Vatican issues new document on Christian-Jewish dialogue

visionary

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The separation of the Church from the Synagogue does not take place abruptly however and, according to some recent insights, may not have been complete until well into the third or fourth centuries. This means that many Jewish Christians of the first period did not perceive any contradiction between living in accordance with some aspects of the Jewish tradition and yet confessing Jesus as the Christ.
And there should have never been any "perceived" contradiction by the gentiles either.
 
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Norbert L

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Steve Petersen

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I don't see POTUS, Parliament or any other government of this world using the words “Nostra aetate” any time soon. That's not what CNN, BBC or any other major news media outlet will use as a headline.

So how will that translate into everyday life?

Don't know for sure. In Jewish thought, Esau/Edom is a metaphor for the Roman Catholic Church. A sign of the Messianic era is the reconciliation between Jacob (Judaism) and Esau (Christianity.)
 
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danny ski

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Don't know for sure. In Jewish thought, Esau/Edom is a metaphor for the Roman Catholic Church. A sign of the Messianic era is the reconciliation between Jacob (Judaism) and Esau (Christianity.)
I don't know where's this coming from, but, I assure you, there's no such sign among us. Why? The messianic prophecies were written hundreds of years before Christianity even existed and they don't mention any religion reconciling with Judaism.
 
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Steve Petersen

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I don't know where's this coming from, but, I assure you, there's no such sign among us. Why? The messianic prophecies were written hundreds of years before Christianity even existed and they don't mention any religion reconciling with Judaism.

'At the end of the tannaitic period, and still more in the amoraic, the identification became very widespread, and the overwhelming majority of homilies about Edom speak explicitly of Rome. Thus it was stated that Rome was founded by the children of Esau, and Rome was identified as one of the cities of the chiefs of Esau enumerated at the end of Genesis 36 (these identifications occur not only in the Midrashim and the Talmuds but also in the Palestinian *Targums of the Torah and in the Targums to Lamentations and Esther). At a still later period the term became a synonym for Christian Rome and thence for Christianity in general, and allusions were even found to *Constantinopleamong the cities of Edom (and see *Caesarea).'

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0006_0_05562.html
 
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danny ski

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'At the end of the tannaitic period, and still more in the amoraic, the identification became very widespread, and the overwhelming majority of homilies about Edom speak explicitly of Rome. Thus it was stated that Rome was founded by the children of Esau, and Rome was identified as one of the cities of the chiefs of Esau enumerated at the end of Genesis 36 (these identifications occur not only in the Midrashim and the Talmuds but also in the Palestinian *Targums of the Torah and in the Targums to Lamentations and Esther). At a still later period the term became a synonym for Christian Rome and thence for Christianity in general, and allusions were even found to *Constantinopleamong the cities of Edom (and see *Caesarea).'

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0006_0_05562.html
It's a streach, an overreach. Biblically and historically.
 
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Dave-W

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I don't know where's this coming from, but, I assure you, there's no such sign among us. Why? The messianic prophecies were written hundreds of years before Christianity even existed and they don't mention any religion reconciling with Judaism.
Perhaps because Christianity and Judaism should NOT be looked at as separate religions. (at least not biblically)
 
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Steve Petersen

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It's a streach, an overreach. Biblically and historically.

From the Jewish Encyclopedia:

'The name "Edom" is used by the Talmudists for the Roman empire, and they applied to Rome every passage of the Bible referring to Edom or to Esau. In Leviticus Rabbah (xiii.) Rome, under the name of "Edom," is compared to a boar, and the symbolic name "Seir" was used by the poets of the Middle Ages not only for Rome (comp. Ecclus. 1. 26, Hebr.), but also for Christianity (Zunz, "Literaturgesch." p. 620). On this account the word "Edom" was often expunged by the censor and another name substituted (Popper, "Censorship of Hebrew Books," p. 58). In place of "Edom," the word "Ḥazir" (swine) was occasionally used, perhaps as a mere term of reproach (but see Epstein, "Beiträge zur Jüd. Alterthumskunde," p. 35). In Midrash Tanḥuma Bereshit, Hadrian is called "the King of Edom." The Talmudists, however, made an exception in favor of Antoninus Pius, whom they assured would attain paradise, because he had not acted in the manner of Esau ('Ab. Zarah 10b). 'Abodah Zarah 10a, however, explaining Obadiah, verse 2, says that Edom had neither written nor spoken language. This is inconsistent with its application to Rome. See Teman.'
 
