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Biblical Evidence or Verses for the Sinner's Prayer.
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Well, holding to a particular belief in the Bible does not equate with me in being a Seventh Day Adventist. That would be like saying I am a Catholic just because I believe in the Trinity. In my short profile status (that is in each post) I list myself as non-denominational. While I believe there are a lot of false religions or churches out there, truth on particular subjects in the Bible cannot always be determined by placing people into categories. Truth is determined by the Word of God by the Holy Spirit and by being a objective student of the Word (Even when a belief may seem to conflict with a church's popular beliefs).
But for your information: I used to believe in Eternal Concious Torment because that is what the Popular churches all taught. In fact, I used to try and even defend such a position (But in the back of my mind I knew it was a hollow defense). Conditional Immortality (i.e. that the wicked will be destroyed in the Lake of Fire) was not something I jumped into believing overnight. In fact, there was a long time I was on the fence in believing both views as being a possibility. I made a long list of Scripture verses for and against both positions. But one day, I did some more study in regards to Conditional Immortality and I came to realize it was the Biblical position that had the most verses supporting it.
But let's stop and think for a moment with one's heart, though.
Do you believe God is good?
Do you believe you can defend the goodness of God in the Bible?
Do you believe there is no mystery to explaining His goodness?
I believe this is where you will be stumped to do so when it comes to ECT (Eternal Conscious Torment).
I also believe you cannot make a real world example (parable) in explaining the goodness of God in regards to torturing people way beyond what the crimes call for, too.
I believe in Dualistic Conditionalism (Which is under the umbrella of Conditional Immortality). Dualistic Conditionalism is the belief that there is a real hell and, the wicked go there to await the Judgment whereby they will be cast into the Lake of Fire to be destroyed or erased from existence. So as for the Story of Lazarus and the Richman: I believe it is a literal and real story. But I believe the rich man was not tortured in any flames, though. I believe he was tormented by the heat of the flame that was in front of him that was within the great gulf between him and Abraham. Whether people are conscious the whole time in hell (or whether "time" operates differently in hell) is unknown to me at this current date. So I have left that part as a mystery until God chooses to reveal that to me with His Word (if it is there for me to know). For we know in part and we prophecy in part. But after the Judgment, the Bible is VERY VERY VERY clear that wicked will be destroyed in the Lake of Fire. Jesus said, fear not him who can destroy the body, but fear the one (i.e. Jesus) who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna (i.e. Gehenna being the Lake of Fire) (Mattthew 10:28). For the KJV renders this as "hell" but the Greek word is "Gehenna."
Also, the word "forever" and it's related words does not always mean "forever" as in reference to all eternity, either. "Forever" can be in reference to one's alotted time here. The Scriptures also make it clear that "life" can only be gained by Jesus Christ. No Jesus and no eternal life or immortality. The Scriptures also make reference to many passages of how the wicked will also be destroyed, turned into ash, or stubble, too. I provided verses (or source links to verses) for all of this.
Anyways, if you are truly interested in checking out these verses, I have talked a lot about this subject here:
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/104767-what-your-view-hell-lake-fire-loving.html
Side Note:
Oh, and please take note that I was banned wrongfully at this other website for voicing my views strongly against OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved). They said I was attacking people's salvation, but in no way did I do so. I spoke from a third person viewpoint (i.e. not talking to anyone specifically but in general). In fact, a week before I was banned, a woman (Who believed in OSAS and who had great influence at the site) try to goad me to judge her salvation personally. I refused to do so. But that did not stop them from banning me for false reasons anyways. For there was no warning or anything. I was just banned. Anyways, I will continue to pray for them (Despite their wrongful action against me).
Anyways, I hope you check out the verses at the link I provided for yourself and pray over them. In other words, do not take my word for it. Do your own study and take your time and seek the Lord's guidance.
