MJ Only Shaving?

Jeremiah3133 · Nov 25, 2015

Hello everyone. I am a Torah keeping Christian (non-Jew). I am not really sure if I would be considered Messianic or part of the Hebrew Roots movement because I honestly do not know the difference. I am new to keeping the Torah though and am trying the best that I can to make sure I am aligning my life in accord with the scriptures.
My question is regarding Leviticus 19:27; 21:5. I have seen some HR websites claim this is a black and white scripture advising us that it is against Torah to shave or shape ones beard. I have heard other HR sites claim that this was just for the Levitical priests because they were not permitted to shave or remove the corners of their beard, possibly due to an unknown pagan practice at the time. So they claim it is not relevant for us as long as we do not "mar" our beards. I am not really sure what they mean by "mar".
I am just wondering if anyone has any information on who this law was for and if it would apply to us?
Thank you in advance!

ContraMundum · Nov 25, 2015

Personally, I don't shave. I was raised Jewish and was never encouraged to do so. I believe that the commandment you ask about was left up to the Jewish nation, under the halachic guidance of the Elders, to work out for themselves. I believe there are several possible ways to live out that commandment. I believe the commandment was made to give the outward appearance of separation from the pagan nations- a picture of holiness but not the substance of holiness, which is a condition of the heart.

In other words, it's really up to you to work out how to keep this for yourself, and it will not make you holy in heart in any case. Nor will it make God love you more, nor will it justify you or forgive you of your sins in God's sight. Do it for love, not merit.

BelieveTheWord · Nov 25, 2015

Jeremiah3133 said:
Hello everyone. I am a Torah keeping Christian (non-Jew). I am not really sure if I would be considered Messianic or part of the Hebrew Roots movement because I honestly do not know the difference. I am new to keeping the Torah though and am trying the best that I can to make sure I am aligning my life in accord with the scriptures.
My question is regarding Leviticus 19:27; 21:5. I have seen some HR websites claim this is a black and white scripture advising us that it is against Torah to shave or shape ones beard. I have heard other HR sites claim that this was just for the Levitical priests because they were not permitted to shave or remove the corners of their beard, possibly due to an unknown pagan practice at the time. So they claim it is not relevant for us as long as we do not "mar" our beards. I am not really sure what they mean by "mar".
I am just wondering if anyone has any information on who this law was for and if it would apply to us?
Thank you in advance!

I've heard some claim that it is in context of ripping the hair out during mourning, and others claim that is an Egyptian custom to meticulously shave and groom their hair, essentially wasting a lot of time on vanity. There can be problems with trying to read a context into the passage. My standpoint is simply you can't go wrong by not shaving.

Sheeple Shepherd · Nov 25, 2015

Jeremiah3133 said:
Hello everyone. I am a Torah keeping Christian (non-Jew). I am not really sure if I would be considered Messianic or part of the Hebrew Roots movement because I honestly do not know the difference. I am new to keeping the Torah though and am trying the best that I can to make sure I am aligning my life in accord with the scriptures.
My question is regarding Leviticus 19:27; 21:5. I have seen some HR websites claim this is a black and white scripture advising us that it is against Torah to shave or shape ones beard. I have heard other HR sites claim that this was just for the Levitical priests because they were not permitted to shave or remove the corners of their beard, possibly due to an unknown pagan practice at the time. So they claim it is not relevant for us as long as we do not "mar" our beards. I am not really sure what they mean by "mar".
I am just wondering if anyone has any information on who this law was for and if it would apply to us?
Thank you in advance!

It's not an unknown pagan practice, it's known.

They were emulating the Romans, began to look Roman.
Yah states that we are to be set apart.

Does it apply to you? are you a Levite? a priest?

Sheeple Shepherd · Nov 25, 2015

Soyeong · Nov 25, 2015

Jeremiah3133 said:
Hello everyone. I am a Torah keeping Christian (non-Jew). I am not really sure if I would be considered Messianic or part of the Hebrew Roots movement because I honestly do not know the difference. I am new to keeping the Torah though and am trying the best that I can to make sure I am aligning my life in accord with the scriptures.
My question is regarding Leviticus 19:27; 21:5. I have seen some HR websites claim this is a black and white scripture advising us that it is against Torah to shave or shape ones beard. I have heard other HR sites claim that this was just for the Levitical priests because they were not permitted to shave or remove the corners of their beard, possibly due to an unknown pagan practice at the time. So they claim it is not relevant for us as long as we do not "mar" our beards. I am not really sure what they mean by "mar".
I am just wondering if anyone has any information on who this law was for and if it would apply to us?
Thank you in advance!

