Why do people believe in a Rapture?

BABerean2 said in post 4657:

There is no 8th trumpet...

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That's right, in that there are only 7 trumpets during the tribulation (Revelation 8:1-2). But note that there will be a subsequent, post-tribulation trumpet (Matthew 24:29-31), which will be, in effect, an 8th trumpet. Also, regarding the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15-19), note that it, unlike the 8th trumpet, doesn't refer to any coming of Jesus. Instead, Revelation 11:15 refers to the future point in time (Revelation 4:1b) when Jesus will take ultimate, legal, physical authority over the earth, away from Satan (cf. Luke 4:5-7) and Satan's fallen angels (Ephesians 6:12), and away from the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:4-18, cf. Revelation 12:9) and the Antichrist's 10 kings (Revelation 17:12-13). It won't be until a little later that Jesus will take de facto, physical control of the earth at his 2nd coming and during the subsequent millennium (Revelation 19:11 to 20:6).

Jesus' 2nd coming won't occur immediately after the sounding of the tribulation's 7th trumpet and the declaration of the legal replacement of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5 year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18, Revelation 12:6,14) with Jesus' reign (Revelation 11:15). For a "time" (Revelation 11:18) can last awhile (cf. Revelation 12:14). It is like if someone said: "It is time to sell this house"; this doesn't mean that it will get sold immediately. The only part of Revelation 11:18 which will happen immediately after the 7th trumpet sounds is "thy wrath is come". For the plagues of the vials (Revelation 16), the tribulation's final stage, will come out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1).

So the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15-19), even though it will be the last trumpet to sound during the tribulation, won't be the resurrection "last trump" of 1 Corinthians 15:52. The latter won't sound until after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16), which won't occur until Revelation 19, and which is when the church will be physically resurrected (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16).

Before the 2nd coming, the tribulation's final, Revelation 16 stage could last for 75 days. For the 1st vial in Revelation 16 could be poured out immediately after the 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign, which 1,260 days could begin when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36). And Jesus could return on the 1,335th day after the setting up of the abomination of desolation (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). An analogy for the possible 75-day vials-delay between Jesus taking legal possession of the earth (Revelation 11:15) and his return to take de facto, physical possession of it (Revelation chapters 19-20) would be someone in New York legally inheriting a house in California, 75 days before he moves there to live in that house.

At Jesus' 2nd coming, he will physically resurrect and judge only the church (1 Corinthians 15:21-23; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Psalms 50:3-6, cf. Mark 13:27), and then he will marry the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12). Then Revelation 19:11-21 will occur. So both the resurrection and the rewarding of the church spoken of in Revelation 11:18, as well as the destroying of the destroyers of the earth spoken of in Revelation 11:18, could occur 75 days after the 7th trumpet's sounding. And because a "time" can last awhile (cf. Revelation 12:14), this would still be well within the "time" referred to in Revelation 11:18.

Everyone not physically resurrected and judged at Jesus' 2nd coming won't be physically resurrected and judged until Revelation 20:11-15, which won't occur until sometime after the returned Jesus and the physically resurrected church have reigned on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). Both resurrections and judgments can still occur within Revelation 11:18's "time". For the original Greek word (kairos: G2540) translated there as "time" can refer to even quite a long period. For example, the same Greek word is used in 2 Corinthians 6:2 to refer to the "time" of people getting saved, which has been going on for thousands of years.

Bible2+ said:

Note that those people can simply be mistaken. Also, regarding Isaiah 2:10-21, note that the day of the Lord there has to begin at the 2nd coming, not at the start of the tribulation. For during the 2nd half of the tribulation, it is Satan (the dragon) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") who will be exalted by the world (Revelation 13:4-18), not the Lord, contradicting "the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day" (Isaiah 2:17).

Also, during the 2nd half of the tribulation, the world will worship the ultimate idol, the image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:14-15), contradicting that in that day "the idols he [the Lord] shall utterly abolish" (Isaiah 2:18).

So the people hiding in the rocks at the 2nd coming (Isaiah 2:19-21) has to be a separate instance from the people hiding in the rocks at one point during only the 1st stage of the tribulation (Revelation 6:15-16). It's not like people can hide in rocks only one time. Some people did it way back in 1 Samuel 13:6, for example. And Hosea 10:8b refers to the fall of Samaria in 722 BC (Hosea 10:7-8). And Luke 23:30 can include reference to the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD (Luke 23:28-30). So Revelation 6:16 can be just one more instance, years before the 2nd coming in Isaiah 2:10-21, where "the glory of his majesty" is the same as in Matthew 24:30, at the 2nd coming. .

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I disagree with the premise that those people, who are every living person on earth, Revelation 6:15, are wrong or lying when they say; Fall on us and hide us for the wrath of Almighty God has come and who can stand?
This idea is simply ludicrous, as the sun is darkened, as terrible earthquakes hit, as meteors shower down, etc, it WILL be that Day. This is logical too, as this disaster will set the scene for the establishment of a One World Govt and for the Lord's people to travel to and live in all of the Holy Land.
Jesus will Return years later, after all that is prophesied for the last days has taken place.

II Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

II Thessalonians 2:2 "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand."

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come,except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

Jesus Christ is not gathering anyone to Him, nor is He coming here to earth, except there be a falling away first. The word for "falling away", in the Greek is "apostasy". Jesus told us in His revelation to John, in Revelation 9:11, that "Apollyon" is one of Satan's names, and this name is derived from the word apostasy.

The word "perdition" means "one that perishes". Satan and only Satan has already been condemned to die [to perish] by God. Satan's judgment day has come already back in the first earth age, and he will have no part in the Great White Throne judgment, or any other judgment yet to come. He has already been judged, and sentence by God to death "perdition" [Ezekiel 28 covers this judgment].


What did Paul say again?

Jesus Christ is coming back to this earth, but the saints of Christ will not be gathered to Him until the "son of perdition" [Satan] be revealed first. How will we know who he is when he arrives?

Revelation 17:8 "The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is [shall come]."

This beast "thou [John] sawest", was in the first earth age; and is not on this earth now, as it is written in Revelation 12:7. Satan is in heaven being our accuser, and will be cast out to this earth very shortly by Michael.

