jerry kelso
Food For Thought
iamlamad,
Yes 1 Corinthians 15. Paul said I die daily. Is this about physical or spiritual resurrection? Jerry kelso
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Rev. 20:4, No Mention of Physical Earthly Reign
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iamlamad,
Yes 1 Corinthians 15. Paul said I die daily. Is this about physical or spiritual resurrection? Jerry kelso
Joh 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
This was Revealed to me, not my imagination. Jesus became The Judgment of God.
The Reign of Christ is over the Adam/carnal nature, which is 1,000 yrs. The life span of Adam, or one day.
To be carnally minded is Death, this is The death He died for all mankind.
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iamlamad
Lamad
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Paul sets his theme for the chapter in these verses:
12 Now if Christ is preached that he hath been raised from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, neither hath Christ been raised:
14 and if Christ hath not been raised, then is our preaching vain, your faith also is vain.
15 Yea, we are found false witnesses of God; because we witnessed of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead are not raised.
16 For if the dead are not raised, neither hath Christ been raised:
17 and if Christ hath not been raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also that are fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
19 If we have only hoped in Christ in this life, we are of all men most pitiable.
20 But now hath Christ been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of them that are asleep.
21 For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; then they that are Christ's, at his coming.
Clearly this is speaking of physical resurrection. Most of the church world recognizes this chapter as a sister passage to 1 thes. 4.
Did I understand your question?
By the way, NO WHERE in the New Testament have I found a verse where the word "resurrection" is used spiritually. It is always used to speak of a physical resurrection of those who heat stopped beating, their spirit has left their body and then later God brings spirit and body back together and they live again. Lazarus was "resurrected" from the dead, but only to his natural body. At the end, we will get immortal bodies.
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iamlamad
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I don't even know what you said! Certainly Jesus came for judgment, just as is written, but He also came to UNDO the works of Satan. In other words, to put the world BACK into the same place it was before Adam sinned. NO curse on the earth, and people in RIGHT fellowship with God. Jesus started that process then, but will finish it when death is finally defeated. The one thousand year reign of Christ is most likely related to the 7th day when God rested from creation. Man has controlled and ruled this world for 6000 years, but GOD will rule for the 7th.
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ivebeenshown
Expert invisible poster and thread killer
The children of the flesh are not the children of God, but the children of the promise are. The promise is by faith, which comes by the Spirit.
"Blessed be the kingdom of our father David, that cometh in the name of the Lord." These words were already said when Jesus rode on an ass into Jerusalem; were these people mistaken?
In Christ we are one body, Jew or Gentile. God has saved us from death in sin by his Spirit. He has cleansed us in baptism. We are God's people according to the righteousness of faith, and Jesus, the seed of David, is our King. His covenant with us is everlasting.
The covenant with David was that his seed would be forever, and his throne built up to all generations (Psalms 89:3-4.) Jesus Christ is of the seed of David according to the flesh (Romans 1:3) and is to be given David's throne (Luke 1:32.) When the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of Christ, he will reign forever (Revelation 11:15.)
It really is all about Christ.
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I apologize, ....from your post I thought you were seeing more than the surface of The Word, I was wrong.
If you think that Christ's Reign isn't happening now, then what has He been doing for 2,000 yrs?
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
To be carnally minded is Death, this is the Death that vs. 26 is speaking of, it is not the laying down of the physical body.
For flesh and blood has nothing to do with entering the kingdom of God anyhow.
Again I apologize for stepping into the thread, I will now bow out.
Happy digging. Peace
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Well...let's show a few places where your statement misses on this based purely on the context:
At the raising of Lazarus in John 11:25-27 Jesus say this to Martha:
25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,
26 and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”
27 She *said to Him, “Yes, Lord; I have believed that You are the Christ, the Son of God, even He who comes into the world.”
This passage of Jesus is clearly speaking of the spiritual resurrection we have, when we come to faith in Christ! We come to life spiritually...and it is on that basis that EVEN IF we die WE LIVE! Both a spiritual and physical resurrection is in view!
Now...Romans 6:3-11 also makes this very clear that there is a spiritual resurrection BEFORE there's a physical resurrection:
3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
7 for he who has died is freed from sin.
8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.
10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
11 Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
Once again spiritual and physical resurrection is in view Lamad! The PHYSICAL resurrection of Christ IS THE BASIS for our spiritual resurrection, which made us alive to God!
We KNOW there will be a resurrection of all who ever lived...BUT...if they have not had a spiritual resurrection to life in Christ FIRST...they are SPIRITUALLY DEAD...and being so they will be resurrected for judgement, NOT to eternal life!
