There are more than two elements. There are at least five: 'coming of the Lord', the 'gathering', the 'elect', the 'trumpet', the 'clouds'.
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Pre-Trib Only Pretribulation explanation for 2 Thessalonians 2
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iamlamad
Lamad
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I can only believe what is written. I know the 70th week is outlined with 7's: the 7th seal and the 7th vial. I know that the days of GT that Jesus spoke of will be taking place in Rev. 15 and 16, and I know the vials are poured out in Rev 16 to shorten the days of GT. Certainly the Lord will come to punish, but that will be His Rev. 19 coming.
For the 1 thes. coming, Paul's use of the Greek eklektos is in many of his letters, but not in 1 thes.
The KJV translates Strongs G1588 in the following manner: elect (16x), chosen (7x).
It is used in Matthew 24
Mat 24:22
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake G1588 those days shall be shortened.
1 Thes. 1 uses the Greek word eklogē which means chosen: the act of picking out or choosing.
The question is, WHO will be God's elect during the days of GT? This will be the time of Jacob's trouble and the time of Daniel's 70th week. This time is for JEWS, not the Gentile church. It is God's perfect will that the Bride of Christ be taken out before this time and escape these days of GT.
New International Version
Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man."
I found this word "escape" in every English translation shown in the Bible CC; 24 different translations. So IF there is an escape, and there certainly will be, why do you fight against it? Wouldn't you WANT to escape?
What is God saying TODAY about escaping? The following quotes from the books "I AM COMING" by Susan Davis. God came to her and ask if she would begin taking down His dictated letters.
When will you awake, O’ lost children of the world? When will you see that only I hold the keys to the door to escape through? Soon this door will open for MY bride and once she is through to safety it will shut and no man can open it. It will be closed and you will be left if your lamp is not full of MY refining oil. O’ church of the lost, when will you awaken? ...
The LAMB WHO takes away the sins of the world,
YAHUSHUA HA MASHIACH
“My Bride” will be counted amongst the worthy ones, at My Appearing!
She will stand in front of the “Son of Man!”
She will escape all that is coming, upon the earth!
“My Bride,” Look Up!
I Am coming for you, and you alone!
I will give you MY Words:
Children, it is your LORD. I come to you with a Message of peace and tranquility. The hour approaches of war and violence. There will be endless struggles once MY bride is removed. But until she is removed, there is a door open wide to you for a short time yet.
This door is a door to freedom. It is available to whosoever will take it and walk through. It is open wide for the moment. It is a door of peace and comfort. It is MY Path to freedom: escape from the coming madness.
MY Door is a Door of Peace and Tranquility—it is MY Peace and Calm…It is walking in MY Will…It is the escape to things to come here on the earth.
Children, walk through this door while there is still yet time. Soon this door that is open will shut and then no man can open it again. The escape route will be closed. The hour is closing in for the door to soon shut. Just as the door for Noah shut to those left behind in the flood, so shall this great door close to leave behind this wicked, unbelieving generation that so doubts MY Messages of hope and salvation; rapture and rescue.
am the last remaining outpost: the only open doorway—the corridor of Light—the narrow way. Turn to this doorway for your escape. All other ways lead to destruction. There is no hope except through MY Truth, MY Light, MY Safe passage way. There is no other hope or light. I am the STRONG TOWER. I am the next flight to Freedom.
Everything else is false hope. The Light will not be here for long. One day, the Light will be gone and only darkness will reign. ...
I am the Great DELIVERER. I am coming swiftly. Be ready to make your escape.
The hour quickens, MY Words are true.
Your LORD JESUS
How long must WE still wait? You test the HEART of your GOD very much.
But know that only those with a sincere, humble heart, will be raptured as the bride. Know this very well. Not all enter MY Kingdom as the bride, not all. She is carefully chosen based on her heart towards ME and MY SON. WE judge very righteously, WE see very righteously and WE hear very righteously. Know this very well.
A sincere heart is rewarded sincerely. A lukewarm heart is not rewarded. Only MY bride will enjoy her Heavenly Blissful Gifts that are laid away for her personally, until the day is there, that terrible and glorious Day.
Terrible for those who stay behind, but glorious for those who escape by a Heavenly Rapture that will only be one and all delight. Be assured whether you are part of that latter group, if you are not ready now as MY bride, when will you be? Ever?
The time has already more than elapsed and I, GOD, will not continue to wait for those who sit in the valley of decision. Take the decision NOW and do not hesitate any longer, for I, GOD, will also no longer hesitate to rapture MY beloved.
