Why do people believe in a Rapture?

iamlamad said:

I guess it went right over your head that you had to ADD MEANING to make your theory work!

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There is no need for this kind of snide remark, or your capital letter 'yelling'.

By the way, in case you missed it: Jesus could come TOMORROW or TONIGHT for His bride. Will YOU be watching?

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I would assume that any Christian with an affinity for eschatology will be watching, from the most peaceful of times to the most turbulent of times. Perhaps you would do well to make the same charitable assumption of your fellow Christians.

iamlamad said:

ANY and EVERY Greek scholar will say that only one thing must come first, and then the man of sin can be revealed. Go ahead and count how many times you see "first?" I only count one. And any translation into English tells us the same thing.

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There is TWO things who must come BEFORE our GATHERING unto Jesus at His COMING.
1-a falling away
2- The man of Sin will be revealed.

2 Thessalonians 2
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, AND that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

iamlamad said:

What you are missing is this: Paul did not write that after the man of sin is revealed THEN will come the DAY. NO NO NO! Paul wrote that when the man of sin is revealed, at that time it will be INSIDE the DAY...as it in will have already started.

2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us--whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter--asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.

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You have twisted the meaning of the second verse by changing the last sentence .You have replaced IS AT HAND by
"has already come."

Here the original verse.
2 Thessalonians 2:2

2-That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

iamlamad said:

I guess it went right over your head that you had to ADD MEANING to make your theory work!

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No ,you have showed yourself the different meaning of the word Apostasia which are /Falling away and Departure./
The only way it can fit with THEOLOGY, Apostasia mean a falling away/departure from the faith ...
By the way this is the SCHOLAR THEOLOGICAL definition of the word Apostasia.

iamlamad said:

Can you make "departure" (from the faith) fit someone being "taken out of the way?"

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That is exactly the point. The one taken out of the way does not have to quit planet Earth to let the man of sin be revealed at the appointed time.No more than a doorman have to quit planet Earth to let someone enter in a place...

iamlamad said:

By the way, in case you missed it: Jesus could come TOMORROW or TONIGHT FOR HIS BRIDE. Will YOU be watching?

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Do you sleep sometime or are you always watching your eyes wide open day and night ?I go rather with what Paul wrote:

2 Thessalonians 2King James Version (KJV)
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

iamlamad said in post 4618:

But the truth of 2 Thes. 2 is that a departure is the ONLY thing that fits the entire context of the passage. First the THEME of the passage is THE departure or rapture or gathering. Second is the fact that in 3b the man of sin IS REVEALED.

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2 Thessalonians 2:3 refers to when an individual man will be revealed (i.e. without any remaining doubt) as being the Antichrist by his sitting (at least one time) in a future, 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaiming himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31, Matthew 24:15). This is one of the things which have to happen sometime before the future day of Jesus' 2nd coming and the gathering together (rapture) of the church (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8), immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). For at the 2nd coming, the Antichrist will be destroyed (2 Thessalonians 2:8b, Revelation 19:20).

iamlamad said in post 4618:

Paul begins verse 6 by saying, "and NOW you know..."

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When Paul says, regarding the restrainer, "now ye know what withholdeth" (2 Thessalonians 2:6), he was addressing the 1st century AD Thessalonians to whom he had previously explained everything in person (2 Thessalonians 2:5). That is, "now" included both a time in their past and their present, just as, for example, the "now" in 1 Thessalonians 3:8, Colossians 1:26, and 2 Timothy 1:10 included both a past time (compared with the exact moment those letters were first read) and the present.

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iamlamad said in post 4621:

There IS a reference to the rapture in the Old Covenant.

Isa 26:
19 But your dead will live, Lord; their bodies will rise—let those who dwell in the dust wake up and shout for joy—your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead.

20 Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until his wrath has passed by. 21 See, the Lord is coming out of his dwelling to punish the people of the earth for their sins. The earth will disclose the blood shed on it; the earth will conceal its slain no longer.

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Isaiah 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 ¶Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

Note that Isaiah 26:20 can start a new idea, a new paragraph, like is indicated in some copies of the KJV. And so nothing requires that Isaiah 26:20-21 has to happen after Isaiah 26:19. Instead, Isaiah 26:20-21 can be addressing those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at the time of the 7 vials of God's wrath (Revelation 16), the final stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. These believers will still be waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). And they won't be appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9). So Isaiah 26:20 can refer to them going into protective chambers which they will have prepared for themselves on the earth, just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had prepared for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:7).

Also, nothing forbids believers from preparing these chambers now, and hiding in them out in the wilderness at some point in our future (Revelation 12:6a), not only during the time of the 7 vials, but also during the just-preceding, literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6b) of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18). For his reign will involve the wrath of Satan coming against those in the church (not in hiding) who will still be alive on the earth at that time (Revelation 12:17, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

One way for believers to prepare these chambers would be for them to bury old shipping containers. Shipping and trucking companies could have such shipping containers stacked up in their back lots ready to sell cheap to anyone who will take them off their hands.

Once you have one or more shipping containers at your wilderness site, you can rent a bulldozer for a few days and dig big trenches in which to bury them. The trenches need to be deep enough so that you can pile 6 feet of dirt on top of the containers. For that much dirt is required to stop radiation from any nuclear fallout from reaching the containers. Also, 6 feet of dirt will serve as great insulation, so that no matter how hot or cold it gets on the surface, the shipping containers will always remain at a pleasant 68 degrees Fahrenheit (20 degrees Celsius).

Once you have put the shipping containers in their trenches, you can cut a manhole in the center of the top of each container, and then cut two smaller, 6-inch ventilation holes in the top of each end of each container. Then you can attach to each manhole a 7-foot-long vertical PVC pipe with the same diameter as the manhole, and attach to each ventilation hole a 7-foot-long vertical PVC pipe with the same diameter as the ventilation hole. Then you can use the bulldozer to carefully bury the containers, without breaking off the vertical pipes.

Then you can place a 14-foot ladder down the manhole pipe of each container. And you can go down into each container and place a small, battery-powered fan inside one of its ventilation holes, to be turned on whenever fresh air is needed in the container. Your containers will then be all set to start stocking with canned food, water, bedding, batteries, and all other needed supplies whenever you want to do that. You will then need to secure the top of each manhole-pipe with some sort of thick PVC, perhaps screw-on, cover which can be locked from both the outside when you are away from the container, and from the inside when you are in the container. To keep any radioactive dust or ash from entering very far into the ventilation pipes, you can place a cylindrical air filter near the top of each pipe. And to keep rain, insects, and small animals from entering the pipes and affecting the filters, you can place a nylon screen and side-vented plastic cap over the top of each pipe. Another thing to worry about is floodwater pouring into the pipes. So your wilderness site shouldn't be in a floodplain, but on high-enough ground where it won't be flooded.

Because one of the reasons to go underground is to be hidden out of sight of hostile people during the Antichrist's worldwide reign, you will want to restore the surface of the ground above the buried containers so that, as much as possible, it appears like it did before you began digging. The tops of the manhole and ventilation pipes of each container will need to be camouflaged with brush, so that any hostile people passing by won't notice them. Also, in case some hostile people with dogs happen to pass by while you are hiding inside a container, you will need to place some long-dead (non-smelling) carcass of a small animal near enough to each ventilation pipe so that if the dogs pick up your scent emanating from a ventilation pipe, the hostile people with the dogs will think that their dogs are just interested in the carcass of the animal, and won't start rummaging through the brush and discover the ventilation pipe.

Besides camouflaging your underground hideout so that no hostile people will even notice it during the Antichrist's worldwide reign (in the tribulation's 2nd half), before the tribulation even begins and you are still thinking about where in the wilderness to prepare your hideout, you will need to be very circumspect about whom you tell about your plans. You will want to tell only those people who are completely committed to joining you in hiding in your containers during the Antichrist's worldwide reign. For if you get any other people involved in knowing before the Antichrist's worldwide reign where your hideout is located, during the Antichrist's worldwide reign those same people could be captured by the Antichrist's police or soldiers and under torture or interrogation drugs tell them the location of your hideout. Or those same people, even if they are not captured, could start to get very hungry during the Antichrist's worldwide reign, and so could decide to go out to your hideout and demand to be fed with your supplies, even though you didn't store up enough for them, because before the tribulation they had said that they definitely weren't going to join you in your hideout.