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- Jul 22, 2014
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Anyways, getting back on topic about the Sinner's Prayer, here is a quote from an article at Bible Study Tools in regards to confessing sins:
Source:
http://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionaries/bakers-evangelical-dictionary/confess-confession.html
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"Confession of Sins. If confession of faith is more prominent in the New Testament, confession of sins is found more often in the Old Testmaent. The word that is most often used in such contexts is the Hebrew verb yada [h'd"y], which can mean either to praise or give thanks to God or to confess sins before God. Indeed, in some verses ( Jos 7:19 ), it is not clear which is meant. Confession of sin in the Old Testament often comes in the context of the offering of sacrifices. Leviticus 5:5 makes confession of sin the intermediate step between awareness that a sin has been committed (vv. 3-4) and the offering of an atoning sacrifice (v. 6). Here we see the idea of confession as a conscious and public acknowledgement that God's holy law has been transgressed (see also Lev 26:40 ; Num 5:7 ). The Old Testament also stresses the way in which representative figures among the people of Israel can publicly confess sins on behalf of the people as a whole (the high priest on the Day of Atonement [ 16:21 ; Ezra 10:1 ] [Nehemiah 1:6 ; 9:2-3 ] [Daniel Daniel 9:4 Daniel 9:20 ]). This acknowledging before God of the sins of the nation as a whole (an acknowledgment in which individual Israelites were to take part) was a necessary prerequisite for God's mercy and restoring grace in the midst of judgment. The confession needed, of course, to be sincere. Jeremiah's call on the people to acknowledge their guilt ( 3:13 ) leads only to an insincere confession (14:20) that the Lord does not heed. One way in which the sincerity of confession can be tested is by accompanying Acts of repentance. In Ezra's day, for example, confession of sin in taking foreign wives was to be followed by a putting away of those wives ( Ezra 10 ). But the Old Testament also recognizes the importance of individual confession of sins and in contexts not obviously tied to the sacrificial system. David reflects, "I acknowledged my sin to you and did not cover up my iniquity. I said, I will confess my transgressions to the Lord'and you forgave the guilt of my sin" ( Psalm 32:5 ). David experienced the principle stated in Proverbs 28:13: "He who conceals his sins does not prosper, but whoever confesses and renounces them finds mercy."
Confession of sins in the New Testament (usually expressed with the compound word exomologeo) is mentioned in only five passages. This is not, however, to minimize its importance, as confession is certainly included in the widespread call to "repent" from one's sins. Thus, John the Baptist's call for repentance is met by the people's confession of their sins ( Matt 3:6 ; Mark 1:5 ). Perhaps the most familiar text on confession is 1 John 1:9: "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness." Making forgiveness conditional on confession raises theological problems for some."
Confession of sins in the New Testament (usually expressed with the compound word exomologeo) is mentioned in only five passages. This is not, however, to minimize its importance, as confession is certainly included in the widespread call to "repent" from one's sins. Thus, John the Baptist's call for repentance is met by the people's confession of their sins ( Matt 3:6 ; Mark 1:5 ). Perhaps the most familiar text on confession is 1 John 1:9: "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness." Making forgiveness conditional on confession raises theological problems for some."
Source:
http://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionaries/bakers-evangelical-dictionary/confess-confession.html
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Doesn't the devil already know He exists. Like proof. Not faith.
The devils were kicked out of heaven, of course they know that God exists.
But their eternity is already decided, so of course they tremble.
This argument always makes me wonder about the person using it.
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- Jul 22, 2014
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It's not my argument. It's an argument that is a part of God's Word. So take it up with Him.
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You said that the devil believes in Christ and used that as an argument against faith.
But I clarified to you that the devil does not have faith, the devil has knowledge. The devil was in heaven with the others. The devil has proof.
I am clarifying. I see that you have nothing to say, which is fine.
Because the devil believing in God has nothing to do with faith.
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- Jul 22, 2014
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I was quoting James 2:19. James point is that belief alone is not enough in one's faith for it to be true. He is saying a true faith will bring forth works otherwise it is a dead kind of faith (James 2:17). Granted, the works James here is speaking of are God directed works and not man directed works; Whereas Paul speaks of Initial Salvation and man directed works in Ephesians 2:8-9. Meaning, Paul says that salvation can first be received as a gift. But that gift is Jesus Christ. And Christ works in us to do of His good will and pleasure. Hence, why Ephesians 2:10 then says why we are created IN Christ Jesus for GOOD works (i.e. God directed works).
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Why make any kind of theological statement that weighs upon unknows and is so based on individual opinion? Why not just say I'm not sure, we will find out in heaven?
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But that is not a valid argument. Because demons knowing God is real is belief, yet belief as a part of faith (not knowing for sure) is not the same. I really think that this argument is against what you guys believe, because what demons know is different than belief that is part of faith.
What it shows in a mangling of words that two totally different circumstances are made out to be the same.
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- Jul 22, 2014
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I would like for you to provide me with a commentary on the following verse.
"You believe that there is one God; you do well: the demons also believe, and tremble." (James 2:19).
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Because the demons fate is set. They will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. Because they know that God cannot be unholy, they know there fate is truth. I would be trembling to if my fate was eternal damnation.
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Since Christ came to earth to die for the sheep (human persons), that does not include fallen angels or demons.
Demons actually have a different origin than fallen angels. They are of the Nephilim, a breed created when the sons of God, (fallen angels) took human women and produced the Nephilim (giants). When the giants died in the flood, their spirits were allowed by God to remain as demons to I suppose plague fallen mankind. They were part of the cause of the great flood, corrupting the entire earth, including all flesh, even the animals.
Their purpose was to prevent Messiah from being born of an entirely human uncorrupted being, Mary. For Christ to born of a women, Satan could have no part in that relationship whatsoever.
In Eden God had foretold to the adversary of God, Satan, that the seed of the women would crush his head.
