The Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus Explained

Der Alter said:

First you say "eternal punishment" then you say "unjust torture." If God imposes it then it is neither unjust nor torture. Here are some quotes from the early church on eternal punishment.

“The Epistle of Barnabas” (70-130AD)
The way of darkness is crooked, and it is full of cursing. It is the way of eternal death with punishment.

Ignatius of Antioch (110AD)
Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death. how much more if a man corrupt by evil reaching the faith of God. for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him. (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1-2)

From Clement of Rome (150AD)
If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment (“Second Clement” 5:5)

But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire, the righteous, who have done good, and who have endured tortures and have hated the luxuries of life, will give glory to their God saying, ‘There shall be hope for him that has served God with all his heart!’ (“Second Clement” 17:7)

From “The Martyrdom of Polycarp” (155AD)
Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire (“Martyrdom of Polycarp” 2:3)

From Tatian (160AD)
We who are now easily susceptible to death, will afterwards receive immortality with either enjoyment or with pain.

From Athenagoras of Athens (175AD)
Athenagoras was a philosopher and citizen of Athens who became a Christian (possibly from Platonism) and wrote two important apologetic works; “Apology” or “Embassy for the Christians”, and a “Treatise on the Resurrection”:

We are persuaded that when we are removed from the present life we will live another life, better than the present one…or, if they fall with the rest, they will endure a worse life, one in fire. For God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, who are mere by-products. For animals perish and are annihilated. On these grounds, it is not likely that we would wish to do evil. (“Apology”)

From Theophilus of Antioch (181AD)
Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God. . . . [God] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things. . . . For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire (“To Autolycus” 1:14)

From Irenaeus (189AD)
…Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Saviour, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, ‘every knee should bow, of things in heaven,, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess’ to Him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all; that He may send ‘spiritual wickednesses,’ and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, together with the ungodly, and unrighteous, and wicked, and profane among men, into everlasting fire; but may, in the exercise of His grace, confer immortality on the righteous, and holy, and those who have kept His commandments, and have persevered in His love, some from the beginning of their Christian course, and others from the date of their repentance, and may surround them with everlasting glory. (“Against Heresies” 1:10:10)

The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming. . . . [I]t is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, ‘Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,’ they will be damned forever (“Against Heresies” 4:28:2)

From Clement of Alexandria (195AD)
All souls are immortal, even those of the wicked. Yet, it would be better for them if they were not deathless. For they are punished with the endless vengeance of quenchless fire. Since they do not die, it is impossible for them to have an end put to their misery. (from a post-Nicene manuscript fragment)

From Tertullian (197AD)
These have further set before us the proofs He has given of His majesty in judgments by floods and fires, the rules appointed by Him for securing His favor, as well as the retribution in store for the ignoring, forsaking and keeping them, as being about at the end of all to adjudge His worshippers to everlasting life, and the wicked to the doom of fire at once without ending and without break, raising up again all the dead from the beginning, reforming and renewing them with the object of awarding either recompense. (“Apology” 18:3)

Then will the entire race of men be restored to receive its just deserts according to what it has merited in this period of good and evil, and thereafter to have these paid out in an immeasurable and unending eternity. Then there will be neither death again nor resurrection again, but we shall be always the same as we are now, without changing. The worshipers of God shall always be with God, clothed in the proper substance of eternity. But the godless and those who have not turned wholly to God will be punished in fire equally unending, and they shall have from the very nature of this fire, divine as it were, a supply of incorruptibility (“Apology” 44:12–13)

Therefore after this there is neither death nor repeated resurrections, but we shall be the same that we are now, and still unchanged–the servants of God, ever with God, clothed upon with the proper substance of eternity; but the profane, and all who are not true worshippers of God, in like manner shall be consigned to the punishment of everlasting fire–that fire which, from its very nature indeed, directly ministers to their incorruptibility. (“Apology” 48:12)

If, therefore, any one shall violently suppose that the destruction of the soul and the flesh in hell amounts to a final annihilation of the two substances, and not to their penal treatment (as if they were to be consumed, not punished), let him recollect that the fire of hell is eternal — expressly announced as an everlasting penalty; and let him admit that it is from this circumstance that this never-ending "killing" is more formidable than a merely human murder, which is only temporal. — On the Resurrection of the Flesh Chapter 35

