The word of God describes a resurrection and actually says resurrection, so its know need to believe in a event that means something else.
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Why do people believe in a Rapture?
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The word of God describes a resurrection and actually says resurrection, so its know need to believe in a event that means something else.
keras
Writer of studies on Bible prophecy
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John 3:13 is perfectly clear: No human goes to heaven.... Jesus confirms that in John 17:15 where He prays to the Father: I do not ask that You take them out of this world..... Abrogating this truth places you into the category of a scripture denier.
I understand very well that a gentile believer is now deemed to be a descendant of Abraham. Romans 9:8 There is only ONE people of God, John 10:16, Ephesians 4:4-6, to say otherwise is again a denial of scripture that you are guilty of.
This statement is pure pretentious rubbish and shows a very un-Christian attitude toward your brethren. I do pray that I will be worthy to be gathered and go to live as God always intended His people to be; in His holy Land, being His witnesses and a light to the nations. Isaiah 42:6, Isaiah 43:10 And I pray that all true believers will be there, enjoying the blessings that God has promised His righteous people, as they fulfil their destiny. Isaiah 51:1-11 Listen, all My people who follow the right path...do not fear your enemies, they will be gone......you will enter Zion with shouts of joy.....
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All those verses means something else, none of those verses connect with a Rapture event. Its only the Resurrection, you have the spirit of deception. Like Pau say in Romans 16:18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple. Your time will come to end...my friend.
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Since the New Jerusalem is the size of a continent (1,500 x 1,500 x 1,500 miles), but as high as it is wide and deep (a perfect cube) it does NOT come down to earth. It descends from Heaven and hovers over the earth so that it replaces the sun and gives light to the inhabitants of the earth. Just as the Holy of Holies was a perfect cube in the Tabernacle and in the Temple, the New Jerusalem will become the eternal Holy of Holies as a gigantic perfect cube. Please review Revelation very carefully.
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Which heaven are referring to? You have to keep in mind Jesus say in John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. You have to be clear when u speak of heaven. Didn't Jesus also say in John 8:21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come. 22 Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come. Plain and simple, but most people ignore Jesus words, these days.
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Postvieww
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Lamad said:
You are mixing up verses that don't go together.
For the readers: take note that the 7th trumpet sounds at the MIDPOINT of the week, not at the end.
Take note pure opinion and declaration as if fact, no references to back up opinions. I gave scriptural reasons in post # 4354 why 7th trumpet is at the end and therefore prove the scriptures I referenced do go together.
Also take note that it is only a theory that the Matthew 24 gathering is the rapture.
Matt24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
1 Thess 4: 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Note Matt 24:27 & 30 Coming of the Son of Man
1 Thess 4:15 Coming of the Lord
Matt 24:30 Coming in the clouds
1 Thess 4:17 caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:
Matt. 24:31 with a great sound of a trumpet
1 Thess 4:16 with the trump of God:
Matt 24:31 they shall gather together his elect
1 Thess 4:17 caught up together with them
Matt 24:31 he shall send his angels
1 Thess 4:16 the voice of the archangel
Lamad says its only a theory, look for him and others to show with scripture why these are not the same event. Here is what you’ll get:
1 More declarations it is not true with no evidence
2 Statements like if you want an appointment with wrath go ahead
3. From other posters if you could just understand the scriptures you would see they are right
4. Point out minor differences in wording in these two passages while ignoring differences in wording in 1 Corin 15:51-52 and 1 Thess 4:15-17 and claiming they are the same event.
5. or just plain diversion from the points made here to change the dialogue.
6. Statements like well a better question would be.Or tell me why this or that to change the subject.
If it is only a theory it is a theory with much scriptural evidence to back it up. It is a theory that refutes the false teaching of the pre-trib rapture.
I have no problem with anyone disagreeing with me, just use scripture to do it.
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In Revelation 10:7, "finished" in the original Greek is "teleo" (G5055), which can mean "performed" (Luke 2:39). Revelation 10:7 means that the prophetic writings regarding the tribulation will finish being performed at the 7th trumpet of the tribulation. For out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening will come the final stage of the tribulation, the 7 plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1).
In Revelation 10:7, the "mystery" is currently known by the church, just as, for example, the "mystery" in Romans 16:25-26 and Colossians 1:26 is currently known by the church. For the mystery in Revelation 10:7 has already been "declared to his servants the prophets" (Revelation 10:7), just as the "mystery" in Romans 16:25-26 and Colossians 1:26 is already "made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets" (Romans 16:26).
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Indeed not.
But note that he was simply quoting what some other people said (Revelation 6:15-17), and they don't have to be right.
