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visionary

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Tradition understanding is the acceptable understanding. Usually it has held communities together, brought consistency and habits to the routines. But does that make it right?

Most Jewish rabbinical authorities have determined that tunas, other scombrid fish (bonito, mackerel, wahoo), and flatfishes (brill, flounder, fluke, halibut, megrim, plaice, skate, sole, and turbot) are clean kosher fish. I will challenge that determination, arguing the case against tunas and flatfishes being classified as clean kosher fish, and will declare them UNCLEAN.

Most Jewish kosher certification authorities state that in order for a fish to be Scripturally clean and kosher, it must have fins and scales. They have ALSO determined that the types of scales that clean kosher fish must have are clenoid or cycloid scales that can be easily removed with fingers OR A KNIFE without causing damage to the skin (kaskeses) of the fish. They have ALSO determined that a fish with ANY AMOUNT of scales, even just a few minute or microscopic scales, is considered a scaled fish.

Jewish rabbinical authorities have classified tunas, other scombrid fish (bonito, mackerel, wahoo), and flatfishes (flounder, fluke, halibut, plaice, soles and turbot) as clean fish, based on the fact that these fish have some type of clenoid or cycloid scales on their bodies.

Lev 11:9-12 & Deut 14:9-10 These you may eat of all that are in the waters: you may eat all that have fins AND SCALES. And whatever does not have fins AND SCALES you shall not eat; it is unclean for you.

What did God mean by “and scales?” Did He mean “and ANY scales,” or “and scales COVERING THE BODY OF THE FISH?”

The dietary commands were given to the Hebrews at Sinai. Even if Noah who knew what clean and unclean animals were, would not classify Tuna or flatfish as clean because that was not what they saw. Tuna and flatfish would not have considered as clean, scaled fish. Rabbis were able to change the determination because they can inspect fish scales with magnifying glasses or microscopes, that didn’t exist at the time of Noah or Moses. They would have observed tuna as a fish without visible overlapping scales, or if they spotted the very few scales that a tuna possesses, they then would have viewed tuna as a fish that is primarily a scale-less, skin fish. They would have inspected flatfishes and regarded them as unclean, due to their scales not being easily removable on their rough top skin and not being scaled on their smooth bottom skin. Clean kosher fish should have overlapping scales that are visible to the naked eye, scales that cover the entire body of the fish and are easily removed.

Scale:
Any of the NUMEROUS plates, made of various substances resembling enamel or dentine, COVERING THE BODIES of fishes [1].

The definition of “scale(s),” in regards to fish, implies that scaled fish are fish whose bodies are covered with scales. Minimally, sparsely scaled fish that are primarily scale-less skin fish, should not be considered a scaled fish. The words of Scripture “and scales,” (Leviticus 11:9-12; Deuteronomy 14:9-10), should be understood to mean “and scales COVERING THE FISH,” not “and ANY scales.”

A bald man usually has some hair on his head. Yet, a man that is primarily bald is not considered a ‘man with hair.’ Likewise, a primarily scale-less fish, even if it has a few scales on its body, should not be considered a ‘fish with scales.’

Scales help prevent fish from becoming infested with parasitic worms. Sparsely scaled tuna fishes that are primarily scale-less skin fish, or half-scaled flatfishes, are not protected from parasitic infections throughout the flesh of their bodies. Primarily scale-less fish or half-scaled fish are typically infested with parasitic worms throughout their flesh.

Clean, fully scaled fish, such as salmon, are also prone to acquiring parasitic worm infections. However, parasitic infections in clean fish are typically restricted to their exposed areas: their gills. Parasites enter and infect the gill slit areas of clean fish, but do not penetrate their scales infecting their flesh, and generally the parasites do not work their way from the gills into the body and flesh of clean fish. The flesh of clean fish usually remains parasite-free and safe to eat.

In recent times, clean fish have been raised in tight quarters to be harvested for food in commercial fish farms. Clean fish live unhealthier lives in such farms, are more prone to illness and increased parasitic worm infections and are generally less healthy than wild caught fish. Therefore it is preferable to purchase wild caught clean fish as the healthier choice, when possible, rather than fish harvested from commercial fish farms.