From Hippolytus of Rome (212AD)
Standing before [Christ’s] judgment, all of them, men, angels, and demons, crying out in one voice, shall say: ‘Just is your judgment!’ And the righteousness of that cry will be apparent in the recompense made to each. To those who have done well, everlasting enjoyment shall be given; while to the lovers of evil shall be given eternal punishment. The unquenchable and unending fire awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which does not die and which does not waste the body but continually bursts forth from the body with unceasing pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no appeal of interceding friends will profit them (“Against the Greeks 3”)

From Felix Minucius (226AD)
I am not ignorant of the fact that many, in the consciousness of what they deserve, would rather hope than actually believe that there is nothing for them after death. They would prefer to be annihilated rather than be restored for punishment… Nor is there either measure nor end to these torments. That clever fire burns the limbs and restores them, wears them away and yet sustains them, just as fiery thunderbolts strike bodies but do not consume them (“Octavius” 34:12–5:3)

From Cyprian of Carthage (252 AD)
An ever-burning Gehenna and the punishment of being devoured by living flames will consume the condemned; nor will there be any way in which the tormented can ever have respite or be at an end. Souls along with their bodies will be preserved for suffering in unlimited agonies. . . . The grief at punishment will then be without the fruit of repentance; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual. Too late will they believe in eternal punishment, who would not believe in eternal life (“To Demetrian” 24)

Oh,what and how great will that day be at its coming, beloved brethren, when the Lord shall begin to count up His people, and to recognize the deservings of each one by the inspection of His divine knowledge, to send the guilty to Gehenna, and to set on fire our persecutors with the perpetual burning of a penal fire, but to pay to us the reward of our faith and devotion! (“To Thibaris” 55:10)

From Lactantius (307AD)
But, however, the sacred writings inform us in what manner the wicked are to undergo punishment. For because they have committed sins in their bodies, they will again be clothed with flesh, that they may make atonement in their bodies; and yet it will not be that flesh with which God clothed man, like this our earthly body, but indestructible, and abiding forever, that it may be able to hold out against tortures and everlasting fire…The same divine fire, therefore, with one and the same force and power, will both burn the wicked and will form them again, and will replace as much as it shall consume of their bodies, and will supply itself with eternal nourishment …Then they whose piety shall have been approved of will receive the reward of immortality; but they whose sins and crimes shall have been brought to light will not rise again, but will be hidden in the same darkness with the wicked, being destined to certain punishment. (“Divine Institutes” 7:21)

From Cyril of Jerusalem (350AD)
We shall be raised therefore, all with our bodies eternal, but not all with bodies alike: for if a man is righteous, he will receive a heavenly body, that he may be able worthily to hold converse with angels; but if a man is a sinner, he shall receive an eternal body, fitted to endure the penalties of sins, that he may burn eternally in fire, nor ever be consumed… (“Catechetical Lectures” 18:19)

The real and true life then is the Father, who through the Son in the Holy Spirit pours forth as from a fountain His heavenly gifts to all; and through His love to man, the blessings of the life eternal are promised without fail to us men also. We must not disbelieve the possibility of this, but having an eye not to our own weakness but to His power, we must believe; for with God all things are possible. And that this is possible, and that we may look for eternal life, Daniel declares, And of the many righteous shall they shine as the stars forever and ever. And Paul says, And so shall we be ever with the Lord: for the being forever with the lord implies the life eternal. But most plainly of all the Savior Himself says in the Gospel, And these shall go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into life eternal. (“Catechetical Lectures” 18:28)​

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You're quoting scriptures not understanding what they actually mean, and then you're quoting catholic documents creating even more confusion on the matter. But even so, are you aware that God has created sinners? Why has he done this? So that in them he may show his mercy and also mighty judgments. If he hadn't made sinners, then he could not have expressed his love through Jesus Christ and died for sinners. If he hadn't made sinners, he couldn't have shown his mercy and compassion. If he hadn't made sinners, he couldn't show his forgiveness. If he hadn't made sinners, he couldn't show his mighty judgments upon the earth. If he hadn't made sinners, he couldn't show his justice to execute a just judgment on the wicked. So if he has indeed made sinners the way they are, for what reason would it serve then to condemn these creatures he has made sinful to be in endless torments of fire? Its nonsensical. Their very purpose is served in their final destruction that is witnessed by those that remain alive. Although this utter destruction by fire consumes its subjects, and the resulting dead from it is endless, it is still a dreadful and tormenting way to die. And we are not even sure how long this torment will actually last for each person since "each is judged according to works". Have you ever thought of dying being burned alive?

thecolorsblend said:

That would raise the question of who the people in Heaven are as shown in Revelation. If they're asleep, as you say, they sure seem awfully busy.

