Rev. 20:4, No Mention of Physical Earthly Reign

jerry kelso said:

John 5:27-29; context of the resurrections of those who chose life in Christ and those who have done evil. These in Revelation 20:4-6 are a literal 1000 years apart.
Matthew 25: context of the Judgement of the nations and how they treated Israel and some will be goats and others sheep.
There is no contradiction of what I said according to the scripture and what Jesus said. If you have any more questions specifically feel free to ask. Jerry kelso

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Jerry,

I want Pastor John Otis to talk with you first...


Great Errors in Dispensational Eschatology
Pastor John Otis

parousia70 said:

Oh... because i asked you "why do you reject Jesus words" and you replied "Common sense"



The fact of the Judgement coming of Christ in 70 AD, as He foretold in Matt 21, is well attested by the Church, the Body of Christ throughout it's History... the recent advent of dispensational futurism is actually the minority view.



That's the Point.
Throughout scripture, that act of God in heaven directing temporal judgement events on earth is referred to by the Prophets as God "coming on the clouds". We see this applied to Christ quite clearly in Revlation 14:14, where Christ is depicted sitting on a cloud in Heaven directing judgment events on the earth.

Revelation 14:14 is the same cloud coming of Christ found in Revelation 1:7, proving St John is not describing Christ riding atop cumulus clouds in earth's atmosphere, rather he is depicting Christ as equal with the father God, for it is only God who rides clouds in Judgment, enthroned in Heaven, directing events on earth as you rightly professed.

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Of course His judgment came: but HE did not. Rev. 19 shows us His coming. Why not just believe what John wrote instead of imagining a different coming?

ewq1938 said:

Even if it's 60 min the resurrections do not happen at the same exact time. One happens first but Rev 20 says there is a time gap of a thousand years so the hour in that verse is not 60 min but an unknown period of time just as the thousand years is.






The Greek word can mean a much longer period:


G5610
ὥρα
hōra
Thayer Definition:
1) a certain definite time or season fixed by natural law and returning with the revolving year
1a) of the seasons of the year, spring, summer, autumn, winter
2) the daytime (bounded by the rising and setting of the sun), a day
3) a twelfth part of the day-time, an hour, (the twelve hours of the day are reckoned from the rising to the setting of the sun)
4) any definite time, point of time, moment

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You are using "Circular Reasoning". You say there must be 1,000 years between the resurrections, because that is the way you interpret Rev. chapter 20. And therefore, you twist all of the plain text passages that say otherwise, to make it so.


G5507


χίλιοι

chilioi

khil'-ee-oy

Plural of uncertain affinity; a thousand: - thousand.


Psa_50:10 For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills.

There are an uncertain number of hills.

To John the exact length of the time the souls would reign with Christ in heaven was a large, but uncertain number of years.

God does not want us to know the exact time of Christ's Second Coming.


Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

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iamlamad said:

Of course His judgment came: but HE did not.

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40 “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?”

41 They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.”

ewq1938 said:

No. In the eternity there is no death or births.

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Then what NHNE was Isaiah prophesying about?

Only one tree does that, and the leaves are for healing but doesn't explain what is meant.

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Who there needs healing in your view?

That doesn't mean those things are literally outside the walls. It means they are not part of the city and simply because they don't exist.

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14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

They exist alright, otherwise they would not be said to be outside the city.

BABerean2 said:

Jerry,

I want Pastor John Otis to talk with you first...


Great Errors in Dispensational Eschatology
Pastor John Otis

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baberean2,

1. I believe in dispensations as a stewardship of how God dealt with men in different ages. Even covenant theologians believe this. However, I do not believe much of what many dispensation teachers have said or have taught. My Father said not to even believe everything he said without being like the bereans to see if what they say is true.
I have Larkin and Dake and others but do not believe every jot and tittle they print. I believe they have much truth but were not completely perfect about everything. We all have to study to show ourselves approve of God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed. I have studied from a preacher who went to Hebrew seminary and learned much from a rabbi who got saved in his ministry. So I believe certain things that dispensationalists because they didn't have proper jewish understanding.

2. I appreciate the video and it is nothing I have not heard before and is why that I don't believe some of those things. The preacher was right about a few conclusions from their teachings and other things he was speculating and drawing wrong conclusions.

3. The KoH and the KoG are different concerning the distinct picture of the earthly reign within the universal KoG. The similarities are because the KoH which is the earthly sphere is a part of the universal KoG. This earth is out of harmony with the universal KoG because of sin. This cannot be denied.

4. KoH- earthly sphere; Daniel 7:27 is the kingdom under the heavens. Baselia is greek for the Kingdom from the heavens which is the heavenly rule spiritually, which in Jesus day was the KoG. Matthew 6:33: Seek ye first the KoG and his righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you. We are never told to seek the KoH. Luke 17:20; the KoG comes without observation.
In a nutshell; KoH physical is the earthly sphere; KoH spiritually are the spiritual things contained in the physical kingdom.

