. You have fallen into the progressive trap that seeks to wipe out our history.

Willtor · Dec 28, 2015

rjs330 said:
Yes the kids can pray in school. I understand that. However the teachers cannot pray

Yes the kids can pray in school. I understand that. However the teachers cannot pray with the kids on a voluntary basis and there,are plenty,examples of schools being sued by students who have been told they cannot pray in school. Right now there is a football coach who,has been told he cannot,pray after football games publicly. Even though he has not told the,players they have to participate. He does not do it in the locker room, but does it in the field after The game away from the players. The ban on public school prayer is not constitutional. Have you not read the constitution? The ban was not based on the consitution but on the writings of Jefferson, who I agree with! The separation of church and state was not based on no religion in public but on state religion. Jefferson believed that state organised and controlled religion was bad. Because state run religion controls what people are allowed to believe and how people are allowed to worship. Thus congress shall,make no law prohibiting religion and the free excersize thereof. When teachers coaches are banned from leading voluntary prayer their rights are being violated. You have fallen into the progressive trap that seeks to wipe out our history.

If it's as clear cut as you say, then I definitely agree it's wrong and an infringement of this coach's rights. I'd like a bit more data, though, before I can join your side. Do you have a couple of citations for this story?

TLK Valentine · Dec 28, 2015

rjs330 said:
Yes the kids can pray in school. I understand that. However the teachers cannot pray

The teachers cannot lead the students in prayer.

Yes the kids can pray in school. I understand that. However the teachers cannot pray with the kids on a voluntary basis

Because what a teacher tells a student to do is rarely considered "voluntary."

and there,are plenty,examples of schools being sued by students who have been told they cannot pray in school.

And the students won.

Right now there is a football coach who,has been told he cannot,pray after football games publicly. Even though he has not told the,players they have to participate. He does not do it in the locker room, but does it in the field after The game away from the players. The ban on public school prayer is not constitutional. Have you not read the constitution? The ban was not based on the consitution but on the writings of Jefferson, who I agree with! The separation of church and state was not based on no religion in public but on state religion.

So you agree that no agency of the state should be promoting a religion on the people, correct?

What do you think a public school is?

Jefferson believed that state organised and controlled religion was bad. Because state run religion controls what people are allowed to believe and how people are allowed to worship.

Jefferson was correct -- so what makes a school a better choice than the state?

Thus congress shall,make no law prohibiting religion and the free excersize thereof. When teachers coaches are banned from leading voluntary prayer their rights are being violated. You have fallen into the progressive trap that seeks to wipe out our history.

If the coach orders his team to pray, is it really "voluntary"? Will players who refuse to participate really suffer no consequences?

Vylo · Dec 28, 2015

Man this war on Christmas was so intense. People wished me a Merry Christmas and I wished them one back. The bloodshed was incredible.

cow451 · Dec 28, 2015

Vylo said:
Man this war on Christmas was so intense. People wished me a Merry Christmas and I wished them one back. The bloodshed was incredible.

Unlike the Carolina Panthers, Christmas remains undefeated.

Willtor · Dec 28, 2015

Vylo said:
Man this war on Christmas was so intense. People wished me a Merry Christmas and I wished them one back. The bloodshed was incredible.

We made Mexican food for Christmas and I got a really nice shirt.

The streets ran red with the blood of the fallen.

Belk · Dec 29, 2015

Willtor said:
We made Mexican food for Christmas and I got a really nice shirt.

The streets ran red with the blood of the fallen.

With hot Coca afterwards.

Willtor · Dec 29, 2015

Belk said:
With hot Coca afterwards.

He would be much more peaceful if he had gotten a shirt for Christmas, too.

DaisyDay · Dec 30, 2015

There was a tree with lights, ornaments and a star, in my house for the first time in years. There were presents under it. Carols played on the cd player. I think Christmas is gaining!

At work, several people mentioned having gone to Christmas choir and mass. Oh the humanity!

rjs330 · Dec 31, 2015

TLK Valentine said:
The teachers cannot lead the students in prayer.

Because what a teacher tells a student to do is rarely considered "voluntary."

And the students won.

So you agree that no agency of the state should be promoting a religion on the people, correct?

What do you think a public school is?

Jefferson was correct -- so what makes a school a better choice than the state?

If the coach orders his team to pray, is it really "voluntary"? Will players who refuse to participate really suffer no consequences?

No I disagree. I think an agent of the state CAN and should be able to promote a religion of they want as long as there is voluntary participation by the public be they students or not. It's called freedom OF religion. So if a teacher wanted to pray a pagan prayer to the God of goats before class I say more power to them as long as the kids don't have to participate. If my kid came home and said my teacher prayed to the God of goats I would teach him about how the God of goats is a false God and and that he should do spiritual warfare and pray against it.

TLK Valentine said:
The teachers cannot lead the students in prayer.

Because what a teacher tells a student to do is rarely considered "voluntary."

And the students won.

So you agree that no agency of the state should be promoting a religion on the people, correct?

What do you think a public school is?

Jefferson was correct -- so what makes a school a better choice than the state?

If the coach orders his team to pray, is it really "voluntary"? Will players who refuse to participate really suffer no consequences?

