Logical Problems with Calvinism

Here is good information using the original greek words to understand 'whom He forknew' means foreloved.
Same as Ephesians 2, which is because of His great love for us, he made us alive who were dead.

http://thirdmill.org/studybible/note.asp/id/40912

Reformed theologians, however, point out that the Greek word proginosko, translated "foreknew" in Romans 8:29 and 11:2, means "foreloved" and "foreacknowledged" (cf. 1 Pet. 1:20, where proginoskois rendered "chosen before"). Passages such as the above make it clear that proginosko expresses foreknowledge of a person, not foreknowledge of mere facts about the future or a person's life choices. In effect, the New Testament teaches that God elected on the basis of his forelove and affection for those to whom he gave eternal life.

Besides, since all people are naturally dead in sin (i.e., cut off from the life of God and unresponsive to him), no one who hears the gospel will ever come to repentance and faith without the inner quickening that only God can impart (Eph. 2:4-10). Jesus said, "No one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him" (John 6:65; cf. John 6:44; 10:25-28). If God looks into the future to see what choices we make on our own, then he would only see only our firm rejection of the gospel. Sinners choose Christ only because God chose them for this choice and moved them to it by renewing their hearts. A person must first be "regenerated" before they are "converted" (repentance and faith).

Jason0047 said: ↑
I agree. For even the demons believe and tremble.

Received said:

That verse is such an incredible one. It seems to be saying that belief as cognitive assent (believing in your head, not your self, will and body included for action) is basically how the humans, er, demons believe.

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What the demons believe is that God is One, or monotheism, which was a Jewish idea. And that belief was from experience, not faith.

What it was not, was anything related to "saving faith". When we use James 2:18 as some kind of explanation about saving faith, we are comparing apples to oranges.

What the demons believe has no bearing on what humans must believe in order to be saved. Humans are trusting in the work of Christ on their behalf to save them. There is no such concept regarding demons. They've already been tried and convicted. They're just waiting for the sentence to be delivered.

I think the key to James 2:14-26 is found in v.19. The only way for others to see our faith is for us to demonstrate it before them. And v.15 and 16 is an example of hypocrisy, where one doesn't live out their faith.

Hypocrisy among Christians is quite common. I think it would be quite an error to dismiss all hypocrites as unbelievers. Christians can sin every sin committed by unbelievers.

James' point was for believers to live out their faith in front of others. So v.24 isn't about being justified in the eyes of God, but in the eyes of men.

Paul notes the 2 distinct perspectives quite clearly in 2 Cor 8:21 - For we are taking pains to do what is right, not only in the eyes of the Lord but also in the eyes of men.

Jason0047 said: ↑
Yes, I agree.

In fact, I believe salvation is in three stages.

1. Justification (Intial Salvation or Acceptance of Christ),
2. Sanctification (Continued Salvation and an obedience to Christ and His Word), and
3. Glorification (Final Salvation or Being Taken Home to be with Christ).

Side Note:

Granted, I believe #2 is God directed works done thru the believer once they submitted to the Lord and not man directed works. So a believer cannot boast in what he does (But they boast in the work Christ does thru them).

Received said:

Respectfully disagree. Again the question arises: why would God just go partway with some in expressing his works before they stopped being worked out? That either means he's not finishing the job because he can't (lack of omnipotence) or because he's toying with human beings.

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I think you've misunderstood Jason's correct stages. I explain salvation as in 3 tenses, rather than "stages" but the meaning is the same.

1. past tense: saved from the penalty of sin. Justification
2. present tense: saved from the power of sin. Sanctification
3. future tense: saved from the presence of sin. Glorification

These are biblical facts. Disagreeing with these points is to disagree with the Bible.

The point is the past tense is a FACT, already done. The present tense is to be fulfilled in each believer's life and isn't guaranteed at all, as Calvinism claims. Not all believers grow in grace, or grow up in their salvation. But they're commanded to do that. And the future tense will occur when the believer enters eternity.