Another thing to remember is that even before the Antichrist's worldwide reign, even when communicating with those who are completely committed to joining you in your hideout during the Antichrist's worldwide reign, you must never refer to the location of your hideout over the internet or over a cell phone, smartphone, or landline phone, or even in your car or home, or in any (e.g.) workplace, supermarket, or restaurant equipped with surveillance cameras and microphones, as all of these could currently be tapped and recorded by intelligence or law enforcement agencies, and their surveillance records could later be searched by the Antichrist's police or soldiers to determine the location of your hideout. For the same reason, you mustn't have any device with a GPS chip (such as a cell phone, smartphone, tablet computer, laptop computer, OnStar, LoJack, Garmin, TomTom, etc.) with you when you are out at your hideout, as the GPS chip could be secretly pinged remotely in order to determine your hideout's location. You will also need to have your car, shoes, clothing, and all supplies intended for your hideout electronically swept for any GPS chips covertly placed in them by intelligence or law enforcement agencies.

More generally, during the tribulation, as now, whenever you want to keep your cell phone or smartphone with you, but at the same time want to avoid having your movements tracked through it, wrap it in a small towel like a wash cloth, or place it in a small box like a cigar box, and then wrap the towel or box completely with aluminum foil, so that no phone signals can reach the phone. To make sure that there are no tiny gaps or tears in the foil through which signals can enter, once the phone is in the foil-wrapped towel or box, call it from another phone and see if it rings. If it does, hang up, wrap the towel or box with a 2nd layer of foil and call again. If the phone doesn't ring, that means that no signals can reach it, and so your movements can't be tracked through it.

And when you make your final trip out to your hideout, when you will begin hiding there during the Antichrist's worldwide reign, you will need to abandon your car miles away from your hideout and walk the rest of the way, as otherwise your car could catch the attention of any passing hostile people or patrolling drone aircraft. And even if you abandon your car miles away from you hideout, you will still want to camouflage it with brush to avoid it being seen and starting a general search of the area. Or, if there is not enough brush with which to camouflage it, you can let the air out of one of its tires which is visible from the road, so that people passing on the road will think that your car was left there because it got a flat tire.

Some people think that everyone in the cities will try to go out into the wilderness during the tribulation. But that may not be the case, for almost all people in the cities don't have hunting/fishing and other wilderness survival skills, and won't know of any well-stocked hideouts in the wilderness, and so they won't think that there is any food out there, or that they will be able to construct any decent shelter out there. They will think of the wilderness as being only barren ground and brush, rocks, trees, and mountains, and so they will stay in the cities where they have shelter and some chance of finding food. And if the cities come under martial law, they could become the safest places to be, as the military could bring order to them and supply them with emergency food and water.

But martial law will cut both ways in that once the Antichrist takes over everything (Revelation 13:7-18), the cities could become, in effect, huge military prisons, where people will have to receive the Antichrist's mark on their right hand or forehead if they want to buy any food (Revelation 13:16-17). And everyone will have to worship Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:4-10, Revelation 12:9) and a speaking image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:15) if they don't want to be beheaded (Revelation 20:4). Believers trapped in the cities must be willing to be beheaded, for if they go ahead and take the mark and worship Lucifer and the Antichrist and his image, they will ultimately lose their salvation and suffer eternally in fire and brimstone (Revelation 14:9-14).

Believers shouldn't assume that they will necessarily be able to stand up well under the hunger (and possibly torture) and beheading which will be imposed on believers trapped in the cities during the Antichrist's worldwide reign. Many believers could eventually give in and take the mark when their hunger and the hunger of their crying little ones reaches a certain point (Isaiah 8:21-22). And they could give in and worship Lucifer and the Antichrist and his image when they are confronted with they and their little ones being tortured and beheaded if they don't do those things. It will be much, much better for believers to avoid these horrors by fleeing into prepared hiding places in the wilderness right before the Antichrist's 3.5-year worldwide reign of terror begins (Revelation 12:6, Matthew 24:15-16).

"A prudent man foreseeth the evil, and hideth himself..." (Proverbs 22:3, Proverbs 27:12, Proverbs 28:28, Proverbs 28:12b).

iamlamad said in post 4621:

[1 Thes. 5]
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

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1 Thessalonians 5:3 could include reference to when, near the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, at the 2 witnesses' death at the legal end of the Antichrist's 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 11:8,15, Revelation 13:5-18), the unsaved world will rejoice and make merry because it will then be free from the tormenting plagues from the 2 witnesses (Revelation 11:10,6). But little will the unsaved world realize that the plagues of the 7 vials of God's judgment and wrath will then be poured out upon it (Revelation 16). And then Jesus will return and bring the 2nd-coming judgment and wrath of God (Revelation 19:11 to 20:3).

iamlamad said in post 4621:

[1 Thes. 5]
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation [we which are alive and remain shall be caught up] by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him

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1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Note that 1 Thessalonians 5:9 refers only to that wrath which is opposed to salvation, which is God's wrath (John 3:36). Even obedient saved people can suffer the wrath of Satan, which doesn't affect their salvation (Revelation 12:17, Revelation 2:10). For even if they are killed by Satan, this is no loss for them, but gain, for it brings their still-conscious souls into heaven to be with Jesus (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8). Also, 1 Thessalonians 5:9a applies to anyone who obtains salvation (1 Thessalonians 5:9b), and no matter whether they live or die (1 Thessalonians 5:10).

Also, note that nothing requires (as is often claimed) that the entire future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 will be God's wrath, or that any part of the tribulation that will be his wrath will be directed against any of the saved people (1 Thessalonians 5:9) who will still be alive on the earth at that time (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Most of the tribulation could be only Satan's wrath working through evil people and natural forces to bring disaster on the earth, like when Satan was allowed to work through evil people and natural forces to bring disaster on righteous Job (Job 1:12-20), against whom God had no wrath.

For example, the tribulation's first 5 seals (Revelation 6:1-11) won't be God's wrath or judgment, for after the first 4 seals, the martyrs of the 5th seal ask God when he is going to bring his judgment against the world (Revelation 6:10). And the killing of even more martyrs, which the 5th seal foretells will happen sometime after the 5th seal (Revelation 6:11), won't be God's wrath against those martyrs. So Jesus' unsealing of the seals (Revelation 6), the tribulation's 1st stage, doesn't mean that the events unsealed will be God's wrath, but that they will be permitted by God to happen at that time.

iamlamad said in post 4621:

[1 Thes. 5]
11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

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Note that the comfort in 1 Thessalonians 5:11 applies to those in Christ no matter whether they live or die (1 Thessalonians 5:10-11).

Similarly, the comfort in 1 Thessalonians 4:18 is the comfort that the dead in Christ aren't lost, but their souls will come back from heaven with Jesus at his 2nd coming, and their physical bodies will be resurrected at that time (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Christians going through any tribulation are comforted by God even while they are going through that tribulation (2 Corinthians 1:3-7; 1 Peter 4:12-13). So Christians will be comforted by God even as they go through the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). They will be waiting for Jesus' 2nd coming and the rapture, which will occur immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

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iamlamad said in post 4625:

I see the rapture taking place at the 6th seal, one moment before the earthquake.