For the tribulation's 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-17) will actually happen sometime before the day of the Lord (Joel 2:31, Revelation 6:12), as in only a few years before. And the day of the Lord itself won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't happen until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). Similarly, the day of the Lord's wrath (Psalms 110:5) won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19-21).
So the people quoted at the 6th seal (Revelation 6:17), during only the first stage of the tribulation, could be just as mistaken as Job was when Job said that what was happening to him was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11). Just as what was happening to Job was actually Satan's wrath against him, not God's wrath, so the 6th seal could actually be Satan's wrath, not God's wrath. And just as the writer of the book of Job didn't go out of his way to correct Job's mistaken statement in Job 19:11, and just as the apostles John and Matthew didn't go out of their way to correct the mistaken statements of the people they quoted in John 7:12b and Matthew 27:63a, so the apostle John could have not gone out of his way to correct the statement of the people he quoted in Revelation 6:17.
After the tribulation's 6th seal will occur its 7th seal (Revelation 8:1), out of which will come its 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-2). Note that nothing requires that any of the first 6 trumpets' events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will be God's wrath. The 5th trumpet's events will be the work of strange locust-like beings from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:2-10), led by a fallen angel from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:11). And the 6th trumpet's events to the end of Revelation 9 will be the work of weird horse-like beings led by 4 fallen angels previously bound at the Euphrates (Revelation 9:14-19). So even though good angels of God will sound the first 6 trumpets, this could be announcing God's allowing the wrath of Satan to destroy 1/3 of different things (Revelation 8:7-12, Revelation 9:15,18), just as Satan will subsequently, mid-tribulation, be allowed by God to cause 1/3 of the angels (i.e. his fallen angels) to be cast down to the earth permanently (Revelation 12:4,9).
Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will happen before the Antichrist's (the individual-man aspect of the beast's) future, literal 3.5-year worldwide Luciferian/Satanic reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). And the events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 could be used by Satan to help prepare the world to welcome that reign. For what he could do is first take great pleasure in causing the destruction in each event, but then claim that the destruction isn't from him, but from YHWH, and that YHWH is a cruel tyrant god who hates mankind and only wants to make it suffer, while he (Satan, as "Lucifer") only wants the best for mankind (cf. Mark 8:33b). In this way, he could deceive the world into turning away from YHWH and instead worshipping him (the dragon) and the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). The Antichrist will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36).
After the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year reign (Revelation 13:5-7) is declared legally over at the sounding of the tribulation's 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the 7 plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath will come out of the heavenly-temple opening of the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1). The vials will then be poured out on the Antichrist's followers as God's judgment for their receiving the Antichrist's mark and worshipping his image (Revelation 16:2), and for their killing of people in the church (Revelation 16:6-7, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).
During the Antichrist's worldwide reign, people in the church will be hated and killed in every nation for refusing to renounce the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the witness of Jesus Christ (Revelation 20:4), for refusing to accept the antichrist lies that Jesus himself isn't the Christ (1 John 2:22), and that Christ himself isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the sound doctrine of the Bible, the Word of God (Revelation 20:4; 2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4), for refusing to depart from the Biblical faith and to give heed instead to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils (1 Timothy 4:1-2). They will be beheaded for refusing to worship the Antichrist's image (Revelation 20:4, Revelation 13:15). And all of this will be Satan's wrath against the church (Revelation 12:17), not God's wrath, for the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9).
Even when God's wrath comes in the 7 vials (Revelation 16), the tribulation's final stage, because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), none of the vials will be directed at any of those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have prepared for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had prepared for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:11,13).
Jesus will return right after the 7th-and-last vial is completed (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21, Matthew 24:29-30), and he will bring the 2nd-coming wrath of God on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:15-21). But before that 2nd-coming wrath begins, the church will be caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).
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Note that today, more than 6,000 years may have already elapsed since Adam's creation.
For various scriptures make it possible to estimate the year BC that Adam (as opposed to the earth) was created, by working back from the year BC that Solomon's temple began to be built. Historians say that it began to be built about 966 BC. And the scriptures show that it began to be built 480 years after Israel's Exodus from Egypt (1 Kings 6:1). And Israel had spent 430 years in Egypt before the Exodus (Exodus 12:40-41). And Israel entered Egypt when Jacob was 130 (Genesis 47:9). And Jacob was born when his father Isaac was 60 (Genesis 25:26). And Isaac was born when his father Abraham was 100 (Genesis 21:5). And Abraham was born when his father Terah was about 70 (Genesis 11:26). And Terah was born when his father Nahor was 29 (Genesis 11:24). And Nahor was born when his father Serug was 30 (Genesis 11:22). And Serug was born when his father Reu was 32 (Genesis 11:20). And Reu was born when his father Peleg was 30 (Genesis 11:18).
