Is Deuteronomy 18 about prophet Muhammad ? Was he like prophet Moses ?

LoAmmi said:

How are the ancestors of the Jews responsible for Able's death? Not even getting into the Zechariah thing since most translations have the wrong Zechariah listed. To the point though, even if you take Jewish tradition into account, only a small number of prophets have their deaths recorded in any way that could be considered murder. The idea that we killed our prophets is an accusation without backing.

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Jeremiah 26:20-23, 1 Kings 19:10
As for Able - Cain the first murderer was a son of Adam. We are all descendants of Adam. We are all sinners. What The Lord said to 'His' people at that time He says to all who 'murder' his prophets.
At the crucifixion that generation cried out as Christ predicted - “His blood be on us and on our children.”
Matthew 27
24 When Pilate saw that he could not prevail at all, but rather that a tumult was rising, he took water and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, “I am innocent of the blood of this just Person. You see to it.”
25 And all the people answered and said, “His blood be on us and on our children.”
Go well
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afishamongmany said:

Jeremiah 26:20-23, 1 Kings 19:10
As for Able - Cain the first murderer was a son of Adam. We are all descendants of Adam. We are all sinners. What The Lord said to 'His' people at that time He says to all who 'murder' his prophets.
At the crucifixion that generation cried out as Christ predicted - “His blood be on us and on our children.”
Matthew 27
24 When Pilate saw that he could not prevail at all, but rather that a tumult was rising, he took water and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, “I am innocent of the blood of this just Person. You see to it.”
25 And all the people answered and said, “His blood be on us and on our children.”
Go well
><>

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I figured you would just say that we're all responsible because it's a really easy cop out from what is said. The accusation was at the Jewish people, not the world in general.

The two examples you gave are kings going after prophets. I'm not a king nor are most people. How are we responsible for the actions of ancient kings that did evil things?

I can't fathom any instance in the history of the human race where people wished for the blood of someone they were killing to be on their children.

afishamongmany said:

Hello Danny,
I'm wondering why you're asking me this question?
The Lord Jesus himself says in the Gospel of Luke chpt 11 (also Matthew 23:35)
46 And He said, “Woe to you also, lawyers! For you load men with burdens hard to bear, and you yourselves do not touch the burdens with one of your fingers. 47 Woe to you! For you build the tombs of the prophets, and your fathers killed them. 48 In fact, you bear witness that you approve the deeds of your fathers; for they indeed killed them, and you build their tombs. 49 Therefore the wisdom of God also said, ‘I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they will kill and persecute,’ 50 that the blood of all the prophets which was shed from the foundation of the world may be required of this generation, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah who perished between the altar and the temple.
Could come up with other names if I wanted to make a project of it but might be quicker to ask you
><>

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I asked because the accusation is malicious and untrue. And repeated by Paul. As it was pointed out, the accuser got the wrong Zechariah- a mistake of 500 years. Zechariah ben Yehoida was murdered on the order of King Yoash around 900 BCE. Zechariah ben Berechyah lived in the 4th century BCE and died of natural causes. Accusing us of murdering Abel is simply ridiculous.

Lo Ammi and Danny Ski, Shalom to both of you this day,
“ it's a really easy cop out”
“Cop out” twas not and certainly not “really easy”. Lite? yea I'd except that. It was a squeezed in, end of day post.

The significance of blood and of blood guilt is deep and difficult for all of us to grasp. I sometimes think that angels would fear to tread on tiptoe where we jump around with our flat feet.
That part of God's word that you accept as being authoritative speaks plainly of shared blood guilt. How do you understand what God says through His prophet Isaiah in chapter 1 verses 10-15, which end, “Your hands are full of blood.” ? When by another of His prophets, Joel, He says in chapter 3 verse 21, “ … I will acquit them of blood guilt whom I had not acquitted ...”?
We all understand (at least we should) that just quoting scriptures in isolation does not constitute serious Bible study or in anyway deals adequately with the subject but surely these two references together with the previously given OT references, at least should take you beyond the auto-defense response of , 'A malicious accusation, this has nothing to do with us!' The 'accusation' is being made by the God you claim to worship. Far better try to understand and come into agreement with Ha Shem, than to live in denial.
Do I fully understand, shared blood guilt, or shared shame (look at Daniel's prayer chpt 9, it is all, we have sinned, forgive us, our inequities) or the full significance of blood in God's economy? No, but because I accept the authority of both OT and NT at least I understand that these things are real and important and concern all mankind, not just the physical descendants of Israel.
Of course not every single person, neither of the crowd nor of the jewish leaders, wanted Jesus dead or cried, “His blood be upon us ...” but The Lord still spoke collectively, “Fill up then, the measure of your father's guilt.”, “... that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth...” Matthew 23.
Crucially I understand that not only does shed blood bring God's just retribution but in God's sight it also brings atonement and redemption. Thus The Lamb without spot or blemish prayed as He bled, “Father forgive them ...”.

