Does the Bahai' religion...

jackcv · Nov 22, 2015

smaneck said:
My recollection is that the words "Hashem" and Jehovah occur nowhere in the NT. When He is accused of claiming to be God, He points out that the scriptures say "Ye are gods." (Mormons must love that one!) Nor can I find any place where Jesus refers to Himself as savior.

I sent you a couple definitive scriptural quotes of Jesus Christ above saying that. I'm glad you have zeroed in on the real question - our need for Atonememt and God's willingness and power to condescend and provide it for us.

Ultimately I believe repentance is the only thing God requires to forgive our sins. I believe that something like the Crucifixion was necessary to demonstrate the depth of God's love and bring about repentance. It is therefore based on our own needs not some abstract need for God to extract justice. That being the case, then I don't see this has something that would happen once and never again. God would try again and again to reach us throughout history.

We are on the same page of the hymnbook here. The fly on the page, though, is "abstract need." Just as you don't believe that anyone can be familiar with the voice of the Holy Spirit, in spite of thousands of years of evidence that many can and are, you don't seem to believe that a need which you don't currently understand really exists. It's just abstract, which I suppose means artificial, some sort of theological rationalization invented by man to try to understand God through our own pitiful intellects.

Such uninspired rationalization happens every day, of course, in every church house and synagogue. You and I both do it. It is why we need, and God offers again and again, personal communion with Him. James 1:5-8 is only one such invitation, but he gives some specific instructions that are helpful. Moroni 10:4-5 in the Book of Mormon is another such unequivocal promise, with step-by-step instructions.

Your expectation that the cross (metaphorcally speaking) would happen again and again is perfectly congruent with biblical Christianity because He commanded his disciples (meaning you and me) to take up our crosses daily. That is really congruent with all of the great world religions. CS Lewis goes into some detail about that in "Mere Christianity." The Almighty reaches out to humanity again and again, and is very flexible about how He does so. I bought and read a short treatise just last evening by a Sikh breakoff group; the title is "The Inner Voice," and you would find it a satisfying read. Same root and trunk.

jackcv · Nov 22, 2015

LoAmmi said:
Nothing but the job is already filled and the future king of Israel, who we refer to as the Messiah (as opposed to a messiah) is not the holder of the job.
Generally speaking, we [Jews] aren't the ones that made him so special in many ways. Some Hellenized Jews and later Christianity expanded the role of the Messiah to be more than what the Prophets describe. The hope in Judaism is far more for the Messianic age rather than the Messiah himself, but since the Messiah comes with the Messianic age they are tied at the hip so to say. I've reminded people often that the Tanach never refers to this future king as "HaMoshiach" but tends to use "David" or "son of David"

OK, thank you. So, what's so special about the Messiah in the Jewish thought? He's just another King David? Frankly, that's more than a little disappointing. David's carefully planned adultery, treachery and murder... I'm missing something here. Please enlighten us.

Alternatively, HaShem/Jehovah/I AM coming to earth

as a baby,
born in a barn,
a refugee,
life threatened repeatedly from childhood, for no honest reason,
a life of hard work stranded out in some little podunk village,
giving up the best 3 years of his life to freely serve and teach, with no home of his own,
taking upon himself the sins and suffering of all those who will repent and follow His lead,
kidnapped in the night, spit upon, insulted, tortured, unlawfully and brutally executed
the great Exemplar who really understands us,
who will return to earth resurrected, in power as the Messiah
who invites those of his children who will to overcome and sit with him on His throne, or enjoy other mansions that they can enjoy in His dominions forever -

...that is the kind of God whose appearing one can love. That's the One whom the whole world yearns for and will joyfully thank on bended knees. How can your idea of the Messiah be compared with that? I just don't understand it.

smaneck · Nov 22, 2015

jackcv said:
I sent you a couple definitive scriptural quotes of Jesus Christ above saying that.

Except they didn't say that. In fact, you carefully edited those verses such that they obscured the fact they were referring to Jesus as Messiah, not savior. I didn't think that was entirely honest of you.

Just as you don't believe that anyone can be familiar with the voice of the Holy Spirit, in spite of thousands of years of evidence that many can and are

Not really what I said. What I said is that one can't be certain, it is the Holy Spirit speaking to them rather than their own imagination or desires.

smaneck · Nov 22, 2015

simplegifts said:
Have you read Acts 9 and 22 concerning Paul's meeting with Christ?

Yes, Paul saw the Risen Christ. In fact he is the only eyewitness we have in the NT to that. I don't think that makes him a prophet, but I do take what he says about the resurrection seriously.

2 Peter3:15 Bear in mind that our Lords patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Now, that passage I find more problematic since I agree with most scholars that it is unlikely Peter wrote that.

