There was no "before" before the Big Bang

PsychoSarah said:

The Jews might have, but not everyone wanted him crucified. I would imagine that most of the people around didn't know enough about the situation to even care; public punishment was just their only entertainment. I view it, from the perspective of Christianity, as one of the strangest and most unnecessary deaths sanctioned by god. I find it even stranger that people use a torture device as their symbol of worship.

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Most people have NO idea why it was absolutely necessary for Jesus to give His life for the sins of mankind. First, God told everyone to obey ALL of the commandments, but No man could do so in the Flesh. Then, John the Baptist came and told everyone to repent and be baptized in water, for the remission of their sins, but this was also rejected by most of mankind.

God did the ONLY thing possible to save us from our own sins, in order to fill Heaven with perfect people. He gave His only begotten Son, the only God ever formed physically, the only man who EVER lived that perfectly sinless life God commands and the ONLY man who could give His life for our sins. God knew that there was but ONE thing about people that was perfect and that was their Faith in God.

God accepted the Sacrifice of Jesus' perfectly sinless life and counts mankind's FAITH in His death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus, which God, Himself gives to us, according to the Scriptures, as payment in full for the sins and violence caused by mortal mankind. God counts us perfect even as He is perfect IF we are in Christ Spiritually.

It's been the same since the beginning of the physical world. ONLY God is good/perfect and the only way for mankind to be perfect, is to be in God. Jesus IS God and those who have been born again Spiritually have also been born Eternally for we will live with Jesus forever in the Age of Joy, the Great Sabbath, the 7th Day, which has NO ending. Amen?

Aman777 said:

Most people have NO idea why it was absolutely necessary for Jesus to give His life for the sins of mankind. First, God told everyone to obey ALL of the commandments, but No man could do so in the Flesh. Then, John the Baptist came and told everyone to repent and be baptized in water, for the remission of their sins, but this was also rejected by most of mankind.

God did the ONLY thing possible to save us from our own sins, in order to fill Heaven with perfect people. He gave His only begotten Son, the only God ever formed physically, the only man who EVER lived that perfectly sinless life God commands and the ONLY man who could give His life for our sins. God knew that there was but ONE thing about people that was perfect and that was their Faith in God.

God accepted the Sacrifice of Jesus' perfectly sinless life and counts mankind's FAITH in His death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus, which God, Himself gives to us, according to the Scriptures, as payment in full for the sins and violence caused by mortal mankind. God counts us perfect even as He is perfect IF we are in Christ Spiritually.

It's been the same since the beginning of the physical world. ONLY God is good/perfect and the only way for mankind to be perfect, is to be in God. Jesus IS God and those who have been born again Spiritually have also been born Eternally for we will live with Jesus forever in the Age of Joy, the Great Sabbath, the 7th Day, which has NO ending. Amen?

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Couldn't find Sarah's original comment to respond to, but I agree with yours and would put it this way about the cross:
The point is not about the instrument of torture and death but Who it was who actually chose to suffer this way. It was God come down from heaven in human form, who chose to identify this much with humanity and its sin and suffering in order to save those who would believe. The symbol of the cross also has multiple meanings: the crisis point of all history where heaven and earth intersected (in Christ), the crossroad of life’s decisions, our own choosing to pick up our own ‘cross’ and die to ourselves but live for God, etc. The cross is a symbol of worship because it represents the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, it reminds us of Him and what He did.

Dr Bruce Atkinson said:

Couldn't find Sarah's original comment to respond to, but I agree with yours and would put it this way about the cross:
The point is not about the instrument of torture and death but Who it was who actually chose to suffer this way. It was God come down from heaven in human form, who chose to identify this much with humanity and its sin and suffering in order to save those who would believe. The symbol of the cross also has multiple meanings: the crisis point of all history where heaven and earth intersected (in Christ), the crossroad of life’s decisions, our own choosing to pick up our own ‘cross’ and die to ourselves but live for God, etc. The cross is a symbol of worship because it represents the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, it reminds us of Him and what He did.

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Amen, brother and God bless you.

Aman777 said:

Most people have NO idea why it was absolutely necessary for Jesus to give His life for the sins of mankind. First, God told everyone to obey ALL of the commandments, but No man could do so in the Flesh. Then, John the Baptist came and told everyone to repent and be baptized in water, for the remission of their sins, but this was also rejected by most of mankind.

God did the ONLY thing possible to save us from our own sins, in order to fill Heaven with perfect people. He gave His only begotten Son, the only God ever formed physically, the only man who EVER lived that perfectly sinless life God commands and the ONLY man who could give His life for our sins. God knew that there was but ONE thing about people that was perfect and that was their Faith in God.

