Why is the "Christian Right" not an oxymoron?

dogs4thewin

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Explain to me why that's a problem? Why is it a problem when poor people eat tasty food? Why does it upset you?
That is NOT a problem, but they do not need to eat the best quality food if they cannot afford it. Food can taste good and not be top of the line.
 
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dogs4thewin

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A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31 A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’

36 “Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?”

37 The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.”

Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”
Again in this story the person NEEDED help. He did nothing to cause the issue.
 
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morningstar2651

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I actually have. It is not about "Deserving" it is about helping yourself and not abusing good will.
You have shown no good will. You accuse the poor and the hungry of being abusive. The way you describe the poor is disgusting. Your love of money over your fellow man is quite clear. Remind me what the Bible says happens to those who refuse to help those that ask for it.

Why don't the poor, the homeless, and the starving just help themselves? That is exactly why you refuse to help them - because they don't fix their problems independently. They need help. They ask for help. You come up with a number of excuses why they don't deserve your help - why they haven't earned it.
 
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morningstar2651

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Again in this story the person NEEDED help. He did nothing to cause the issue.
Did the poor, the starving, and the homeless do something to cause their problems, thus absolving you of all responsibility for refusing to help? Where does Jesus say "Don't help people that caused their own problems"?
 
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stamperben

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Did the poor, the starving, and the homeless do something to cause their problems, thus absolving you of all responsibility for refusing to help? Where does Jesus say "Don't help people that caused their own problems"?
And it is fact that so many of the needy are that way because of a lousy economy and jobs that don't pay a living wage.
 
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morningstar2651

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To summarize the trajectory that the arguments against social safety nets have followed in this thread:
  • D: "The Bible seems pretty clear that Christians are required to help the poor, so why do so many Christians oppose the government helping the poor? Seems like it's contrary to their beliefs."
  • R: "I oppose welfare programs because charity should be voluntary."
  • D: "Okay. When was the last time you were voluntarily charitable?"
  • R: "I don't remember."
  • D: "That's not good...here are some charities you can donate to today."
  • R: "I don't want to."
  • D: "Why not? Why do you refuse to voluntarily help the poor?"
  • R: "Because they cause their own problems"
I think we're starting to get closer to the REAL reason you oppose welfare programs and social safety nets, and Jesus isn't a part of that reason.
 
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dogs4thewin

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You have shown no good will. You accuse the poor and the hungry of being abusive. The way you describe the poor is disgusting. Your love of money over your fellow man is quite clear. Remind me what the Bible says happens to those who refuse to help those that ask for it.

Why don't the poor, the homeless, and the starving just help themselves? That is exactly why you refuse to help them - because they don't fix their problems independently. They need help. They ask for help. You come up with a number of excuses why they don't deserve your help - why they haven't earned it.
I help the ones that truly need it and are willing to help themselves and IMPROVE their situation.
 
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dogs4thewin

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Did the poor, the starving, and the homeless do something to cause their problems, thus absolving you of all responsibility for refusing to help? Where does Jesus say "Don't help people that caused their own problems"?
IF they caused their OWN problems, BUT are making efforts to address them I have NO problem helping them.
 
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dogs4thewin

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How do you choose who to help?
For example, giving to places and help charities that have rules as to who can receive help OR have a group that makes that decision based on information presented. When I say rules I mean things such as income and job requirements not protected classes.
 
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morningstar2651

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For example, giving to places and help charities that have rules as to who can receive help OR have a group that makes that decision based on information presented. When I say rules I mean things such as income and job requirements not protected classes.
Can you give me more details? What criteria do you use?

For example, why would you refuse to donate to Feed my Starving Children or Meals on Wheels?
 
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dogs4thewin

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Can you give me more details? What criteria do you use?

For example, why would you refuse to donate to Feed my Starving Children or Meals on Wheels?
I would not refuse to donate in person OR through means besides online.
 
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dogs4thewin

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Can you give me more details? What criteria do you use?

For example, why would you refuse to donate to Feed my Starving Children or Meals on Wheels?
I would not refuse to donate in person OR through means besides online.
 
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bhsmte

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Can you give me more details? What criteria do you use?

For example, why would you refuse to donate to Feed my Starving Children or Meals on Wheels?

Have you ever done the assembly line thing for the bags of food for feed my starving children?

I had it down to a science and could get the bags to weigh within the range, virtually every time.
 
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RDKirk

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No where in the Bible does it say that we are to support others that REFUSE to support themselves.

God directed the Jews not to harvest to the edges of their fields, but to leave the edges for the poor to glean. A lazy man could not be prevented from gleaning in the fields.

Of course, if he were really, really lazy, he probably wouldn't bother gleaning. But if he got industrious just that one day, the fact that he'd been lazy all his life would not prohibit him from gleaning the edges of the fields. The obedience to God to provide for the poor was not dependent on any of the attributes of the poor.
 