LoAmmi · Nov 22, 2015

jackcv said:
OK, thank you. So, what's so special about the Messiah in the Jewish thought? He's just another King David? Frankly, that's more than a little disappointing. David's carefully planned adultery, treachery and murder... I'm missing something here. Please enlighten us.

The Messiah is the future king of Israel that rules at a time when there is Universal Knowledge of HaShem, Universal Peace, When All Jews live in Israel, and when the Temple is rebuilt. That's pretty much all the information we really have. So what we hope for is the things I listed with the Messiah being the person who will be King when it does.

Alternatively, HaShem/Jehovah/I AM coming to earth

as a baby,

born in a barn,

a refugee,

life threatened repeatedly from childhood, for no honest reason,

a life of hard work stranded out in some little podunk village,

giving up the best 3 years of his life to freely serve and teach, with no home of his own,

taking upon himself the sins and suffering of all those who will repent and follow His lead,

kidnapped in the night, spit upon, insulted, tortured, unlawfully and brutally executed

the great Exemplar who really understands us,

who will return to earth resurrected, in power as the Messiah

who invites those of his children who will to overcome and sit with him on His throne, or enjoy other mansions that they can enjoy in His dominions forever -

...that is the kind of God whose appearing one can love. That's the One whom the whole world yearns for and will joyfully thank on bended knees. How can your idea of the Messiah be compared with that? I just don't understand it.

Why the game of oneupsmanship? What if someone conceives of a Messiah that will come and give perfect health and eternal life to everybody in a snap and ensure that all violence and strife would be erased in the blink of an eye and everybody will get everything they ever wanted including that flying car you always really dreamed you had and nobody ever, ever has to die or go to a pit of Fire and everybody lives in perfect happiness forever including those who have previously died as they all come back fully restored? Maybe they'll argue with you that their concept it better and then you'd have to say why it isn't. It isn't about what's better or worse, it's about what I believe will happen and what we were told would happen?

dcalling · Nov 23, 2015

LoAmmi said:
The Messiah is the future king of Israel that rules at a time when there is Universal Knowledge of HaShem, Universal Peace, When All Jews live in Israel, and when the Temple is rebuilt. That's pretty much all the information we really have. So what we hope for is the things I listed with the Messiah being the person who will be King when it does.

Just curious, does all Jews needs to live in Israel when Messiah comes? what if some Jews want to live somewhere else (i.e. he/she married someone there and have friends)? Is this knowledge in scripture or just derived by some Rabbi? Thanks in advance!

LoAmmi · Nov 23, 2015

dcalling said:
Just curious, does all Jews needs to live in Israel when Messiah comes? what if some Jews want to live somewhere else (i.e. he/she married someone there and have friends)? Is this knowledge in scripture or just derived by some Rabbi? Thanks in advance!

Isaiah 11
10 In that day the Root of Jesse will stand as a banner for the peoples; the nations will rally to him, and his resting place will be glorious. 11 In that day the Lord will reach out his hand a second time to reclaim the surviving remnant of his people from Assyria, from Lower Egypt, from Upper Egypt, from Cush, from Elam, from Babylonia, from Hamath and from the islands of the Mediterranean.

Since that was basically the known world at the time, we believe it applies to all Jews.

Job8 · Nov 23, 2015

Arthra said:
Finally regarding Prophet Muhammad... Baha'is do recognise Prophet Muhammad as a Manifestation of God and we accept the Qur'an as an authentic repository of the Word of God...

Wow! Even Radical Islamists don't consider Muhammad to be a manifestation of God.

Muslims believe that Mohammad (also spelled as "Muhammad") (peace be upon him) is the last and final Messenger of God to be sent to humanity.

This is from "Questions about Islam".

Job8 · Nov 23, 2015

smaneck said:
Messiah means the Anointed King of the Jews. Has nothing to do with savior.

Especially when one believes that there are no sins to be atoned for. However, according to the Old Testament (unvarnished) MESSIAH DOES MEAN SAVIOR.

smaneck · Nov 23, 2015

Job8 said:
Especially when one believes that there are no sins to be atoned for.

Never said there was no sin.

However, according to the Old Testament (unvarnished) MESSIAH DOES MEAN SAVIOR.

Evidence?

smaneck · Nov 23, 2015

Job8 said:
Wow! Even Radical Islamists don't consider Muhammad to be a manifestation of God.

You can find the concept of Manifestations in Shi'ite Islam. There it is no even exclusive to Prophets.

This is from "Questions about Islam".