God accepted the Sacrifice of Jesus' perfectly sinless life and counts mankind's FAITH in His death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus, which God, Himself gives to us, according to the Scriptures, as payment in full for the sins and violence caused by mortal mankind. God counts us perfect even as He is perfect IF we are in Christ Spiritually.

It's been the same since the beginning of the physical world. ONLY God is good/perfect and the only way for mankind to be perfect, is to be in God. Jesus IS God and those who have been born again Spiritually have also been born Eternally for we will live with Jesus forever in the Age of Joy, the Great Sabbath, the 7th Day, which has NO ending. Amen?

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Actually, if you are referring to the 10 commandments, not only is it possible to follow all of them, but plausible for a person to manage it.

God is also the only thing punishing people for these perceived sins, most of which the God of the bible is just as guilty of. Heck, Jesus is a child of adultery, in a sense. In the end, the deity you believe in isn't saving us from ourselves, but from its own rage. And I question this "perfection of faith". If faith were perfect, various degrees of doubt would not exist.

Belief doesn't make a perfect person, this deity being willing to forgive crimes because of belief is spiritual bribery. Would you want murderers and rapists to be immune to prosecution for their crimes, on the condition that they were Christians?

Who wants to be perfect anyways? Perfection is a burden, not a gift, and becoming perfect would deprive you of your personality. What point is there in hobbies or anything else fun if there is no chance of failure?

PsychoSarah said:

Actually, if you are referring to the 10 commandments, not only is it possible to follow all of them, but plausible for a person to manage it.

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Then show us one man in Scripture who was sinlessly perfect except Jesus.

****God is also the only thing punishing people for these perceived sins, most of which the God of the bible is just as guilty of. Heck, Jesus is a child of adultery, in a sense. In the end, the deity you believe in isn't saving us from ourselves, but from its own rage. And I question this "perfection of faith". If faith were perfect, various degrees of doubt would not exist.

You confuse God with Satan, the incarnation of the Darkness. God is Love and Satan is Hate, misery and death.

*** Belief doesn't make a perfect person, this deity being willing to forgive crimes because of belief is spiritual bribery. Would you want murderers and rapists to be immune to prosecution for their crimes, on the condition that they were Christians?

Belief is in the unique and specific Gospel of Jesus Christ, His death for our sins, His burial, and His resurrection from the dead on the third day according to the Scriptures. Believing His Gospel (good news) gives eternal life to those who believe in His Gospel by Faith, which is a Gift from the Father. Eph 2:8 BTW, David was a murderer who will be in Heaven, not by his evil deeds, but by His Faith.

*** Who wants to be perfect anyways? Perfection is a burden, not a gift, and becoming perfect would deprive you of your personality. What point is there in hobbies or anything else fun if there is no chance of failure?

I want to be perfect since ONLY the perfect are immortal. That is God's secret which He reveals to His children. We are alive forevermore thanks to Jesus. Jesus is Lord to the Glory of God the Father. IF I had to spend Eternity on this lost and dying world, I would agree with your view, but thank God, I will live forever with Jesus in the 3rd Heaven. I can hardly wait to fly. Amen?

Aman777 said:

Then show us one man in Scripture who was sinlessly perfect except Jesus.

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Every baby that dies in the bible. Potential future sin is irrelevant, they never got the chance to break the Commandments. But it is shockingly hard to find people in the bible that do not break them, and part of the time they are breaking them by order of god. In reality, I don't have much of a problem finding people that don't bear false witness, murder, steal, or even break the sabbath. I don't like working on my weekends. Regardless, completely possible for people to obey the commandments, even if you combine the actual ones with the stereotypically accepted ones.

Aman777 said:

You confuse God with Satan, the incarnation of the Darkness. God is Love and Satan is Hate, misery and death.

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God self describes as angry and jealous, and acts like it too. Only a heinous creature requires MURDER AND OBEDIENCE in order to forgive. A truly loving god shouldn't need crimes to be committed in order for crimes to be forgiven.

Aman777 said:

Belief is in the unique and specific Gospel of Jesus Christ, His death for our sins, His burial, and His resurrection from the dead on the third day according to the Scriptures. Believing His Gospel (good news) gives eternal life to those who believe in His Gospel by Faith, which is a Gift from the Father. Eph 2:8 BTW, David was a murderer who will be in Heaven, not by his evil deeds, but by His Faith.

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Belief is far from unique to Christianity. In fact, it is a component of every religion that has ever existed. The fact that David gets to be in heaven despite being a murderer, while others are in hell that committed no such crime, is the injustice of the afterlife you believe in.