5. KoG physical is the universe which includes all of God's creation including the earth. KoG spiritual was believing by faith and being saved by grace. All men in every age were saved by grace and believing by faith because it took the grace of God to grant unmerited favor to undeserving men. Their faith was in the revelation they were given which was gradual. The antediluvians weren't dumb but they were led more by conscience and did not have a written law but whatever they did according to their conscience that was contained in the written law later (law of Moses) was a law unto themselves. Moses law was great and was written on stones and they still had conscience and they had types and shadows of what was to come.

6. Jesus ministry is very misunderstood about the KoH and the KoG ministry to the jews only. When I was a child I thought the church was in the gospels just as much as the jews. This is where the true jewish history goes out the door and gets gentile thinking.
Jesus did propose the KoH and there was no plan b. This is a false conclusion. There is no scripture that says the jews would accept Messiah. At the same time he had to propose the Kingdom to them. Would the Kingdom be set up if they had accepted? It is speculation and either way Christ would have had to die first. But the prophecies were fulfilled like they were given.

7. The gospel of the kingdom was under the Mosaic law in Jesus ministry. They physical kingdom was different than for the church for they have different covenant promises than the church concerning the kingdom which is at the head of the nations. The church will have rulership positions for we are being trained now in 2 Timothy 2:12. The Jews have to be purified in order to take their place in the KoH because it is conditioned by obedience. Zechariah 13:9 and Romans 11:25-32.

8. The new covenant was complete at Calvary and the resurrection. This means that in the future tribulation Israel will be the generation that understands the suffering Savior and then Christ will come back as the conquering King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Isaiah 53:1-7; Revelation 19:11-15.

9. Man, jew or gentile cannot coerce God's plan by freewill choice. The postponement doesn't do this and it is the love of God that sends persecution and suffering and tribulation for that generation to believe in him. Daniel 9:24-27; 12:1; Zechariah 13:9; Revelation 16:1-2; 20:4-6. Even christians today are being trained for ruling the kingdom by suffering. 2 Timothy 2:12. God allows the church to learn obedience and will not make hear obey for it must be out of true love that we serve him. So man is not coercing by freewill choice of freewill agents.
They will understand the new covenant this time for it is already in effect and has been since Calvary. Revelation 1:7. Because the nation will obey and fulfill the covenant accordingly to the Abrahamic and the Davidic Covenants shows that the new covenant has not been fulfilled in the nation and it has to because God will not rule with them unless they have a holy heart.

10. The millennial government will be political and a spiritual theocracy for the Son of God will rule with a rod of Iron along with the saints. Psalm 2:9; Revelation 2:27. Even Paul related this in the Corinthian letter about saints in the church ruling in the kingdom and not just Israel.

11. OT Prophets knew many things but they didn't know everything in its complete sense. They definitely understood the kingdom but the church age they didn't understand fully. Ephesians 3:2-6.

I will now address some of the scriptures he gave.
a). Matthew 4:17; Mark 1:15; Matthew 11:11-13; Luke 16:16. John the Baptist and Jesus spoke of the KoH and the KoG. Matthew only uses the term KoH and Mark, Luke and John use the Kingdom of God. This is because the KoG physically is the earthly sphere of the universal KoG. The spiritual aspect is the KoG for the most part. The KoH spiritual is not used as a means to seek but the KoG was. Though the physical kingdom and the spiritual realities of the KoG universal it is important to understand the distinctions to understand the earthly calling of Israel and the churches which is both earthly and heavenly.

12. The law of Moses was given because of transgressions and would only be until the seed should come. Dispensationalists who take the latter literal believe Jesus taught the new covenant in his earthly ministry.
Though the law pointed to the sacrifice they didn't fully understand the message of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ in its totality. Jesus didn't teach it in the same sense as we have been taught after the cross. They were to believe in the Messiah of whom John baptized to manifest him to Israel. If they believed in Messiah to forgive them of their sins they would be born again. Today we have to believe in the death, burial and resurrection in his finished work. Even Peter didn't know what the death, burial, and resurrection towards the end of Jesus ministry. Read Matthew 16:22-23 and John 6:53-67. This was after Jesus rejection by Israel. Matthew 23:37-39. This rejection was the KoH and the KoG message. These kingdoms were lost in the garden of Eden for they lost the physical rule and the spiritual rule in their heart. The spiritual rule of the KoG was restored at Calvary and the KoH will be restored after the time of the gentiles comes to an end and Christ establishes the kingdom. The church or the jews will not bring in the kingdom just because the Kingdom gospel will be preached to the whole world. Matthew 24:14. The millennial kingdom is a work of God just like his finished work at Calvary. The Kingdom theology of many are wrong as wrong can be.

13. The kingdom age will be to put down sin and rebellion even though the world will be at peace as in Isaiah 2:1-4. 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 proves the reason for the Kingdom reign so the son can give back to the Father so God will be all in all.
The KoH (earthly reign) is eternal according to Daniel 7:27. God being all in all is about the earth coming back into harmony with the physical KoG. This is why it is important to understand the distinction of the earthly sphere within the universal KoG. It is not wrong to use the term the KoG as the same as the KoH in its overall sense. But it is important to understand the distinction of the terms KoH and the KoG to understand the phrase God all in all and the relation of the KoH to the KoG.