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dogs4thewin

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Have you ever done the assembly line thing for the bags of food for feed my starving children?

no, but I would, and have done something sort of like that on a few different times.

I had it down to a science and could get the bags to weigh within the range, virtually every time.
God directed the Jews not to harvest to the edges of their fields, but to leave the edges for the poor to glean. A lazy man could not be prevented from gleaning in the fields.

Of course, if he were really, really lazy, he probably wouldn't bother gleaning. But if he got industrious just that one day, the fact that he'd been lazy all his life would not prohibit him from gleaning the edges of the fields. The obedience to God to provide for the poor was not dependent on any of the attributes of the poor.
Well, if the person was really lazy then they would not be out there.

Moreover, if the person is not WILLING to work then they should not eat. Paul says that, and even the Jews had to work the fields it is not like today where most people get MOST of their food from the store.

Let me asks you this point blank.

Are you OK with people who CAN work not working and expecting other people to provide for them?
 
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morningstar2651

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Well, if the person was really lazy then they would not be out there.

Moreover, if the person is not WILLING to work then they should not eat. Paul says that, and even the Jews had to work the fields it is not like today where most people get MOST of their food from the store.

Let me asks you this point blank.

Are you OK with people who CAN work not working and expecting other people to provide for them?
I'm okay with lazy people not starving to death. I have shared meals with the homeless. They're real people like you and me.

Why do you believe lazy people should starve and die? Is this a biblically motivated hatred?
 
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RDKirk

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Well, if the person was really lazy then they would not be out there.

Moreover, if the person is not WILLING to work then they should not eat. Paul says that, and even the Jews had to work the fields it is not like today where most people get MOST of their food from the store.

Let me asks you this point blank.

Are you OK with people who CAN work not working and expecting other people to provide for them?

See my post #138.

Why is the "Christian Right" not an oxymoron?
 
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dogs4thewin

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I'm okay with lazy people not starving to death. I have shared meals with the homeless. They're real people like you and me.

Why do you believe lazy people should starve and die? Is this a biblically motivated hatred?
Why do I believe that lazy people should starve? The Bible says you do not work you do not eat. Proverbs says that lazy hands make a man poor. One can be homeless and not be lazy those are different things. One can also have a home and yet be very lazy.
 
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dogs4thewin

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Actually, it says that only once, in 2 Thessalonians 3:10. Interestingly, Lenin also liked to quote it during the Russian Revolution as an aphorism for communism.

But in context:

2 Thessalonians 3:6 In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers, to keep away from every brother who is idle and does not live according to the teaching you received from us.
2 Thessalonians 3:7 For you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example. We were not idle when we were with you,
2 Thessalonians 3:8 nor did we eat anyone's food without paying for it. On the contrary, we worked night and day, laboring and toiling so that we would not be a burden to any of you.
2 Thessalonians 3:10 For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: "If a man will not work, he shall not eat."
2 Thessalonians 3:11 We hear that some among you are idle. They are not busy; they are busybodies.


What both the political right and political left love to forget is that none of this concerns the world at large or the actions of government. It all has to do with relations between believers in the Body of Christ, including working.

Paul did not give a fig about what Caesar was doing (and, btw, the Roman empire did have a free bread program for indigent Roman citizens). None of this has anything to do with what Caesar is doing, good or bad, or what taxes Caesar levies, for good or bad purposes. Jesus was not talking about that; Paul was not talking about that; Peter was not talking about that; James was not talking about that. This is all about the management of resources within the Body of Christ, and the point of that is for resources to flow through the Body so that every member of the Body has his needs met.

If my needs are met today--especially if I have good reason to believe I'll get paid again by the end of the week--then I should be checking whether everyone in my congregation is having his needs met. The congregation should have a mechanism to determine that.

If the needs of everyone in my congregation are being met, we should be looking at the next congregation; then the next state; then the next nation. Every Christian on earth should be having his needs met through the flow of resources within the Body of Christ.

It is not that there may be relief for others and hardship for you, but it is a question of equality— at the present time your surplus is available for their need, so their abundance may also become available for our need, so there may be equality. As it has been written:
The person who gathered much
did not have too much,
and the person who gathered little
did not have too little.
-- 2 Corinthians 8

A person might have had a excellent 9-5 job--but that's not what Paul is talking about. Paul is talking about working in and for the Body of Christ. As one of my former pastors has said: "Everyone in this congregation has a resource, everyone in this congregation has a need." It might not be about money: The congregation may pay the rent of the member who is an unemployed carpenter...but that carpenter will be expected to fix the porch of the member who is a widow on a small, fixed budget.
That is what I was saying people who will NOT work. I am not saying people who may not be currently working for PAY or even working in their normal job. I am talking about people who will NOT work. In your example, the person was willing to work in exchange for something OTHER than direct cash money. I am ALL for people trading if that is the way they wish to work if they cannot work for pay for a time. WILLING and ABLE are two very different things.
 
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