"And shall ascend out of the bottomless pit; and go into perdition;" Who is he again? He is Satan the Antichrist. Satan is not a man born of woman, but a "supernatural arch angel". In Ezekiel 28 it is written that Satan [Lucifer] is the most beautiful of all God's created beings.

In Isaiah 14:12; "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lu'-ci-fer [day star], son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!" Lucifer then is another name for Satan; he is also called the Dragon, the serpent, and many other names accounting for the roles he plays, and in our generation he will also be called the "Antichrist".

Isaiah 14:13; "For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:"

Satan is saying, I'm going to be God, and be above the sons [stars] of God. The "mount of the congregation" is on mount Zion; and that is "the side of the north" where Jesus Christ's temple will be.

Isaiah 14:14; "I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High." Satan is saying again, he is going to be God.

Isaiah 14:15; "Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell [sheol], to the sides of the pit."

Who is this that is going into the pit? Who is this son of perdition? It is Lucifer, who is Satan, the "son of perdition". The "son of perdition" of II Thessalonians 2:3 is none other than Satan himself, coming to earth to play the role of Jesus Christ. Paul then is saying that the true Christ, Jesus Christ, will not return to earth until this "apostasy" takes place first.

Isaiah 14:16; "They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;"

Following Jesus Christ's return to earth, and when the Antichrist [Satan] is safely in the pit; the world will wonder; how could Satan have shook all the kingdoms? They simply can't believe that they were deceived into believing this man to be God. Are you going to be one of those deceived into believing Satan is the Christ, or do you know the difference?

Paul is saying to the Thessalonians that Jesus Christ will not come, or will their be a gathering of the saints until you see the Antichrist [son of perdition] first. It takes a lot of guts to take the word of a false preacher, over Paul, Jesus, John, Isaiah, and a whole host of other prophets and disciples. This "apostasy" [falling away] is caused by the "son of perdition", and you will see him live and in person, very shortly.

II Thessalonians 2:4 "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

The "Son of perdition" is Satan and Isaiah just told us this very same thing. Remember, the temple of God is on mount Zion, and "on the side of the North". This person sitting there is sitting in God's seat, pretending to be God: "Showing himself that he is God."

Do you know what Jesus said about this very thing. Jesus called it in Matthew 24:15, the very same thing that Daniel called it in Daniel 9:27; "the Abomination of desolation". A more correct translation in the "James Moffatt translation Bible" is called "The abomination by the desolator".

"Satan claiming to be God" is the abomination, and "he" [Satan] is the desolator, for the entire world will believe him; except for God's elect, and all those who have the seal of God in their minds [foreheads]. The sealed of God have their gospel armor on, and they are ready to face Satan and his system in the spiritual warfare.

To say that Christ can return at any moment is not biblical.

Lamad said #4693

I guess it went right over your head that you had to ADD MEANING to make your theory work!

You really didn’t just say this “ADD MEANING to make your theory work!” Over 50 translations disagree with you on this point. The ones that do say “departure” do not say departure of the church . Some actually say departure from the faith . I’ve never witnessed such desperation as you have on this passage of scripture.

Can you make "departure" (from the faith) fit someone being "taken out of the way?" Then can you fit "departure" (from the faith) as the event that must come first so that the man of sin is revealed in 3b?

You don’t need to. You are the only one I can remember ever arguing this point. Departure from the faith is one thing, taken out of the way is another.

Is this "departure" (from the faith)a VERY SIGNIFICANT one....significant enough that all would recognize it as what Paul was talking about? For example, HOW MANY must fall away before we would know it was THE falling away?

Why would we need to know the exact number that fall away? The scripture does not say the falling away causes the man of sin to be revealed. The “he” taken out of the way allows that. That “he” is absolutely not the church or the Holy Spirit. When the antichrist is revealed you will know it.

You see, you just created MORE problems!

No you have tried to create a problem by asking a question that matters not to try and save your theory based on weak at best arguments with no basis in scripture.

By the way, in case you missed it: Jesus could come TOMORROW or TONIGHT for His bride. Will YOU be watching?

I’m looking for Jesus to come right when He and Paul said He would come. Immediately after the tribulation , after the man of sin is revealed.

Nothing in scripture says Jesus can come tomorrow, scripture does give us signs when that time is near. Jesus said “Immediately after the tribulation” Matt 24:29, “When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand” Matt 24:15, “except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;” 2 Thess 2:3b. Many other signs are given in scripture. Show us the scripture for an imminent return of Christ.


Why does this go right over your head, you are the one adding meaning to make your theory work. You ignore all plainly worded text on this subject, by interpreting them out of existence. All I can read from you and others is we don’t understand, we don’t see it , if we had ears to hear, if we want an appointment with wrath go ahead.

I once saw it your way and then I started ignoring what the books, teachers, and preachers said on the rapture, I had to re-examine what I and been taught and had taught others, and started studying my bible on this topic and what I found is quite different from what you are promoting. Without “adding meaning” you cannot come up with one clear scripture that says pretrib, you have to interpret every single one of them to your liking. To borrow a word from some of the posts on this site pretib is a “COBWEB” of private interpretation, misinformation, opinion and arguments hidden behind an air of superior spirituality, name calling , pride and just plain ole’ confusion.

Am I clear enough here? Can I get an amen from someone.

Look 234 pages well over 4000 posts and we have accomplished very little . We go around the same old bush make the same old arguments. The idols of pet doctrine reign supreme here. Scripture and what it plainly states is not respected , opinion rules the dialogue. I do not need someone to interpret the word "end" "last" "immediately" and "apostasia" they are self explanatory. If we would just stick with what scripture plainly tells we would have a lot less disagreements. Unfortunately one cannot stay with plain wording of scripture and find a pretrib rapture.

Bible2+ said:

That's right, in that there are only 7 trumpets during the tribulation (Revelation 8:1-2). But note that there will be a subsequent, post-tribulation trumpet (Matthew 24:29-31), which will be, in effect, an 8th trumpet. Also, regarding the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15-19), note that it, unlike the 8th trumpet, doesn't refer to any coming of Jesus. Instead, Revelation 11:15 refers to the future point in time (Revelation 4:1b) when Jesus will take ultimate, legal, physical authority over the earth, away from Satan (cf. Luke 4:5-7) and Satan's fallen angels (Ephesians 6:12), and away from the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:4-18, cf. Revelation 12:9) and the Antichrist's 10 kings (Revelation 17:12-13). It won't be until a little later that Jesus will take de facto, physical control of the earth at his 2nd coming and during the subsequent millennium (Revelation 19:11 to 20:6).