14. Jesus was more interested in the KoG in their hearts for they were backslidden in the covenant of law than the KoH because he knew they couldn't receive the physical kingdom unless they had the KoG in their hearts for it is conditioned by obedience. (1 Chronicles 27:7-9; Romans 11:25-32). They also were blinded (Matthew 13:13-15). They stumbled at the cornerstone, etc.

15. Let me say this; the Holy Spirit will be in the kingdom for the signs were shown of what will happen on the Day of Pentecost and Peter connected it with the restitution of all things. It wasn't fulfilled then but will be in the future tribulations. As I said before the new covenant will be understood by the jews in the tribulation for they will look on him whom they pierced. The kingdom gospel will be much about God coming back to overthrow the kingdoms of the world (Revelation 11:15) but, it will also be about the KoG in their hearts in the spiritual aspect. The reason most dispensationalists missed it is because Hebrews 8:7-13 is just like Jeremiah 31:31-32 which says nothing about believing the death, burial, and resurrection.
The truth is that the first time it was true because they didn't understand that message in it's totality before the cross vs, after the cross. The disciples had a hard enough time trying to digest Jesus resurrection and this is why he had to espouse the law and the prophets and what the prophecies about his ministry etc. The second time they will understand because the new covenant has been in effect for the world and then will be for the nation to receive and fulfill their covenants promises and blessings.

I am sorry this is so long and I am sorry that there are many things about dispensationalists that are not right and at the same time for many misguided and wrong conclusions from others because of it. I hope you can see and understand that I do not believe everything that dispensationalists teach even though it is very helpful in many ways including history, present and future and how great our covenant is by being built on better promises and why God dealt with men by gradual revelation.
Feel free to offer your questions and objections if any and study it out as a good berean should to believe the truth that will set you free. It takes a good while to understand some's views sometimes especially if it is not what one is anticipating or if one is trying to understand another's views by using their own hermeneutics. God Bless! Jerry kelso

In Answer to all those to don't believe a thousand means a thousand:
New Testament use of "thousand."

Matthew 14:21
And they that had eaten were about five thousand men, beside women and children.
In your theory, we really don't know how many men. Maybe only a lot. Not so much of a miracle at all.
Matthew 15:38
And they that did eat were four thousand men, beside women and children.
In your theory, we really don't know how many men. Maybe only a lot. Not so much of a miracle at all.
Matthew 16:9
Do ye not yet understand, neither remember the five loaves of the five thousand, and how many baskets ye took up?
In your theory, we really don't know how many men. Maybe only a lot. Not so much of a miracle at all.
Matthew 16:10
Neither the seven loaves of the four thousand, and how many baskets ye took up?
In your theory, we really don't know how many men. Maybe only a lot. Not so much of a miracle at all.
Matthew 18:24
And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
In your theory, we really don't know how many talents. Just some unknown number.
Mark 5:13
And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand and were choked in the sea.
In your theory, we really don't know how many pigs. Maybe only a lot.
Mark 6:44
And they that did eat of the loaves were about five thousand men.
In your theory, we really don't know how many men. Maybe only a lot. Not so much of a miracle at all.
Mark 8:9
And they that had eaten were about four thousand: and he sent them away.
In your theory, we really don't know how many men. Maybe only a lot. Not so much of a miracle at all.
Mark 8:19
When I brake the five loaves among five thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? They say unto him, Twelve.
In your theory, we really don't know how many men. Maybe only a lot. Not so much of a miracle at all.
Mark 8:20
And when the seven among four thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? And they said, Seven.
In your theory, we really don't know how many men. Maybe only a lot. Not so much of a miracle at all.
Luke 9:14
For they were about five thousand men. And he said to his disciples, Make them sit down by fifties in a company.
In your theory, we really don't know how many men. Maybe only a lot. Not so much of a miracle at all.
Luke 14:31
Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?
In your theory, we really don't know how many men. Maybe only a lot. Would you go into battle without knowing what a thousand even meant?
John 6:10
And Jesus said, Make the men sit down. Now there was much grass in the place. So the men sat down, in number about five thousand.
In your theory, we really don't know how many men. Maybe only a lot. Not so much of a miracle at all.
Acts 2:41
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
In your theory, we really don't know how many souls were saved.
Acts 4:4
Howbeit many of them which heard the word believed; and the number of the men was about five thousand.
In your theory, we really don't know how many souls were saved.
Acts 19:19
Many of them also which used curious arts brought their books together, and burned them before all men: and they counted the price of them, and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver.
In your theory, we really don't know how much those books were worth.
Acts 21:20
And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:
In your theory, we really don't know how many souls believed.
Acts 21:38
Art not thou that Egyptian, which before these days madest an uproar, and leddest out into the wilderness four thousand men that were murderers?
In your theory, we really don't know how many men that were murderers.
Romans 11:4
But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
In your theory, we really don't know how many men God reserved for Himself.
For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
We really don't know how many instructors, if we thought like you do.
1 Corinthians 10:8
Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
In your theory, we really don't know how many fell that day.
1 Corinthians 14:19
Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
In your theory, how many words?
2 Peter 3:8
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
In your theory, a thousand does not mean a thousand. God was just wasting words here.
Jude 1:14
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
In your theory, maybe not so many.
Revelation 5:11
And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
Maybe there are not as many angels as we have believed.
Revelation 7:4
And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
I guess, if we thought like you, we have no idea how many God will seal. We cannot trust what He has caused to be written.
Revelation 7:5
Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
I guess, if we thought like you, we have no idea how many God will seal. We cannot trust what He has caused to be written.
Revelation 7:6
Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
I guess, if we thought like you, we have no idea how many God will seal. We cannot trust what He has caused to be written.
Revelation 7:7
Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
I guess, if we thought like you, we have no idea how many God will seal. We cannot trust what He has caused to be written.
Revelation 7:8
Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
I guess, if we thought like you, we have no idea how many God will seal. We cannot trust what He has caused to be written.
Revelation 9:16
And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.
I guess, if we thought like you, we have no idea how many horsemen.
Revelation 11:3
And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
I guess, if we thought like you, we have no idea how long a half week will be. This number is meaningless.
Revelation 11:13
And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
I guess, if we thought like you, we have no idea how many were really killed. Maybe God really did not know how many.
Revelation 12:6
And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
I guess, if we thought like you, we have no idea how many days. You'll just have to count.
Revelation 14:1
And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
I guess, if we thought like you, we have no idea if this number is related to the other number. It's just a lot of people...God is not sure how many.
Revelation 14:3
And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
I guess, if we thought like you, we have no idea if this number is related to the other number. It's just a lot of people...God is not sure how many.
Revelation 14:20
And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
I guess, if we thought like you, we have no idea how far.
Revelation 20:2
And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
We have no idea how long. God is not sure, so we are not sure.
Revelation 20:3
And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
It's just a season, not even God knows.
Revelation 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
It's just a season, not even God knows. Maybe He'll let BA keep count.
Revelation 20:5
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
It's just a season, not even God knows how long it will be.
Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
It's just a season, not even God knows how long it will be.
Revelation 20:7
And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
It's just a season, not even God knows how long it will be.
Revelation 21:16
And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
We really don't know how big this city is: not even God knows. So he used a number that does not really mean a number. I guess the Greeks could not count much past a hundred.