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Note that there is no coming of Jesus at the 6th seal. Instead, the 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-14) could be fulfilled in our future by a huge volcanic eruption (possibly of the Yellowstone Caldera) which will occur during only the 1st stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. This eruption could begin with a large earthquake (Revelation 6:12), signaling the sudden rising of magma within the volcano. When it erupts, it could shoot so much ash and smoke into the sky that the sun will appear darkened and the moon blood-red (Revelation 6:12b), like happens during large forest fires. The volcano could also shoot blobs of red-hot magma into the sky, which as they fall back down could appear like falling stars (Revelation 6:13). And it could shoot so much super-heated ash and smoke so high and so quickly into the sky that they could form a gigantic mushroom cloud which will make the sky (the 1st heaven) look like a scroll being rolled up (Revelation 6:14). Earthquakes connected with the eruption could be so large that they set off a chain reaction of other earthquakes in nearby faults and volcanoes, which could set off even more earthquakes further away, and so on, so that earthquakes will end up affecting every mountain and island, moving each of their positions at least a little bit (Revelation 6:14b).

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iamlamad said in post 4627:

The US has not repented since 9/11. That tells me we will be hit again.

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Interesting point.

Some people believe that the U.S. is the "Babylon" destroyed in Revelation. But while the corrupt aspects of the U.S. are included in what Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" (Revelation chapters 17-18) represents, it represents much more than just the corrupt aspects of the U.S. For the U.S. just by itself doesn't reign over the kings of the earth (Revelation 17:18). Nor is the U.S. the only place where people buy merchandise (Revelation 18:11). Nor is the U.S. the place where all martyrs have been killed (Revelation 18:24). Nor has the U.S. just by itself corrupted the entire world (Revelation 18:3). Nor has the U.S. been continuously supported by the empires of fallen man throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10). Instead, Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" represents all of mankind's corrupt political (Revelation 17:18), economic (Revelation 18:11), and religious (Revelation 18:24) systems throughout the earth (Revelation 18:3), and throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10).

Nonetheless, the corrupt world-system represented by Revelation's "Babylon" may currently be headquartered in Washington DC and New York City, insofar as Washington DC may currently be "the crowning city" (cf. Isaiah 23:8) of mankind's corrupt politics, the 1st leg of Revelation's "Babylon" (Revelation 17:18). And New York City may currently be "the crowning city" of mankind's corrupt economics, the 2nd leg of Revelation's "Babylon" (Revelation 18:11). "The crowning city" of mankind's corrupt religions, the 3rd leg of Revelation's "Babylon" (Revelation 18:24), may currently be Jerusalem, as it was back in the 1st century AD (Matthew 23:35-38). Ultimately, all 3 legs of Revelation's "Babylon" will become headquartered in the literal, rebuilt city of Babylon (in Iraq), which the Antichrist, during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), will make the capital of the world, only to see his city of Babylon ultimately destroyed at Jesus' 2nd coming (Isaiah 13).

Tyre was "the crowning city" of mankind's corrupt economics at one point in ancient times (Isaiah 23:8). God allowed the destruction of ancient Tyre as a lesson, an example, "to stain the pride of all glory, and to bring into contempt all the honourable of the earth" (Isaiah 23:9). In the same way, would God allow the future destruction of Washington DC and New York City by terrorist nuclear bombs, as a lesson, an example, "to stain the pride of all glory, and to bring into contempt all the honourable of the earth"?

Also, the Bible teaches that, without repentance, what is sown is reaped (Galatians 6:7). And 2 nuclear bombs (developed in the "Manhattan" Project) were sown by the U.S. against 2 major cities in Japan (Hiroshima and Nagasaki) in order to terrorize Japan into surrender during World War II. So could the U.S. in the future reap 2 terrorist nuclear bombs against 2 of its own major cities (including Manhattan)? Could the U.S. avoid this fate by publicly repenting before God and asking him and Japan for forgiveness for the U.S. intentionally targeting and murdering 150,000 innocent civilian men, women, and children living in Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Could the 9/11 terrorists being allowed by God to intentionally target and murder 3,000 innocent civilian men, women, and children in New York City's Twin Towers and elsewhere in the U.S. have been just a warning to the U.S., a mere shot across its bow, to try to get the U.S. to repent for what it did to the 2 cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki? But could the U.S. continue to refuse to repent for its nuclear terrorism against Japan, leaving the way open for nuclear terrorism against the U.S.?

Also, a "restrainer" must be taken out of the way before the Antichrist can come into worldwide power (2 Thessalonians 2:6-9, Revelation 13:4-18). This restrainer could be a powerful angel like the one who will restrain Satan at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 20:1-3). It could be Michael the archangel, the angelic prince over Israel (Daniel 12:1, Daniel 10:21,13). Michael could also currently be the angelic prince over the U.S., making sure that it supports Israel. Part of Michael's being taken out of the way, just enough to allow the Antichrist to come into worldwide power, could be God removing Michael's protection of the U.S. just enough to allow Washington DC and New York City to be nuked by terrorists. This could weaken the U.S. not only by the destruction of its political and economic capitals, but also by the subsequent run on the U.S. dollar which could occur, rendering it close to worthless in world markets. The U.S. government could then finally go bankrupt, unable to finance any longer its huge debt, economy, and military. Its days as a superpower (but not as a nation) will be over, opening the way for the Antichrist to come into worldwide power (Revelation 13:4-18).

If Washington DC and New York City are attacked with nuclear bombs, will this really be the work of terrorists, such as Islamic jihadis? Or could it be a "false flag" operation, one presented to the world as an Islamic-jihadi attack, when in fact it will have been carefully stage-managed from behind the scenes by a powerful cabal, a worldwide secret society of Gnostic Luciferians, as part of their careful, step-by-step plan to prepare the way for the Antichrist (who is a Gnostic Luciferian: 1 John 4:3, Revelation 13:4) to take over the world?

For example, could the Gnostic Luciferian cabal secretly equip some Islamic-jihadi group in Pakistan with 2 nukes and the means to get them into the U.S. and detonate them in New York City and Washington DC? For example, could the 2 nukes be secretly built in North Korea, secretly sold to Iran, secretly delivered to Iran via a plane crossing China, secretly handed off by Iran to the cabal's Islamic-jihadi group in Pakistan, secretly boated over to Thailand, and then secretly brought into the U.S. via 2 shipping containers from Thailand into the Port Newark, New Jersey Container Terminal? And could the 2 shipping containers have been lined with enough lead so as to thwart any radiation-detectors at the Terminal? And could these shipping containers have been filled mostly with tile, kitty litter, or bananas, which give off a natural radiation, so that if the containers are opened and inspected by hand for radiation, it will be thought that the radiation is just from the tile, kitty litter, or bananas, and not from nuclear bombs packed inside lead sarcophagi hidden in the center of the containers?

Could both containers in this way get past U.S. inspection? (And could the Gnostic Luciferian cabal also be careful to have its own "moles" or hand-picked and extremely-well bribed and blackmailed inspectors on duty when the containers are passing through U.S. inspection, to make sure that the containers don't get scanned by x-rays, or if they do, that any automatic alarms are disabled and that no other inspectors are present?) And after passing inspection, could one of the containers be trucked to a Newark warehouse, where the nuke will be extracted and placed into a smaller, lead-lined, tile-filled delivery truck, which will then be driven into the very heart of Manhattan, where the nuke will be detonated at a pre-arranged time? And could the other container be trucked to an Alexandria, Virginia warehouse, where the nuke will be extracted and placed into a large SUV? Could the SUV then be driven to a small, local airport in northwestern Maryland, where the nuke will be loaded in the dead of night onto a private jet? Could the jet's transponder be disabled, and the jet be flown low, under radar, down the Potomac, into the very heart of Washington DC, where the nuke will be detonated at the same time as the one in Manhattan?

(And even besides this, could a 3rd, nuke-containing shipping container from Thailand end up in a vast shipping-container lot in the Port of Long Beach, California, right next to Los Angeles? And could the Gnostic Luciferian cabal not even bother to have the nuke extracted and driven into or flown over downtown Los Angeles, but simply have the nuke detonated right there in Long Beach harbor, at the same time as the one in Manhattan, so that it completely destroys the major west coast port of the U.S., and wipes out much of hugely-populated Los Angeles and Orange Counties? And could the Gnostic Luciferian cabal's puppet-"Islamic terrorists" claim that they nuked Los Angeles because it contains Hollywood, and contains the San Fernando Valley, a center for inappropriate contentographic video production, so that Los Angeles has contributed greatly to the corrupt entertainment culture which dominates the world today, even in Islamic countries behind closed doors?)