Jesus' 2nd coming won't occur immediately after the sounding of the tribulation's 7th trumpet and the declaration of the legal replacement of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5 year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18, Revelation 12:6,14) with Jesus' reign (Revelation 11:15). For a "time" (Revelation 11:18) can last awhile (cf. Revelation 12:14). It is like if someone said: "It is time to sell this house"; this doesn't mean that it will get sold immediately. The only part of Revelation 11:18 which will happen immediately after the 7th trumpet sounds is "thy wrath is come". For the plagues of the vials (Revelation 16), the tribulation's final stage, will come out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1).

So the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15-19), even though it will be the last trumpet to sound during the tribulation, won't be the resurrection "last trump" of 1 Corinthians 15:52. The latter won't sound until after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29-31; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16), which won't occur until Revelation 19, and which is when the church will be physically resurrected (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16).

Before the 2nd coming, the tribulation's final, Revelation 16 stage could last for 75 days. For the 1st vial in Revelation 16 could be poured out immediately after the 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign, which 1,260 days could begin when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36). And Jesus could return on the 1,335th day after the setting up of the abomination of desolation (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). An analogy for the possible 75-day vials-delay between Jesus taking legal possession of the earth (Revelation 11:15) and his return to take de facto, physical possession of it (Revelation chapters 19-20) would be someone in New York legally inheriting a house in California, 75 days before he moves there to live in that house.

At Jesus' 2nd coming, he will physically resurrect and judge only the church (1 Corinthians 15:21-23; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Psalms 50:3-6, cf. Mark 13:27), and then he will marry the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12). Then Revelation 19:11-21 will occur. So both the resurrection and the rewarding of the church spoken of in Revelation 11:18, as well as the destroying of the destroyers of the earth spoken of in Revelation 11:18, could occur 75 days after the 7th trumpet's sounding. And because a "time" can last awhile (cf. Revelation 12:14), this would still be well within the "time" referred to in Revelation 11:18.

Everyone not physically resurrected and judged at Jesus' 2nd coming won't be physically resurrected and judged until Revelation 20:11-15, which won't occur until sometime after the returned Jesus and the physically resurrected church have reigned on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). Both resurrections and judgments can still occur within Revelation 11:18's "time". For the original Greek word (kairos: G2540) translated there as "time" can refer to even quite a long period. For example, the same Greek word is used in 2 Corinthians 6:2 to refer to the "time" of people getting saved, which has been going on for thousands of years.

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Bible2+ said:

That's right, in that there are only 7 trumpets during the tribulation (Revelation 8:1-2). But note that there will be a subsequent, post-tribulation trumpet (Matthew 24:29-31), which will be, in effect, an 8th trumpet.

My brother you have offered no proof this is true. Your above statement is based on the fact you assume your interpretation of the order of the book is correct. Calling for an eight trumpet appears to me, to be the same type of tactic used by pretribbers. The seventh trumpet cannot be the last trumpet because it will mess with your predetermined order of Revelation. You can declare an eighth, ninth, or however many trumpets you need but you haven’t shown that to be true from scripture.

Also, regarding the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15-19), note that it, unlike the 8th trumpet, doesn't refer to any coming of Jesus.

I disagree. The wording from Rev 10:7 “the mystery of God should be finished”. The wording from Rev 11:15 “the kingdoms of this world….” The wording from 11:18 “ the time of the dead, that they should be judged” “give reward unto thy servants the prophets and to the saints” all suggest the return of Christ even though it is not spelled out. There is no resurrection spelled out in Rev 19, but taken with Matt 24, 1 Thess 4, it doesn’t need to be. Too many other problems are created when one ignores the fact that many things in the book of Revelation overlap. Then to get around those problems one has to create an 8th trumpet or similar explanations.

Instead, Revelation 11:15 refers to the future point in time (Revelation 4:1b) when Jesus will take ultimate, legal, physical authority over the earth, away from Satan (cf. Luke 4:5-7) and Satan's fallen angels (Ephesians 6:12), and away from the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:4-18, cf. Revelation 12:9) and the Antichrist's 10 kings (Revelation 17:12-13).

Again you have offered no proof of this “refers to the future point in time”, just your opinion of the order of the book.

It won't be until a little later that Jesus will take de facto, physical control of the earth at his 2nd coming and during the subsequent millennium (Revelation 19:11 to 20:6).

Without using other coming of the Lord passages can you show a resurrection in Rev 19? I have in other posts given reason for why I believe Rev is not in chronological order. When I read your post I do not get the sense you are explaining anything, you quote a lot of scripture, declare that is the way it is and move on. To me it would be more helpful if you would use a little more explanation and a little less declaration.

keras said:

Satan’s Playground;“ Modern Day Religion”
One of the main reasons that modern day Christians are not eagerly preparing for God’s great harvest is a belief that the theory called ‘the rapture’ is God’s cure all in man’s existence. This unscriptural belief of a removal of living people to heaven, promotes the understanding that by maintaining some type of Christian appearance for security sake, the rapture will remove them from the Day of judgment or tribulation on the earth. This thought gives believers the idea there is nothing more to anticipate as coming from God but the future rapture of the church. This mind-set establishes for most the belief that if they can just hold on to some kind of Christian appearance until the rapture comes they will make heaven their home. This type of belief places believers into a state of idleness and complacency that causes them to miss some of God’s greater and better blessings.

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Ro 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Now look at what the Jews said about the things Jesus was teaching.

Joh 8:48 Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?

You think this same kind of people are not in the church today, having a zeal for God, but not in the "Knowledge" of "Righteousness"????

When you distill the plan of salvation it all comes down "having ears to hear" Jesus/God,

and you can't have the "Knowledge" of "Truth" until you have the ears to hear, because it's only revealed to those with ears to hear.