Preposterous! Ridiculous! Foolish! Goofy! Laughable! Ludicrous! Silly!

I will go with what God says, and not try to use human reasoning. I think God can count.

BABerean2 said:

The first ten words of the statement above, do not agree with the last phrase of the statement above.

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If my home is in heaven with God I can still enjoy visiting the earth which is part of my eternal inheritance.

I can enjoy visiting the state of Colorado now even if I'm living in another state.

ewq1938 said:

Yes he does. If all the dead rise at the same time then the dead in Christ are not the first to rise are they? Rev 20 also proves the dead in Christ rise first because they do a thousand years before the rest of the dead rise. That makes both passages in perfect harmony.

Yet Christ does not say both groups rise at the same time. He simply says they will rise that's why the other passages are important to understand because they inform us there is a group that rises first and much later the other group shall.

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That simply proves Jesus was not the first one to resurrected from the dead. That also ignores the context of Rev 20 which talks about two entirely different groups of people. If you don't stick to context then it's impossible to understand any part of scripture.




Wrong. There are two mass bodily resurrections left. One when he returns, then the rest a thousand years later and how long that period is is not important. Nope.

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I have nothing more to add to this topic.

ebedmelech said:

Does not New Jerusalem come DOWN to earth from heaven as said in Revelation 21:1-2?

Another point...the earth is made NEW by the declaration of Jesus...as in Revelation 21:5.

In Romans 8:18-25 Paul teaches that earth will be redeemed! Therefore we *should* know when Jesus says "in my Father'said house are many mansions" that is not to be taken literal. Many may take that literal...but it's not.

Realize God and Christ are dwelling among all after earth is redeemed...Revelation 21:22-27

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You may be correct. But, then what will heaven be used for?

jerry kelso said:

jan001,
I have had some internet problems so sorry for the delay.

The 1000 years is literal and has nothing to do with being now.

The 1000 years is literal because it is associated with the future tribulation saints who don't take the mark. Revelation 16 and Revelation 20 and not the church of today.

The church is not ruling physically in the KoH reign because we are being trained for the kingdom rulership positions now. 2 Timothy 2:12.
The church will not be at the head of the nations where the law will come out of Zion because we are not physical Israel Isaiah 2:2-4.

God rules in the hearts of saints today but spiritual warfare is learning to fill the rulership positions in the future.
If one believes they are in the millennial kingdom they rob Israel of their callings and election. Read Romans 11-25-32.
If we were in the physical KoH the animal kingdom would not harm anything as Isaiah said.
If we were in the physical KoH the laws of the nature would be under our control and we could say to the mountain and it would literally move. Jesus mentioned this while rebuking the disciples for not having faith as a mustard seed.
The church rulership in the KoH is different than today in the church age because it is spiritual and physical over the earth and today that is not true.

The 1000 years in Revelation 20 is after the beast and the false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire.

The battle of Armageddon is in Revelation 16 and is on the kingdom beast worshippers and Satan is in the pit for 1000 years so he won't be able to deceive the nations until the 1000 years is over. The last rebellion is when Satan is loosed from the pit after the 1000 years.
Satan is not bound now or in the coming tribulation and will not be until Christ comes back at the battle of Armageddon and the kingdom begins. Christ will rule with a rod of iron with his saints (Psalm 2:9 and Revelation 2:27).
Christ has to take over physically the nations of earth and this has not happened and will not until at the end of the tribulation (Revelation 11:15).