I've seen number of interpretations on that passage. Some think it means that you shouldn't damage your beard, some tht you shouldn't trim your beard, some that you shouldn't trim it back to your face, some that you shouldn't shave your sideburns, some that you shouldn't trim your beard if you keep a beard, and some that it is in regard to a pagan practice. Jesus did have his beard torn out, so that at least is not what is being commanded against. There are times where the Bible instructs them to shave, such as part of the Nazarite vow or if they have an infection, so I don't think it is referring to shaving in general either. The word means to harm, mar, corrupt, blemish, destroy, or to spoil, which I think is not talking about the same sort of thing as trimming, or to make your beard look neat and presentable. I think that the fact that both passages are immediately followed by the command not to cut yourself suggests that is associated with a pagan practice.

Jeremiah3133 · Dec 14, 2015

Sorry for the late response. Thank you for the replies. After more study I feel i would have to agree with those of you who stated it was only for the Livites. The more I study and read the Torah, along with the test of the scriptures, I feel the more I disagree with many within the HRM.

pat34lee · Dec 14, 2015

Just for thought: The following is about David's ambassadors, not Levites.

2 Samuel 10:4-5
4 Wherefore Hanun took David's servants, and shaved off the one half of their beards, and cut off their garments in the middle, even to their buttocks, and sent them away.
5 When they told it unto David, he sent to meet them, because the men were greatly ashamed: and the king said, Tarry at Jericho until your beards be grown, and then return.

BelieveTheWord · Dec 15, 2015

Jeremiah3133 said:
Sorry for the late response. Thank you for the replies. After more study I feel i would have to agree with those of you who stated it was only for the Livites. The more I study and read the Torah, along with the test of the scriptures, I feel the more I disagree with many within the HRM.

Lev 19 is addressing the whole congregation. How do you single this out for the Levites?

Dave-W · Dec 15, 2015

The Conserva-dox rabbi I studied under (who was clean shaven) explained it this way: the Hebrew word in the text for "mar" indicated a scraping action (like shaving with a straight razor) so it did not preclude a scissors type action like his electric razor.

I have seen a lot of Conservative and Modern Orthodox Jewish men who are clean shaven; so I guess in that part of Judaism it has some traction.

Dave-W · Dec 15, 2015

I guess I have a related question:

How would that apply to a Native American who wished to convert to Orthodox or Chassidic Judaism? (they can not grow any facial hair)

BelieveTheWord · Dec 15, 2015

DaveW-Ohev said:
The Conserva-dox rabbi I studied under (who was clean shaven) explained it this way: the Hebrew word in the text for "mar" indicated a scraping action (like shaving with a straight razor) so it did not preclude a scissors type action like his electric razor.

This is why I think this commandment might matter. There are so many ways to try to work around it, and none of them are clear. The Romans didn't even exist in ~1400 BC. On the flip side, growing a bread isn't a big deal (unless you can't actually grow one). Maybe it's like an acknowledgement to The Creator to look like you were created to look?

Dave-W · Dec 15, 2015

BelieveTheWord said:
Maybe it's like an acknowledgement to The Creator to look like you were created to look?

And Pyas do that HOW exactly?

BelieveTheWord · Dec 15, 2015

DaveW-Ohev said:
And Pyas do that HOW exactly?

Please clarify "Pyas". :scratch:

Dave-W · Dec 15, 2015

BelieveTheWord said:
Please clarify "Pyas".

Look at the twisted hair on each side;

BelieveTheWord · Dec 15, 2015

Sorry Dave, I still don't know what "Pyas" means. I don't think the concept of "shachath" excludes keeping things cut to a reasonable length. It doesn't bother me if others take it to that level though.

yonah_mishael · Dec 15, 2015

BelieveTheWord said:
This is why I think this commandment might matter. There are so many ways to try to work around it, and none of them are clear. The Romans didn't even exist in ~1400 BC. On the flip side, growing a bread isn't a big deal (unless you can't actually grow one). Maybe it's like an acknowledgement to The Creator to look like you were created to look?

Then why the circumcision?

yonah_mishael · Dec 15, 2015

BelieveTheWord said:
Sorry Dave, I still don't know what "Pyas" means. I don't think the concept of "shachath" excludes keeping things cut to a reasonable length. It doesn't bother me if others take it to that level though.

"Pyas" is supposed to be "pe'ot" (פאות) in Hebrew (link).

yonah_mishael · Dec 15, 2015

DaveW-Ohev said:
Look at the twisted hair on each side

Pe'ot don't have to be twisted.

BelieveTheWord · Dec 15, 2015

yonah_mishael said:
Then why the circumcision?

First thing is that I believe that circumcision was originally pretty minimal. So it wouldn't have changed the natural function.
Second is that it isn't out there for everyone to see.

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