And Peleg was born when his father Eber was 34 (Genesis 11:16). And Eber was born when his father Salah was 30 (Genesis 11:14). And Salah was born when his father Arphaxad was 35 (Genesis 11:12). And Arphaxad was born when his father Shem was 100 (Genesis 11:10). And Shem was born when his father Noah was 502 (Genesis 11:10 and Genesis 7:6). And Noah was born when his father Lamech was 182 (Genesis 5:28-29). And Lamech was born when his father Methuselah was 187 (Genesis 5:25). And Methuselah was born when his father Enoch was 65 (Genesis 5:21). And Enoch was born when his father Jared was 162 (Genesis 5:18). And Jared was born when his father Mahalaleel was 65 (Genesis 5:15). And Mahalaleel was born when his father Cainan was 70 (Genesis 5:12). And Cainan was born when his father Enos was 90 (Genesis 5:9). And Enos was born when his father Seth was 105 (Genesis 5:6). And Seth was born when his father Adam was 130 (Genesis 5:3).
Adding up the numbers of years above, we see that Adam was created about 4114 BC. This lines up with the fact that our current human civilization began about 4000 BC. If Adam was created about 4114 BC, this means that 6,000 years since Adam's creation were completed back at the end of about 1886 AD, and that the 7th millennium began about 1887 AD. (But this doesn't mean that the millennium of Revelation 20:4-6 has started yet.) Also, it is curious that the next year (1888 AD) Blavatsky published her book (The Secret Doctrine) referring to the "New Age". Also, it is curious that the Mayan calendar begins in 3114 BC, exactly 1,000 years after 4114 BC. Also, the numbers of years in the scriptures referenced above show that Abraham (who was first promised the land of Israel by God: Exodus 32:13) was born about 1,948 years after Adam's creation, just as the modern state of Israel was established in 1948 AD.
That's right.
The trumpets and vials don't occur at the same time, for the trumpets will occur before the vials and affect only 1/3 of different things (Revelation 8:7 to 9:18), whereas the vials will affect things in their entirety (Revelation 16). The 7 plagues of the 7 vials will come out of the heavenly-temple opening of the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1).
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Note that if even those who are "strangers" in Israel can inherit the land of Israel (Ezekiel 47:21-23), then certainly believing Gentiles, who are "no more strangers" to Israel (Ephesians 2:12,19), will inherit the land of Israel during the future millennium of Revelation 20:4-6. And they will inherit the land and all the other promises given to Israel (Ephesians 2:12,19, Ephesians 3:6, Galatians 3:29, Genesis 12:7) along with all the elect Jews who have ever been saved in the past or who will get saved in our future, including at Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 12:10-14, Romans 11:25-32).
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The rebudding of the fig tree (Matthew 24:32) can refer to the 1948 reestablishment of Israel, just as Jesus' cursing of the literal, fruitless fig tree (Matthew 21:19) foreshadowed his curse on the part of Old Covenant Israel which rejected him (Matthew 21:43), for a fig tree can represent Israel (Hosea 9:10, Joel 1:6-7, Luke 13:6-9). And the Israel which was reestablished in 1948 is the same Old Covenant Israel which Jesus cursed at his first coming. For it still rejects Jesus and still considers itself to be under the Old Covenant. This Israel merely "putting forth leaves" again (Matthew 24:32) in 1948 was nothing more than a restoration to what the fig tree in Matthew 21:19,43 had been before it was cursed by Jesus and then destroyed in 70 AD: a tree with leaves, but without any fruit. And the unbelieving, Old Covenant Israel which was reestablished in 1948 may never bear fruit. For it could be destroyed before Jesus' 2nd coming, during a future war, by a Baathist army, just as it had been destroyed in 70 AD by a Roman-empire army.
But Jesus' kingdom is still called "Israel" (John 1:49, John 12:13-15, John 19:19, Luke 22:30). And at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will sit on the earthly throne of David (Luke 1:32-33, Isaiah 9:7), and restore the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6-7, Acts 3:20-21).
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2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 1:6 only refer to those fallen angels who committed the crime in Genesis 6:2,4 (cf. Job 1:6, Job 2:1, Job 38:7 for "sons of God" meaning angels).
2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 1:6 don't refer (as is sometimes claimed by amillennialism) to Revelation 20:1-6.