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danny ski

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From the Jewish Encyclopedia:

'The name "Edom" is used by the Talmudists for the Roman empire, and they applied to Rome every passage of the Bible referring to Edom or to Esau. In Leviticus Rabbah (xiii.) Rome, under the name of "Edom," is compared to a boar, and the symbolic name "Seir" was used by the poets of the Middle Ages not only for Rome (comp. Ecclus. 1. 26, Hebr.), but also for Christianity (Zunz, "Literaturgesch." p. 620). On this account the word "Edom" was often expunged by the censor and another name substituted (Popper, "Censorship of Hebrew Books," p. 58). In place of "Edom," the word "Ḥazir" (swine) was occasionally used, perhaps as a mere term of reproach (but see Epstein, "Beiträge zur Jüd. Alterthumskunde," p. 35). In Midrash Tanḥuma Bereshit, Hadrian is called "the King of Edom." The Talmudists, however, made an exception in favor of Antoninus Pius, whom they assured would attain paradise, because he had not acted in the manner of Esau ('Ab. Zarah 10b). 'Abodah Zarah 10a, however, explaining Obadiah, verse 2, says that Edom had neither written nor spoken language. This is inconsistent with its application to Rome. See Teman.'
It's, as you mentioned, a metaphor. And nothing else. A name of one hated entity is applied to another and another. But, there's nothing else there.
 
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Steve Petersen

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The pig will one day 'return' to Israel. This is Esau/Edom. Esau/Edom is Rome, Christianity (see posts 6 and 9 above):

'The Pig Returns, This is Esau
It says in the midrashim of our Sages that the 4 Kingdoms [in which Israel is exiled] (Bavel, Yavan (Greece), Madai, and Edom [Rome]) are likened to the 4 animals which are mentioned explicitly in the verse that forbids eating them because they only possess one sign of purity.

In this itself there are 2 parts:
1) "the camel and the hare and the badger, because they chew their cud but they do not have split hooves;
2) "the pig because it possesses split hooves but does not chew its cud".

The camel and the hare and the badger refer to Bavel, Yavan, and Madai, and the pig refers to Edom [Rome], as in: "the pigs of the forest ravage it"(Psalms 80:14) -- "just as a pig at the time he wallows [in the filth] sticks out his forelegs and says ‘look, I am pure’, so, too, the kingdom of Edom…"(Vayikra Raba 13) For this reason it is mentioned separately [as explained by Rabbeinu Bachaye] "in order to show that it [the fourth exile, the exile of Edom] is a lengthy exile in and of itself and is equal to all the others."

Via "our actions and our avoda" in the exile of Edom we bring about the refinement of Edom, as our Sages say, "in the future the pig will become pure" (for at that time it will possess both signs [of being pure] – split hooves and raising the cud), as the closing words of the Midrash "the pig this is Edom, which does not chew its cud and is not followed by any kingdom after it". Why is the pig called "chazir", for it returns the crown to its master, as we say: "the saviors ascended to Mount Zion to judge Mount Esau and to G-d will be the Kingship", for then will be fulfilled the promise to Yaakov: "until I come to my master in Se'ir" [upon which Rashi comments] "when will he go – in the days of Moshiach, as it says ‘the saviors shall ascend to Mount Zion to judge Mount Esau’. (Gen. 33:14)'

[Lubavitcher Rebbe, Hisva'aduyot 5750 I, p. 351]​

http://www.chabad.org/kabbalah/article_cdo/aid/2518058/jewish/Permitting-the-Pig.htm
 
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Norbert L

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Don't know for sure. In Jewish thought, Esau/Edom is a metaphor for the Roman Catholic Church. A sign of the Messianic era is the reconciliation between Jacob (Judaism) and Esau (Christianity.)
I just ran across this in regards to Jewish NT thought, how James uses the words of the prophet Amos and substitutes "mankind" for "Edom". I found it interesting and it reminded me of your comment. I'm not sure how relevant it is to the topic but it does show that somehow in his mind, Edom is regarded as mankind and not just some metaphor for the RCC.