Regarding Jerusalem getting destroyed, at the very end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, the Antichrist (Daniel 11:45) and the world's armies will attack and pillage Jerusalem, right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-21). And at the 2nd coming there will be tremendous earth changes in the vicinity of Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:4-5). These events could result in all of Jerusalem's structures, including a 3rd Jewish temple (which will be built) and the Wailing Wall (also called the Western Wall) being completely broken down so that not one stone will be left upon another throughout the city (Luke 19:44). Then the returned Jesus (Zechariah 14:4, Acts 1:11-12) will rebuild Jerusalem in righteousness and make it the capital of the world (Zechariah 14:8-19, Micah 4:1-4), during his literal, 1,000-year physical reign on the earth with the physically resurrected church (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

*******

iamlamad said in post 4630:

Since they THOUGHT they were in the day of the Lord and were very troubled in reference to the rapture and the DAY, it makes good sense that Paul had taught them the rapture comes first, before the day.

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Actually, no. For instead, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 is most often referred to in order to refute the mistaken idea of an imminent, pre-tribulation coming of Jesus and rapture (gathering together) of the church, which won't happen until immediately after the future tribulation (Matthew 24:29-21). But the apostle Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 wasn't so much countering pre-tribulation rapturism as he was countering full preterism. Full preterism mistakenly says that the day of the Lord (Christ) is already at hand (2 Thessalonians 2:2), in the sense of already present, that the 2nd coming and rapture have already occurred (2 Thessalonians 2:1-2), that the resurrection of the church is already a present reality (2 Timothy 2:18). Paul was careful to counter full preterism, for it can trouble (2 Thessalonians 2:2) and even overthrow the faith of some believers (2 Timothy 2:18). It can cause them to lose the blessed hope (Titus 2:13) of obtaining eternal life (Titus 1:2, Titus 3:7) in an immortal, physical resurrection body (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Short Timer said in post 4633:

Obviously, if no flesh could survive unless Jesus returned, there's no place in this world you could hide and escape.

That only leave the Mansion in Heaven Jesus went to prepare for us.

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Note that because Jesus will return, there will be places in the world where some in the church will be protected (Revelation 12:6,14-16). Also, note that there is no pre-tribulation-rapture idea in John 14:2-3, just as there is no "take you back" (somewhere). Instead, there is only a coming again of Jesus (i.e. his 2nd coming), and then a receiving of the church unto himself. Also, the pre-tribulation-rapture view can't (as is sometimes done) claim that the rapture is referred to only by Paul, and then admit that John 14:3 refers to the rapture.

John 14:2 means that one of the reasons Jesus left was to prepare a place for the church in the literal city of New Jerusalem, God the Father's house in heaven (Revelation 21:2-3). John 14:3 means that Jesus' leaving to prepare a place for the church means that he is not done with the church, but will come back to it. John 14:3 means that the church will be received to Jesus where he will be first at his 2nd coming, which will be in the sky (1 Thessalonians 4:17), before he lands on the earth at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:30-31, Zechariah 14:3-21), which won't occur until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

The church will live in its place in New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:24 to 22:5) on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-3) sometime after the millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15). For during the millennium, the physically resurrected church will be ruling on the present earth with the returned Jesus (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Zechariah 14:3-21).

Also, the church has already come to God the Father's house, New Jerusalem, which is currently in heaven, in the spiritual sense of coming under the New Covenant (Hebrews 12:22-24, Galatians 4:24-26, Matthew 26:28). Also, the souls of obedient people in the church go to God the Father's house when they die, for their still-conscious souls go into heaven to be with Jesus when they die (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8). And they go into paradise (Luke 23:43), which is in heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2b,4), in the city of New Jerusalem (Revelation 2:7 and Revelation 22:2).

ivebeenshown said in post 4640:

Revelation is a complex assembly of visions with many parallels amongst themselves and other parts of Scripture. There are many overlapping or non-sequential timelines.

Click to expand...

Revelation chapters 6 to 22 are chronological insofar as the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will begin with the events of the 2nd through 6th seals, occurring in the order shown in Revelation 6:3-14. After the events of the 6th seal, Revelation 7 will occur. Then the 7th seal will be unsealed, and out of it will come the tribulation's 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-6). Then the events of the first 6 trumpets in Revelation 8:7 to Revelation 9:21 will occur in the order shown there. Then Revelation 10 will occur. Then the literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign will occur, which time period is shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13).

Then the 7th trumpet will sound, announcing the legal end of the Antichrist's reign (Revelation 11:15). Out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening will come the 7 plagues of the 7 vials (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1), the tribulation's final stage. Then the events of the 7 vials will occur in the order shown in Revelation 16. Jesus will return right after the 7th vial (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21), and he will rapture and marry the church at that time (Revelation 19:7). Then he will defeat the world's armies (Revelation 19:11 to 20:3) and reign on the earth with the physically resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29; 1 Corinthians 15:51-53). Then the events of Revelation 20:7 to Revelation 22:5 will occur in the order shown there.

ivebeenshown said:

The coming of the apostasy and the revealing of the man of sin are both referred to in the same verbal tense and are joined together with a conjunction, therefore the adverb 'first' is applied to both verbs. This applies equally to Greek and English.

Paul states that the day of the Lord will not come unless:
- The apostasy shall have come, and
- The man of sin shall have been revealed

With or without the adverb, the shared tense and the conjunction place both conditions equally as requirement for the day of the Lord to come.

'The wrath of the Lord is come' at the end of chapter 11, after the beast has made war with the saints. Revelation is a complex assembly of visions with many parallels amongst themselves and other parts of Scripture. There are many overlapping or non-sequential timelines.

If there is no other example in the Scriptures of 'apostasy' meaning anything other than removing oneself from something, why interpret it as oneself being removed by someone else in this one case?

Who says that the revealing of the man of sin is what Paul refers to when saying "and now that which is restraining you know, for to be revealed him in his time"? Paul writes both of the revealing of Christ and of the man of sin. Paul writes first of the day of the Lord with he revelation of Christ with his angels, and says that let no man deceive you, because it cannot happen unless certain conditions are met. Are those conditions not what is restraining Christ from being revealed in his time?

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One thing to keep in mind: this is the SECOND letter Paul wrote, and he also refers back to what he has taught them in person. "Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?" What do we find in his first letter that is mentioned in this passage? Do we find a falling away from something or do we find a catching away?

The people at the 6th seal were wise enough after seeing the signs (knowing Isaiah 2 and Joel 2)to KNOW that the Day of God's wrath had come:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

If they knew by recognized the signs, I wonder why YOU don't see it?

Revelation is a complex assembly of visions with many parallels amongst themselves and other parts of Scripture. There are many overlapping or non-sequential timelines.

All this is nonsense and shows that you don't understand Revelation.

Who says that the revealing of the man of sin is what Paul refers to when saying "and now that which is restraining you know, for to be revealed him in his time"?

What a silly question! CONTEXT!

Are those conditions not what is restraining Christ from being revealed in his time?

Absolutely not!

Next, we must see that the KJV did not really help us here: they were not worried that the DAY was "at hand" - they were worried that they were INSIDE the Day: it had previously started and they were IN it:

The difference between "at hand" and "has already arrived" makes all the difference in how people see this entire passage.

Here is a quote from a web site: he said it much better than I:

Now let's see this again with Paul's missing words added in parenthesis:

2 Thessalonians 2 (Darby)
3 Let not any one deceive you in any manner, because [it will not be] unless the apostasy have first come, and the man of sin have been revealed, the son of perdition;

American Standard Version:
3 let no man beguile you in any wise: for it will not be, except the falling away come first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition,

So the question Paul was answering is that they thought the day had started and they were IN IT, and Paul says, no, the way to tell if you are IN the day, apostasia (departing) must come first, and then the man of sin be revealed - then you will IN the day.