Amillennialism ends up (inadvertently) logically requiring the error of full preterism (2 Timothy 2:18). For claiming that the church's resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 is already present requires that Jesus' 2nd coming has already happened. For the church's resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 won't happen until the 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Also, amillennialism ends up (inadvertently) logically requiring the error of partial preterism. For claiming that the resurrection of those beheaded by the Antichrist during the future tribulation and their subsequent reigning on the earth with the returned Jesus for the full 1,000 years of the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29) is already present, requires that the Antichrist's literal, 3.5-year worldwide reign during the tribulation (Revelation 13:4-18) has already happened. Also, amillennialism is mistaken because it requires that the devil is currently bound in the bottomless pit (Revelation 20:1-6), when in fact he is currently walking around on the earth seeking whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8), and he won't be bound until the 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19 to 20:3).
Revelation 12:7-9 hasn't happened yet, but is part of the things which must be hereafter (Revelation 4:1b).
Just as what John saw in Revelation 4:2-11 are literal things in heaven, so what he saw in Revelation 12:7-9 is a literal, future, mid-tribulation war in heaven, between Michael and his angels on the one hand, and Satan and his angels on the other, resulting in Satan and his angels being defeated and cast down to the earth permanently (Revelation 12:8-9,12-13).
Revelation 12:7-9 shows that Michael and his angels are more powerful than Satan and his angels. But this doesn't mean that Satan won't be able to deceive the world (Revelation 12:9) into thinking that he and his angels (with the help of a united mankind) will be able to defeat YHWH and his army (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19).
Some of the unsaved people in the millennium may be utterly destroyed due to continued disobedience (Psalms 2:9b, cf. the idea of Jeremiah 19:11), while others won't be destroyed because they will submit themselves to Jesus (Psalms 2:10-12). For just as when someone figuratively "breaks" a horse, he doesn't destroy it, but forces it to submit to him, so Psalms 2:9 doesn't require that all the unsaved people left alive at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:39b-40) will eventually be destroyed by him. Instead, Psalms 2:9a can refer to some of them being only figuratively "broken" by him, so that they will submit to his physical, worldwide reign during the millennium (Psalms 66:3, Psalms 72:8-11). That is why other verses say that Jesus and the physically resurrected church will "rule" the nations with a rod of iron (Revelation 19:15, Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6), not kill all of them. And why after the millennium, there will still be nations (ethnos) alive on the earth who will be deceived by Satan into committing the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).
Also, in Psalms 2:9a, the original Hebrew word (ra'a, H7489) translated as "break" can be translated simply as "hurt" (Psalms 15:4b), in a sense of suffering trouble which is less then total destruction. The ways that Jesus will "hurt", or punish, disobedient nations during his millennial rule on the earth is shown in Zechariah 14:16-19.
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Amen.
All those in the church, whether Jews or Gentiles, are spiritually Abraham's seed (Galatians 3:29). And Abraham's seed is Israel (Isaiah 41:8, Romans 11:1; 2 Chronicles 20:7). So the entire church is Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). Not just the Jews in the church (e.g. Romans 11:1b), but also the Gentiles in the church, are spiritually Abraham's seed of promise (Romans 9:7,8,24), as Isaac was (Galatians 4:28), and as Jesus is (Galatians 3:16,29). And so Gentiles in the church, along with Jews in the church, are heirs of all the promises made by God to Israel (Ephesians 3:6, Ephesians 2:12,19, Romans 15:27, Galatians 3:29b, Romans 11:17,24).
Similarly, just as all believers are individual branches in the vine which is Jesus (John 15:5), the only way to salvation (John 14:6, Acts 4:12), so all believers are individual branches in the good olive tree of Israel, the Jews' own tree (Romans 11:17,24, Jeremiah 11:16-17). For all Jewish believers remain part of Israel (Romans 11:1) as the natural branches in the tree of Israel (Romans 11:24). And all Gentile believers have been grafted as branches from a wild olive tree into the tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), so they can partake of the salvation of the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). This doesn't mean a wild branch becomes a natural branch, that a Gentile believer becomes a genetic Jew, but that Gentile believers, even while remaining branches from a wild olive tree, even while remaining genetic Gentiles, are still grafted in to become part of the good olive tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24).
Amen.
All genetic Jews are part of genetic Israel (Romans 9:3-5). But being part of the true, spiritual Israel, the true, spiritual seed of Abraham, the promised seed, isn't based on genetics (Romans 9:6-24), but on God's election (Romans 9:11), which includes both some Jews and some Gentiles (Romans 9:24).
All believing Jews and all believing Gentiles are part of the true Israel (Ephesians 2:12,19, Romans 11:17,24, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10, John 10:16), the seed of Abraham (Galatians 3:28-29, Romans 4:16-17), the promised seed, just as Isaac was (Galatians 4:28). And so all Gentiles in the church, along with all Jews in the church, are heirs of all the promises made by God to Israel (Ephesians 3:6, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Romans 15:27).