Ephesians 2:1-7:
And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
In this passage we don't find the word "resurrection"...BUT...in reading the passage we see the spiritual resurrection of EVERY believer!
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While waiting in the Doctor's office today, I spent a little time in the Bible provided by the Gideons, which is an organization that I belong to.
I had never noticed this text before.
Joe 2:3 A fire devours before them, And behind them a flame burns; The land is like the Garden of Eden before them, And behind them a desolate wilderness; Surely nothing shall escape them.
The description given in Isaiah chapter 65 also sounds similar to the Garden of Eden.
It sounds like we return to something similar to the garden, after 2nd Peter 3:10.
Anybody have any thoughts on the text?
.
I had never noticed this text before.
Joe 2:3 A fire devours before them, And behind them a flame burns; The land is like the Garden of Eden before them, And behind them a desolate wilderness; Surely nothing shall escape them.
The description given in Isaiah chapter 65 also sounds similar to the Garden of Eden.
It sounds like we return to something similar to the garden, after 2nd Peter 3:10.
Anybody have any thoughts on the text?
.
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Fusion77
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I believe this is showing a contrast, to illustrate the devastation. In front of them, the land still looks nice. But, behind them utter destruction. As they march in unison, without deviation from their lines.
Picture an army of the Lord marching forth to defeat the nations that have come against Jerusalem. Zechariah 14:2-3. Joel 2:3 in front (before them), the land untouched. Yet, behind them (this great army) a desolate wilderness.
Yes, 2 peter 3:10 is speaking of the Day of the Lord, as is Joel 2:1. A cleansing of the earth. Where the things which can be shaken, will be removed. But we belong to a Kingdom which can not be shaken. Hebrews 12:27-28.
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Fusion77
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How about Revelation 20:5-6. Here we're told about a 1000 year reign. Where will it be. You'll have to search the OT. Revelation 20:7-8 says after the 1000 year reign, satan returns to the EARTH, to deceive the nations again. Going into some of the OT. Zechariah 14:4 of course you'd likely say that's happened, but come on!
Zechariah 14:8. Of course you'd likely say that's happened, in the spirit. Zechariah 14:9 in that day. He has currently not taken full control as 2 Corinthians 4:4 says satan is the god of this world. (Obviously he is still blinding)! Revelation 11:15 is where the kingdoms on the world become His. Zechariah 14:10 there's no plain, and the mount of olives isn't split in 2. Zechariah 14:11 Jerusalem is not living in security. It's divided and controlled partially by heathens. Zechariah 14:16 Do you go up every year to worship the Lord and celebrate the fall feasts.
Never mind! I could go on and on, but it's not worth it. Because this is the work of the Holy Spirit. 1Corinthians 2:4-6. I don't speak with worldly wisdom, but I'll tell you what's going on.
The enemy only needs to get anyone to go any other way but the WAY of the truth. He is the accuser of the brethren. Revelation 12:10 the accuser. I'm not qualified to judge, and am by no means suggesting this is a salvation issue. However, I am sure he's making accusations on some scripture. Perhaps Hebrews 9:28 or, with the claim that you're not waiting for Christ to appear a second time. The enemy is trying to get you on a "technicality".
This view is very dangerous wherein you decide to take and create scripture and fashion it to your liking. You decide that everything is just figurative, and choose whatever you want it to say. Ignoring what the Lord says. For all scripture is inspired of God. 2 Timothy 3:16. However, this view chooses to discredit the inspired word of God. This view is not of the Holy Spirit but is a deception.
The spirit of prophecy is the testimony of Jesus. What that means is that when prophecy comes forth, it will eventually testify of Jesus, or edify the church, or to lead people to Jesus. We are told that prophecy edifies the Church, which is the body of Christ. 1 Corinthians 14:4, prophecy edifies the Church. When the 2 witnesses who are 2 prophets Revelation 11:10 give their solemn testimony it will point to Jesus, it will build (edify the church), for those who accept the message. They will be sowing the seed (which is the word of God), Luke 8:11 to a world in bondage. zera (to sow or scatter seed) Babel (Babylon) God has delivered 2 messages to 1 of these 2 witnesses Zechariah 4:6 and recently Haggai 2:20-23. The Lord calls him Zerubbabel. The Lord has not yet shaken both the Heavens and the earth. Hebrews 12:26-27 Haggai 2:20-23 is about to happen. So seek the Lord whole heartedly. A Great War is on the horizon. Then you'll know the Lord has spoken. If that Zerubbabel is gone, who then is the message to? The governor of Judah, (earth) during the Millenial Kingdom. It's a message to one of the 2 witnesses. God is unveiling His plan, and soon you'll see.