As for which Zechariah? I'm happy to go with the Zechariah ben Berechyah. What sources are there telling us that he died of natural causes? This point is only important if one wanted to diminish the authority of Bible. Now why should anyone want to do that?

Go well, tread lightly,
><>

Your hands are full of blood is a reference to the fact that they were going though the motions of sacrifice but not having the internal change that was required for it to be correct. It was not some kind of magic spell that instantly did anything just by spilling animal's blood. The most important part was the internal change. Making it about some kind of blood economy is actually going against the Tanach as blood wasn't the most important part. In fact, in many aspects it was the LEAST important part as people are seen to be forgiven of sins with no bloodshed whatsoever.

The phrase "blood guilt" is not in Joel 3 (Joel 4 in a Jewish Bible). You're adding the word "guilt".

HaShem does hold the Jewish people collectively responsible for the collective sins of the people. But I am not responsible for Danny's sins individually (no offense intended). He is responsible for his own sin. So, yes, we have sinned and we have made mistakes, collectively, but that doesn't mean I'm responsible in any way for someone else's sins.

afishamongmany said:

As for which Zechariah? I'm happy to go with the Zechariah ben Berechyah. What sources are there telling us that he died of natural causes? This point is only important if one wanted to diminish the authority of Bible. Now why should anyone want to do that?

Go well, tread lightly,
><>

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The point is that valuing precision is enhancing the authority of the Bible. You cannot just pick and chose. It's either the right Zechariah or not. We are either responsible for the death of Abel or not. Either the Romans killed your god or we did. Sooner or later a choice has to be made. I, based on the text, know which Zechariah was murdered by a king, I know that a Jew did not kill Abel, and I am sure that the Romans crucified Jesus.
As for the reason why I'm certain that the Prophet Zechariah died of natural causes. Zechariah was a Jewish prophet, sent to us. We are a separate religion and, as such, we have our own sources. The Talmud records, three times, that Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi that "they died"(מֵֽתוּ) and not that they were killed(נֶהֶרְגוּ). Since this does not contradict the Biblical narrative, I have no reason to dismiss it.

Limo said:

As a Jew,How you're sure that Romans crucified Jesus? What sources you really on ?

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If he was crucified, he was not crucified by us. Our law permitted four different methods of execution. Crucifixion was not one of them, nor anybody can be brought to trial, condemned and executed in a time frame provided by the authors of the Greek Testament. And, of course, Mark wrote that the charge was blasphemy. That charge was punishable by stoning.

He was turned over to Pilate who "interviewed" Him then Pilate basically accused Him being the "king of the Jews" and the crowd chose Barabbas over Jesus.. and Pilate asked the crowd what they should do to Him and they responded "Crucify Him".

See:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark 15&version=NIV
So Jesus was basically accused of treason and crucified... a Roman form of execution.

"The book was probably written c.AD 66–70"

Limo said:

Following are 3 verses in Deuteronomy :-

1. Deuteronomy 18:15 “The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own brothers. You must listen to him."
2. Deuteronomy 18:18 " I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers. I will put My words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him.."
3. Deuteronomy 34:10 "No prophet ever rose again in Israel like Moses, whom the LORD knew with such great intimacy. ". clearly says that there is no prophet like Moses in Israel

What are these verses are saying:-
- Deuteronomy 18:15 Moses is commanding/instructing all Israels people, saying "from your brothers" means not Israeli but other people

- Deuteronomy 18:18 Allah is commanding/instructing Moses is , saying "from their brothers" means not Israels but other people, by any-mean the prophet is not Jacob's decedent

- Prophet Muhammed's tribe Quresh are descendants of Ismail, Jews are descendants of Isaac. Jews and Arabs are cousins. Cousins are called brothers in Middle East traditions till date

- Prophet Mohamed is the only prophet from Arabs

- The prophet Mohamed is like Moses by the following attributes:-
- Prophet Moses is a human only from human father and mother, So do prophet Mohamed
- Prophet Moses talked to Allah directly, So do prophet Mohamed in Israa-Merage trip
- Prophet Moses Has a book (Torah), So do prophet Mohamed (Qutan)
- Prophet Moses was a governor/like a king, So do prophet Mohamed
- Prophet Moses was a fighter used to do wars, So do prophet Mohamed
- Prophet Moses achieved/completed his message/mission, So do prophet Mohamed
- Prophet Moses has a complete covenant and applied judge system, So do prophet Mohamed
- Prophet Moses died normally, So do prophet Mohamed

Summary :
- Allah talked to Moses, told the prophet is from "Their Brothers", All Israelis tribes are meant by the word "Their", Then prophet is out of Jacob decedents
- Moses talked to all Israelis tribes , told the prophet is from "Your Brothers", Then prophet is out of Jacob decedents
- Allah also told, No prophet is like Moses from Israelis people
- There are many common attributes for the prophetical life cycle perceptive

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Hello Limo,

No, Mohammed is not the Prophet to come mentioned in Deuteronomy 18. We know this because Peter, while preaching in Solomon's Portico, referred to Jesus as being the fulfillment of that Scripture (as seen in the Book of Acts, Chapter 3:11-26, specifically referenced in verses 22 and 23).