In Romans 9:8, by "the children of the flesh", Paul means genetic Jews, who are the genetic children of Abraham (Romans 11:1, Acts 13:26, John 8:37). And by "the children of God"/"the children of the promise", Paul means the elect, both some Jews and some Gentiles (Romans 9:24, Galatians 4:28). Romans 9:6-8 means not all Jews are elect (John 8:37-47, John 10:26), and some Gentiles are elect (Romans 9:24, John 10:16, John 11:52). Only a remnant of genetic Israel is elect (Romans 9:27), just as only a remnant of humanity in general is elect (chosen) (Matthew 22:14, Matthew 7:14).
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Regarding 2 Peter 3:10-13, in the day of the Lord will indeed occur the destruction of heaven (the 1st heaven: the sky/atmosphere) and the earth (its surface) at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11, Revelation 21:1). And this will be followed by the creation of a new atmosphere and surface for the earth (2 Peter 3:13, Revelation 21:1) onto which New Jerusalem, God the Father's house (John 14:2, Revelation 21:2-3), will descend from the 3rd heaven (Revelation 21:2-3).
But the day of the Lord won't immediately bring the destruction of earth's atmosphere and surface. For the day of the Lord will begin at Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8) as a thief (2 Peter 3:10a, Revelation 16:15). And after his 2nd coming, he will establish his kingdom physically on the earth with the physically resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:3-21).
And after the 1,000 years, the Gog/Magog rebellion will occur (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39). And after its defeat, at least 7 more years will occur (Ezekiel 39:9b), before the earth's atmosphere and surface are destroyed at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11). All these events, from Jesus' 2nd coming to the great white throne judgment, will be part of the day of the Lord. For it is not a 24-hour day, but to God is like a 1,000-year "day" (2 Peter 3:8).
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Regarding "Church Rapture/Fulness of Gentiles", are you thinking of the following verse?
Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
If so, in Romans 11:25 the Gentiles are genetic Gentiles, the people addressed throughout Romans 11:13-31, who aren't genetic Jews like Paul the apostle (Romans 11:1,14). Both individual genetic Jewish believers (natural branches) and individual genetic Gentile believers (engrafted wild branches) are branches in the good olive tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24). For when Gentiles become believers they "come in" (Romans 11:25) to be part of Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29). The fruit of each individual branch would be the good works of each individual (Colossians 1:10). It is the genetic Jews who are "blind in part", meaning that some (in the sense of not all) of them are spiritually blind while others aren't (Romans 11:7-10). For "blindness in part is happened to Israel" (Romans 11:25) in its genetic sense (Romans 11:1,14), that is, genetic Jews (Acts 22:3). Also, in Romans 11:25-26, "Israel" includes elect genetic Jews who aren't yet believers (Romans 11:28), but who will become believers eventually (Romans 11:26).
When Paul says "until the fulness (pleroma) of the Gentiles be come in" (Romans 11:25), he means until a full number of genetic Gentile individuals have become saved, which won't happen until near the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Romans 11:26), immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-30), just as Luke 21:24 shows that "the times of the Gentiles" won't be "fulfilled (pleroo)" until the completion of the treading down of Jerusalem during the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 11:2b, Revelation 13:5-18), during the 2nd half of the tribulation.
Immediately after the tribulation, when the whole world will see the amazing return of Jesus himself (Matthew 24:29-30, Revelation 1:7), all the still-living, unsaved, elect genetic Jews will be ashamed, and will all weep and become saved when they see Jesus and realize that he truly is their salvation (Zechariah 12:10-14, Romans 11:26-29). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, just as when genetic Jews believe in Jesus now they become part of the church. For now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).
And the genetic Jews who will become believers at the 2nd coming will all become part of the church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit, who is "the spirit of grace and of supplications" in Zechariah 12:10 (Hebrews 10:29c, Romans 8:26), just as genetic Jewish believers today become part of the church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit. For it is by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit that both genetic Jewish believers and genetic Gentile believers become part of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13).
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Also, if the genetic Jews who will become saved at the 2nd coming had been religious Jews, they won't continue to mistakenly try to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, because they will then be believers in the truth that on Jesus' Cross, for both Jews and Gentiles (John 11:51-52), of all times, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was completely and forever abolished (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18), disannulled (Hebrews 7:18), rendered obsolete (Hebrews 8:13, Galatians 3:2-25, Galatians 4:21 to 5:8), taken away and replaced (Hebrews 10:9) by the better hope (Hebrews 7:19), the better covenant (Hebrews 7:22, Hebrews 8:6-12), the 2nd covenant (Hebrews 8:7, Hebrews 10:9), of Jesus' New Covenant law (Galatians 6:2, John 1:17, Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 12:24, Hebrews 9:15), so that the law was changed (Hebrews 7:12).