I'm talking about what the Qur'an says, not what Muslims believe.

dcalling · Nov 23, 2015

LoAmmi said:
Isaiah 11
10 In that day the Root of Jesse will stand as a banner for the peoples; the nations will rally to him, and his resting place will be glorious. 11 In that day the Lord will reach out his hand a second time to reclaim the surviving remnant of his people from Assyria, from Lower Egypt, from Upper Egypt, from Cush, from Elam, from Babylonia, from Hamath and from the islands of the Mediterranean.

Since that was basically the known world at the time, we believe it applies to all Jews.

Got it thanks. I interpret it as God will establish Israel, which happened. The above verses mainly says God will reclaim his people from surrounding areas, but it didn't say all Jews, so some might stay where they are. The reclaim will be primarily of the heart, as Jews will be to the world what Levi's to Jews.

LoAmmi · Nov 23, 2015

dcalling said:
Got it thanks. I interpret it as God will establish Israel, which happened. The above verses mainly says God will reclaim his people from surrounding areas, but it didn't say all Jews, so some might stay where they are. The reclaim will be primarily of the heart, as Jews will be to the world what Levi's to Jews.

Your opinion. We don't believe there's an "of the heart" thing, but that we will live in the land we were promised.

Job8 · Nov 23, 2015

smaneck said:
Evidence?

The Messiah is the Savior, the Redeemer, and the Deliverer of Israel (called "Jacob")

Westminster Leningrad Codex Isaiah 59:20
וּבָ֤א לְצִיֹּון֙ גֹּואֵ֔ל וּלְשָׁבֵ֥י פֶ֖שַׁע בְּיַֽעֲקֹ֑ב נְאֻ֖ם יְהוָֽה׃

King James Bible Old Testament
And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD. (Isa 59:20)

King James Bible New Testament (Romans 11:26)
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
===========================================
Westminster Leningrad Codex Psalm 72:14
מִתֹּ֣וךְ וּ֭מֵחָמָס יִגְאַ֣ל נַפְשָׁ֑ם וְיֵיקַ֖ר דָּמָ֣ם בְּעֵינָֽיו׃

King James Bible Old Testament
He shall redeem their soul from deceit and violence: and precious shall their blood be in his sight.
[The context of Psalm 72:1-20 makes it very clear that this Psalm is a Messianic psalm about the Lord Jesus Christ: His name shall endure for ever: his name shall be continued as long as the sun: and men shall be blessed in him: all nations shall call him blessed. (Ps 72:17).

Arthra · Nov 23, 2015

Job8 said:
Wow! Even Radical Islamists don't consider Muhammad to be a manifestation of God. This is from "Questions about Islam".

Yes... Thanks for your post... It may be the concept of "Manifestation of God" is unfamiliar to some and I will offer a brief summary of the subject by Julio Savi where anyone curious about it can read more...

http://bahai-library.com/books/quest/quest.06.html

smaneck · Nov 23, 2015

Job8 said:
The Messiah is the Savior, the Redeemer, and the Deliverer of Israel (called "Jacob")

Redeemer and Savior are two different things. The Messiah was supposed to redeem the Jews from captivity in Babylon.

dcalling · Nov 24, 2015

LoAmmi said:
Your opinion. We don't believe there's an "of the heart" thing, but that we will live in the land we were promised.

I am not disagree with you on the land is promised (and Jews already live there again, in the country of Israel). What I meant is when Messiah come, some Jews might still live in other places, but all of their heart will be towards God (there are actually atheist Jews, i.e. Jews of race but not believe).

LoAmmi · Nov 24, 2015

dcalling said:
I am not disagree with you on the land is promised (and Jews already live there again, in the country of Israel). What I meant is when Messiah come, some Jews might still live in other places, but all of their heart will be towards God (there are actually atheist Jews, i.e. Jews of race but not believe).

They will believe. Everybody will believe. It is a mistake to believe that Israel has been reestablished in the way the prophecies state. If the nation of Israel were destroyed and all Jews scattered again, it wouldn't violate the promises.

smaneck · Nov 24, 2015

LoAmmi said:
They will believe. Everybody will believe. It is a mistake to believe that Israel has been reestablished in the way the prophecies state. If the nation of Israel were destroyed and all Jews scattered again, it wouldn't violate the promises.

The nation of Israel wasn't promised to the Jews in any case, it was promised to Israel of which Judah was just a part. The territory promised to Jews (Judah) roughly coincides with the Gaza Strip.

LoAmmi · Nov 24, 2015

smaneck said:
The nation of Israel wasn't promised to the Jews in any case, it was promised to Israel of which Judah was just a part. The territory promised to Jews (Judah) roughly coincides with the Gaza Strip.

Kind of semantics here. We call Moses a Jew generally even though that would be wrong. Heck, we call the Levis around today Jews.

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