Jews believed with their "Knowledge" they had God's plan of salvation all figured out, and they didn't have a need of ears to hears Jesus,

so they rejected him.

Some Christians are the same way, they believe they have God's plan all figured out, so why the need to have ears to hear Jesus tell them what they already know when their carnal mind has alrady figured it out????

Mt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Short Timer said:

You think this same kind of people are not in the church today, having a zeal for God, but not in the "Knowledge" of "Righteousness"????

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Yes I do.
But you still haven't got the fact that it is all who truly believe in God and accept the atoning sacrifice of Jesus, who are deemed to be Israelites. Whether they belong to an established church or not, whether they are descended for Jacob or not and they are people from every tribe, race and language. Romans 9:6-8
There is therefore, no separation between church and Israel, only between those who love the Lord and those who reject Him. This truth refutes the rapture theory that demands a separate church and Israel.

n2thelight said in post 4663:

Revelation 17:8 "The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is [shall come]."

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One aspect of Revelation's beast is that it is a powerful fallen angel (referred to with a Greek masculine-pronoun "he" in Revelation 17:11) who is now literally in the bottomless pit and will ascend from it during the future tribulation to spiritually empower the empire of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Revelation 17:8-11), empire being a 3rd aspect of the beast, represented by the animal symbols of Revelation 13:1-2. The fallen-angel aspect of the beast could be the angelic prince whom Satan had assigned to spiritually empower the ancient empire of Babylon, just as Satan had assigned other fallen angelic princes to spiritually empower the subsequent ancient empires of Persia and Greece (Daniel 10:13,20). When the ancient empire of Babylon was defeated, the fallen angelic prince empowering it could have been cast into the bottomless pit. This same fallen angel could be released to empower a revival of the empire of Babylon during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (of Revelation 13:5-18).

The release of the powerful fallen angelic prince of Babylon from the bottomless pit could occur at the same time as the unbinding of 4 other powerful fallen angels now bound at the Euphrates (Revelation 9:14b), who could have been bound there at the fall of the ancient empire of Babylon. When these 4 fallen angels are released at one point during the future tribulation, they will cause an army of 200 million strange horse-like beings to kill 1/3 of mankind (Revelation 9:15-19). This could be done in order to make mankind completely desperate before its takeover by Satan and the Antichrist mid-tribulation, when Satan and his fallen angels will be cast down from heaven to the earth permanently after losing a mid-tribulation war in heaven (Revelation 12:7 to 13:18).

n2thelight said in post 4663:

He is Satan the Antichrist.

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Note that Satan (the dragon, Revelation 12:9) isn't the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast"), but the one who will empower the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4; 2 Thessalonians 2:9), and who will be worshiped along with the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4). The Antichrist will be cast into the lake of fire over 1,000 years before Satan is cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 19:20 to 20:10). The Antichrist and Satan are shown to be separate persons also in Revelation 16:13. But Satan could spiritually enter the man who is the Antichrist, just as Satan spiritually entered Judas (Luke 22:3).

n2thelight said in post 4663:

The "son of perdition" of II Thessalonians 2:3 is none other than Satan himself, coming to earth to play the role of Jesus Christ.

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Note that when Satan (Lucifer, the dragon) is cast down to the earth permanently at the midpoint of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Revelation 12:9,12), he won't claim to be "Jesus" Christ, just as the separate Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast, the man of sin: 2 Thessalonians 2:3b-4,9, Revelation 13:4-18) won't claim that Lucifer (or claim that he, the Antichrist) is "Jesus" Christ. For "anti"-Christ means someone who denies that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22).

But Christians do need to be aware that during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18), even though the world will consciously and openly worship both Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9), this won't require that the Antichrist's one-world religion will say that Jesus is evil, or will turn the world against Jesus. For almost the entire world reveres Jesus, at least as being a good man. The Antichrist could confirm this basic world belief, but simply (in his words) "clarify" that while Jesus is indeed a good man, he isn't the Christ or the Son of God (1 John 2:22). No doubt the Antichrist will also deny that Jesus died on the Cross for our sins, as this, just as believing that he is the Christ and the Son of God (John 20:31, John 3:36), is one of the core beliefs of the gospel by which people become saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

So what the Antichrist could do is keep the idea of a good Jesus, but strip it of everything by which Jesus saves people from hell. And this wouldn't require that the Antichrist deny Jesus' 2nd coming. Indeed, the Antichrist and his False Prophet (Revelation 19:20) could even try to employ to their own ends the Biblical prophecy of Jesus' 2nd coming, as well as the Muslim prophecy which says that the miracle-working prophet Jesus will return bodily from heaven in the last days to bring the whole earth into the worship of the true God. For the False Prophet could claim that he is Jesus returned. And he could perform amazing miracles (Revelation 13:13) as purported proof of his claim (cf. John 3:2). This is one reason why it is important to know when and how the real Jesus' 2nd coming will happen (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21).

Once the False Prophet by his amazing miracles has brought the world under his spell (Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), including many Muslims and Christians who may not care much for scriptural dogma, but could go wild over his signs and wonders, he could begin to (in his words) "restore to the world the real message which was spoken by me (Jesus) at my first coming, and by the great prophet Mohammed, but which message became corrupted by power-hungry men when they copied and changed the early manuscripts of the Bible and the Koran". He could then gradually initiate the world into the Antichrist's Gnostic Luciferianism (1 John 4:3, Revelation 13:4-6), a religion which could have existed since ancient times in some "mystery" cults, and which still exists today in the highest degree of initiation of a worldwide secret society. The False Prophet could present his miraculously calling fire down from heaven (Revelation 13:13) as purported proof that Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist are the true God (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9), in an inversion of how back in Old Testament times, Elijah miraculously called fire down from heaven to prove that YHWH is the true God (1 Kings 18:37-39).