All believers, both Jews and Gentles, of all times, are delivered from the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, and shouldn't keep it (Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Galatians 2:11-21), or have any desire to keep it (Galatians 4:21 to 5:8, Galatians 3:2-25). Believers keep the spirit of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Romans 7:6) by loving others (Galatians 5:14, Romans 13:8-10), by doing to others as they would have others do to them (Matthew 7:12).
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Also, the fullness of the Gentiles coming in during the tribulation doesn't mean that no Gentiles will be added to the church during the millennium, because they will (Isaiah 66:19-20). For "fullness" doesn't have to mean "no more after that". Even after a cup has been filled with wine, more wine can be added to it, so that the "cup runneth over" (Psalms 23:5b). Also, it doesn't matter that the new believers during the millennium will be added to the church/bride (cf. Ephesians 4:4-6, Ephesians 5:30-32) after the marriage occurred at the 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7). For as many husbands have discovered, a bride can increase in size after her wedding.
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Note that all of the Old Covenant feasts can have a New Covenant fulfillment without requiring a pre-tribulation rapture.
For Christ's death was the fulfillment of the Passover (Leviticus 23:5; 1 Corinthians 5:7b), and his resurrection was the fulfillment of the firstfruits of Leviticus 23:10 (1 Corinthians 15:20). The general salvation of the church could be a subsequent fulfillment of the firstfruits of Leviticus 23:10 (James 1:18). And the 144,000 part of the church could be a subsequent fulfillment of the firstfruits presented to the Lord (Leviticus 23:10b-11, Revelation 14:4b).
The 50 days, firstfruits, and 2 loaves of Leviticus 23:16-17 could have been fulfilled at the Pentecost in Acts 2 and subsequently, when the firstfruits of the Spirit (Romans 8:23) were poured out on (one loaf) the Jews in the church (Acts 2:14-18) and then on (another loaf) the Gentiles in the church (Acts 10:45b).
The feast of trumpets of Leviticus 23:24 could be fulfilled at the 2nd coming, when the 2nd-coming trumpet will sound (Matthew 24:30-31; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 1 Corinthians 15:52) after the 7 trumpets of the tribulation have sounded (Revelation 8:2).
The day of atonement of Leviticus 23:27-28 could be fulfilled when Christ saves all of the elect unbelieving Jews alive at the 2nd coming (Romans 11:26-28, Zechariah 12:10-14).
The feast of tabernacles of Leviticus 23:34 could be fulfilled at the marriage feast (Revelation 19:9) which will be on the earth after the 2nd coming (Isaiah 25:6-9). Paul quotes from Isaiah 25:8 in 1 Corinthians 15:54b, showing that the earthly feast of Isaiah 25:6-9 will be connected with the resurrection of the church at the 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23, Revelation 20:4-6).
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1 Corinthians 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
This means that everyone in the church will be resurrected at the same time: at Jesus' never-fulfilled 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).
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Full preterism sometimes claims that we are each individually resurrected and caught up into heaven (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) when we die. But that isn't the case. For 1 Thessalonians 4:17 will include "we which are alive and remain", as well as "them", meaning as well as all the dead in the church (of all times), who will all be physically resurrected at the same time, at Jesus' never-fulfilled 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), at the single moment that the last trumpet will sound (1 Corinthians 15:52; 1 Thessalonians 4:16, Matthew 24:31), which won't be until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).
So just as even Jesus himself wasn't resurrected at the moment that he died, but was resurrected on the 3rd day after he died (1 Corinthians 15:4), so believers aren't resurrected at the moment that they die, but must wait to be resurrected until Jesus' never-fulfilled 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which could occur near the start of the 3rd, thousand-year period (or "day": 2 Peter 3:8) after Jesus' 1st coming (the 1st thousand-year period being the years 1 to 1000 AD, the 2nd thousand-year period being the years 1001 to 2000 AD, and the 3rd thousand-year period being the years 2001 to 3000 AD).
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Lamad said:
Maybe a better question is, show us how they are the same event, when the bible gives no hint they are the same?
I’ve already done that in post #4353. Maybe since you took the time to respond to the challenge, you could just answer it with scripture rather than just changing the subject with what you term “ a better question”.