So there is only one thing that must come first before something else: it is the departing that must come first, then when the man of sin is revealed all will know the DAY is present - having previously started.

Next, you need to examine WHY Paul left words out and WHY he wrote, "and now you know what is restraining..."
Could it be that he PURPOSELY made it difficult so people would study it instead of just read it?

Next, study the word Apostasy itself and see if this compound Greek word COULD mean a departure. I think it is proven by SEVERAL translations before the KJV that translated apostasia as DEPARTING. However, as Paul wrote it, it is a VERY SIGNIFICANT departing....not just any old every day departing.

In short, Paul wrote:
Be not shaken in mind... if you hear the Day of the Lord is present,... unless the departing comes first, and the man of sin is revealed...the Day of the Lord won't be present.

As you see, this is a totally different way to see this that your view of it - but this is demanded by the Greek text.

Now some logic:
It is true doctrine that the Day of the Lord will come soon. This is being correctly taught in many churches today. It is impossible for a false report to be "true doctrine" - otherwise it would be a TRUE report. Therefore, the false report was not, and could not have been, that the Day of the Lord will come soon, because the Bible teaches the day of the Lord will come soon.The false report then MUST BE that the Day of the Lord is present.

The VERY PURPOSE of Paul's letter is to tell them how they can know for certain whether the Day of the Lord is present or not. If Paul had written "the day of the Lord has not come" and then before his letter arrived the Day DID COME, his letter would be a lie. What we have is the wisdom of the Holy Spirit. Paul told then how they could recognize when the day of the Lord was present: if the man of sin is revealed, then the DAY is present and had previously started.

Next, consider what Paul is saying: there must be a SIGNIFICANT happening (THE apostasia) that would be easily recognized so when it happened people would then look for the revealing. A falling away does not seem to measure up to anything significant enough. How could anyone at that time know if ENOUGH people had fallen away to be the "significant" falling away? I submit that they could not know...which tells me that was NOT Paul's intent. Next, there cannot be much of a time gap between these two events, else they are useless as signs.

You are simply mistaken about two things having to be first. If it was as you think, the grammar must be different.

I could go on, but this should be enough to chew on.

Bible2+ said:

Note that because Jesus will return, there will be places in the world where some in the church will be protected (Revelation 12:6,14-16). Also, note that there is no pre-tribulation-rapture idea in John 14:2-3, just as there is no "take you back" (somewhere). Instead, there is only a coming again of Jesus (i.e. his 2nd coming), and then a receiving of the church unto himself. Also, the pre-tribulation-rapture view can't (as is sometimes done) claim that the rapture is referred to only by Paul, and then admit that John 14:3 refers to the rapture.

Click to expand...

If there is any evidence anywhere in the world of the "Falling away", it's here on this thread.

"WHY" would God turn the devil loose on "all kindred, tongues, and nations" if he wasn't "Angry" at the world???

And you want to build a "Bunker" to escape "God's anger"

as if you still being in the world are not part of "ALL kindred, tongues or nations??????

Eze 28:2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:

3 Behold, thou art wiser than Daniel; there is no secret that they can hide from thee:

With a third of the angels kicked out of heaven with satan, and helping the AC, plus God angry at the world, you think you're going to hid in your bunker and neither the demons/AC/God is going to know where you are?????

God's anger is directed at "ALL FLESH", the cause of sin, even if you confess Jesus, the flesh still dies along with the unsaved, to the point of "NO FLESH" surviving except God needing a "Remanent" to repopulated the earth during the MK, which only Jesus returns does save from being annihilated.

And you are going to hide and escape God's plan of anger toward "ALL FLESH".

Ge 6:13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

Mt 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Isa 10:5 O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation.

6 I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.

Ge 6:8 But Noah (Church) found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

1Th 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

Lu 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass,

You think the AC is doing whatever he wants to do and God is just allowing him to do it,

But the fact is God is "sending" the AC to do exactly what God wants done, and that is to kill all flesh, except a "FEW" so small in number a child can write the number.

Isa 10:19 And the rest of the trees of his forest shall be few, that a child may write them.

But you have your own plan to "escape" God's plan.

Now go back and read the first sentence of this post.

iamlamad said:

Next, we must see that the KJV did not really help us here: they were not worried that the DAY was "at hand" - they were worried that they were INSIDE the Day: it had previously started and they were IN it:

(NIV) 2 Thessalonians 2:2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come.

(NASB) 2 Thessalonians 2:2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.

(NKJV) 2 Thessalonians 2:2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ[1] had come.

​

Click to expand...

Lets run the NKJV version and see if its meaning IN CONTEXT even when using the sentence --as though the day of Christ[a] had come.--rather than -is at hand- is so different than the KJV. (Using a lot less verbiage than you do.)

Note that NKJV say like the KJV that Apostasy means a falling away.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Thessalonians+2&version=NKJV#fen-NKJV-29664a

2 Thessalonians 2New King James Version (NKJV)
The Great Apostasy

2 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ[a] had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come UNLESS the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God[c] in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.[

As you can see it make no difference at all even when using -had come - rather than -is at hand- because they were MISTAKEN one way or another about the real moment WHEN the Day of CHRIST will come and our Gathering unto Jesus.

tanzel said:

Sorry...I don't see a Rapture in those scriptures

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I'm not surprised.

Satan’s Playground;“ Modern Day Religion”
One of the main reasons that modern day Christians are not eagerly preparing for God’s great harvest is a belief that the theory called ‘the rapture’ is God’s cure all in man’s existence. This unscriptural belief of a removal of living people to heaven, promotes the understanding that by maintaining some type of Christian appearance for security sake, the rapture will remove them from the Day of judgment or tribulation on the earth. This thought gives believers the idea there is nothing more to anticipate as coming from God but the future rapture of the church. This mind-set establishes for most the belief that if they can just hold on to some kind of Christian appearance until the rapture comes they will make heaven their home. This type of belief places believers into a state of idleness and complacency that causes them to miss some of God’s greater and better blessings.
God has many blessings for the disciple who press on to know the Lord’s greater blessings available in this present age and the age to come. Mark 10:29-30

Is not the church the field where Christ is planted as a seed and His people are the wheat? So, it is within the church that Satan has also planted the tares, the seed of modern day carnal religion, where both have been growing together until this time of harvest. Satan’s playground now reveals the carnal corruption that has poisoned the churches with deception and death. However, notice that the harvest time has the tares receiving judgment and a removal from the church. Matthew 13:39-43, Matthew 3:12, Revelation 14:17-20
1/ The wheat and tares stay together until maturity.
2/ Maturity first reveals the corruption and then the removal of the wicked.
3/ With the removal of the wicked fruit, the righteous fruit shall shine forth as the sun, a Church without spot or blemish.

Now consider Israel, they were God’s chosen people to be a nation where He might dwell among them manifesting His goodness. However, note that while they had received from God all they needed to become His righteous people through obedience to His covenant laws, it became increasingly evident that through their shortcomings and disobedience they became more like the nations living around them. God’s purpose was for them to be a people separated unto Him and all His ways. Meanwhile, among all their rebellion, God still showed His love by bringing forth the prophets of truth, but the populace rejected them also. This rebelliousness consistently found an influence among their Kings to lead the people astray. Nevertheless, even among this rebellion and their captivity in Babylon, God was willing and prepared to redeem and restore them to His promises. This types the church of today as it also, for the most part, has allowed Satan’s carnality to live among them to resist God. Therefore, we also see the lack of the presence of God among the people as they turn to doctrines of devils, deception and falsehoods. Modern day religious practices have opened the doors for every foul, unclean and hateful manifestation. A church removed from the holiness of God. Rev. 18:2, And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the Great [modern day religion] is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils [demons] and the hold [prison] of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. In this, note that maturity concerning the wheat and the tares reveals the tares as being a poison filled seed that is separated from God through judgment upon those who receive such mind-sets, a time that is about to come upon the whole world.
In ancient Israel, we see a type of today’s modern day religion called the church who, by allowing the carnal mind and man’s deceitful doctrines to replace the things that God has purposed for His people, they lost sight of God’s purpose to have a people who would be a light to the nations and His witnesses. Isaiah 42:6, Isaiah 43:10

The judgments of God and His wrath are upon those who promote and believe in false teachings, idol worship and following all the ways Satan has devised to lead people astray. False belief is that which spots the garments of the church. Thus, while modern day religion has become Satan’s playground and is therefore appointed to God’s wrath, God’s true righteous people are not so appointed, 1 Thess. 5:9 and will be protected during His Day of vengeance and wrath.
Ref: James Lloyd

iamlamad said:

One thing to keep in mind: this is the SECOND letter Paul wrote, and he also refers back to what he has taught them in person. "Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?" What do we find in his first letter that is mentioned in this passage? Do we find a falling away from something or do we find a catching away?