James: "After this I will return, and I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen; I will rebuild its ruins, and I will restore it, that the remnant of mankind may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who are called by my name, says the Lord, who makes these things known from of old." Acts 15

Amos: "In that day I will raise up the booth of David that is fallen and repair its breaches, and raise up its ruins and rebuild it as in the days of old, that they may possess the remnant of Edom and all the nations who are called by my name" Amos 9
 
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Steve Petersen

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I just ran across this in regards to Jewish NT thought, how James uses the words of the prophet Amos and substitutes "mankind" for "Edom". I found it interesting and it reminded me of your comment. I'm not sure how relevant it is to the topic but it does show that somehow in his mind, Edom is regarded as mankind and not just some metaphor for the RCC.

James: "After this I will return, and I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen; I will rebuild its ruins, and I will restore it, that the remnant of mankind may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who are called by my name, says the Lord, who makes these things known from of old." Acts 15

Amos: "In that day I will raise up the booth of David that is fallen and repair its breaches, and raise up its ruins and rebuild it as in the days of old, that they may possess the remnant of Edom and all the nations who are called by my name" Amos 9

Not sure, I suspect that it may have something to do with the close spelling of 'adam' (mankind) and Edom in Hebrew. If the Septuagint was the source for the Amos quote, or some other Greek source is, perhaps this accounts for the difference:

https://books.google.com/books?id=M-oXuG_2wLIC&pg=PA171&dq=amos+9:12+septuagint+versus+acts+15&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjZmeXfzerJAhUILSYKHZwDD6IQ6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q=amos 9:12 septuagint versus acts 15&f=false
 
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BelieveTheWord

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I just ran across this in regards to Jewish NT thought, how James uses the words of the prophet Amos and substitutes "mankind" for "Edom". I found it interesting and it reminded me of your comment. I'm not sure how relevant it is to the topic but it does show that somehow in his mind, Edom is regarded as mankind and not just some metaphor for the RCC.

James: "After this I will return, and I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen; I will rebuild its ruins, and I will restore it, that the remnant of mankind may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who are called by my name, says the Lord, who makes these things known from of old." Acts 15

Amos: "In that day I will raise up the booth of David that is fallen and repair its breaches, and raise up its ruins and rebuild it as in the days of old, that they may possess the remnant of Edom and all the nations who are called by my name" Amos 9
The quote is from the Septuagint. It uses "men" or "mankind".
 
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danny ski

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After reading it, I don't really see reconciliation that makes our beliefs compatible with those of the Papacy or vice versa. I see this as fence mending exercise. The main message seems to be "leave the Jews be". Which is all we ever wanted from the Christians. In that I support these efforts wholeheartedly.
 
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Steve Petersen

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AThe main message seems to be "leave the Jews be". Which is all we ever wanted from the Christians. In that I support these efforts wholeheartedly.

The document also repudiated Replacement Theology and upholds the Torah as still valid for the Jewish people.

Historically, this is really big. Christian theology has said the exact opposite for several hundred years.
 
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Steve Petersen

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This is an excerpt from a document published by several Orthodox rabbis just before the release of the Vatican document.