Lamad said: So for the first 3 1/2 years of the NEW millennium, Jesus destroys the earth. All the seas turn to blood. All fresh water turns to blood. Finally the earth shakes so mightily that the mountains shake down into the earth. It does not happen all at once:
Care to give us a scripture for this statement? I’m here to learn.
Lamad said:
So there is NO NEED to separate what human reasoning wishes to put together.
That was an easy dodge for you to pull off.
Lamad said:
There is no resurrection at the 7th trumpet. Jesus does not come at the 7th trumpet. All that is false doctrine and human imagination.
Ok, then show us in the text of Revelation where there is one. Not where human imagination thinks they see one or a certain doctrine needs one to be. It should be easy for you to show us where it is since you can with such certainty show us where it is not.
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Short Timer said :
In the second coming/first resurrection, NOBODY is resurrected from a grave, unsaved dead stay dead and all OT/church/Rapture/killed in the trib, return "WITH JESUS", so all righteous who have departed this world will be with Jesus when he comes, none will be in a grave.
Since you call the second coming the first resurrection how is it that “NOBODY is resurrected from a grave”. Answer this question first , then maybe we will deal with the rest of your post.
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A "mystery Rapture" has nothing to do with a "Mystery Jesus" and a "Mystery Church",
How you arrive at that conclusion is a real mystery.
Ya'll pretty much sound like that crew Jesus confronted in Matt 23, everybody teaching whatever, even disagree among themselves and nobody with sufficient "Humility" to "Hear God" and "know the Truth".
God chose Israel to be a "light to the world", it didn't matter if they were obeying or disobeying, regardless if it was right or wrong, everything they done people still do today.
But you'll be hard pressed to find many Christians who will admit to committing the same sins Israel committed,
but Satan still has his "den of vipers" preaching against the "TRUTH" (Jesus) today just as then,
But like them, they don't "Question" their "Righteousness" according to the "Righteousness of God",
And that "Righteousness" doesn't even start until sufficient "HUMILITY" is found in the person to crucify the "Body of sin" and "Carnal mind" and open up the "EARS" to hear "JESUS" speaking through the Holy "Ghost of Jesus".
Ac 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
With people being people the world over, nothing has really changed, the same kind of people that existed in Jesus time still exist today, and they are the same for the same reasons,
They refuse to "SEE" the light that Israel is to the world and commit the same sins themselves which will result in the same condemnation as Israel.
Ro 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Ro 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.
Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
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Resurrection means for the soul to be "Back on the earth alive", after having left.
The Young man/little Girl Jesus "Resurrected" and Elijah's little boy wasn't resurrected from a "Grave", but from their "Death bed".
People are Resurrected from a Grave, death bed, Hell, and even from "Heaven" when they are "Back on the earth alive" in returning with Jesus in the second coming.
Your fouled up "daffynition" of "Resurrection" is fouling up your interpretation.
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iamlamad
Lamad
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When God sends a SIGN of an event, how long then before the event? 7 years? NOT!
First John recorded an earthquake. Then He said the sun turned dark and the moon into blood. Then He spoke of how the people reacted AFTER they saw the signs in the sun and moon and the earthquake. Then John wrote, STILL IN CHAPTER 6 AND STILL ABOUT THE 6th SEAL: THE DAY OF HIS WRATH HAS COME. WHY did these people think the Day of the Lord had come? Obviously they KNEW Isaiah 2 and they KNEW Joel 2.
What this is telling us is that the Day of the Lord had officially opened right then, and the first trumpet judgment came as PART of the Day of the Lord. Joel again confirms this by speaking of the Day of the Lord when the cattle are perplexed and the sheep because the fire has burned up all the pasture. John wrote of the first trumpet that ALL THE GRASS and 1/3 of the trees are burned up.
Joel 1:
15 Alas for the day! for the day of the Lord is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.
18 How do the beasts groan! the herds of cattle are perplexed, because they have no pasture; yea, the flocks of sheep are made desolate.
19 O Lord, to thee will I cry: for the fire hath devoured the pastures of the wilderness, and the flame hath burned all the trees of the field.
20 The beasts of the field cry also unto thee: for the rivers of waters are dried up, and the fire hath devoured the pastures of the wilderness.
Rev. 8:7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.
Isaiah 13:6
Howl ye; for the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
Isaiah 13:9
Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Zephaniah 1
18 Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the Lord's wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land
Zechariah 14
1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
Notice that It is the Day of the Lord when God gathers all nations. Notice that it is the day of the Lord when Jerusalem is attacked. All this happens BEFORE JESUS returns. The nations are ALREADY in the valley of Megiddo when Jesus comes. This verse alone proves that THE DAY comes before Jesus comes.