So then Satan's scheme was to corrupt the daughters of Eve by corrupting the DNA of the human race to create these hybrid Nephilim giants and breed the entire human race out of existence.
The serpent's seed is in scripture here in verse 15.
Genesis 3
14 So the Lord God said to the serpent:
“Because you have done this,
You are cursed more than all cattle,
And more than every beast of the field;
On your belly you shall go,
And you shall eat dust
All the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.”
Jude also makes mention of the fallen angels who sinned in this way, that God placed them in chains.
6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;
7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these (angels who fell to earth), having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
The angels who fell to earth left their proper abode heaven and gave themselves over to sexual immorality gone after strange flesh (women, which was not their right to do so), as did also the people of Sodom and Gomorrah. The book of Enoch, which I enjoy reading , goes into great detail about the fallen angels and the Nephilim.
Demons actually have a different origin than fallen angels. They are of the Nephilim, a breed created when the sons of God, (fallen angels) took human women and produced the Nephilim (giants). When the giants died in the flood, their spirits were allowed by God to remain as demons to I suppose plague fallen mankind. They were part of the cause of the great flood, corrupting the entire earth, including all flesh, even the animals.
Their purpose was to prevent Messiah from being born of an entirely human uncorrupted being, Mary. For Christ to born of a women, Satan could have no part in that relationship whatsoever.
In Eden God had foretold to the adversary of God, Satan, that the seed of the women would crush his head.
So then Satan's scheme was to corrupt the daughters of Eve by corrupting the DNA of the human race to create these hybrid Nephilim giants and breed the entire human race out of existence.
The serpent's seed is in scripture here in verse 15.
Genesis 3
14 So the Lord God said to the serpent:
“Because you have done this,
You are cursed more than all cattle,
And more than every beast of the field;
On your belly you shall go,
And you shall eat dust
All the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.”
Jude also makes mention of the fallen angels who sinned in this way, that God placed them in chains.
6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;
7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these (angels who fell to earth), having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
The angels who fell to earth left their proper abode heaven and gave themselves over to sexual immorality gone after strange flesh (women, which was not their right to do so), as did also the people of Sodom and Gomorrah. The book of Enoch, which I enjoy reading , goes into great detail about the fallen angels and the Nephilim.
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DeaconDean
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Wasn't this before the crucifixion?
Can you supply verses that support this after the death and resurrection?
God Bless
Till all are one.
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DeaconDean
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Yes, I can apply verses in the New Testament to our lives before the cross because the Lord did not teach primarily Old Covenant in the New Testament but He taught the New Covenant. Also, there is no name under Heaven whereby man can be saved. This applies thru out all time. All men are saved by the Messiah. Even the OT saint is saved by Christ's sacrifice and resurrection. Salvation has always been by faith in the Messiah. Salvation has always been by man falling down before God and calling out to Him to save him from his own sin. But Jesus is now our advocate and high priest. Jesus also says that repentance is no different, either. He says the Ninevites will rise up in Judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah. Now, yes, again, this is pre-cross, but if repentance had changed after the cross, then surely Paul and the other apostles would say that Jesus's words on repentance in regards to Jonah do not apply anymore.
But Paul says if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness is proud and they know nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4).
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Why did John say that he should be baptized by him?
Well, because Jesus is God.
Jesus' is also our substitute, too.
For He was wounded for our transgressions and crushed for our iniquities.
Thus, we are to walk as he walked.
Jesus wants us to do as He also has done.
We are to conform to the image of the Son.
But there are obviously things Jesus did that we cannot do because He is God.
For example: We are not to receive worship. Yet, Jesus received worship.
But we know that the baptism that Jesus had done was not the one sinful man does. Jesus did not partake of the "baptism of repentance" that John was calling men to partake in. Why? Jesus had no sins to confess. He is God and was sinless. So confession wasn't even an option for Him. So Jesus could not partake of the baptism for the purpose of being called to confess sin like the others who were there. Jesus merely was setting an example for us because He is our substitute. Yes, people need to be baptized in Jesus' name (or in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost). But baptism was not a radically different alien concept before the cross as it was after the cross. Both served the same purpose in the fact that it was an open declaration of one's faith before God and their need for a Savior publicly.
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It doesn't say faith alone is insufficient. Your using a scripture about devil's is really not proof.
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To show us the difference between faith (in something that you do not have proof of) vs. believing (in something you do have proof of).
Only those without spiritual discernment would put them on the same plane together. They clearly are not.
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James is saying that you cannot have belief alone without works otherwise one has a dead faith (James 2:17). He uses the example of saying that the demons also believe and tremble to show that you cannot just merely believe. While demons cannot have faith like we can and be saved, the point James is saying that we cannot be like the demons and merely believe only. For James whole point is that a man is not justified by belief alone but they are are also justified by their works, too (James 2:24). James is not talking about man directed works or works of the Law (of which is the point of topic Paul is talking about in Romans 4, etc.).
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