Jason0047 said:

If a person is forever saved no matter what then everyone could then believe in Jesus and immediately turn back to their old life as if nothing ever happened. But it doesn't work like that.

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Actually, the Bible shows that possibility. King Saul was disobedient for most of his reign, and was killed by God for going to a medium, per 1 Chron 10:13,14 - 13So Saul died for his trespass which he committed against the LORD, because of the word of the LORD which he did not keep; and also because he asked counsel of a medium, making inquiry of it, 14and did not inquire of the LORD. Therefore He killed him and turned the kingdom to David the son of Jesse.

Yet, Samuel told Saul at the seance that he would join him the next day in 2 Sam 28:19. And we know where Samuel was residing after death; Paradise. Where Saul would join him.

A believer is changed spiritually and will bring forth fruit worthy of repentance. Why?

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The spiritual change refers to regeneration, or the new birth. But believers are commanded to produce fruit. It is not automatic. Our new birth is one kind of sanctification; we are set apart unto good works (Eph 2:10). But there is another kind of sanctification, which is progressive. This comes from growing up spiritually.

We are regenerated in order to be able to bring forth fruit. Apart from regeneration and the indwelling Holy Spirit, no believer would be able to produce fruit. But being regenerated doesn't necessarily mean every believer will do that.

Again, King Saul is just one example of a failed believer.

https://goshareyourfaith.wordpress....oginosko-in-the-new-testament/comment-page-1/
God is not looking into the future to see what you will do and reacting to that. Not a He knows you picked Him in the future, so He picks you.

FreeGrace2 said:

I didn't say it was either an entity or a commodity. I said it is a noun, meaning the "body of knowledge that is believed".

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That would be a commodity, then. An intellectual commodity.

It's very logical. The "body of knowledge" relating to saving faith is available to everyone who wants it.

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And that is a non-sequitur.

Cornelius is proof of that.

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No, all that is proved is that Cornelius was eligible to receive faith or capable of receiving it. It says nothing about the rest of the people.

FreeGrace2 said:

It's also significant that not all who are called are chosen.

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...further verifying the idea of Election?

Albion said:

...further verifying the idea of Election?

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I don't think so.

The Bible is very clear about the concept of "election". I think the error is in how Calvinism views it. Their claim is that God chooses who to save, and that this choice is NOT conditional, thereby meaning that God ultimately chooses who will believe, by way of regeneration.

None of that is taught in Scripture. What is taught is that God chooses to save those who believe, per 1 Cor 1:21.

Also, there are 6 different "categories" or descriptions of those described as "elect". And none of these categories involve being chosen for salvation.

Categories of Divine Election

1. Election of Christ: an individual election
1 Pet 2:6 Isa 28:16 Isa 42:1 Luke 9:35 Luke 23:35
2. Election of Angels: a group or corporate election
1 Tim 5:21
3. Election of Israel: a group or corporate election
Amos 3:2 Deut 7:6 Acts 13:17
4. Election of believers: a group or corporate election
Eph 1:4a [note: this verse doesn’t say that God chose who would be believers, but that He chose believers…to be holy and blameless]
1 Peter 2:9
5. The Election of the 12 Disciples: a group or corporate election John 15:16
6. The Election of Paul: an individual election Acts 9:15

If there are any other categories, I would be interested in knowing.

I am fully aware of 2 Thess 2:13, which doesn't teach that God chooses unconditionally who to save. The verse includes "belief in the truth", an obvious reference to the gospel message, which Paul said is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes (Rom 1:16).

And, the word "chose" is totally different from the words to indicate being "elect" or "chosen" in all the verses above.

Yes, God DOES choose to save those who believe. But that isn't election. Election is being chosen for "special privilege and service". This definition, which I found in the ISBE (International Study Bible Encyclopedia) perfectly fits ALL the 6 categories of election.

FreeGrace2 said:

I don't think so.