The 2 resurrections are 1000 years apart; the beast and the false prophet killed in the battle of Armageddon and Satan thrown in the lake of fire after the 1000 years. You want to make Armageddon and the last revolt the same and this is not true because Satan is still deceiving at the battle of Armageddon in the tribulation so their is no period of him being bound unless it is after Armageddon. This is why Gog and Magog cannot be the same timing as Armageddon. Because this is true Christ can set up the kingdom and earthly people can obey the civil law and not be a saved person and be deceived. Also, Christ and his saints will be coming out of heaven and he will destroy with the brightness of his coming (Revelation 19 and 2 Thessalonians 2) Gog and Magog God destroys with fire out of heaven.

The bottom line is that you have no scriptural proof to make the 1000 years non-literal only as in the Lord's view of time.
You also have no proof that the church is ruling today physically. The church today is not associated with the specific 1000 year reign according to the tribulation saints who don't take the mark. The church is not physical Israel and do not have the specific covenant and callings and election as they do. Paul tells us this in Revelation 11:25-32.
For those who believe Israel's calling is over as the head of the nations and the law going forth out of Zion do not believe the scripture and they are replacement theology believers which is not scriptural.
The 1000 years is associated with the restitution of all things which is associated with the true physical KoH reign which Peter and the disciples asked the Lord about before he was ascended and when he saw different signs that would be the same as in the end of times.
This shows that Israel will be the focus of Jacob's trouble which Daniel speaks of in Daniel 12:1 and not the church.
The whole essence of the church ruling now in the kingdom is not scriptural and not in context with Revelation 20. Replacement theology borders on anti-semitic towards the jews because it says the church has taken it's place. Jerry Kelso

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I still believe that the a thousand years is the Church age, the time period between Jesus' first appearing on earth 2000 years ago and His second appearing which will occur at the end of time.

Do you believe Jesus Christ will physically ride a white horse and that He will lead physical battles on earth? I do not.

That is the difference between your interpretations of the Bible and my own. I believe that Jesus Christ fights battles with His Words/Commands.

The Remnant Jews will be joining the Church. The Church is the Bride of Christ. The Church is the household of God. The Church is the holy city, New Jerusalem. The Church is Mount Zion.


1 Timothy 3:15
but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. nkjv

Hebrews 12:22-23
But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel. nkjv

jerry kelso said:

I am sorry this is so long and I am sorry that there are many things about dispensationalists that are not right and at the same time for many misguided and wrong conclusions from others because of it. I hope you can see and understand that I do not believe everything that dispensationalists teach even though it is very helpful in many ways including history, present and future and how great our covenant is by being built on better promises and why God dealt with men by gradual revelation.
Feel free to offer your questions and objections if any and study it out as a good berean should to believe the truth that will set you free. It takes a good while to understand some's views sometimes especially if it is not what one is anticipating or if one is trying to understand another's views by using their own hermeneutics. God Bless! Jerry kelso

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Jerry,

Although we may not agree on all things, I do appreciate you taking the time to watch the video of pastor Otis and not condemning me for having a different viewpoint.
It shows you are looking for the truth.
This forum would be a better place, if we could all do the same.

Respectfully yours in-Christ,

.

Jan001 said:

I still believe that the a thousand years is the Church age, the time period between Jesus' first appearing on earth 2000 years ago and His second appearing which will occur at the end of time.

Do you believe Jesus Christ will physically ride a white horse and that He will lead physical battles on earth? I do not.

That is the difference between your interpretations of the Bible and my own. I believe that Jesus Christ fights battles with His Words/Commands.

The Remnant Jews will be joining the Church. The Church is the Bride of Christ. The Church is the household of God. The Church is the holy city, New Jerusalem. The Church is Mount Zion.

Revelation 21:1-3
Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. nkjv​

1 Timothy 3:15
but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. nkjv

Hebrews 12:22-23
But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel. nkjv

​

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jan001,

1. God's timing of 1000 years is not denied because 2 Peter 3:8 shows this.
The 1000 years is in this context of Peter's concerning the Lord as willing that none should perish but all come to eternal life. This goes along with John 3:16.
It was also connected with the state of the heavens and the earth now which are being reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. This goes with Hebrews 12:27-29.
Revelation 20 has nothing to do with the church now reigning for it is specific to the reigning in the kingdom and Satan being bound in the bottomless pit. If you think he is not deceiving now or in the tribulation then you ignore 1 Peter 5:8 and 1 Thessalonians 2:9-12.

2. The church today lives in the location of the KoH but is not physically reigning on earth as can be seen in 1 Corinthians 6 and the jewish nation is not physically reigning as the head of the nations.
You say the 1000 years timing is how God views time which could be any length when it comes to one day. Yet, you ignore the text altogether and use your logic to prove it which you really can't.

3. I have no problem believing Christ will fight on a horse because he has chariots of fire of which was physical that Elijah went up in. Either way you are still not in context and him coming on a horse does not violate the context for he really comes out of heaven.