The person whom the Antichrist will revile is YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36), whom many people mistakenly think of as being (in their words) "the God of only the Old Testament, that cruel and hateful God who commanded people to commit genocide and kill babies (1 Samuel 15:3), whereas Jesus came and preached love for everyone (Matthew 5:44)". The truth is that Jesus confirmed that the God of the Old Testament, YHWH (Deuteronomy 6:4-5, Leviticus 19:18), is the same as the God of the New Testament (Mark 12:29-31), and that the Old Testament is true (Matthew 5:17-18, Luke 24:44-48). Jesus died for our sins in fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy from YHWH (Isaiah 53; 1 Peter 2:24). And he rose from the dead in fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy from YHWH (e.g. Psalms 16:10, Acts 2:31). Jesus died to establish the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28), which YHWH had foretold in the Old Testament (Jeremiah 31:31-34). And Jesus died to bring about the defeat of Satan (Hebrews 2:14), which YHWH had foretold from even the 1st book of the Old Testament (Genesis 3:15).

Nonetheless, building on many people's misconceptions of YHWH as being (in their words) "the cruel God of the Old Testament", no doubt one of the Antichrist's chief blasphemies against YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36) will be that YHWH is an evil god. This is one of the ancient blasphemies of Gnosticism, another being the antichrist lie that Christ isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7). The world will be deceived into completely rejecting YHWH, and worshipping Satan and the Antichrist instead (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9). But Satan might not be worshipped as "Satan", which most everyone sees as a bad name (it means "Adversary"), but as "Lucifer" (Isaiah 14:12), which means "the morning star". The Antichrist could falsely say that it is YHWH who is the true "Satan", the true "Adversary" of mankind. And he could claim that even 2 Samuel 24:1 and 1 Chronicles 21:1 together prove this by showing that it was the single entity of YHWH/Satan who moved David to number Israel. Of course, the truth is that 2 Samuel 24:1 and 1 Chronicles 21:1 together simply show that YHWH used Satan to move David. YHWH elsewhere rebuked Satan (Zechariah 3:2), so they are in no way the same entity.

Because the Antichrist and his False Prophet (possibly masquerading as Jesus) will deny that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22), and will deny that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3), and because they will bring the unsaved world into the worship of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) instead (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9), they could falsely say that (the non-mortal flesh) Lucifer is the Christ, that the new name of Christ (Revelation 3:12c) is "Lucifer Christ". For just as "Lucifer" means "the morning star", so Christ is the morning star (Revelation 22:16b). Also, Christ identified himself with the serpent (John 3:14), and Lucifer is the serpent (Revelation 12:9). Also, Christ said "Ye are gods" (John 10:34), and it was the serpent who said "ye shall be as gods" (Genesis 3:5).

But the truth is that Lucifer fell from his office of morning star (Isaiah 14:12) and became Satan (cf. Luke 10:18). Jesus Christ has taken over the office of morning star (Revelation 22:16). And Jesus Christ identified himself with only the brass serpent on the pole in Numbers 21:8-9 (John 3:14), which typified Jesus Christ's crucifixion for our sins (John 19:16, Matthew 26:28). And in John 10:34, Jesus Christ (John 20:31) was quoting YHWH in Psalms 82:6-7, which shows that even though humans have knowledge of good and evil as gods do (Genesis 3:22), they will still die like humans (Psalms 82:7), contradicting the serpent's lie (Genesis 3:4). Nonetheless, the Antichrist could falsely say that Lucifer is the Christ and the true and beneficent God of mankind, and that the False Prophet is the miracle-working prophet Jesus (cf. John 3:2, Acts 3:22-24), returned to point the world to the true Christ/God. The Antichrist could falsely say he (the Antichrist) is the human/divine "Son" of Lucifer, who must be worshipped as God along with Lucifer (Revelation 13:4,8). This would be similar to how Biblical Christians rightly worship the human/divine Jesus Christ (John 1:1,14) as YHWH God (the Son) along with YHWH God the Father (John 20:28, Hebrews 1:8).

Near the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, unclean spirits like frogs will come out of the mouths of Lucifer, the Antichrist, and the False Prophet (Revelation 16:13). And these unclean spirits like frogs will go forth and perform amazing miracles to convince the world's armies to gather together at Armageddon (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel) (Revelation 16:16) in an attempt to fight and defeat YHWH himself (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19). After gathering together at Armageddon, the armies will travel south and pillage Jerusalem, right before the real Jesus (who is YHWH: John 10:30) returns from heaven and defeats them completely (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:20 to 20:3).

n2thelight said in post 4663:

To say that Christ can return at any moment is not biblical.

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That's right (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

Postvieww said in post 4664:

When the antichrist is revealed you will know it.

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That's right.

For the Antichrist will fulfill 2 Thessalonians 2:3b-4 after he by force takes control of a future, 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem, stops the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices which the ultra-Orthodox Jews will have restarted in front of it, and has the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the temple (Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15).

The Antichrist could then make quite a show of his sitting himself in the temple and declaring himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31). In a television and internet spectacle which will be seen live by the world, he could first be shown entering the temple's most holy place in magnificent golden robes. He could then step up to the Ark of the Covenant (which could have been discovered, and placed in the temple by the Jews) and lift the Mercy Seat off the Ark, showing it to be empty. He could then look into the camera and say: "Where is YHWH? He is not here! He is a distant fraud! His power on this earth is as hollow as this empty Ark!" (The Antichrist will utterly revile YHWH: Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36.)

Then the Antichrist could raise the Mercy Seat high above his head only to suddenly smash it down violently to the ground, breaking it into pieces. The piped-in sound of crowds roaring with approval could then be heard in the background. Then the Antichrist could place his hands on the Ark and stare into the camera: "WE can do better than this". He could then knock over the Ark and stamp it with his foot, bashing in its side. Two of the Antichrist's followers in robes could then quickly come in and clear away the rubble of the Mercy Seat and the Ark, while 4 strong men in robes carry into the temple's most holy place a magnificent golden throne and place it right where the Ark had been before. The men could then bow down and motion with their arms for the Antichrist to sit on the throne. He could then grandly take his seat upon it.

Glorious symphonic music could then swell as the sound of crowds roaring with approval increases. Then the Antichrist's False Prophet (Revelation 19:20) (who could be an apostate pope) could enter the temple's most holy place and approach the Antichrist carrying a majestic golden crown encrusted with large diamonds and all kinds of precious stones. The Antichrist could take the crown from the pope's outstretched hands. And as the Antichrist is placing the crown on his own head, a camera could zoom in on his face as he says: "I AM THAT I AM. I AM YOUR GOD. WORSHIP ME, ALL YE NATIONS OF THE EARTH!"