Peace
2PhiloVoid

Limo said:

Hello 2PhiloVoid
I see, It's written there.The problem is that Jesus was not a prophet like Moses according to your belief. Jesus should be Son of God (as per your belief) which is much better than being a prophet.
Regards

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Limo,

I know this may not be the easiest thing to understand, but Christians essentially believe that Jesus fulfilled multiple roles and prophetic expectations, as would be suitable for one who is uniquely divine and THE Son of God, rather than simply A metaphorical son of god.

Whether people accept it or not, this is what we believe Jesus to be. And the above citation by Peter the Apostle, who was specifically chosen by Jesus Christ Himself, tells us the truth about Jesus' significance.

Also, in the same Book of Acts, Stephen the Martyr, while preaching, also references Deuteronomy 18 (in Acts 7:37), with the context pointing to Jesus. Stephen also alludes to the fact that "the Just One" was foretold to come forth among the Jewish people; that "Just One" was Jesus, whom Stephen then states was betrayed and murdered (in Acts 7:51-53).

Jesus was a Prophet like Moses; it is through Him that a Covenant of God is enacted (that is, the New Covenant). Also, Jesus was like Moses in that both were sustained by Divine Power when fasting for 40 days and 40 nights (Moses in Exodus 24:18, Exodus 34:28, and Jesus in Matthew 4:1-2, Luke 4:1-2).

So, Jesus was the Prophet, as well as the Messiah (Christ), as well as the Son of God. Jesus was all of these things.

Peace
2PhiloVoid

Limo said:

Hello 2PhiloVoid
I can't debate on the first part because we recognize Messiah as a prophet only.
About the second part to be like moses, you've listed 2 reasons only.
but I've listed 8 common attributes between Mosed and Mohamed. If we combine all together you may find El-Messiah is 20% like Moses while Mohamed is 80% like Moses

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Yes. I listed only 2 common attributes between Moses and Jesus. But, there are additional ones as well, Limo.

Peace
2Philovoid

Limo said:

I asked you the question because you wrote something about crucifixion as if you recognize the incident ,regardless who did it.
So, from Judaism point of view, do you have any documentation for the crucifixion?

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From a Judaism point of view, it's irreverent. Jesus plays no part in Judaism at all nor do any parts of his reported life.

Limo said:

I asked you the question because you wrote something about crucifixion as if you recognize the incident ,regardless who did it.
So, from Judaism point of view, do you have any documentation for the crucifixion?

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No, I wrote "If he was crucified". Was he crucified? Maybe. Did he even exist? Perhaps. Is it important from a historical POV? Of course. Is it important from the Jewish POV? Not at all.

Limo said:

Are you able to address the arguments without going to side discussion?

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From among your brothers would make the prophet mentioned of the sons of Jacob. Unless your claim is Muhammad was of the sons of Jacob making him an Israelite or Jew.

Note: You have competition from the Mormons on this. They think Joseph Smith fits the description. But I disagree with you and them.

Yeshua said the following:

And he said to them, These are my dvarim which I spoke to you while still being with you, that it is necessary that all the things having been written in the Torah of Moshe and the Neviim and the Tehillim about me [Moshiach] to be fulfilled. [TEHILLIM 2; 16; 22; 69; 72; 89; 110; 118;] Then he opened their minds to have binah (understanding) of the Kitvei Hakodesh. And he said to them, Thus it has been written, that the Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach must suffer his histalkus (passing) and come back to life again from HaMesim on HaYom HaShlishi, And teshuva for the selicha (forgiveness) of chattaim (sins) is to be preached bShem of Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach Yehoshua to all the Nations, beginning from Yerushalayim.
Lukas 24:44-47 OJB
http://bible.com/130/luk.24.44-47.OJB

Limo said:

"from among you" doesn't exist in all translations of 18:15 http://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/18-15.htm

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The ones you linked all have the same language making the prophet from the sons of Israel.

Here's the lexicon :


https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/deu/18/15/t_conc_171015

Not even close.

Limo said:

What about 18:18 http://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/18-18.htm ?
Including KJV, Most translations don't include "from the midst of thee"?


Regarding 18:15:
First : "from the midst of thee" should be enough, why adding "of thy brethren" unless one of them is not there in the original scripts
Second : Why it's not there in the following translations:
Holman Christian Standard Bible
International Standard Version
Young's Literal Translation

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The YLT has the same as the KJV
15 `A prophet out of thy midst, out of thy brethren, like to me, doth Jehovah thy God raise up to thee -- unto him ye hearken;