4. There is no scripture that says the remnant jews will be a part of the church. The old testament saints and all the way up to the tribulation saints will be for they will be in Christ.

5. The church being the bride was an illusion of how Paul was to present the church as a chastening virgin to one husband. 2 Corinthians 11:2. The context was to the Corinthian church only of which he was the apostle who was to take care of his flock. He was afraid that many would fall prey to the enemy and be corrupted from the simplicity of Christ which was why they were being carnal. This had nothing to do with presenting the whole church of all the ages as the bride of Christ.
On the contrary, it is Christ who presents the spotless bride unblameable in holiness before God at the coming our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints. 1 Thessalonians 3:13.

6. Paul said Christ was the one who abolished the law of commandments or the Mosaic law sacrificial ordinances at Calvary to make twain one new man, so making peace. and that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross having slain the enmity thereby. The jew and the gentile are one new man as the church right now.

7. The nation of Israel is the divorced wife of Christ for they have not come back into covenant. This was shown in the prophet Hosea having to marry a harlot. Hosea 1:2. They will not come back into covenant until the time of the gentiles are finished and then will they be made a nation born in one day. Isaiah 66:6-8.

8. There is no scripture that says in context that the remnant jew will be a part of the church or that the church is Mount Zion. Hebrews 12:22-23, Mt Sion is the heavenly Jerusalem and in this context is different that Mt. Zion of the earthly Jerusalem which is a shadow of the heavenly. The church is the household of faith and it will be a part of the Holy City, but so will the old testament saints and the tribulation saints for all will be in Christ. The Holy City, the new Jerusalem will be the bride of Christ. Revelation 21:9. The marriage of the lamb is in Revelation 19:7-8 and the marriage supper of the Lamb is right after this in preparation for the battle of Armageddon.

9. The remnant of the jews and the nation preserved in the wilderness in Revelation 12 will be united as the two sticks of Ezekiel 36 and 37 which is literal Israel and Judah. The jewish remnant will be as a result of fleeing from the wilderness because of Satan's antichrist troops scattering them in Revelation 12:15-17. This is not the church remnant and Zechariah has 2/3 cut off and 1/3 saved of jews according to the purging of the jewish nation in order to repent. There is no scripture that says the church fills this spot of Israel in the tribulation.

10. Believe what you want but the 1000 years has nothing to do with the church reigning now or Revelation 20 which concerns the tribulation. It also has nothing to do with the timing of the 1st and 2nd comings time period. There is no scripture for that and does not agree with the context on this subject. You can use this as an illustration of God's timing compared to ours but you cannot leave out the literal context of Revelation 20. The bride of Christ is much misunderstood because of not understanding the context in its proper perspective.

11. Either a person believes the context or their traditions. The context is truth. The confusion between the church and the church age and the covenants of the nation of Israel promotes many false teachings and wrong way conclusions. Jerry kelso

BABerean2 said:

Jerry,

Although we may not agree on all things, I do appreciate you taking the time to watch the video of pastor Otis and not condemning me for having a different viewpoint.
It shows you are looking for the truth.
This forum would be a better place, if we could all do the same.

Respectfully yours in-Christ,

.

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baberean2,

1. We all have to do our best to rightly divide the word. I believe in truth and I believe in the context of scriptures and studying them and not taking somebody's other words of their interpretation without finding out what the word says.

2. For me, though I speak strongly of the context of the scriptures and their interpretations I am always listening to other interpretations because I may learn something new or else my understanding will be more solidified. This is why I go to great lengths to address major points of both sides of an issue. This is what exegesis is all about.

3. Many people can elaborate on their view but not properly rebut the other view. This doesn't always mean that one is right because the other is not right but it is either an implication it is or that the person doesn't have enough knowledge about the subject. In some instances people just give their view as a debut which is for the most part just disagreeing. We are not told to just to agree to disagree even though there are some subjects that fit that context which is subjective and not as clear, such as certain prophetical scriptures. We are told to reason together. I am saying this as an observation and not pointing fingers but as food for thought because all of us can forget and miss the mark if we are not careful. We are to sharpen each other and encourage each other and yet be firm at the same time and we are not to be ignorant of Satan's devices which includes misunderstanding of interpretations of the word.

4. It also takes time to assimilate what one is saying with different hermeneutics than ones self.
Though I am curious what your objections to what I said about certain dispensational thinking and wrong conclusions that people have about the true meaning of dispensations it is up to you if you want to express them.
Keep studying and God bless. Jerry kelso

jerry kelso said:

Though I am curious what your objections to what I said about certain dispensational thinking and wrong conclusions that people have about the true meaning of dispensations it is up to you if you want to express them.
Keep studying and God bless. Jerry kelso

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Jerry,

I have spent the last couple of years trying to understand the origins of modern Dispensational Theology, which was taught at the church-body, where I was once a deacon.
My wife and I still love the people there. However, I had to let go of John Darby's doctrine and they could not.

I first ran into problems trying to get the pretrib rapture to match up with my Bible. When I said something about Matthew chapter 24, I was told it was written for the Jews. However, the Great Commission to the Church is at the end of Matthew's Gospel and Christ was talking to four men who He already knew would be the leaders of His Church mentioned in Matthew chapter 16. Were they Jewish? Yes. Jewish Christians.
That was the second thing that bothered me. Men of God, who I loved and they loved me were attempting to prove their doctrine, with answers which clearly contradicted the facts.