Acts 9:18 Immediately there FELL FROM HIS EYES SOMETHING LIKE SCALES, and he received his sight at once; and he arose and was baptized.

Scripture describes scales as scales (or something like scales) that fall off by themselves, without the use of a knife. Acts 9:18 is circumstantial supporting Scripture evidence that true scaled fish must have scales that fall off by themselves. Flatfishes have scales imbedded in their rough skin that can only be removed with a knife.

TUNA FISH
Tunas typically have very few, small, minute, almost microscopic scales in discreet areas of their body; typically near their head and tail fin. Tunas are PRIMARILY a scale-less, smooth-bodied skin fish, which is why they are UNCLEAN.

Tunas have varying unsafe levels of mercury content; something they shouldn’t have if they were a clean fish and safe for human consumption. Atlantic bluefin tuna (tuna sushi) has the highest levels of mercury of any type of tuna. Several studies have determined that mercury can cause health problems for adults, including an increased risk of cardiovascular disease and neurological disorders. Pregnant women, women who might become pregnant, and children have been advised to not consume tuna as the mercury in tuna can damage the developing nervous system of infants and children. The dangerous mercury content in tuna is red flag that indicates that there is something not quite kosher about tuna.

Tunas, as a fish that is primarily a scale-less, smooth-bodied skin fish, are often infested with parasites. They do not have scales covering the vast majority of their large bodies to shield them from parasitic worms and toxins that can easily penetrate their unprotected skin.

UNCLEAN CHARACTERISTICS OF SCROMBRID FISH (TUNAS)
The reason why tunas and other scombrid fish (bonitos, mackerels, wahoos) are unclean is because they are primarily scale-less, skin fish. The unclean characteristics of tunas and other scombrid fish are presented as further circumstantial evidence to support the viewpoint that scrombrid fish are unclean.

ENDOTHERMIC (WARM-BLOODED)
Tunas, as well as other large scombrid fish (bonitos, mackerels, wahoos), are endothermic, meaning they are warm-blooded or partially warm-blooded. Endothermic warm bloodedness is a characteristic shared with other large, unclean fish such as billfish, sailfish, sharks, swordfish, and marine mammals (dolphins, whales).

FINLETS
Tunas and other scombrid fish have two dorsal fins and a series of finlets behind the rear dorsal fin and anal fin. These finlets are rigid, non-retractable appendages that are crustacean-like in texture and appearance.

TOXICITY
Fish without scales have a higher level of toxicity in their flesh than fish with scales, Tuna and mackerel fish have varying high levels of mercury content that can cause long-term health problems for adults, pregnant women, infants and children.

Pacific bluefin tuna are top predators and as such they are superb swimmers. They swim across the Pacific Ocean during their life cycles before being caught, packaged and sold for human consumption. Pacific bluefin tunas have been contaminated with trace amounts of radioactivity acquired from the Japanese Fukushima nuclear reactor accident of March 2011 that continues to leak radiation into the Pacific Ocean to this day.

FLATFISHES
Flatfish (brill, flounder, fluke, halibut, megrim, plaice, skate, sole and turbot) are similar looking, bottom dwelling, bottom feeding, scaled fish. The scales of flatfish are imbedded in their skin and cannot be easily removed. The top, dark sides of these fish have “rough” leathery-type scales that can only be removed (with a knife). The bottom white side of the fish is typically very smooth and has very few scales, if any, or they are imbedded under their skin and cannot be removed.

All flatfishes are compressed laterally and spend most of their life lying and swimming along the bottom of the waters on their side. Lying on the seafloor makes flatfish susceptible to parasitic infection, but not all worms in the flesh of flatfish originate on the outside, through their un-scaled bottom side. As bottom feeders, flatfish eat parasites that contain worms that often will work their way through the intestines and into the flesh of these fish.

UNCLEAN CHARACTERISTICS OF FLATFISH
Flatfishes share many of the characteristics of other unclean creatures. The primary reason flatfishes are unclean is because they do not have true fish scales covering their entire bodies – scales that fall off by themselves, but have scales that can only be removed with a knife on the top side of their bodies and are scale-less on their bottom side. The unclean characteristic and trait aspects of flatfishes are presented as further circumstantial evidence to support the viewpoint that flatfishes are unclean.