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Where in 2 Thessalonians does Paul mention his first letter to the Thessalonians? I see where he mentioned what he "told" them when he was "yet with them", but I do not see where he mentioned his first letter.

The people at the 6th seal were wise enough after seeing the signs (knowing Isaiah 2 and Joel 2)to KNOW that the Day of God's wrath had come:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

If they knew by recognized the signs, I wonder why YOU don't see it?

Click to expand...

It is said elsewhere in Revelation that the Lord's "wrath is come" after the beast ascends from the bottomless pit to make war.

Revelation is a complex assembly of visions with many parallels amongst themselves and other parts of Scripture. There are many overlapping or non-sequential timelines.

Click to expand...

All this is nonsense and shows that you don't understand Revelation.

Click to expand...

I see that you offer no counterargument here.

Who says that the revealing of the man of sin is what Paul refers to when saying "and now that which is restraining you know, for to be revealed him in his time"?

Click to expand...

What a silly question! CONTEXT!

Click to expand...

Again, I see that you offer no counterargument. The context of Paul's statement contains two figures that are revealed: the Lord Christ (2 Thessalonians 1:7), and the man of sin (2 Thessalonians 2:3). Paul states that the Day of Christ (or the Day of the Lord, if you will) shall not come except something else shall have happened first. The Day of the Lord, as Paul had just written in 2 Thessalonians 1, is when Christ is revealed from Heaven with his mighty angels. So if Christ shall not be revealed from Heaven unless something else shall have happened first, one can say that something is yet restraining Christ from being revealed from Heaven.

Are those conditions not what is restraining Christ from being revealed in his time?

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Absolutely not!

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Are you then saying that Christ could be "revealed from Heaven with his mighty angels" before that which Paul writes of in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 has happened?

Next, we must see that the KJV did not really help us here: they were not worried that the DAY was "at hand" - they were worried that they were INSIDE the Day: it had previously started and they were IN it:

(NIV) 2 Thessalonians 2:2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come.

(NASB) 2 Thessalonians 2:2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.

(NKJV) 2 Thessalonians 2:2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ[1] had come.
(RSV) 2 Thessalonians 2:2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or excited, either by spirit or by word, or by letter purporting to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.

(Darby) 2 Thessalonians 2:2 that ye be not soon shaken in mind, nor troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter, as [if it were] by us, as that the day of the Lord is present.

(Young's Literal) 2 Thessalonians 2:2 that ye be not quickly shaken in mind, nor be troubled, neither through spirit, neither through word, neither through letters as through us, as that the day of Christ hath arrived;

(WE) 2 Thessalonians 2:2 Do not let your minds be easily upset. Do not be troubled by a spirit, or a message, or a letter. Do not be troubled if you hear that the day of the Lord has already come. Some people will say it came from us.
​

The difference between "at hand" and "has already arrived" makes all the difference in how people see this entire passage.

Here is a quote from a web site: he said it much better than I:

As though the day of Christ had come: Some translations have that the day of Christ is at hand, such as the King James Version. But the translation in the New King James Version (and other modern translations) is preferred. The Thessalonians were not afraid that the day of Christ was coming, but that they were in it.


i. "The verb does not really mean to be at hand, but rather to be present." (Morris) The notable Greek commentator Dean Alford translates the passage, "To the effect that the day of the Lord is present; not, 'is at hand': the verb used here occurs six times in the New Testament, and always in the sense of being present; in two of those places, Romans 8:38, 1 Corinthians 3:22, the things present are distinguished expressly from the things to come."


ii. From this, it is obvious that the day of Christ had not been completed. Paul will go on to demonstrate that it also had not yet dawned, because the Thessalonians were afraid that they were in the Great Tribulation (the day of the Lord), and feared that they had missed the rapture. But Paul will demonstrate that they are not in the day of Christ; because if they were, then certain signs would be present.

c. And the man of sin is revealed: Before the Great Tribulation can be identified with certainty, a particular person - known as the man of sin, - must be revealed. Paul's point is clear: "You are worried that we are in the Great Tribulation and that you missed the rapture. But you can know that we are not in the Great Tribulation, because we have not yet seen the man of sin . . . revealed."
http://www.enduringword.com/commentaries/5302.htm
End quote​

Now let's see this again with Paul's missing words added in parenthesis:

2 Thessalonians 2 (Darby)
3 Let not any one deceive you in any manner, because [it will not be] unless the apostasy have first come, and the man of sin have been revealed, the son of perdition;

American Standard Version:
3 let no man beguile you in any wise: for it will not be, except the falling away come first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition,

So the question Paul was answering is that they thought the day had started and they were IN IT, and Paul says, no, the way to tell if you are IN the day, apostasia (departing) must come first, and then the man of sin be revealed - then you will IN the day.

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My argument does not rely on my interpretation of the King James Version translation of verse 1, partly because I know that 'at hand' can mean 'is present', but also because Paul does not preclude the revealing of the man of sin from coming first or specify that it comes after.

So there is only one thing that must come first before something else: it is the departing that must come first, then when the man of sin is revealed all will know the DAY is present - having previously started.

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Next, you need to examine WHY Paul left words out and WHY he wrote, "and now you know what is restraining..."
Could it be that he PURPOSELY made it difficult so people would study it instead of just read it?

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I do not believe that Paul 'left words out', I believe that is simply how ancient Greek was.

Next, study the word Apostasy itself and see if this compound Greek word COULD mean a departure. I think it is proven by SEVERAL translations before the KJV that translated apostasia as DEPARTING. However, as Paul wrote it, it is a VERY SIGNIFICANT departing....not just any old every day departing.

In short, Paul wrote:
Be not shaken in mind... if you hear the Day of the Lord is present,... unless the departing comes first, and the man of sin is revealed...the Day of the Lord won't be present.

As you see, this is a totally different way to see this that your view of it - but this is demanded by the Greek text.

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Extraordinary significance does not of itself grant new meaning to a word, and one may willingly engage in departure from their faith or from their marriage vows. It is not sufficient to say that because a Greek word may be translated into an English word, that the English word must be used with a different tone than the Greek word was used. The Greek word was used in the tone of 'forsaking' or 'divorcing' with the active voice, and specifically in this passage, it was used with the active voice, meaning the subject is the agent of the action. Is there any place where Jesus or Paul speak of our gathering unto the Lord where we are the active subject, rather than the passive subject?

Now some logic:
It is true doctrine that the Day of the Lord will come soon. This is being correctly taught in many churches today. It is impossible for a false report to be "true doctrine" - otherwise it would be a TRUE report. Therefore, the false report was not, and could not have been, that the Day of the Lord will come soon, because the Bible teaches the day of the Lord will come soon.The false report then MUST BE that the Day of the Lord is present.

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And again, I have not disagreed with you about this, or stated the contrary.

The VERY PURPOSE of Paul's letter is to tell them how they can know for certain whether the Day of the Lord is present or not. If Paul had written "the day of the Lord has not come" and then before his letter arrived the Day DID COME, his letter would be a lie. What we have is the wisdom of the Holy Spirit. Paul told then how they could recognize when the day of the Lord was present: if the man of sin is revealed, then the DAY is present and had previously started.