As I researched the origin of the doctrine, I found that John Nelson Darby brought the doctrine to America around the time of the Civil War. That was the second thing that bothered me. No one in my church body was telling those sitting in the pews the source of the doctrine or that the doctrine was only about 150 years old.


Sometime later we had a retired pastor join the church who was a graduate of Dallas Theological Seminary. He and the pastors decided to teach the doctrine during Sunday School. One of the classes was titled "Things to Come", based on the book of the same title, written by Dr. Dwight Pentecost. I got a copy of the book and read it. It helped me understand the overall theme of Dispensational Theology and also threw up a number of Red Flags.
The biggest of those was God going back to the Old Covenant system during the 7 year period before the Second Coming of Christ, which they claim is Daniel's 70th week, by adding a manmade "gap" not mentioned by the angel Gabriel to Daniel chapter 9.

The following article written by a Brethren Historian in 1966 shows the origin of the doctrine which has overtaken the modern Evangelical Church, especially Baptist churches.

Read pages 10-26.


PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) read pages 10-26

http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418

If you print out this article and give it to your preacher, you may find yourself being attacked like I have been.

The man who was the former pastor and attended Dallas Theological, had become my friend.
After I presented the information in the paper above to our church leadership during a deacon's meeting, the word soon got back to him.

The next Sunday he talked to me as if I was a dog that had urinated on the carpet, and knew better...

.

BABerean2 said:

Jerry,

I have spent the last couple of years trying to understand the origins of modern Dispensational Theology, which was taught at the church-body, where I was once a deacon.
My wife and I still love the people there. However, I had to let go of John Darby's doctrine and they could not.

I first ran into problems trying to get the pretrib rapture to match up with my Bible. When I said something about Matthew chapter 24, I was told it was written for the Jews. However, the Great Commission to the Church is at the end of Matthew's Gospel and Christ was talking to four men who He already knew would be the leaders of His Church mentioned in Matthew chapter 16. Were they Jewish? Yes. Jewish Christians.
That was the second thing that bothered me. Men of God, who I loved and they loved me were attempting to prove their doctrine, with answers which clearly contradicted the facts.

As I researched the origin of the doctrine, I found that John Nelson Darby brought the doctrine to America around the time of the Civil War. That was the second thing that bothered me. No one in my church body was telling those sitting in the pews the source of the doctrine or that the doctrine was only about 150 years old.


Sometime later we had a retired pastor join the church who was a graduate of Dallas Theological Seminary. He and the pastors decided to teach the doctrine during Sunday School. One of the classes was titled "Things to Come", based on the book of the same title, written by Dr. Dwight Pentecost. I got a copy of the book and read it. It helped me understand the overall theme of Dispensational Theology and also threw up a number of Red Flags.
The biggest of those was God going back to the Old Covenant system during the 7 year period before the Second Coming of Christ, which they claim is Daniel's 70th week, by adding a manmade "gap" not mentioned by the angel Gabriel to Daniel chapter 9.

The following article written by a Brethren Historian in 1966 shows the origin of the doctrine which has overtaken the modern Evangelical Church, especially Baptist churches.

Read pages 10-26.


PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) read pages 10-26

http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418

If you print out this article and give it to your preacher, you may find yourself being attacked like I have been.

The man who was the former pastor and attended Dallas Theological, had become my friend.
After I presented the information in the paper above to our church leadership during a deacon's meeting, the word soon got back to him.

The next Sunday he talked to me as if I was a dog that had urinated on the carpet, and knew better...

.

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baberean,

1. Let me start by saying that most every type of theology has some truth to some degree. Some may find one point saying something and go to seed on it. I can assure you that reformed theology and others are not perfect in their doctrine. Denominations are not scriptural but we have them and many good christians in them.

2. Second it is easy to get sucked into a belief of doctrine by a church. For those who exegete scripture they can expect to get attacked by those who believe they have truth because of their denominational belief that may be contrary to what the bible seems to be saying by others.

3. It is tough to be rebuked especially in a bad way. I have been attacked but I try to have a little wisdom in who to listen to and who not to and I still go study it out.

4. I love learning all kinds of different theologies and comparing them side by side and then deducting. This is one way for me to see plainly what the truth is.

5. If one is constantly using or trying to figure the other side out they have to understand the hermeneutics that they use. Everyone has hermeneutics whether they know it or don't understand it.
It is better to see what thoughts are correct and not just incorrect whether dispensational or reformed or any other type of theology.

6. Men are not infallible so we have to be careful to accept what they say as truth or write them off as heretics as well.

7. I have read a little of Darby and Dwight Pentecost and Ryrie and Larkin and Dake and more. I don't believe I agree with every jot and tittle but I do believe much of what they say.

8. Let me ask you something. When Paul said, he was given the Dispensation of Grace about the revelation of the mystery of Christ which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit that the gentiles should be fellow-heirs, and of the same body and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel. Do you think Paul was the only one with the message of grace of the mystery of Christ? No because his holy apostles and prophets were revealed by the Spirit too.