AMBUSH PREDATORS
Flatfish are lie and wait, ambush predators. They position themselves on the sea floor, often camouflaged, then lie, wait and ambush their prey as they crawl or swim by.

All lie-and-wait, ambush, predator mammals, birds and insects are unclean. Therefore, it would stand to reason that all lie-and-wait, ambush, predator flatfishes are unclean.

CAMOUFLAGE
Flatfish have the ability to camouflage their skin color to match their surroundings. Camouflage is a trait that flatfish share with unclean chameleons, cuttlefish and octopuses.

HORIZONTAL SWIMMERS (NOT VERTICAL)
Flatfish swim in a horizontal plane, rather than in a vertical, back-up/belly-down, orientation, as most other fish do. When they swim, flatfish tend to glide only an inch (2.54 cm) or so off the bottom while closely following the contour of the sea floor. Flatfish swim horizontally, as do unclean manta ray sharks.

SAND DWELLERS
Flatfish relax and cover themselves in sand on the sea floor to camouflage and lie in wait as ambush predators. Flatfish that ‘wallow in the sand’ share a similar characteristic of the unclean female swine that ‘wallows in the mire.’

2 PETER 2:22:
“A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”

SCAVENGERS
Flatfish are bottom feeders and scavengers. They eat the dead carcass remains of fish and other sea creatures that fall to or die on the sea floor.

All scavenger mammals, birds and insects are unclean.

STEREOSCOPIC VISION
Flatfishes have two eyes on the same side of their head that are capable of independently rotating almost 360 degrees, giving these fish depth perception and an excellent field of vision. This enables them, as a predatory fish, to more easily spot and capture prey. Most other fish have eyes located on opposite sides of their head, each eye generating an independent image.

Whenever flatfish are being sold in a fish market, they are always presented belly up with their eyed-side down because, instinctively, people are somewhat repulsed and will not purchase fish that have two-stereoscopic predatory eyes on the same side of their body.

All clean mammals, birds and insects have eyes on the opposite sides of their heads. Unclean predator mammals, birds and insects have stereoscopic binocular vision, or independently rotating eyes, enabling them to more easily spot and capture prey.

Independently rotating eyes, eyes that enable flatfish to see in more than one direction at the same time, is a trait that flatfish share with unclean chameleons.

SWIMMERS (SOLITARY) THAT DO NOT SWIM IN SCHOOLS
Flatfishes are independent solitary swimmers that do not group together and swim in schools.

All clean mammals group together in herds; all clean birds group together in flocks; and all clean insects group together in colonies (and can swarm together when in large numbers). All clean fish should therefore group together and swim in schools [5].

YESHUA (JESUS) COMMANDED SCHOOLS OF FISH INTO PETER’S NETS

LUKE 5:4-6:
When He had stopped speaking, He said to Simon, “Launch out into the deep and let down your nets for a catch.”
But Simon answered and said to Him, “Master, we have toiled all night and caught nothing; nevertheless at Your word I will let down the net.” And when they had done this, they caught a great number of fish, and their net was breaking.

Bottom dwelling flatfish are not caught in nets, but with spears or hooks. Flatfish were not the kind of fish that Peter the fisherman, a man who never ate anything unclean, caught in nets (Acts 10:14).

OTHER QUESTIONABLE FISH
Groupers and orange roughy (slimehead) are bottom dwelling, bottom-feeding fish. They have “rough” leathery-type or oily imbedded scales that are not easily removable. Groupers are solitary swimmers that do not swim in schools and are ambush predators. These fish have high levels of mercury and should not be consumed for these reasons.

Codfish have leathery-type non-overlapping oily scales. Haddock fish have scales that are scarcely visible through the mucus with which their skin is coated. Codfish and haddock are bottom-feeders plagued with parasitic cod worm infestations throughout their flesh. Similar related bottom-feeding fish are pollack and whiting.