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To state that "condition A will not be true unless condition B shall have been true" is not to state that "condition A shall have been true when condition B starts to be true".

Next, consider what Paul is saying: there must be a SIGNIFICANT happening (THE apostasia) that would be easily recognized so when it happened people would then look for the revealing. A falling away does not seem to measure up to anything significant enough. How could anyone at that time know if ENOUGH people had fallen away to be the "significant" falling away? I submit that they could not know...which tells me that was NOT Paul's intent.

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Significance is relative, and not constrained to specificity of numbers or time.

Next, there cannot be much of a time gap between these two events, else they are useless as signs.

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I do not know what the time gap will be, exactly, nor have I stated that it would be a large one.

You are simply mistaken about two things having to be first. If it was as you think, the grammar must be different.

I could go on, but this should be enough to chew on.

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I feel that the grammar does not align with many of the claims you have made.

iamlamad said:

Chapter 11 is a MIDPOINT chapter, so of course the DAY will have begun 3.5 years before the man of sin is revealed.

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Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

There is no 8th trumpet...
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iamlamad said in post 4647:

The people at the 6th seal were wise enough after seeing the signs (knowing Isaiah 2 and Joel 2)to KNOW that the Day of God's wrath had come:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

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Note that those people can simply be mistaken. Also, regarding Isaiah 2:10-21, note that the day of the Lord there has to begin at the 2nd coming, not at the start of the tribulation. For during the 2nd half of the tribulation, it is Satan (the dragon) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") who will be exalted by the world (Revelation 13:4-18), not the Lord, contradicting "the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day" (Isaiah 2:17).

Also, during the 2nd half of the tribulation, the world will worship the ultimate idol, the image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:14-15), contradicting that in that day "the idols he [the Lord] shall utterly abolish" (Isaiah 2:18).

So the people hiding in the rocks at the 2nd coming (Isaiah 2:19-21) has to be a separate instance from the people hiding in the rocks at one point during only the 1st stage of the tribulation (Revelation 6:15-16). It's not like people can hide in rocks only one time. Some people did it way back in 1 Samuel 13:6, for example. And Hosea 10:8b refers to the fall of Samaria in 722 BC (Hosea 10:7-8). And Luke 23:30 can include reference to the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD (Luke 23:28-30). So Revelation 6:16 can be just one more instance, years before the 2nd coming in Isaiah 2:10-21, where "the glory of his majesty" is the same as in Matthew 24:30, at the 2nd coming.

iamlamad said in post 4647:

The people at the 6th seal were wise enough after seeing the signs (knowing Isaiah 2 and Joel 2)to KNOW that the Day of God's wrath had come:

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Regarding Joel 2:31, note that it shows what will happen sometime "before" the day of the Lord (Joel 2:31, Revelation 6:12), as in only a few years before.

Short Timer said in post 4648:

"WHY" would God turn the devil loose on "all kindred, tongues, and nations" if he wasn't "Angry" at the world???

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Note that the righteous church in all nations will suffer through the future tribulation without God being angry at it (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), just as righteous Job suffered at the hands of Satan without God being angry at Job (Job chapters 1-2), and just as the righteous, literal, 1st century AD local church congregation in the city of Smyrna suffered at the hands of Satan without God being angry at that church (Revelation 2:10).

Philippians 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

2 Timothy 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Short Timer said in post 4648:

With a third of the angels kicked out of heaven with satan, and helping the AC, plus God angry at the world, you think you're going to hid in your bunker and neither the demons/AC/God is going to know where you are?????

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God will know. And even if the devil finds out, note that God can still keep some people in the church safe from the devil's attacks during that time:

Revelation 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

Psalms 91
1 ¶He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.
2 I will say of YHWH, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust.
3 Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence.
4 He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler.
5 Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day;
6 Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday.
7 A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee.
8 Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked.
9 ¶Because thou hast made YHWH, which is my refuge, even the most High, thy habitation;
10 There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling.
11 For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.
12 They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone.
13 Thou shalt tread upon the lion and adder: the young lion and the dragon shalt thou trample under feet.
14 Because he hath set his love upon me, therefore will I deliver him: I will set him on high, because he hath known my name.
15 He shall call upon me, and I will answer him: I will be with him in trouble; I will deliver him, and honour him.
16 With long life will I satisfy him, and shew him my salvation.

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The woman in Revelation 12 represents the church (which is Israel: Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). She is clothed with the sun (Revelation 12:1) of righteousness (Malachi 4:2) through her faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22), just as later we see the church clothed with righteousness (Revelation 19:8). The moon under her feet (Revelation 12:1) represents Satan under her feet (Romans 16:20) as she overcomes him spiritually by her faith in Jesus (Revelation 12:11). The crown of 12 stars on her head (Revelation 12:1) represents the 12 apostles (of Matthew 10:2-4, Acts 1:16-26), who have been placed over the church (1 Corinthians 12:28).

Her giving birth to the "man child", and his being caught up to the throne of God (Revelation 12:5) immediately before she flees into the wilderness for a literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6), represents the future, mid-tribulation catching up of the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church in their mortal bodies to the throne of God in heaven (Revelation 14:1,4,5, Textus Receptus), like how Enoch and Elijah were caught up in their mortal bodies to heaven (Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:11).

Her fleeing into and remaining in a protected wilderness place for a literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6,14) represents those in the church who will flee into and remain in divinely-protected wilderness places during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), which will be in the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

The remnant of her seed (Revelation 12:17) represents those in the church during that time who won't flee into wilderness places, but will remain in the cities, and will be persecuted in every nation, imprisoned, and beheaded by the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Also, Genesis 37:9-10 isn't (as is sometimes claimed) being referred to in Revelation 12:1. For in Revelation 12:1, the church/Israel isn't clothed with the man Jacob (Genesis 37:9-10), but with the sun of righteousness (Malachi 4:2), through her faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22), just as later we see the church/Israel clothed with righteousness (Revelation 19:8, cf. also Revelation 21:2,9,12). Also, the church/Israel doesn't have the woman Rachel under her feet (Genesis 37:9-10), but Satan (Romans 16:20), as the church/Israel overcomes him spiritually by her faith in Jesus (Revelation 12:11). And the church/Israel doesn't have Jacob's 12 sons placed over her (Genesis 37:9-10), but the 12 apostles (1 Corinthians 12:28, Matthew 10:2, Acts 1:26), each one of whom will rule over one of her 12 tribes (Matthew 19:28, Luke 22:30).

Short Timer said in post 4648:

God's anger is directed at "ALL FLESH", the cause of sin . . .

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Actually, literal flesh is not the cause of sin. And this mistaken idea brings to mind that believers need to be careful not to be deceived by the Gnostic/antichrist lie that Christ himself isn't in literal flesh (2 John 1:7), and that believers themselves won't forever be in literal flesh. For the Bible shows that on the 3rd day after his death (Luke 24:46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4), Jesus Christ wasn't resurrected as a disembodied spirit, but in his human, literal flesh and bones body (Luke 24:39, Hebrews 2:17). That is why his tomb is empty (Matthew 28:6), and why he still has the wounds of the crucifixion on his resurrection body (John 20:25-29). And Luke 24:39 didn't stop being true once Jesus ascended into heaven. For he will remain forever the human mediator/high priest of believers (1 Timothy 2:5, Hebrews 7:24-26), in human flesh, just like they are in human flesh (Hebrews 2:17). And when he returns, he will still have the wounds of the crucifixion on his resurrection body (Zechariah 13:6, Zechariah 12:10-14).

Gnosticism mistakenly thinks that flesh is evil in itself, and that only pure spirit can be good. But Jesus proves that flesh isn't evil in itself, for he has been made flesh (John 1:1,14, Romans 1:3, Luke 24:39), and remains wholly without sin (Hebrews 4:15). Genesis also proves that flesh isn't evil in itself, but was created by God as something very good (Genesis 1:31). Adam and Eve were flesh, for they were the progenitors of the human race alive today. And they were immortal before they fell into sin, for it was only their falling into sin which made them become mortal (Genesis 2:17). So Adam and Eve started out as immortal flesh. And so the future resurrection (if dead) or changing (if alive) of saved people into immortal flesh bodies like Jesus has (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39, Romans 8:23-25) will be God allowing them to partake of the original, immortal-flesh condition of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden before their fall into sin.