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What then is the point of a resurrection if the dead are already alive? The host in heaven are angels who live in heaven, and Jesus, who was the first to be raised from the dead among those that are to receive new immortal bodies.

thecolorsblend said:

It is because they have not been bodily resurrected. Their mortal remains remain here... and will remain here until the resurrection. They're alive. In fact, I dare say they're more alive than you and I are. But they have not been bodily resurrected yet.

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Not so, because if they were indeed alive then how are all the souls of men said to be in hades? Hades is the abode of the dead where no one is conscious, hence why they are said to be "asleep". Even Jesus himself was in hades 3 days before he was raised from among those that are collected there.

thecolorsblend said:

What does Hades have to do with whether they're asleep (eg, unconscious) or not??

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When a soul is in Hades, it is not aware, hence why death is referred to as sleep. In fact, that's why God has created man in need of sleep, to foreshadow death. God could've easily made man not in need of it, he is God and creates as he pleases, but he created things in wisdom. These verses indicate that no man is aware while being in Hades,

For there is no [*3*in *4*death *1*remembering *2*you]; and in Hades, who shall make acknowledgement to you? (Psalms 6:5 [ABP])

In DEATH there is no remembering God, not even ACKNOWLEDGMENT of God. Why? Because they are NOT AWARE. Even Jesus was in Hades in this place where no one can even acknowledge God. Lets look at another verse,

[*6*not *1*For *2*the ones *3*in *4*Hades *5*shall] praise you; nor the ones dying shall bless you; nor shall [*4*hope *1*the ones *2*in *3*Hades] on your charity. (Isaiah 38:18 [ABP])

No one in Hades can praise God, nor anyone dying and going there bless God, nor anyone there hope on God's charity. Why? Because they are NOT AWARE.

All as much as [*2*should find *1*your hand] to do, [*2*as *3*is *5*power *4*in your *1*you do]; for there is no action, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom in Hades, of where you should go there. (Ecclesiastes 9:10 [ABP])

Why are there NO ACTIONS, NO KNOWLEDGE, NO WISDOM IN HADES? BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT AWARE. YOU ARE NOT ALIVE TO DO ANYTHING, OR TO EVEN THINK.

For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. (Ecclesiastes 9:5 [ESV])

Again, the DEAD IN HADES KNOW NOTHING BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT AWARE.

thecolorsblend said:

At least it was. A lot of theologians believe it is now exclusively the dwelling place of the damned as the righteous in Hades would have been taken to Heaven during the three days Our Lord was in Hades.

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Hades is not a collecting place of the damned, it is a collecting place for ALL THE DEAD. Hence why we even have this scripture as well,

Who is the man who shall live and not see death? Shall he rescue his own soul from out of the hand of Hades? PAUSE. (Psalms 89:48 [ABP])

ALL MEN GO TO HADES AT DEATH. And the dead in Christ are also STILL BEING COLLECTED IN HADES UNTIL THE FIRST RESURRECTION OF HIS SECOND COMING,

For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. (1 Thessalonians 4:16 [NIV])

Notice how the scripture says THE DEAD IN CHRIST, SO EVEN THEY ARE ALSO COLLECTED THERE WITH GOES IN ACCORDANCE WILL ALL THE DEAD BEING COLLECTED THERE. Here we also have this verse,

But there is an order to this resurrection: Christ was raised as the first of the harvest; then all who belong to Christ will be raised when he comes back. (1 Corinthians 15:23 [NIV])

Jesus Christ was the FIRST TO BE RESURRECTED from Hades, and then those that are asleep at his second coming are RESURRECTED from Hades NEXT. We also have these verses,

But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. (1 Thessalonians 4:13 [ESV])

OUR HOPE OF LIFE AGAIN IS THE RESURRECTION. Paul here is referring to those that had died among the church who had "fallen asleep", meaning going to HADES.

thecolorsblend said:

I'm not sure what that has to do with anything.

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Even Jesus himself being in Hades GOES TO SHOW THAT ALL MEN WHO DIE GO TO HADES. Hades has NOT CEASED FROM EXISTING NOR HAS THE COLLECTING OF SOULS THERE STOPPED BECAUSE THE GREAT RESURRECTIONS HAVE NOT HAPPENED YET. Hades will finally be destroyed in the final judgment of fire because death will be no more, so the collecting of the souls of the dead will no longer be necessary.