Many believers may think that they are keeping kosher by avoiding pork and shellfish, while not realizing that most fishmeals sold in fast food restaurants are some kind of unclean flatfish (in fish and chips) or tuna. Kosher-conscious believers need to put flatfish and tuna on their list of unclean creatures not to be eaten. Caution should be taken when buying fish from a fish market and inquiries made about fish type when ordering fish in restaurants.

Jewish rabbinical authority is NOT the final authority on determining clean and unclean fish. Rabbinical authorities rejected Messiah. They should not be considered infallible on the topic of kosher certification or determining clean and unclean creatures.

Rabbinical kosher-certifying authorities err in classifying tunas and flatfish as clean fish in these two ways:

1. They classify tunas and other sparsely scaled scrombrid fish that have very few scales throughout their mostly scale-less bodies as clean and kosher.

2. They classify flatfishes that are scaled on their topside and scale-less on their bottom side as clean and kosher. Flatfish have scales imbedded in their rough skin on their topside that are only removable with a knife.

Should we not step out from under the traditional Judaism and return to a more kosher Judaism that abides by a higher standard?
 

Lulav

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Most Jewish rabbinical authorities have determined that tunas, other scombrid fish (bonito, mackerel, wahoo), and flatfishes (brill, flounder, fluke, halibut, megrim, plaice, skate, sole, and turbot) are clean kosher fish.

FLATFISHES
Flatfish (brill, flounder, fluke, halibut, megrim, plaice, skate, sole and turbot) are similar looking, bottom dwelling, bottom feeding, scaled fish. The scales of flatfish are imbedded in their skin and cannot be easily removed. The top, dark sides of these fish have “rough” leathery-type scales that can only be removed (with a knife). The bottom white side of the fish is typically very smooth and has very few scales, if any, or they are imbedded under their skin and cannot be removed.

???? Skate?


Chabad Kosher Fish list


Chabad Non Kosher fish list
On the Non Kosher list -Sharks, rays and their relatives (Class Chondrichthyes). Including Grayfishes or dogfishes (Mustelus species, Squalus species); Soupfin shark (Galeorhinus zyopterus); Sawfishes (Pristis species); Skates (Raja species); Chimaeras or ratfishes (Order Chimaeriformes).

KA.org


NON-KOSHER FISH
X Skate NOT ACCEPTABLE

KSA Kosher
  • Many (but not all) tuna

I can't find any Kosher source that says skate is kosher. Can you cite the sources that claim skate is kosher Vis?​


 
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visionary

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I think there is a significant different between "Messianic" Judaism from Judaism. These halacha difficulties or conflicts are not about whole sale rejection of Judaism but rather a question as the the standard and whether is it high enough [narrow way].
 
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Shimshon

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I think there is a significant different between "Messianic" Judaism from Judaism.
QFF (quoted for fact) You believe there is a huge difference between MJ and Judaism? Is this why you see it your duty to identify these differences here? Messianic Judaism has always been based upon the unique connection between the two, not the contrast differences.

Here is what your sentence means when properly structured...
These halacha(halachic) difficulties or conflicts are about a question as to(sic) the standard, and whether is it high enough [narrow way].

To question whether the standard of Judaism is high enough? Is not a 'whole sale rejection of Judaism? And this is not offensive to Jews in what way? You want us to treat our fathers like Messianics treat the church fathers? And oppose all that they are to foster a new Judaism opposed and better than the one we have now? A Judaism that rejects the former generation of Jewish halacha?

Halacha is fluid in Judaism yes, but it's not whole sale replaced with each generation, by any individual who identifies with Judaism. Even Recon embraces halacha for communal purposes.

Why do so many Messianics continue to base their faith and theology on the perceived faults of others? Instead of basing it on the accomplishments of Yeshua within our very lives?

Messianic Judaism is not about being better/higher than the Pharisee's, that was not the point of Yeshua's remark. One step better than the existing Jews.... is going to cause me to be drawn to your message in what way? Would your excuse for me be that I have not (yet?) received the Spirit to lead me to this?