The Bible is very clear about the concept of "election". I think the error is in how Calvinism views it. Their claim is that God chooses who to save, and that this choice is NOT conditional, thereby meaning that God ultimately chooses who will believe, by way of regeneration.

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Wouldn't the verse we were talking about tend to verify that, then? If not, why not?

Jason0047 said:

You are making a huge superman leap of assumption in regards to John 3:19-21. John 3:20 merely says everyone who does evil hates the light. But then the second half of that verse says, "unless their deeds should be reproved or corrected." Meaning, that all those who do evil and are hating the light can be corrected. Nowhere does this passage say that those who are in darkness need to be regenerated so as to see. Actually it is the light of the gospel that shines to men in darkness that can change or correct them.

"In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them." (2 Corinthians 4:4).

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Before I present I case to you.A question for you.Can a sinner apart God's Grace choose contrary to their sinful nature? And if so,please provide scripture. Because where we differ,is in Free-will,and Bondage of the Will.If sinners are captives to their sins,then why does Christ say,He freed them from their bondage? Why does Paul warn the Galatians about being put back into bondage under the Law?

Hammster said:

If hearing is believing, then you believe that faith comes by believing. Is that really what you want to say?

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The Bibe is saying that the word "hearing" in Romans 10:17 is another way of saying "believing" in the Word. It is obvious that this is what it was talking about. For it is silliness to suggest that all people are automatically saved every time they hear or listen to the Bible. This believing of God's Word would not just be believing any passage in the Bible obviously, either. One cannot say they believe in the Song of Solomn and be saved. One must believe in the gospel so as to have faith in the Lord Jesus that results in salvation.


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ladodgers6 said:

Before I present I case to you.A question for you.Can a sinner apart God's Grace choose contrary to their sinful nature? And if so,please provide scripture. Because where we differ,is in Free-will,and Bondage of the Will.If sinners are captives to their sins,then why does Christ say,He freed them from their bondage? Why does Paul warn the Galatians about being put back into bondage under the Law?

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I believe I covered this within this thread already. Check out this post:
http://www.christianforums.com/threads/logical-problems-with-calvinism.7914236/page-37#post-68999051

And this post:
http://www.christianforums.com/threads/logical-problems-with-calvinism.7914236/page-43#post-69000147


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Hammster said:

Then you have to say that faith comes by believing (hearing). Can you affirm that?

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I believe I already just did. For that is what I was saying all along. Granted, one can hear the gospel and believe it by using their ears (i.e. hearing the gospel literally). But belief is included in that. Romans 10:17 is defining the word "hearing" as: "hearing / believing."

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FreeGrace2 said:

Actually, the Bible shows that possibility. King Saul was disobedient for most of his reign, and was killed by God for going to a medium, per 1 Chron 10:13,14 - 13So Saul died for his trespass which he committed against the LORD, because of the word of the LORD which he did not keep; and also because he asked counsel of a medium, making inquiry of it, 14and did not inquire of the LORD. Therefore He killed him and turned the kingdom to David the son of Jesse.

Yet, Samuel told Saul at the seance that he would join him the next day in 2 Sam 28:19. And we know where Samuel was residing after death; Paradise. Where Saul would join him.


The spiritual change refers to regeneration, or the new birth. But believers are commanded to produce fruit. It is not automatic. Our new birth is one kind of sanctification; we are set apart unto good works (Eph 2:10). But there is another kind of sanctification, which is progressive. This comes from growing up spiritually.

We are regenerated in order to be able to bring forth fruit. Apart from regeneration and the indwelling Holy Spirit, no believer would be able to produce fruit. But being regenerated doesn't necessarily mean every believer will do that.

Again, King Saul is just one example of a failed believer.

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I will try and reply to this tomorrow. May God bless you and please be well.

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Hammster said:

He said that faith is from within, and it can really be faith if God helps. That's pretty Pelagian.

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Yep - bad stuff