9. However, the implication of the term Dispensation of Grace does seem to point to God dealing in stewardships and we know that God dealt with men in different ages by gradual revelation. So in this context I do not see any reason but beneficial to understand dispensations or stewardships of relationships between Bereans seems to be a denominational church based on the scripture about the bereans. Will I believe that bereans are evil and heretic because they don't believe in pre-trib rapture or because they don't believe in dispensational theology. This is why the specific context of the belief has to be addressed and the overall context of what is spoken on that subject and not their whole christian belief across the board etc.

10. There are dispensations and there is a 70 week that has connection with the last days and there is a pre-trib rapture and all of these have to be understood in the proper perspective.

11. Some don't believe in a pre-trib rapture merely because they believe that it causes christians to be lethargic and some have been and taken that attitude. However, they are both wrong in the fact that God's word says to occupy until he comes. In some respects, whether pre, mid, or post rapture doesn't necessarily make a difference in a christian life's but the extremes can. I could make comments about mid or post positions in the same sense as they do about pre-trib but unless I can prove it by scripture it doesn't necessarily make a difference how people believe or respond. We have to be careful no matter what level we may be on because even those with degrees differ. Unless one really knows a doctrine deep enough it is easy to miss what is said or really believed. Calvinism is a classic of on the surface easy to understand until you get in the details. The devil in the details is usually true if you know what I mean. If you want to keep conversing it will be fine. Food for thought Jerry Kelso

jerry kelso said:

8. Let me ask you something. When Paul said, he was given the Dispensation of Grace about the revelation of the mystery of Christ which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit that the gentiles should be fellow-heirs, and of the same body and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel. Do you think Paul was the only one with the message of grace of the mystery of Christ? No because his holy apostles and prophets were revealed by the Spirit too.

9. However, the implication of the term Dispensation of Grace does seem to point to God dealing in stewardships and we know that God dealt with men in different ages by gradual revelation. So in this context I do not see any reason but beneficial to understand dispensations or stewardships of relationships between Bereans seems to be a denominational church based on the scripture about the bereans. Will I believe that bereans are evil and heretic because they don't believe in pre-trib rapture or because they don't believe in dispensational theology. This is why the specific context of the belief has to be addressed and the overall context of what is spoken on that subject and not their whole christian belief across the board etc.

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Jerry,

The term "dispensation" is not wrong in and of itself. Paul dispensed the Gospel, just as a pharmacist dispenses medication.

If you want to use the term to define a time period, I can see it being applied to the Old Testament and to the New Covenant.

The Gospel was announced at Genesis 3:15, and the promise to Abraham that through his seed all the nations would be blessed is also found in Genesis and confirmed in Galatians. Galatians 3:16.
Paul preached the same Gospel that Peter preached on the day of Pentecost.

I try to avoid the teachings of men because they are made of the same rotten flesh that I am made of.

That includes Calvin, Luther, Wesley, Darby, Scofield, and those of the modern world.

It is not that I am an better than them. Because I am not. However, I have been forced to change my understanding numerous times, because I listened to the words of a man.

I am willing to take a look at what each of them taught and apply it, if it agrees 100% with scripture.

Both Reformed covenant theology and Dispensational theology have problems, because they have forced the Bible to fit their viewpoints.

As a matter of fact, both of them have both overlooked New Covenant Theology, which is what the Apostle Paul taught.


What is New Covenant Theology?

.

jerry kelso said:

jan001,
1. God's timing of 1000 years is not denied because 2 Peter 3:8 shows this.

The 1000 years is in this context of Peter's concerning the Lord as willing that none should perish but all come to eternal life. This goes along with John 3:16.

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The words a thousand or the thousand when used alone do not refer to a literal one thousand. They refer to a large but unspecified number.

It was also connected with the state of the heavens and the earth now which are being reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. This goes with Hebrews 12:27-29.

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Please note that the hearers of this letter by the author of Hebrews states that these hearers were already receiving a kingdom that could not be shaken. Present tense.

The a thousand years, also known as the Church age or era, which began when Jesus ascended into heaven will end at precisely the time of Jesus' second coming and this also is the time He will make new heavens and a new earth. 2 Peter 3:10-13

Revelation 20 has nothing to do with the church now reigning for it is specific to the reigning in the kingdom and Satan being bound in the bottomless pit. If you think he is not deceiving now or in the tribulation then you ignore 1 Peter 5:8 and 1 Thessalonians 2:9-12.

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Satan's power was limited (metaphorically chained) by the power of Jesus' death on the cross. A spirit such as Satan cannot be literally physically chained. Satan has no physical body. Satan will be limited in power until shortly before Jesus' second coming. All the devils are doing Satan's work on earth for him while his own power is limited.

There are probably as many devils (also known as demons) on earth right now as there are people on earth right now. And each person must be vigilant against the temptations of the devil or devils who are seeking to destroy him.


Jesus is reigning right now in His kingdom over all the earth and He has been reigning from there in heaven over all things everywhere ever since He ascended into heaven and sat down at the right hand of His Father.



Jesus Christ first came into His kingdom 2000 years ago at His first coming. When Jesus returns to the earth for His second coming, He will defeat physical death forever and He will then turn His kingdom over to His Father.