I don't believe this 'one step better' reasoning has anything to do with my relationship with Messiah. Does not making it an issue cause the division and second class feelings? Isn't this one step better reasoning really only based on jealousy and envy, which shouldn't even be there in the first place? If we are all equal, why are we constantly told to be 'better' than others in here? We are equal they are unbalanced? We are right, they are wrong? This is the way to live for Messiah? This is the Spirit's lead and the Fathers will? Being one step better than esav?

Shouldn't we be offering our lives as a step for those perceived lost lawbreakers to use as a footstool to reach our Messiah? Instead of continually pulling it out from under their feet because well, they are one step below us? When someone waits for another to catch up they usually don't mock them for being behind, they back track and help them gain the ground they were loosing. If you think we are one step behind shouldn't your Messianic reaction be to take a step back and help support the lager on up, together? Instead of continually shining the perceived light in our eyes from above so as to blind us?

Does not making this an issue continue the division here and second class feelings? Why are you intent on identifying the differences that oppose Messianic from Judaism within a forum that is supposed to promote the union of 'Messianic Judaism'?
 
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AbbaLove

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I think there is a significant different between "Messianic" Judaism from Judaism. These halacha difficulties or conflicts are not about whole sale rejection of Judaism but rather a question as the the standard and whether is it high enough [narrow way].
Jewish law forbids the use of fillets which do not have the scaled skin attached and are not recognisable as being from a kosher species unless a Rabbinic supervisor is present or the customer supervises the filleting of such fish. The supervisor should ensure that the knives and boards used are thoroughly clean before cutting commences. Should there be any doubt as to whether the fillets or cutlets have been cut with a clean knife, then the fish must be thoroughly washed in cold water before use. It is forbidden to purchase minced fish which has not been minced under the supervision of a Rabbinic supervisor. ... http://www.ka.org.au/index.php/component/option,com_kosherdb/Itemid,61/catid,34/subcatid,79/

Because carp have fins and scales they are considered a "kosher" fish; however, carp are bottom feeders loaded with cancer causing carcinogens from St. Paul/Mpls discharges and pesticides from agricultural runoff; especially in Pool 4 (Lake Pepin) of the Mississippi River. Lake Pepin Fisheries use to ship a million to a million and a half pounds of carp each year to markets in New York (e.g. Fulton Fish Market) and Chicago. It is one of the most polluted pools on the upper Mississippi R. Just one reason why most Minnesotans go to fresh water lakes in northern Minnesota or better yet to Canada for Walleye fishing.

Just because a fish is "kosher" doesn't mean it's healthy to eat. Many of the carp netted in Lake Pepin were served in Jewish owned Restaurants. Sometimes, the almightly dollar is just as important or possibly even more importaant than what's best for one's health.
http://www.bigrivermagazine.com/br.story.a.html (Carp -- Queen of Rivers or Pig With Fins)
 
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Lulav

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Never stated skate was declared kosher, just that it is in the same family as flounder.
If you wrote the OP then you did say that.

Most Jewish rabbinical authorities have determined that tunas, other scombrid fish (bonito, mackerel, wahoo), and flatfishes (brill, flounder, fluke, halibut, megrim, plaice, skate, sole, and turbot) are clean kosher fish.
 
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Lulav

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I do agree that just because something is declared kosher or given a certification as being Kosher it does not mean it's good for the body.
Many canned Kosher products contain MSG, kosher but not good for the body.
 
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big macher

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I think there is a significant different between "Messianic" Judaism from Judaism. These halacha difficulties or conflicts are not about whole sale rejection of Judaism but rather a question as the the standard and whether is it high enough [narrow way].

Where did you come up with this? LOL
 
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visionary

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Skate (fish), Family: Rajidae


European flounder, Family: Pleuronectidae

Gulf flounder, Family: Paralichthyidae

Southern flounder, Family: Paralichthyidae

Summer flounder, Family: Paralichthyidae

Winter flounder, Family: Paralichthyidae

Olive flounder, Family: Paralichthyidae
Flounder listed under kosher
http://www.jsor.org/shortfishlist.pdf
 
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Hoshiyya

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"They have ALSO determined that a fish with ANY AMOUNT of scales, even just a few minute or microscopic scales, is considered a scaled fish."