Once the day and the hour comes for everyone, and everyone will know and see what has happened. One group will pass into Glory and another will remain in despair and sheer misery.
All hopes and light will be gone. The reality will be terrible and you will know why you have not passed into Glory. Persecution will not have to be waited for, as the antichrist has taken his place and knows exactly what steps he will take. He has it all figured out and he will not waste a second, when his time of complete control has come.
Know, MY beloved that the bride goes now in the rapture, it is MY true bride and beloved and that of MY SON. Once this Light is gone in the world, it is every man for himself. Cold and hatred will be the two tools with which MY enemy will control this world.
There are many more I could paste. These all speak of a pretrib rapture, simply because GOD is pretrib. There is an escape, exactly as Luke wrote. Will you believe in the escape?
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Douggg
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The two main elements to the rapture/resurrection missing in Matthew 24:31 are as I wrote, the rapture (the changing of the living) and the resurrection (the raising of the dead). Without those two elements, there is no rapture/resurrection taking place.
In Matthew 24:31, the gathering of the elect, there is no mentioning of clouds, nor coming of the Lord. Those are in a previous verse - but that verse is not about the gathering of the elect. Here is the passage again (really, you need to start copying and pasting verses and highlighting the words - it isn't fair to expect the other poster to do it all the time for you).
Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
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iamlamad
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Yet, there are many that love God yet don't believe (yet) in the Son. They are descendants of Jacob. Did you ever watch one of the cameras on the wailing wall? Some would just let them be destroyed. God won't. He will end up getting some of them saved. Some will have to SEE Him first.
Of course in Daniel it was according to the flesh. As many today in the flesh that don't yet believe in the SON are who the future 70th week is all about. It is THEIR week, not our week. The Bride won't be here.
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Jesus spoke explicitly of his coming on three occasions:
- To his disciples, before going to Jerusalem (Matthew 16:24-28, Mark 8:34-38 & Mark 9:1, Luke 9:23-27)
- To his disciples, on the Mount of Olives (Matthew 24:27-31, Mark 13:24-27, Luke 21:25-27)
- To the chief priests and scribes, after being seized (Matthew 26:60-64, Mark 14:60-62, Luke 22:66-69)
Paul, Peter, John, James, and Jude mention his coming in the epistles in at least the following places, plus one passage from Acts:
- Acts of the Apostles 1:11 "shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven"
- 1 Corinthians 1:7 "waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ"
- 1 Corinthians 4:5 "judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God"
- 1 Corinthians 11:25 "til he come"
- 1 Corinthians 15:23 "at his coming"
- Philippians 3:20 "our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ"
- Colossians 3:4 "when Christ, who is our life, shall appear, you shall also appear with him also in glory"
- 1 Thessalonians 1:10 "wait for his Son from heaven"
- 1 Thessalonians 2:19 "our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming"
- 1 Thessalonians 3:13 "at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints"
- 1 Thessalonians 4:15 "the coming of the Lord"
- 1 Thessalonians 5:23 "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ"
- 2 Thessalonians 1:7 "when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels"
- 2 Thessalonians 2:1 "by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and by our gathering unto him"
- 2 Thessalonians 2:8 "the brightness of his coming"
- 1 Timothy 6:12-14 "Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life... until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ"
- 2 Timothy 4:1 "the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing"
- 2 Timothy 4:8 "there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing."
- Titus 2:13 "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our savior Jesus Christ"
- Hebrews 9:28 "unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation"
- James 5:7 "the coming of the Lord"
- James 5:8 "the coming of the Lord"
- 1 Peter 1:7 "be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ"
- 1 Peter 1:13 "hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ"
- 1 Peter 5:4 "when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory"
- 2 Peter 3:4 "the promise of his coming"
- 1 John 2:28 "when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming"
- 1 John 3:2 "we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him"
- Jude 1:14 "Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints"
Three other epistles do not seem to mention 'coming' or 'appearing' or 'revealing', although they do mention the redemption or resurrection or attainment of eternal life:
- 2 Corinthians 4:14 "he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you"
- Galatians 6:8 "he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting"
- Ephesians 4:30 "grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption"
And then of course we have Philemon, 2 John, and 3 John which seem to be of little consequence yet are nonetheless considered among the Scriptures.
And what of verse 30, the one immediately preceding verse 31, where Jesus is seen coming in power and glory? Did Jesus speak out of order? Or did he not say:
Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mark 13
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
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No comment.