"Both Jews and Christians have a common covenantal mission to perfect the world under the sovereignty of the Almighty, so that all humanity will call on His name and abominations will be removed from the earth. We understand the hesitation of both sides to affirm this truth and we call on our communities to overcome these fears in order to establish a relationship of trust and respect. Rabbi Hirsch also taught that the Talmud puts Christians “with regard to the duties between man and man on exactly the same level as Jews. They have a claim to the benefit of all the duties not only of justice but also of active human brotherly love.” In the past relations between Christians and Jews were often seen through the adversarial relationship of Esau and Jacob, yet Rabbi Naftali Zvi Berliner (Netziv) already understood at the end of the 19th century that Jews and Christians are destined by G-d to be loving partners: “In the future when the children of Esau are moved by pure spirit to recognize the people of Israel and their virtues, then we will also be moved to recognize that Esau is our brother.”​

Initial signatories (in alphabetical order):

Rabbi Jehoshua Ahrens (Germany)
Rabbi Marc Angel (United States)
Rabbi Isak Asiel (Chief Rabbi of Serbia)
Rabbi David Bigman (Israel)
Rabbi David Bollag (Switzerland)
Rabbi David Brodman (Israel)
Rabbi Natan Lopez Cardozo (Israel)
Rav Yehudah Gilad (Israel)
Rabbi Alon Goshen-Gottstein (Israel)
Rabbi Irving Greenberg (United States)
Rabbi Marc Raphael Guedj (Switzerland)
Rabbi Eugene Korn (Israel)
Rabbi Daniel Landes (Israel)
Rabbi Steven Langnas (Germany)
Rabbi Benjamin Lau (Israel)
Rabbi Simon Livson (Chief Rabbi of Finland)
Rabbi Asher Lopatin (United States)
Rabbi Shlomo Riskin (Israel)
Rabbi David Rosen (Israel)
Rabbi Naftali Rothenberg (Israel)
Rabbi Hanan Schlesinger (Israel)
Rabbi Shmuel Sirat (France)
Rabbi Daniel Sperber (Israel)
Rabbi Jeremiah Wohlberg (United States)
Rabbi Alan Yuter (Israel)

Subsequent signatories:

Rabbi Herzl Hefter (Israel)
Rabbi David Jaffe (USA)
Rabbi David Kalb (USA)
Rabbi Shaya Kilimnick (USA)
Rabbi Yehoshua Looks (Israel)
Rabbi Ariel Mayse (USA)
Rabbi David Rose (UK)
Rabbi Zvi Solomons (UK)
Rabbi Yair Silverman (Israel)
Rabbi Daniel Raphael Silverstein (USA)
Rabbi Lawrence Zierler (USA)​

http://cjcuc.com/site/2015/12/03/orthodox-rabbinic-statement-on-christianity/
 
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In Genesis Jacob never fully reconciled with Esau, I believe that is prophetic for today.

32:3 And Jacob sent messengers before him to Esau his brother unto the land of Seir, the country of Edom...................
6 And the messengers returned to Jacob, saying, We came to thy brother Esau, and also he cometh to meet thee, and four hundred men with him. 7 Then Jacob was greatly afraid and distressed: and he divided the people that was with him, and the flocks, and herds, and the camels, into two bands; 8And said, If Esau come to the one company, and smite it, then the other company which is left shall escape.​

Jacob divided up his house to help preserve some of it if Esau sought to slaughter them.

10 I am not worthy of the least of all the mercies, and of all the truth, which thou hast shewed unto thy servant; for with my staff I passed over this Jordan; and now I am become two bands. 11 Deliver me, I pray thee, from the hand of my brother, from the hand of Esau: for I fear him, lest he will come and smite me, and the mother with the children​

Now before he meets up with Esau Jacob is changed into Israel.

28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed​



And God said unto Jacob, Arise, go up to Bethel, and dwell there: and make there an altar unto God, that appeared unto thee when thou fleddest from the face of Esau thy brother.

2 Then Jacob said unto his household, and to all that were with him, Put away the strange gods that are among you, and be clean, and change your garments: 3 And let us arise, and go up to Bethel; and I will make there an altar unto God, who answered me in the day of my distress, and was with me in the way which I went.
 
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