Next, you would have to have extremely thick preconceived glasses to miss the fact that the trumpet judgments will DESTROY the earth, burn up the grass, turn seas and fresh water into blood, and kill 1/3 of the population in only one judgment. As Isaiah said, "Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it." I say again, one would have to be blind not to recognize the trumpet judgements as fulfilling this prophecy.
However, I am convinced you will dodge around this also, for your mind is fixed on anything but TRUTH.
Remember that the Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night.-
Yes, indeed, exactly what Paul wrote AT HIS RAPTURE passage that you don't believe! If you believed Paul, you would KNOW that 1 Thes. 4 takes place JUST BEFORE the great earthquake and indeed is the CAUSE of the great earthquake at the 6th seal. In case you missed it, Paul tells us that JESUS COMES - it is A COMING - at this time, but ONLY to the air. But HE COMES and The DAY OF THE LORD BEGINS - right where John says it does - right where you can't believe it. Remember, the DAY comes as a thief because HE comes as a thief.
The 6th seal is not the Day of the Lord.If you are waiting for Jesus coming as a thief at the 6 Th seal you will wait in vain
He comes a moment BEFORE the 6th seal. I will not wait in vain, but you will be left behind because you can't believe what Paul wrote. In other words, there is ABSOLUTELY a coming of Christ just before the 6th seal, and HIS COMING is the trigger for the earthquake and the start of the Day of the Lord,
Obviously the Day of the Lord is Jesus second coming (Parousia)
In fact, Paul uses that word in 1 thes 4. It WILL BE the second time He comes, but ONLY TO THE AIR. Joel 3 speaks both of the DAY and of His coming. But that will be His Rev. 19 coming, while Joel 2 speaks of His 1 Thes. coming: TWO DIFFERENT COMINGS for TWO DIFFERENT PURPOSES.
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iamlamad
Lamad
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I think a better definition would be a dead body from a grave is resurrected (lifted up) but WITH A RESURRECTION BODY (immortal) and joined with the spirit. The spirits of the damned in hell certainly don't come back with Jesus!
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Job 19:26
And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
Luke 24:39
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. Pretty good definitions of resurrection , I'll stick with these you hang on to your "daffeynition".
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It is going to be difficult for New Jerusalem to hover over an earth that has been burned up and dissolved...Since the New Jerusalem is the size of a continent (1,500 x 1,500 x 1,500 miles), but as high as it is wide and deep (a perfect cube) it does NOT come down to earth. It descends from Heaven and hovers over the earth so that it replaces the sun and gives light to the inhabitants of the earth. Just as the Holy of Holies was a perfect cube in the Tabernacle and in the Temple, the New Jerusalem will become the eternal Holy of Holies as a gigantic perfect cube. Please review Revelation very carefully.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
It replaces the present earth, would be a better description.
.
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iamlamad
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I’ve already done that
Ha ha! you may THINK you have, but it is all in your head. God laid it all out in the order it will happen, but you IMAGINE He did it wrong, because two events seem in YOUR MIND to be the same event. As I said before, a mountain moving out of its place and a mountain disappearing are two different things, just like the moon darkening and the moon turning to blood are two different things. Oh, you imagine they could possibly be the same and wish to build a strong doctrine out of it, as if it were truth. The things you have said are only possibilities: they COULD be speaking of the same thing even though they are written slightly different. Well, the chances they are the same when they happen in two different times are very slim indeed. Maybe there is a 1% chance a mountain moving out of its place is the same as the mountain disappearing. I will stick with the 99% chance. I know, if a mountain only moved, later I could STILL CLIMB it. The chances are slim indeed that anyone could climb a mountain that sunk down into the earth. I think there is a very small percentage of chance that if the moon appeared blood red, And it happened only once, that God would show it in two places in scripture and in one say it was only darkened.
What you have done is taken these tiny possibilities and delare it is truth, and wonder why others don't buy it.
I’m here to learn.
No you are not. Why don't you show a scripture that proves it is NOT true. That is the way you operate. You come up with a possibility only and then say, show us a scripture to prove it untrue. The prove is the way God wrote it.
That was an easy dodge for you to pull off.
You are the one that thinks the way God wrote it was wrong. You must come up with a preponderance of evidence to prove it.
I have shown you things over and over, and you don't believe them. Go back and study 1 Thes. 5. What Paul wrote there fits "hand in glove" with the 6th seal. John did not see the rapture, so did not write of it, but we know it happens even if He did not write of the event taking place. Showing us the raptured church in heaven right after the rapture is proof enough for me.
All you have done is taken things that have very limited possibility of being true, and declared it as truth.
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