(cf. Revelation 13:8, Daniel 11:36; 2 Thessalonians 2:4)

Postvieww said in post 4664:

Am I clear enough here? Can I get an amen from someone.

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Amen.

*******

Postvieww said in post 4665:

There is no resurrection spelled out in Rev 19, but taken with Matt 24, 1 Thess 4, it doesn’t need to be.

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That's right.

For the 2nd-coming resurrected church (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16) is mentioned in Revelation 20:4-6, just as the 2nd-coming married church is mentioned in Revelation 19:7.

For Revelation 20:4-6 doesn't mean (as is sometimes claimed) that only those people in the church who will be beheaded by the Antichrist will be resurrected in the 1st resurrection and reign with Jesus during the millennium. For the 1st resurrection will be the physical resurrection of the dead of the entire church (of all times) at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). And every obedient person in the church (of all times) will reign on the earth with Jesus during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10).

Also, Revelation 20:4-6 doesn't mean (as is sometimes claimed) that the 1st resurrection will happen sometime after Revelation 19:7 to 20:3. For just as the gathering together (rapture) of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) will happen right before Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, so will the 1st resurrection. For the resurrection of the church (of all times) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52) will immediately precede the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:15-16).

Revelation 20:4-6 simply means that the obedient part of the church (of all times), which by that time will have already been resurrected, gathered together, and married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7), will then live and reign with him on the earth during the millennium. In Revelation 20:4, the original Greek word (zao: G2198) translated as "and they lived" means just that. It doesn't mean "and they resurrected" at the time of Revelation 20:4-6. After those resurrected in the 1st resurrection have lived through the millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-10), everyone else who has ever died will be resurrected in a 2nd resurrection, at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15).

Postvieww said in post 4665:

Again you have offered no proof of this “refers to the future point in time”, just your opinion of the order of the book.

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What was meant was that Revelation 11:15 refers to a future point in time to us (Revelation 4:1b), not to the time of Revelation 11:15. That is, at the very moment that the 7th trumpet sounds in our future, Jesus will take ultimate, legal, physical authority over the earth, away from Satan (cf. Luke 4:5-7) and Satan's fallen angels (Ephesians 6:12), and away from the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:4-18, cf. Revelation 12:9) and the Antichrist's 10 kings (Revelation 17:12-13). But it won't be until 75 days after the 7th trumpet sounds that Jesus will physically return and take de facto, physical control of the earth (Revelation 19:11 to 20:6).

Short Timer said in post 4666:

Mt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

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Matthew 7:21-23 shows that both faith and obedience to God are required for believers to enter ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 5:9, James 2:24). But there is no assurance that they will choose to obey (Matthew 25:26,30, Luke 12:45-46).

Matthew 7:23a could be hyperbole (like Matthew 23:24b is hyperbole). For Matthew 7:22 could refer to truly saved people, true believers in the gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, John 20:31), who had truly repented from their sins (1 John 3:6) and had truly performed many wonderful works for Jesus to the end (John 15:4-5). But at some point subsequent to their initial repentance, they had fallen back into some unrepentant sin (Matthew 7:23b; 2 Peter 2:20-22), so that they had to be completely rejected by Jesus in the end despite their continued faith and good works (1 Corinthians 9:27; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Hebrews 10:26-29).

Regarding the ability to cast out demons (Matthew 7:22), that is one of the signs that people are saved, that they are believers in the gospel (Mark 16:17). People must be very careful not to fall into the unforgivable presumption of Mark 3:22-30.

keras said in post 4667:

But you still haven't got the fact that it is all who truly believe in God and accept the atoning sacrifice of Jesus, who are deemed to be Israelites.

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Good point.

For just as the Gentile Ruth (a genetic forbear of Israel's Messiah: Matthew 1:5-16, Luke 3:23-32) could say to the Israelite Naomi "thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God" (Ruth 1:16), so Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29).

That is, all genetic Jews in the church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire church is the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). This is necessary, for all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the "one fold" of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). A genetic Gentile believer can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

Also, all those in the church, no matter whether they are genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews, if they have undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

Bible2+ said:

That's right.

For the Antichrist will fulfill 2 Thessalonians 2:3b-4 after he by force takes control of a future, 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem, stops the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices which the ultra-Orthodox Jews will have restarted in front of it, and has the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the temple (Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15).

The Antichrist could then make quite a show of his sitting himself in the temple and declaring himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31). In a television and internet spectacle which will be seen live by the world, he could first be shown entering the temple's most holy place in magnificent golden robes. He could then step up to the Ark of the Covenant (which could have been discovered, and placed in the temple by the Jews) and lift the Mercy Seat off the Ark, showing it to be empty. He could then look into the camera and say: "Where is YHWH? He is not here! He is a distant fraud! His power on this earth is as hollow as this empty Ark!" (The Antichrist will utterly revile YHWH: Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36.)

Then the Antichrist could raise the Mercy Seat high above his head only to suddenly smash it down violently to the ground, breaking it into pieces. The piped-in sound of crowds roaring with approval could then be heard in the background. Then the Antichrist could place his hands on the Ark and stare into the camera: "WE can do better than this". He could then knock over the Ark and stamp it with his foot, bashing in its side. Two of the Antichrist's followers in robes could then quickly come in and clear away the rubble of the Mercy Seat and the Ark, while 4 strong men in robes carry into the temple's most holy place a magnificent golden throne and place it right where the Ark had been before. The men could then bow down and motion with their arms for the Antichrist to sit on the throne. He could then grandly take his seat upon it.

Glorious symphonic music could then swell as the sound of crowds roaring with approval increases. Then the Antichrist's False Prophet (Revelation 19:20) (who could be an apostate pope) could enter the temple's most holy place and approach the Antichrist carrying a majestic golden crown encrusted with large diamonds and all kinds of precious stones. The Antichrist could take the crown from the pope's outstretched hands. And as the Antichrist is placing the crown on his own head, a camera could zoom in on his face as he says: "I AM THAT I AM. I AM YOUR GOD. WORSHIP ME, ALL YE NATIONS OF THE EARTH!"

(cf. Revelation 13:8, Daniel 11:36; 2 Thessalonians 2:4)



Amen.

