Logical Problems with Calvinism
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Marvin Knox
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I agree with the head scratch on this point.Ahh, but I thought Received just answered your longstanding questionHe said, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day."
But if the Father draws EVERYONE, then John 6:44 tells us that EVERYONE .............
I've been saying the very same thing myself.
This passage, IMO, comes under the systematic theology heading of "Well Duhh".
The meaning of the passage is a no-brainer. That's why most good commentaries get it right.
If there seems to be a Calvinistic meaning to the passage (and there is), people should just learn to live with it.
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FreeGrace2
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Except this view is refuted by Jesus Himself who said this:
“Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live." John 5:25
Note that it does NOT SAY "the regenerated will hear". It SAYS "the dead will hear".
How can the "dead" hear anything, according to Calvinistic thinking? They can't. They can't even believe, yet Jesus Himself said that the dead with hear and "will live". Oh, THEN regeneration. How about that!!
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FreeGrace2
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Except there's not a hint of any verse in the Bible that indicates that any person has the "power" to give away his salvation. And being saved isn't something being "forced" on someone. At salvation, the person is changed into a new creature. Once reborn, that is permanent.
No one can be un-born. iow, one's birth, whether physical or spiritual, cannot be undone. That is impossible.
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FreeGrace2
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It makes just as much sense as the fact that Christ died for everyone. Both are clearly and plainly stated in Scripture.
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Actually, the dead hearing His voice, is they are dead and He makes them alive who are dead, so He regenerates the dead. Those who hear Him speak, live. The only way a dead man can hear is a supernatural miracle, an act of God.
That they hear, means this a directed word, a targeted word of God to a particular person. Since obviously not all are made alive, of necessity then, not all hear Him speak to them.
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How did Lazarus hear being dead?
Yet Lazarus comes forth alive from the tomb.
Is that any different really, than God raising the dead by speaking to them as Christ says?
If you can believe the one, why not the other?
Yet Lazarus comes forth alive from the tomb.
Is that any different really, than God raising the dead by speaking to them as Christ says?
If you can believe the one, why not the other?
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Marvin Knox
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You don’t think that the Holy Spirit testifying to our spirit (which is regeneration in Calvin speak) is the voice of the Son of God?
"seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow." 1 Peter 1:11
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Dead men do not hear in the natural God regarding being made alive for salvation purposes, unless God regenerates them. He does this by speaking to them to come alive.
Maybe he says to them 'live'.
God speaks everything into existence, so why not dead men also?
Matthew 4:4New American Standard Bible (NASB)
4 But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.’”
God has spoken to spiritually dead men, like Balaam. And they are staying dead.
Maybe he says to them 'live'.
God speaks everything into existence, so why not dead men also?
Matthew 4:4New American Standard Bible (NASB)
4 But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.’”
God has spoken to spiritually dead men, like Balaam. And they are staying dead.
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AndOne
Deliver me oh Lord, from evil men
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Hamster probably didn't see it since you didn't use the quote function - convenient....
The verse doesn't mention the heart - still waiting on that from you. Apply the same standards to yourself that you do to us please and find a verse that actually says Saul was given a new heart. Thanks.
Regardless the context of the verse is speaking of a singular event which may or may not include regeneration.
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Skala
I'm a Saint. Not because of me, but because of Him
Actually, the same is true of non-Calvinism (Arminianism, etc). Except in Arminianism it's called "prevenient grace" not "irresistible grace". Thus, your #1 bullet point should read:
According to Arminianism, man is unable to come to salvation by his own power, and can only come to salvation through prevenient grace.
Therefore, the exact same flow of arguments works equally against your own position, too:
- If man is unable to come to salvation by his own power, then he can't help but sin (there is no middle ground between faith and sin).
- Therefore, according to Arminianism, man can't help but sin.
- Blame implies freedom, such that a person can only be blamed for what he's free to accept or reject. I.e., you can't blame a person for doing that which he can't help but do.
- Arminianism holds that the individual isn't free to accept or reject God except through prevenient grace.
- Therefore, Arminianism shouldn't place blame on sinners, given that blame implies a freedom to accept or reject God that isn't possible without prevenient grace.
- However, Arminianism does place blame on sinners; therefore Arminianismis logically inconsistent.
tldr; I love when synergists forget their own theology!
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Actually, it's precisely the freedom to reject grace that makes up non-Calvinist theology. So I diagree: irresistible grace is one thing, and prevenient grace is another, namely resistible grace.
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I agree with the head scratch on this point.
I've been saying the very same thing myself.
This passage, IMO, comes under the systematic theology heading of "Well Duhh".
The meaning of the passage is a no-brainer. That's why most good commentaries get it right.
If there seems to be a Calvinistic meaning to the passage (and there is), people should just learn to live with it.
I'm glad to hear you admit that Calvinists and their commentaries have no brains.
(Relax, that's a joke.)
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That makes no sense. It looks like you are saying irresistible grace provides people with the ability to sin. Or something like that. Can you clear it up for me? (Or maybe I'm just tired
The idea is that you can't help but sin given that the opposite of sin is faith, which is provided only through irresistible grace. Therefore, since sin is necessary, it's like a rock that necessarily falls. It makes no sense to blame people for what they can't help do, and this includes God.
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Out of the heart the mouth speaks or in this case typesI'm glad to hear you admit that Calvinists and their commentaries have no brains.
(Relax, that's a joke.)
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Out of the heart the mouth speaks or in this case types
I'm sure you're the type of guy who thinks Jesus never laughs.
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It seems to go something like this:
- Believe something that makes theological sense but doesn't make philosophical or logical sense (e.g., a theology that involves reproaching nonbelievers for not believing, which is possible only through an irresistible grace that God alone gives).
- Believe that because (you think) God does it, it's therefore good.
- Illogical stuff is bad, and God only does good stuff.
- Therefore, God isn't illogical because he's good.
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Actually there is one honorable mention for Christ rejoicing.
Where He says God has hidden the gospel from certain people and revealed it to others.
Jesus Rejoices in the Spirit
21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight. 22 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.”
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I knew you'd use a verse like this.
Fruits of the spirit, sdowney. I don't seem to remember that these fruits only apply to people whose theology you agree with.
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