Aman777 said:

I want to be perfect since ONLY the perfect are immortal. That is God's secret which He reveals to His children. We are alive forevermore thanks to Jesus. Jesus is Lord to the Glory of God the Father. IF I had to spend Eternity on this lost and dying world, I would agree with your view, but thank God, I will live forever with Jesus in the 3rd Heaven. I can hardly wait to fly. Amen?

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Then you aren't really immortal, because your flaws define you just as much as your positive attributes. You will disappear if your afterlife exists, for what remains of you will be altered so much as to leave a different being behind. This being will not be you. This being won't even be objectively better than you, given how much must be lost in this foolish pursuit of perfection. What will remain is a shadow of a person, the memories without the emotion, for without sorrow, joy is meaningless, and without suffering, what could be special about any pleasure? Your heaven is so vacuous, I would actually rather have hell, for at least there, who I am would actually be retained. As it were, I don't believe either exist, but do know you aren't making heaven sound very appealing, when I would rather suffer for eternity.

This thread is starting to border on Apologetics..
Please refrain from it.

freezerman2000 said:

This thread is starting to border on Apologetics..
Please refrain from it.

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Sorry, but I'm a Christian speaking to an atheist. She's an old online friend and we bounce things off each other. How can an Atheist learn what Christian's believe unless they tell us their position? Would you suggest we go to another thread? God Bless you

Aman777 said:

Sorry, but I'm a Christian speaking to an atheist. She's an old online friend and we bounce things off each other. How can an Atheist learn what Christian's believe unless they tell us their position? Would you suggest we go to another thread? God Bless you

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We could take this to private messages if it is such a problem, I do not mind.

Aman,There is a forum for Apologetics..
Apologetics is frowned upon in other forums because it has a tendency to derail threads.
Some threads where it is not supposed to be discussed have actually been shut down because of it.
Thanks

PsychoSarah said:

We could take this to private messages if it is such a problem, I do not mind.

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Perhaps they would let us discuss things in the Apologetics thread. I think it's good to see both sides. Here's a link:

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/christian-apologetics-outreach-sign-up-thread.7918242/

Aman777 said:

Perhaps they would let us discuss things in the Apologetics thread. I think it's good to see both sides. Here's a link:

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/christian-apologetics-outreach-sign-up-thread.7918242/

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That link error messaged me. As an atheist, I might not be allowed on that thread.

PsychoSarah said:

That link error messaged me. As an atheist, I might not be allowed on that thread.

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Not according to the moderator. The thread is designed to allow unbelievers to discuss the creation without citing them for apologetics violations. Amen?

Aman777 said:

Then show us one man in Scripture who was sinlessly perfect except Jesus.

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If you interpret generations as to imply 'period of time' and not as one's "descendants, or offspring," then Noah was perfect in his time.

" These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God " Gen 6:9

Have you considered the passages in Job 1:8 or Romans 4:8

029b10 said:

If you interpret generations as to imply 'period of time' and not as one's "descendants, or offspring," then Noah was perfect in his time.

" These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God " Gen 6:9

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True, but one has to read the verse before to see WHY Noah was perfect.

Gen 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Grace (unmerited reward) through Faith is what makes any man "perfect" in God's eyes.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

*** Have you considered the passages in Job 1:8

Sure and it's the same. The only thing perfect about Humans is our Faith in God.
Rom 3:23 For ALL have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

*** or Romans 4:8
Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

See? It doesn't say that the man is without sin but that the Lord does not impute sin to him because of his Faith. It's the way Grace through Faith worked in Adam, Job, and today. God Bless you

Aman777 said:

True, but one has to read the verse before to see WHY Noah was perfect.

Gen 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

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Or that Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD because he was perfect in his generations.
In Job 8:20 it is written, "Behold, God will not cast away a perfect man, neither will he help the evil doers:"

Aman777 said:

Grace (unmerited reward) through Faith is what makes any man "perfect" in God's eyes.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

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It is not our faith, but the LORD's faith whereby he bestows his grace.

I heard one preacher claim that all men had faith, yet the scripture states that all men have the measure of faith, not that all men have faith. IMO, the measure of faith represents that all men believe, thus believing is a measure of faith. But believing alone is not faith. As written in 2 Thess 3:2: "And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith."