*******



That's right.

For the 2nd-coming resurrected church (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16) is mentioned in Revelation 20:4-6, just as the 2nd-coming married church is mentioned in Revelation 19:7.

For Revelation 20:4-6 doesn't mean (as is sometimes claimed) that only those people in the church who will be beheaded by the Antichrist will be resurrected in the 1st resurrection and reign with Jesus during the millennium. For the 1st resurrection will be the physical resurrection of the dead of the entire church (of all times) at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). And every obedient person in the church (of all times) will reign on the earth with Jesus during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10).

Also, Revelation 20:4-6 doesn't mean (as is sometimes claimed) that the 1st resurrection will happen sometime after Revelation 19:7 to 20:3. For just as the gathering together (rapture) of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) will happen right before Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, so will the 1st resurrection. For the resurrection of the church (of all times) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52) will immediately precede the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:15-16).

Revelation 20:4-6 simply means that the obedient part of the church (of all times), which by that time will have already been resurrected, gathered together, and married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7), will then live and reign with him on the earth during the millennium. In Revelation 20:4, the original Greek word (zao: G2198) translated as "and they lived" means just that. It doesn't mean "and they resurrected" at the time of Revelation 20:4-6. After those resurrected in the 1st resurrection have lived through the millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-10), everyone else who has ever died will be resurrected in a 2nd resurrection, at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15).



What was meant was that Revelation 11:15 refers to a future point in time to us (Revelation 4:1b), not to the time of Revelation 11:15. That is, at the very moment that the 7th trumpet sounds in our future, Jesus will take ultimate, legal, physical authority over the earth, away from Satan (cf. Luke 4:5-7) and Satan's fallen angels (Ephesians 6:12), and away from the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:4-18, cf. Revelation 12:9) and the Antichrist's 10 kings (Revelation 17:12-13). But it won't be until 75 days after the 7th trumpet sounds that Jesus will physically return and take de facto, physical control of the earth (Revelation 19:11 to 20:6).

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Postvieww said in post 4665:

Again you have offered no proof of this “refers to the future point in time”, just your opinion of the order of the book.
Bible2+ said: in post #4669

What was meant was that Revelation 11:15 refers to a future point in time to us (Revelation 4:1b), not to the time of Revelation 11:15. That is, at the very moment that the 7th trumpet sounds in our future,

I can agree with your statement above this far.

Jesus will take ultimate, legal, physical authority over the earth, away from Satan (cf. Luke 4:5-7) and Satan's fallen angels (Ephesians 6:12), and away from the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:4-18, cf. Revelation 12:9) and the Antichrist's 10 kings (Revelation 17:12-13).

If I am understanding you correctly you are saying something akin to Jesus staking His claim from heaven prior to actually physically coming here. Since I believe you are aware of my position on Rev 11:15-19 I’ll not restate it here. If what I just stated above about your position is correct I contend you have still offered no scriptural evidence that is the case. Luke 4 just tells us satan has legal claim at this time, to earth, Eph 6:12 tells us our battle is with “the rulers of darkness of this world”. I agree with both of those passages completely.

But it won't be until 75 days after the 7th trumpet sounds that Jesus will physically return and take de facto, physical control of the earth (Revelation 19:11 to 20:6).

Now would you please explain how you arrive at “75 days after the 7th trumpet sounds”?

Please show your scripture references for that statement.

keras said:

Yes I do.
But you still haven't got the fact that it is all who truly believe in God and accept the atoning sacrifice of Jesus, who are deemed to be Israelites. Whether they belong to an established church or not, whether they are descended for Jacob or not and they are people from every tribe, race and language. Romans 9:6-8
There is therefore, no separation between church and Israel, only between those who love the Lord and those who reject Him. This truth refutes the rapture theory that demands a separate church and Israel.

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Ro 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they (Jews) are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

Jews didn't believe the gospel should be preached to unbelieving Gentiles because they didn't understand God's plan, and when they rejected Jesus the gospel/kingdom of God was taken from them, leaving them "Blind".

and you "Evidently" don't believe the Gospel is going to be give back and preached to them and the blinders coming off during the trib.

Jews can't give you an answer based on "Knowledge" of the scriptures to explain the temple being destroyed and sacrifices stopping,

And you can't give an answer based on "Knowledge" of the scriptures to explain why the Church will have to be taken out of the away before Israel can rebuild a temple and start sacrificing again.

Jews did have sufficient "Knowledge" of scripture to "Recognize" that the way God dealt with them in the OT was not the same way Jesus was dealing with them,

But many Christians don't have the knowledge to recognize even that difference,

which is why they don't understand why God stopped dealing with Israel when Jesus came, causing blindness to Israel, or why the blinders can't come off until Jesus/church leaves, or "Fulness" of giving the gospel to the Church/Gentiles".

But the "ROOT" of the problem for both Jews and Christians is the fact that neither one has "Ears to hear" the "TRUTH" (Jesus) or the "Humility" to open up those "ears".

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things,

And for many on both sides, they will have to be "in hell", "Living with the devil" (Trib period) before they find out just what "crucifying the body of sin" and "Pride" of the "Carnal mind" really means.

You and others don't have an explanation of why God would reserve a week of a prophecy concerning Israel to save a nations of "Unbelievers" like Israel.

If people believed your doctrine they would have to believe God was finished with Israel when Jesus came,

so from that point forward, like Israel, you have no explanation of scripture.

Bible2+ said:

Matthew 7:21-23 shows that both faith and obedience to God are required for believers to enter ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 5:9, James 2:24). But there is no assurance that they will choose to obey (Matthew 25:26,30, Luke 12:45-46).

Matthew 7:23a could be hyperbole (like Matthew 23:24b is hyperbole). For Matthew 7:22 could refer to truly saved people, true believers in the gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, John 20:31), who had truly repented from their sins (1 John 3:6) and had truly performed many wonderful works for Jesus to the end (John 15:4-5). But at some point subsequent to their initial repentance, they had fallen back into some unrepentant sin (Matthew 7:23b; 2 Peter 2:20-22), so that they had to be completely rejected by Jesus in the end despite their continued faith and good works (1 Corinthians 9:27; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Hebrews 10:26-29).