That certainly sounds un-intuitive. If the ancients were not able to determine scales on the fish, then the fish has no scales, for purposes of Kashrut.
 
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Hoshiyya

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QFF (quoted for fact) You believe there is a huge difference between MJ and Judaism? Is this why you see it your duty to identify these differences here? Messianic Judaism has always been based upon the unique connection between the two, not the contrast differences.

Here is what your sentence means when properly structured...
These halacha(halachic) difficulties or conflicts are about a question as to(sic) the standard, and whether is it high enough [narrow way].

To question whether the standard of Judaism is high enough? Is not a 'whole sale rejection of Judaism? And this is not offensive to Jews in what way? You want us to treat our fathers like Messianics treat the church fathers? And oppose all that they are to foster a new Judaism opposed and better than the one we have now? A Judaism that rejects the former generation of Jewish halacha?

Halacha is fluid in Judaism yes, but it's not whole sale replaced with each generation, by any individual who identifies with Judaism. Even Recon embraces halacha for communal purposes.

Why do so many Messianics continue to base their faith and theology on the perceived faults of others? Instead of basing it on the accomplishments of Yeshua within our very lives?

Messianic Judaism is not about being better/higher than the Pharisee's, that was not the point of Yeshua's remark. One step better than the existing Jews.... is going to cause me to be drawn to your message in what way? Would your excuse for me be that I have not (yet?) received the Spirit to lead me to this?

I don't believe this 'one step better' reasoning has anything to do with my relationship with Messiah. Does not making it an issue cause the division and second class feelings? Isn't this one step better reasoning really only based on jealousy and envy, which shouldn't even be there in the first place? If we are all equal, why are we constantly told to be 'better' than others in here? We are equal they are unbalanced? We are right, they are wrong? This is the way to live for Messiah? This is the Spirit's lead and the Fathers will? Being one step better than esav?

Shouldn't we be offering our lives as a step for those perceived lost lawbreakers to use as a footstool to reach our Messiah? Instead of continually pulling it out from under their feet because well, they are one step below us? When someone waits for another to catch up they usually don't mock them for being behind, they back track and help them gain the ground they were loosing. If you think we are one step behind shouldn't your Messianic reaction be to take a step back and help support the lager on up, together? Instead of continually shining the perceived light in our eyes from above so as to blind us?

Does not making this an issue continue the division here and second class feelings? Why are you intent on identifying the differences that oppose Messianic from Judaism within a forum that is supposed to promote the union of 'Messianic Judaism'?

I have no problem with Vis sharing that certain fish that have been declared kosher may not be kosher.

In Judaism, if one has a choice between two traditions/ways, one is ideally expected to choose the stricter way (or so I have heard Rabbis say).
Vis is pointing to a more careful, a more strict, way.

"To question whether the standard of Judaism is high enough? Is not a 'whole sale rejection of Judaism?"

Very dramatic.
It is certainly not a wholesale rejection of Judaism to not eat flounder.
 
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Hoshiyya

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What I am suggesting is that MJ hold a standard that might be more defined that what current K or other symbols cover. We might need our own symbol.

And there are different standards in Judaism. Orthodox Ashkenazi hold by different standards than Sfardim. In the Talmud itself there is some discussion as to what is Kosher. It is pretty obvious to me camel is not Kosher, but apparently some Rabbis in Talmud disagreed.
 
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visionary

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Wading through all this, MJ needs to adopt their own standard, their own halacha. So many times we look to Judaism [various factions] to get some starting point, because scripture doesn't go into the details and we look to see how they understood it. But with Yeshua we should re-evaluate what we swallow as kosher.
 
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Hoshiyya

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Wading through all this, MJ needs to adopt their own standard, their own halacha. So many times we look to Judaism [various factions] to get some starting point, because scripture doesn't go into the details and we look to see how they understood it. But with Yeshua we should re-evaluate what we swallow as kosher.

That would imply that those scattered narrow path individuals are supposed to have enough organization to be able to create some symbol representing their common Kashrut understanding, and then getting that symbol printed on the products of various manufacturers. I would have wanted this in the past, but see it is not the current reality, nor the plan of God for this soon-to-end age.
 
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