I've considered writing something, but have been torn between wanting to be compassionate, and yet wanting to speak the truth. I decided that it's better to speak the truth. To tell you what's happening from a spiritual perspective. The enemy is trying to get you on a "technicality". Beware and don't fashion the word of God to fit your belief. A great calamity will be upon us soon. I realize this is the work of the Holy Spirit, and soon you will see what I say is the truth.
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you're right! this passage doesn't!
i don't know of anyone that teaches that rev 20:4 says that "Jesus coming to this earth and establishing a worldly kingdom at jerusalem".
it might be the fact that rev 20:4 expresses that very sentiment, i.e., "reigned with Christ a thousand years"
it doesn't!
in revelation 5 at around verse 10.
Revelation 5:10(NKJV)
10 And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth.”
in zechariah 14 at around verse 4.
Zechariah 14:4(NKJV)
4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south.
in fact, zech 14 has a lot to say about Christ's reign on earth, especially verses 16-19! (you should read it sometime.
)actually it is the truth of the matter that you are trying to subvert! (i'd be careful with that if i were you!
)actually we do have to wait, Jesus says so:
Matthew 25:31,34(NKJV)
31“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
34Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: (also compare rev 11:15 to zech 14 and rev 19!
)Jesus only comes in glory at His second coming and THEN He will set up His kingdom!
you see? He says so!
it is THEN, when we will inherit the kingdom!
again, He says so!
so i would submit, based on scripture, that the reign on earth of the saints with the Christ for a thousand years, happens at Jesus' second coming!
remember, here a little there a little - isa 28:10!
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Fusion77
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Revelation 5:9 every tribe every tongue every nation. Revelation 5:10 they will reign upon the earth. Revelation 20:4 theyvreigned with Christ 1000 years. Again who opens the seals? The Lamb (Christ). Revelation 5:9 Revelation 5:10 again reign on earth. 20:4 1000 years. The thing is not only will Christ reign but we will also. I'm not currently reigning as a priest for 1000 years. My years are limited in this "tent".
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When you think this is about this fallen world, it's is to see how you *think* you're not reigning. However bring to mind 1 Peter 2:4-12:
4 And coming to Him as to a living stone which has been rejected by men, but is choice and precious in the sight of God,
5 you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
6 For this is contained in Scripture: “Behold, I lay in Zion a choice stone, a precious corner stone, And he who believes in Him will not be disappointed.”
7 This precious value, then, is for you who believe; but for those who disbelieve, “The stone which the builders rejected,
This became the very corner stone,”
8 and, “A stone of stumbling and a rock of offense”; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed.
9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
10 for you once were not a people, but now you are the people of God; you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.
11 Beloved, I urge you as aliens and strangers to abstain from fleshly lusts which wage war against the soul.
12 Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the thing in which they slander you as evildoers, they may because of your good deeds, as they observe them, glorify God in the day of visitation.
Why do you think verse 9 says you are a ROYAL PRIESTHOOD as a believer, but you deny that? You as a believer will never die...so just as Paul declared "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord"
Jesus also declared to Martha “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die."
I think how you view yourself as a believer is much less than how Christ views you!
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Fusion77
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I think I just see the bible as how it is. The bible is very clear there will be 1000 year reign on earth with Christ. Revelation 20:4 Revelation 5:9-10. I will not continue in this "tent" throughout the 1000 reign. 2 Corinthians 5:1-6. It talks about our earthly tent, being torn down. We a have a building from God. My earthly tent is not yet torn down. When it is I will receive that dwelling from heaven. 2 Corinthians 5:1-6.
Isaiah 65:17 Isaiah 65:20 the sinner lives until 100. I don't know anyone over 100. Isaiah 65:25 try putting a hungry wolf and a Lamb together. The bible is very clear there will be a literal 1000 year reign on earth. To believe the Lord Jesus has already returned is pure deception. This kind of position, is simply forming the bible to say what you want it to say. It's taking verses out of context and almost fashioning the bible into your own liking.
The Lord has Not returned. He will return and every eye will see him. I don't even need to list the scripture, because it's obvious with this type of veiwpoint the bible really doesn't apply anyways.
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How about the fact that Jesus said “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die."