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Who were the biggest enemies of Jesus, the "Religious Leaders" of Israel, people who studied the scriptures and believed they knew the "TRUTH" of scripture when the "TRUTH" was standing there looking them straight in face and they still rejected the "TRUTH".

People who don't care much about God don't read study the scriptures, most will admit they don't know much about God and scripture

It's the people who read/study the scriptures and "profess to be wise" that create all these "false doctrines" and are the "biggest enemies of God".

They are the "Tares among the wheat" the "Blind leading the blind" and have become "Fools" in thinking God will accept whatever "SEEMETH RIGHT" to them as being the "TRUTH".

And like Israel, many will be burning in hell before they'll admit they were wrong.

The church is becoming just like Israel was, "Spiritually Poor", and the "Shekinah" of God (HG) is going to leave just as it left Israel when they were "Falling away",

only this time it's taking the "Accounted worthy" with it before it turns the devil loose on everything "Left Behind".

Jesus's biggest enemies are sitting on the pews and behind the Pulpit, the enemy from "within" is always worse then the enemy from without.

double post.

Short Timer said:

But many Christians don't have the knowledge to recognize even that difference, which is why they don't understand why God stopped dealing with Israel when Jesus came, causing blindness to Israel, or why the blinders can't come off until Jesus/church leaves, or "Fulness" of giving the gospel to the Church/Gentiles".

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I guess you will never get the fact the Jews are not Israelites, they are Judahite Israelis. Excepting those Messianic Jews who have accepted Jesus.
Your whole contention of the separation between the church and Israel is, I know, essential to the rapture theory, so you and all who grip onto the unscriptural notion of going to heaven, have to maintain that difference.
True Israelites in God's eyes are every righteous believer in Him. All the rest are the ungodly wicked gentiles. Simple as that!

The State of Israel, Judah faces judgement, along with all the Middle East, Amos 1:1-15, 2:1-5, Ezekiel 21:1-7

Postvieww said in post 4672:

Now would you please explain how you arrive at "75 days after the 7th trumpet sounds"?

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That is based on subtracting the 1,260 from the 1,335 in the paragraph below; and based on the plagues of the vials (Revelation 16), the tribulation's final stage, coming out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1).

Daniel 12:11-12 and Revelation 16:15 could mean that 1,335 literal days after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31), Jesus' 2nd coming will occur, and blessed are those believers who wait and remain obedient until that day. If the literal 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-8, Revelation 12:6) will begin when the abomination of desolation is set up, and if the 7 vials of God's wrath will begin on the day after the 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 11:15,19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1), and if the first 6 vials will be poured out over 30 days, then the 6th vial could be poured out on the 1,290th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11).

It is on this 1,290th day that the blessing of Daniel 12:12 and Revelation 16:15 could be given, after the 6th vial has been poured out (Revelation 16:12), encouraging those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time to keep holding on just 45 more days until Jesus' 2nd coming on the 1,335th day. The 45 days could be taken up by the gathering together of the world's armies to Armageddon (Revelation 16:14,16) (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel) and then their moving south to pillage Jerusalem, right before Jesus' 2nd coming and their total defeat (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:19-21).

keras said:

I guess you will never get the fact the Jews are not Israelites, they are Judahite Israelis. Excepting those Messianic Jews who have accepted Jesus.
Your whole contention of the separation between the church and Israel is, I know, essential to the rapture theory, so you and all who grip onto the unscriptural notion of going to heaven, have to maintain that difference.

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Guess you never learned the difference between the Northern and Southern Tribes.

True Israelites in God's eyes are every righteous believer in Him. All the rest are the ungodly wicked gentiles. Simple as that!

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If God is no respecter of persons, how can these "wicked Gentiles" be "enemies of the Gospel", but still "Elect" in the eyes of God???

The kind of ignorance you're showing wouldn't graduate you out of the K1 class on scripture.

The State of Israel, Judah faces judgement, along with all the Middle East, Amos 1:1-15, 2:1-5, Ezekiel 21:1-7

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And that is precisely why the church won't be here, Jesus had already suffer the Chastisement/Stripes/death in his flesh for Believers that God through the AC is going to lay on "ALL flesh" that is "Left behind", irregardless if the soul is saved or lost.

Including church members who have "quenched the spirit" by closing their ears/eyes.

Jesus said in his Father house, heaven, was many manisons, and he was going there to prepare a place for "US", that where he was, we would also be,

Now your doctrine is accusing Jesus of lying, saying we don't go to heaven.

So I can understand why you have no expectations of being rapture.

Short Timer said:

Guess you never learned the difference between the Northern and Southern Tribes.

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Your guess is wrong. I am well aware that the House of Israel has yet to rejoin with the House of Judah as per Ezekiel 37.

Short Timer said:

The kind of ignorance you're showing wouldn't graduate you out of the K1 class on scripture.

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And you obviously fail to comprehend Ephesians 2:11-18 and Romans 9:6-8, where we are plainly told that all who truly accept the Lord are deemed to be Israelites.

Short Timer said:

Now your doctrine is accusing Jesus of lying, saying we don't go to heaven.

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This is a rude and disgusting statement.
Jesus never told anything but the truth and it is you and all who believe the false rapture to heaven theory, who are the liars.
Jesus said: No one goes to heaven, except the One who came from heaven. John 3:13
Father, I do not ask that You take My people out of this world.... John 17:15
Where I go you cannot come.... John 7:34
You name is appropriate; the time is short. Time to get the truth of what God actually does plan for His people.

keras said:

True Israelites in God's eyes are every righteous believer in Him.

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I have difficulty with the way you put together terms. Such as righteous believer. You are adding a works based criteria to salvation when you make statements like that. It is a word game. Christians are righteous only because Jesus's perfect righteousness is imputed unto us. Salvation, everything is by Jesus, none of it is by us.

"True Israelites" is another one of those terms that is a word game. The bible is not saying "true" or "false". It simply says all Israel is not Israel, which means of the blood descendants of Jacob, of the twelve tribes, of them, not all are saved. It not saying that gentiles by virtue of having become Christians have become Israelites.

What the bible actually says that applies to both Jews and Gentiles is that when a person receives Jesus, they become a new
creation in Christ.