Der Alter said:

I might suggest that you refrain from telling me what I think, understand, know, believe, etc. I read both Biblical languages and I have a better understanding of scripture than many people at this forum. For example, I was just telling a group this morning that reading some verses in English we lose part of the full meaning. Luke 16 says the beggar was laid at the rich man's gate. The Greek word translated as "laid" actually means thrown. As one Greek scholar, A.T. Robertson, says "He had been flung there and was still there, “as if contemptuous roughness is implied.”

I note the usual uninformed, unsupported anti-Catholic rhetoric. There was no "Catholic" church led by a Pope in Rome until 1075. Two of the ECF I quoted were pupils of the disciple John, Ignatius and Polycarp. And one, Irenaeus, was a pupil of Polycarp.



No I am not aware of any of this because it is not true. God is love not a psychopath who creates beings for the sole purpose is to sin so that God may punish them

Jas 1:12-13
(12) Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
(13) Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

1Co_10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
​

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Even Paul affirms what I am saying,

[22] And if God wanting to demonstrate the wrath, and to make known his might, he bore with much leniency vessels of wrath being readied for destruction; [23] and that he should make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he prepared beforehand for glory, [24] whom also he called us not only from out of Jews, but also from out of the nations,
(Romans 9:22-24 [ABP])

The vessels of wrath in this verse are referring to all sinners. This is why the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, because ALL THINGS ARE ORDAINED FROM HIM.

Consider what God has done: Who can straighten what he has made crooked? (Ecclesiastes 7:3 [NIV])

And also we have,

The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. (Proverbs 16:4 [KJV])

You lack understanding concerning the judgment of the fire of gehenna because you don't even understand God's complete power over all that he has created. It doesn't matter how many many languages you speak, if you don't understand these matters you also will not understand other matters.

Der Alter said:

In addition to Luke 16:19-32 there are 2 passages in the OT which depict the dead in sheol moving, speaking, etc.

In Isaiah 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, and according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, gone! But God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.

Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)
9) Hell [שאול] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [שאול] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
[ . . . ]
22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.​

In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babble-on.
Some will try to argue that this passage is figurative because fir trees don’t literally rejoice, vs. 8. They will try to argue that the passage must be figurative since God told Israel “take up this proverb against the king of Babylon.” vs. 4. The occurrence of one figurative expression in a passage does not prove that anything else in the passage is figurative. The Hebrew word משׁל/mashal translated “proverb” does not necessarily mean something is fictional. For example Israel did not become fictional when God made them a mashal/proverb in 2 Chron 7:20, Ps 44:14, and Jer 24:9.

Here is another passage where God himself is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.

Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [שאול] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Eze 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD. ​

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None of these scriptures prove your point of view on Hell, otherwise called Gehenna. First of all these scriptures are referring to "Hades", otherwise known as "Sheol" in the Hebrew language. Don't believe me? Take a glimpse at a Hebrew interlinear concerning your Ezekiel passage,

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/ezekiel/32-21.htm
http://biblehub.com/hebrew/sheol_7585.htm

This passage in Ezekiel is FIGURATIVE. You can't take it literally. Whats one evidence that it is figurative? Look a couple verses further in your same Ezekiel passage,

A bed is made for her among the slain, with all her hordes around her grave. All of them are uncircumcised, killed by the sword. Because their terror had spread in the land of the living, they bear their shame with those who go down to the pit; they are laid among the slain. (Ezekiel 32:25 [NIV])

Are there beds in Hades? Beds and fire? No. Lets look at your Isaiah passage, which is again, TALKING ABOUT HADES, OR SHEOL,

Hades from below was embittered meeting with you; [*7*were risen up together *8*against you *1*all *2*the *3*giants *4*ruling *5*the *6*earth], the ones rising from their thrones, all the kings of the nations. (Isaiah 14:9 [ABP])

Does a place HAVE FEELINGS? Lets look at another translation,

Sheol from beneath is excited over you to meet you when you come; It arouses for you the spirits of the dead, all the leaders of the earth; It raises all the kings of the nations from their thrones. (Isaiah 14:9 [NASB])

Again, this is FIGURATIVE LANGUAGE. Lets even look at the previous verse,

Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us. (Isaiah 14:8 [KJV])

DO TREES TALK? NO. THIS IS FIGURATIVE LANGUAGE. This is exactly what happens with MOST PEOPLE NOT UNDERSTANDING SCRIPTURE, THEY GRAB FIGURATIVE SPEECHES AND CREATE DOCTRINE FROM IT. ITS EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENS WITH THE PARABLE OF THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS. COMPLETE IGNORANCE. I highly advise that you humble yourself if you wish to learn. While you remain wise in your own eye you will learn NOTHING.