One has to think about what Paul is saying because he's saying the same thing Jesus said! He telling you when your earthly life is over you enter God's presence. The reign continues in the presence of Christ! How do you think all those saints are in heaven in Revelation? They're reigning with Christ.
Have you ever noticed John says "when the thousand years have completed"? That's a curious statement if it's a literal thousand years...isn't it?
How about when God says He's faithful to the 1000th generation...does that mean He cuts off the 1001st generation?
How about God owning the cattle on a 1000 hills...does that mean the 1001st hill He doesn't own?
How about "a day with the Lord IS LIKE a 1000 years and a 1000 years LIKE a day?
Seems to me the bible is telling you how to see it.
See what you're doing? You're forcing Isaiah into a literal statement, when obviously it's not. Your clue comes in when John quotes Isaiah 65:17-20 in Revelation 21:1-5
Who said He did return?
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Your note sounds like true and honest thought right from the heart, good job. While others seem to attempt to prop up failing theologies with youtube videos or adversarial language. I don't think that any of us will be 100% right but it might be more about how we treat each other.
I believe in a literal 1000 year reign with Jesus but it can't possibly occur on the earth for multiple reasons. But I can respect and appreciate the reasons why you believe as you do. You made mention of "every eye will see Him". It will be impossible for "every eye" to see Him at the second coming, especially those who pierced Him. Because "the rest of the dead" will be keeping their eyes closed until after the thousand years are finished.
"But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
Jesus told Joseph Caiaphas in Matthew 26 that the next time they met, he would see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven. Since Caiaphas will most certainly be included in the group: "those who pierced Him" and they also are part of : "the rest of the dead" who will not live until after the thousand years are finished, it means that there will be a third coming of Jesus after the thousand years are finished when we come back to earth with Him.
The aim of our charge is love that issues from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.
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"he who believes in Me will live --->even if he dies.
It means that I have to die first before I can be resurrected. Jesus is just saying that it's a done deal, you can take it to the bank and that it's as good as gold. He's not superseding or circumventing the rest of scripture including His most recent information found in Revelation 20.
Paul said that there those who are "asleep" and that we should not grieve as others do who have no hope. Asleep means dead in the grave right? There's untold millions of people from all ages who are asleep. But then he said we who are alive will not precede those who have fallen asleep. And the dead in Christ will rise first. That means ALL the dead in Christ right?
(not the wicked dead because the rest of the dead will not come to life until the thousand years are finished) [completed]
Just ALL the dead IN Christ.
Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words.
The main takeaway here is that we all go as a group, it's not an individual resurrection for each and every saint.
If you refer to the numberless multitude from revelation 7 then you are correct. They are seen by John in vision in Heaven after our end time tribulation right at the start of the thousand years from Revelation 20:
“These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
“Therefore they are before the throne of God,
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne will shelter them with his presence.
They shall hunger no more, neither thirst anymore;
the sun shall not strike them,
nor any scorching heat.
For the Lamb in the midst of the throne will be their shepherd,
and he will guide them to springs of living water,
and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne will shelter them with his presence.
They shall hunger no more, neither thirst anymore;
the sun shall not strike them,
nor any scorching heat.
For the Lamb in the midst of the throne will be their shepherd,
and he will guide them to springs of living water,
and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”
It sounds simple to me. The rest of the dead will not live until the thousand years are finished or completed. When we "have completed" our thousand year reign with Jesus it will be finished.
fin·ish/ˈfiniSH/verb
1.bring (a task or activity) to an end; complete.
2.complete the manufacture or decoration of (a material, object, or place) by giving it an attractive surface appearance.
Cattle and hills can be symbolic, time cannot. In the books of Daniel and Revelation there are 18 prophetic time periods but none of them are symbolic. I submit that it would undermine the very purpose of apocalyptic prophecy to attempt to change the definitions of their time periods. How would the beast feel if he was given 42 months of symbolic authority that was realized as 32 literal months. See what I mean? Prophecy would then become like a nose of wax that could be squished, bent and molded around to suit anyones taste.
Same answer as above.
I know some have read this to be 6 millennial days of 1000 years each with the thousand years of Revelation 20 being the 7 thousandth year. It seems self evident as the Bible genealogies speak of about 6000 years since the fall. Which may mean that it's just about that time for us to get ready for a really big shew.
But in no way does 2 Peter 3:8 or Psalm 90:4 violate the literal 1000 year prophetic time period from Revelation 20. It's actually the Revelation that reinforces the literalness of the two previous Scriptural mentions of a thousand years.
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