Also, beware the more-general Gnostic lie that even the entire physical universe is evil in itself, and that only a purely-spiritual heaven can be good. For this lie is employed by Gnosticism to wrongly revile the Creator God YHWH as an evil, tyrant, lesser god, whom Gnosticism says created the physical universe to be the foul prison house of human spirits, whom Gnosticism says by some mistake fell from bliss in a purely-spiritual heaven down into the physical universe, to become trapped in suffering, fleshly bodies. No doubt the future Antichrist will employ this lie as part of his utter reviling of YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). But Genesis shows that our physical world was created by YHWH as something very good (Genesis 1:31).

And the Bible shows that the whole plan of Creation wasn't that humans, who are both flesh and spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:23, Luke 24:39), would become purely-spiritual ghosts and float forever on clouds in a purely-spiritual heaven with God, but that God would become both flesh and spirit like man (John 1:1,14), and that God would ultimately come down from heaven to live with man on a future, new earth (Revelation 21:1-4), just as God had walked on the earth in the Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve (Genesis 3:8). Also, on the new earth, saved humanity will be allowed to eat from the literal tree of life (Revelation 2:7, Revelation 22:2,14), just as Adam and Eve hadn't been forbidden to eat from it in their unfallen state (Genesis 2:9,16,17). So, with regard to saved people, God will completely undo the effect of the fall of Adam and Eve. Saved people will be able to live in an earthly, physical paradise forever with God (Revelation 2:7), just as Adam and Eve and their descendants might have done had not Adam and Eve fallen into sin.

So beware the Gnostic lie. Beware the Antichrist.

Short Timer said in post 4648:

Mt 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

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Matthew 24:22, like Mark 13:20, can mean that all flesh on the earth would die if the Lord hadn't already shortened, as in "he hath shortened" (Mark 13:20b), the number of days of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21. That is, the Lord could have already determined, from the beginning of Creation (cf. Isaiah 46:10), that he will return on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). And the Lord will return "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), immediately after its final event, the worldwide destruction during the 7th vial (Revelation 16:19, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6). So Mark 13:20 can mean that if the Lord hadn't shortened the number of days of the tribulation, all flesh on the earth would die during the 7th vial's aftermath, which could be a nuclear-winter scenario (which the Lord will miraculously prevent at his return) brought on by the 10 kings of the Antichrist's empire nuking the cities of the nations at the 7th vial (Revelation 17:16-17a, Revelation 16:19).

Short Timer said in post 4648:

But the fact is God is "sending" the AC to do exactly what God wants done, and that is to kill all flesh, except a "FEW" so small in number a child can write the number.

Isa 10:19 And the rest of the trees of his forest shall be few, that a child may write them.

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Isaiah 10:19 referred to how many soldiers of ancient Assyria were left alive after 2 Kings 19:35. For the context of Isaiah 10:19 is God's judgment of Sennacherib, a king of ancient Assyria, for threatening Jerusalem in the time of Hezekiah (Isaiah 10:5-19; 2 Kings 19:20-37). Similarly, Isaiah 10:20 refers to a remnant of Israelites living in Jerusalem who survived Sennacherib's invasion of Judah (2 Kings 19:30-37).

tanzel said in post 4650:

I can find Resurrection in the Bible, but the Rapture is not in there.

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The English word "rapture" is derived from the root of the Latin word "rapiemur", which is how the old Latin (Vulgate) translation of the Bible translated the original Greek word (harpazo) translated as "caught up" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. So the "rapture" is the church's being "caught up together" to Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), which is the same as the church's being "gathered together" to Jesus at his 2nd coming (2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31, John 14:3), which will occur immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Christians need to be wary of the mistaken idea that no rapture will occur at Jesus' 2nd coming. For such an idea could be employed in our future by the Antichrist's False Prophet (of Revelation 19:20, Revelation 13:13-15) to fool some Christians into thinking that Jesus' 2nd coming has happened (Matthew 24:23-26) without Jesus having to have raptured (caught up together/gathered together) the church to hold a meeting in the sky with him at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31, John 14:3).

tanzel said in post 4650:

Do you believe people go to heaven where Jesus is when they die?

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Yes, in that some do.

For only the physical bodies of the dead in their graves are euphemistically "asleep" (1 Thessalonians 4:13; 1 Corinthians 15:18,51). And only their dead, physical brains are without any thoughts (Ecclesiastes 9:5, Psalms 6:5, Psalms 115:17, Isaiah 38:18a). For the soul is distinct from the body (1 Thessalonians 5:23). And the soul can remain alive even when the body is dead (Matthew 10:28a). And the soul can remain conscious outside of the body, whether the body is still alive (2 Corinthians 12:2-4) or has died (Revelation 6:9-10).

So the souls of the dead remain conscious, either in heaven with Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23, Revelation 6:9-10, Luke 23:43,46, Acts 3:21) or in fiery punishment in Hades (Luke 16:22-24). At Jesus' 2nd coming, he will bring with him from heaven all the souls of all obedient believers who have ever died (1 Thessalonians 4:14). And they will descend to the earth where the graves of their bodies are, and their bodies will be physically resurrected into immortality at that time (1 Thessalonians 4:16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-53, Revelation 20:4-6).

Sometime after the subsequent millennium and Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), the souls in Hades will be physically resurrected, judged, and cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:12-15), which will be the 2nd death (Revelation 21:8). This will be the death of both their resurrected bodies and their souls (Matthew 10:28). And yet, even though they will be dead in both body and soul, their spirits, which are distinct from their bodies and souls (1 Thessalonians 5:23), will remain conscious, and will be tormented along with the spirits of Satan and his fallen angels forever (Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11, Matthew 25:41,46, Mark 9:45b-46, Isaiah 66:24).

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Materialists think that consciousness can involve only that which is physical, and that it arises by having a certain number of neuronal connections in one's brain. So some scientists could be trying to create a supercomputer with enough neural network connections so that (they hope) it will become conscious. But the Bible shows that humans are more than just physical bodies (1 Thessalonians 5:23), and that human souls can have consciousness outside of their bodies, whether their bodies are still alive (2 Corinthians 12:2-4) or have died (Revelation 6:9-10, Luke 16:22b-23). Also, angels have consciousness, even though they are referred to simply as "spirits" (Hebrews 1:7).

So consciousness per se isn't something which requires a certain number of neuronal connections, but can be based on something even more fundamental: spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:23). All consciousness ultimately being based on spirit would make sense, for God is an infinite Spirit and an infinite consciousness (John 4:24, Psalms 139:7-10, Jeremiah 23:24). And if spirit is the same as consciousness, then every kind of created thing can have some consciousness (Revelation 5:13, Mark 4:39-41, Luke 17:6, Matthew 17:20), for everything exists within God (Acts 17:28), having been brought into and maintained in existence by God's Spirit (Psalms 104:30).

A scientific way to think of this would be that the relationship between the spiritual and the physical may be analogous to the relationship between energy and matter. Just as the relationship of energy to matter is summarized by the equation e=mc^2, which means that immense amounts of energy are congealed and compacted, as it were, in order to form each tiny particle of matter, so the relationship between spirit and energy could theoretically be summarized by, for example, the equation s=ec^3, meaning that immense amounts of spirit may be congealed and compacted, as it were, in order to form each tiny photon of energy. And if all matter is based on energy, and all energy is based on spirit, and all spirit is consciousness, then all matter is ultimately based on consciousness, and so all matter can have some consciousness. This would explain how a puff of wind, a wave of water, a tree, or a mountain can obey a human command (Mark 4:39-41, Luke 17:6, Matthew 17:20), and how every kind of created thing can worship God (Revelation 5:13, Psalms 148).