Going further, HADES, ALSO KNOWN AS SHEOL is NOT GEHENNA. Because even in Revelation we see that HADES IS DESTROYED IN GEHENNA. TWO SEPARATE THINGS. Also we know that the Lord was himself in Hades, as this prophecy concerning him indicates,

For you shall not abandon my soul in Hades, nor shall you give your sacred one to see corruption. (Psalms 16:10 [ABP])

The Lord slept in Hades for 3 days, and then was raised from the dead.

Der Alter said:

The usual out-of-context quotes of bits and pieces from Ecclesiastes 9. First let us note that this same author did not know what happens to a man's spirit when he dies.

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Oh yea? Then why does he then say......

and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it. (Ecclesiastes 12:7)

Der Alter said:

The prophet Isaiah speaking to God from his human point of view. Not words inspired by God, "Thus saith the Lord!" Does either David or Isaiah have to tell God the condition of the dead?

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ISAIAH SPEAKING TO GOD FROM A HUMAN POINT OF VIEW? SERIOUSLY? IF THATS TRUE THEN WHY BELIEVE ANYTHING HE WROTE. THIS IS PROBABLY ONE OF THE MOST RIDICULOUS LOGICS IVE EVER HEARD TO TRY TO PROVE A SCRIPTURAL TRUTH.

Der Alter said:

A prayer spoken by David, a man, to God from David's human point of view. Not words inspired by God, "Thus saith the Lord!"

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NOT WORDS INSPIRED BY GOD???????? WOW. LETS JUST CALL WHATEVER SCRIPTURES THAT DON'T FIT WITH OUR DOCTRINE AS NON-INSPIRED.

I don't even know why I am responding to you! You don't even believe the scriptures are truth!

BelieveTheWord said:

There was nothing unjust about Sodom and Gomorrah. It was actually merciful to quickly destroy them, rather than torture them. "Visiting" doesn't mean punishing, and it says "to them that hate me. The rest of Scripture makes it clear that people can always repent and be blessed. The Temple isn't a justice issue, it is a blessing.



Matthew 10:28

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The only justice I know is derived from this,

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, (Romans 3:23)

And because of that all men deserve death. The very fact that that sinners are breathing this moment shows the mercy and leniency of God. So whatever punishments God does bring, whenever he does bring them, they are just, because all deserve death. And although his judgments are severe and dreadful, even to cause the heavens and the earth to shake as it has been prophesied will happen, they are still short and quick, and his lovingkindness abounds more.

The LORD is compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, abounding in love. (Psalm 103:8)

Der Alter said:

This looks like a schoolyard game. “My scripture trumps your scripture! Does too! Nuh Huh!” It is clear that the author of Eccleiastes, in chapter 3, did not know what happened to a man’s spirit when he dies. And you ignored the rest of my discussion about Eccl 9. Your proof text passage is surrounded by verses which refer to events “under the sun” But you want one verse in the middle to be about man’s eternal fate. Context, context, context.



Is it your understanding that when men pour out their souls, praying to God, that God inspires the very words that they speak to Him? When you pray are you just repeating words that God gave to you? I can’t see God saying to David or Isaiah, “I want you to pray to me and here are the exact words I want you to say.” Were they just robots, like a “Chatty Kathy” doll repeating the words back that someone says to them?



One should not presume to tell me what I do and don’t believe just because I don’t subscribe to JW doctrine.

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Everything a man having the holy spirit says is true, because it comes from God, not the person speaking. No man having the holy spirit speaks of himself. So if a man having the holy spirit prays to God, all that he is saying is true. These very scriptures you are trying to discard that oppose your view are also inspired by God. Or will a man of God pray false things? There is true power in having the holy spirit, how do you think these things are said concerning the people having the holy spirit?

But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. (John 14:26)

No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. (1 John 3:9)

Therefore, these scriptures, spoken by men that had the spirit of God, are true. And even now, the holy spirit is dispensed in a different way then they way they received it, as it now imparts true righteousness and inner perfection because of the spilling of the blood of Jesus Christ, which agrees with the 1 John 3:9 verse.