No I disagree. I think an agent of the state CAN and should be able to promote a religion of they want as long as there is voluntary participation by the public be they students or not. It's called freedom OF religion. So if a teacher wanted to pray a pagan prayer to the God of goats before class I say more power to them as long as the kids don't have to participate. If my kid came home and said my teacher prayed to the God of goats I would teach him about how the God of goats is a false God and and that he should do spiritual warfare and pray against it. If I can't teach my kid to be strong in his faith I'm in trouble. I welcome all faiths including Islam as long as they don't teach violence and killing to promote their faith.

And here's a link for the coach who's in trouble.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...lmlQdpr81HhQ&sig2=_MDI1ez7ZV1uEtuMVcfQ0A/URL]

cow451 · Dec 31, 2015

rjs330 said:
No I disagree. I think an agent of the state CAN and should be able to promote a religion of they want as long as there is voluntary participation by the public be they students or not. It's called freedom OF religion. So if a teacher wanted to pray a pagan prayer to the God of goats before class I say more power to them as long as the kids don't have to participate. If my kid came home and said my teacher prayed to the God of goats I would teach him about how the God of goats is a false God and and that he should do spiritual warfare and pray against it.

No I disagree. I think an agent of the state CAN and should be able to promote a religion of they want as long as there is voluntary participation by the public be they students or not. It's called freedom OF religion. So if a teacher wanted to pray a pagan prayer to the God of goats before class I say more power to them as long as the kids don't have to participate. If my kid came home and said my teacher prayed to the God of goats I would teach him about how the God of goats is a false God and and that he should do spiritual warfare and pray against it. If I can't teach my kid to be strong in his faith I'm in trouble. I welcome all faiths including Islam as long as they don't teach violence and killing to promote their faith.

And here's a link for the coach who's in trouble.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...lmlQdpr81HhQ&sig2=_MDI1ez7ZV1uEtuMVcfQ0A/URL]

The "state" and its representatives have authority and may not promote a religious belief while acting in their official roles. Teachers, coaches, etc. are authority figures representing the "state". Therefore, they may not promote a religion.

loveofourlord · Dec 31, 2015

Anyone else find it funny how many complain about war on Christmas and attack stores for not being Christmasy enough, but are also so often those that defend the rights of said buisnesses to descriminate?

rjs330 · Jan 2, 2016

cow451 said:
The "state" and its representatives have authority and may not promote a religious belief while acting in their official roles. Teachers, coaches, etc. are authority figures representing the "state". Therefore, they may not promote a religion.

Yep that's the way it is now, but it's unconstitutional. The supreme courts ruling is wrong and it is based upon progressive thought of squashing religious freedom. And this thought has found its way into the fabric of this society. Thus the war on Christmas which is a smaller microcosm of the war on Christianity being waged by the progressives and radical athiests.

Deviant Writer · Jan 2, 2016

So the broader War on Christianity is just Christians being told that they have to mind time and place with regards to their proselytizing just like everybody else.

"What's that? I can't all of a sudden lead a prayer circle or whatever in my class when I'm supposed to be teaching them math?....which is what I'm paid to do in the first place?

blueapplepaste · Jan 2, 2016

rjs330 said:
Yep that's the way it is now, but it's unconstitutional. The supreme courts ruling is wrong and it is based upon progressive thought of squashing religious freedom. And this thought has found its way into the fabric of this society. Thus the war on Christmas which is a smaller microcosm of the war on Christianity being waged by the progressives and radical athiests.

Emphasis mine.

No freedoms have been squashed. You can still pray. You can still celebrate Christmas and all of the other religious holidays. There is legitimate religious persecution happening in the world, and listening to Christians in this country scream persecution because of a red cup or "happy holidays" is nauseating and minimizes and diminishes those who truly are being persecuted for being Christian.

And sorry, it's completely constitutional. SCOTUS has ruled on it and I'll take their judgement on what is and isn't constitutional over a random internet poster.

ecco · Jan 3, 2016

cow451 said: ↑
The "state" and its representatives have authority and may not promote a religious belief while acting in their official roles. Teachers, coaches, etc. are authority figures representing the "state". Therefore, they may not promote a religion.

rjs330 said:
Yep that's the way it is now, but it's unconstitutional. The supreme courts ruling is wrong and it is based upon progressive thought of squashing religious freedom. And this thought has found its way into the fabric of this society. Thus the war on Christmas which is a smaller microcosm of the war on Christianity being waged by the progressives and radical athiests.

You have yet to show how eliminating prayer in schools is squashing religious freedom.

Also, could you show the difference between atheists and radical atheists.

The non-war on Christmas thread

Well-Known Member

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE

I Did Nothing Wrong!! ~~Team Deep State

Not just any Willtor... The Mighty Willtor

Well-Known Member

Not just any Willtor... The Mighty Willtor

I've already read the books you want burned.

Stick with the King!

Standing with Ukraine.

Not just any Willtor... The Mighty Willtor

Senior Member

Not just any Willtor... The Mighty Willtor

I Did Nothing Wrong!! ~~Team Deep State

Well-Known Member

Standing with Ukraine.

Newbie

Well-Known Member

I choose the World. I choose the Flesh.

the purpose of life is a life of purpose

Poster

Similar threads