Faith begins by believing that all things are possible, which is not to say that all things are possible or true. (Nark 9:23) In such, are all things possible with God? If all things are possible with God, then it must be possible that God would lie? Yet in Hebrews 6:18 it is written, "That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:"

But rather unless one has knowledge of the principle which would disprove the truth regarding the possibly that something is not true, (Matt 24:23)
Thus, they should keep an open mind regarding its truth. (1 Cor 13:7)
The next step is to my make inquiry of the matter. (Duet 13:14)
Then to examine the matter.(Ps 26:2)
Then, to test the matter.(Romans 12:2)
And then hold on to that which is true. (1 Thess 5:21)

Aman777 said:

*** Have you considered the passages in Job 1:8

Sure and it's the same. The only thing perfect about Humans is our Faith in God.
Rom 3:23 For ALL have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

*** or Romans 4:8
Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

See? It doesn't say that the man is without sin but that the Lord does not impute sin to him because of his Faith. It's the way Grace through Faith worked in Adam, Job, and today. God Bless you

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True, because we are not under the law, but under grace. Sin is transgression of the law, therefore only those under the law can sin. Not to say that man cannot err, nor is it to say that the LORD can't impute it as sin if a man intentionally errs. Yet, the Word was not given to condemn man but rather that to instruct man in the way of righteousness.

However, why is written that Jesus declared in Mathew 9:13, Mark 2:17 and Luke 5:32;
I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

In Matthew 5:48, it is written that Jesus commands, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." In verses prior to Deut 18:13 it tells man what he must do to be perfect, thus in verse 13, it is written "Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God."

029b10 said:

Or that Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD because he was perfect in his generations.
In Job 8:20 it is written, "Behold, God will not cast away a perfect man, neither will he help the evil doers:"


It is not our faith, but the LORD's faith whereby he bestows his grace.

I heard one preacher claim that all men had faith, yet the scripture states that all men have the measure of faith, not that all men have faith. IMO, the measure of faith represents that all men believe, thus believing is a measure of faith. But believing alone is not faith. As written in 2 Thess 3:2: "And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith."

Faith begins by believing that all things are possible, which is not to say that all things are possible or true. (Nark 9:23) In such, are all things possible with God? If all things are possible with God, then it must be possible that God would lie? Yet in Hebrews 6:18 it is written, "That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:"

But rather unless one has knowledge of the principle which would disprove the truth regarding the possibly that something is not true, (Matt 24:23)
Thus, they should keep an open mind regarding its truth. (1 Cor 13:7)
The next step is to my make inquiry of the matter. (Duet 13:14)
Then to examine the matter.(Ps 26:2)
Then, to test the matter.(Romans 12:2)
And then hold on to that which is true. (1 Thess 5:21)



True, because we are not under the law, but under grace. Sin is transgression of the law, therefore only those under the law can sin. Not to say that man cannot err, nor is it to say that the LORD can't impute it as sin if a man intentionally errs. Yet, the Word was not given to condemn man but rather that to instruct man in the way of righteousness.

However, why is written that Jesus declared in Mathew 9:13, Mark 2:17 and Luke 5:32;
I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

In Matthew 5:48, it is written that Jesus commands, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." In verses prior to Deut 18:13 it tells man what he must do to be perfect, thus in verse 13, it is written "Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God."

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My point is that Abraham was perfect in God's sight because of his faith in God. So was Job, Enoch and Elijah, but they were men with faults. Abraham lied about being married to his wife. Job was self righteous. That is WHY Scripture says:

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him: for he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Those who do not have faith in God are Spiritually DEAD to God and He to them. Amen? Mat 8:22

Hi guys,

In my opinion. There was 'befores' before the big bang, because the big bang is the fourth day of creation.
I explain my thought in my comic book to make us easier to imagine.
http://m.tapastic.com/episode/235239
Please read it and give comments
And special thanks if you want to share it.

Aman777 said:

Those who do not have faith in God are Spiritually DEAD to God and He to them. Amen? Mat 8:22

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So when you say those who don't have faith in God are spiritually dead, do you mean as in their spirit is dead?

But to say those who do not have faith in God are spiritually dead is like saying that anyone can't walk on water doesn't have any faith.

It is written in Matthew 14:29 that Peter walked on the water. Yet became afraid and started to sink and called out to Jesus. Thus it is written in Matthew 14:31, "And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?" So if Peter only had a little faith, yet having only a little faith allowed Peter to walk on water, then what does that say of them that can't walk on water?

029b10 said:

So when you say those who don't have faith in God are spiritually dead, do you mean as in their spirit is dead?

But to say those who do not have faith in God are spiritually dead is like saying that anyone can't walk on water doesn't have any faith.

It is written in Matthew 14:29 that Peter walked on the water. Yet became afraid and started to sink and called out to Jesus. Thus it is written in Matthew 14:31, "And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?" So if Peter only had a little faith, yet having only a little faith allowed Peter to walk on water, then what does that say of them that can't walk on water?

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No, since those who have never been born Spiritually in Christ, remain dead in their trespasses and sins.

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

All people MUST be born Spiritually in Christ and that happens ONLY by the agreement of the Trinity. Gen 1:26 and John 14:16

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.