Is one who is elected not also said to be elect? In one case Paul uses the concept as a gerund, as the act of God having 'elected' or 'chosen' his people, while in another case Paul uses the concept as an adjective, which is itself used as a noun, similar to the word 'poor' in the phrase 'mercy for the poor'. Both usages nonetheless refer to the concept of election.
What is this "Gentile church" you speak of? "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body."
You only assume that "escape" means "be caught up to meet Jesus in the air."
I have no interest in such private prophecies or visions.
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Douggg
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First, I appreciate all the copy and pasting of the verses.
There was never an argument that Jesus's coming back to earth is in Matthew 24:30. The order though when it gets to Matthew 24:31 is different than in 1thessalonians4:13-18, in which the Lord Himself descends with a shout, the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God. While in Matthew 24:31, it is not the Lord Himself who gathers the elect, but angels he sends out to do the gathering.
When Jesus returns in Revelation 19, there is no shout either. What are the words of that shout in 1thessalonians4:16 going to be in your opinion?
Well, we don't know for sure the exact words, but it be a verbal command of some sort.
1thessalonians4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
We all are in agreement that the redemption of our bodies is going to happen. So your copying and pasting effort was not in vain. The big disagreement is over when and by whom. By the angels, like in Matthew 24:31 or by Jesus's voice like in 1thessalonians4:16 ?
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In Mark 13, it says that Jesus is the one who gathers. In 1 Thessalonians 4, it does not say it is Jesus' voice that causes the dead to rise, just that he descends from heaven with a shout. Is it the shout? The trumpet? Just his descent from heaven at his coming? We don't know for sure from just those scriptures.
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Douggg
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In Mark 13, it says 27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
Matthew 24:31 is just a little more clear that the angels are the ones directly doing the gathering. Something that doesn't take place in 1thessalonians4:16-17.
As far as Jesus's voice for the resurrection, we do know that all who are in the grave will hear his voice. Of course this passage includes the resurrection for the great white throne Judgment, but it also indicates that those in rapture/resurrection will hear his voice.
John5
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
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The point stands that, although one passage says it is Jesus gathering, another says it is his angels. So with that in mind, any event of being gathered or caught up to Jesus recorded would not necessarily exclude that same possibility.
I do not see a difference between "the dead" and "all that are in the grave."
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iamlamad
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Do you imagine God has quit speaking to His People? Maybe in your mind the gifts of the Spirit are over and done with?
It is of course your choice. After all, I don't you really believe God spoke to me, for you don't believe His message.
What is the Gentile church? Although we are made one IN THE REALM of the SPIRIT, we still have DNA.
There is Jacob's DNA and there is Gentile DNA.
Romans 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Come in where? of course to the church, the body of Christ on earth. God did NOT say "until the fulness of the" Jews be come in. We are now waiting on the fullness of the Gentiles. All the churches in Rev. 2 & 3 were Jewish churches. They all died out and God sent Paul to the Gentiles. The church has been made up of predominantly Gentiles ever since. The church or body of Christ of today is as a parentheses separating the Jews and Hebrews of THEN to the Jews and Hebrews of the 70th week. the moment the Gentile church is pulled out, God focuses His attention on the Jews. They are destined for His wrath, the Body of Christ is not.
Did any Jews that did NOT ESCAPE Germany survive? For those left behind, there is ONE WORD from God that fits the time: OVERCOME. The choice then, from God Himself: escape or be overcome.
My point was there are Jews called "elect" and the church called "elect." We therefore cannot use that word as an argument for either side.
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iamlamad
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God spoke via prophecy in the New Testament, especially in the book of Acts. Did they reject prophecy?
The problem is, God's present day speaking stands in stark contrast to many of the theories proposed on this thread. So of course they will deny it is God speaking.
What if these messages ARE from God and you reject them?
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Douggg
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What if someone says they have messages from God, but are not, and I followed them? I have no reason, nor desire to go down that road. I already have the bible which is plenty sufficient.
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What is to stop another from saying that they are Spirit-led, and that you are being lead by a false Spirit from a false prophet? Who is to settle such a matter?
I will hold to that which Christ established with his Apostles, who appointed bishops and presbyters.
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Douggg
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The world's population is 7 billion. Of that 7 billion, it is highly possible that a thousand people could be saying that they have a message from God, every day. I am not going to get wrapped listening to everyone, or even a few, who has claims of a message or vision from God. The bible is plenty sufficient. Sticking to the bible, a person can't go wrong.
I might watch a You Tube video every once in awhile exposing false prophets. But none of that stuff warrants extensive use of my time.
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