America a post-Christian nation

The entire western world has entered a post-christian phase since WW1

when you try to make Christianity as worldly as the world we are called out of, people will leave. it's sad because it is often done with the good intention of trying to keep folks in the faith, but has the opposite effect I think.

The West has only been "Christian" in name for many many years. This is why we are seeing the backlash against it in the last few decades.

For Catholicism just watch the Bing Crosby film, "Going My Way" and compare it with how that Church acts today. Since Vatican II Catholicism simply hasn't kept her place in society that she once held.

The best analogy I can think of on this is I remember in TV shows as a kid there was almost always a scene, at least once in a series, where parents read a book on talking to their kid and they try to talk in slang terms that are obviously not received nor understood. That's modern Western Christianity in a nutshell. Ironically in the years after Vatican II, the mainline Protestants had their own versions of that council.

Duplicate

I find this quote by St Francis of Assisi to be quite fitting in regard to the topic of this thread.

"Lord grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference." - St Francis of Assisi.

We laypeople both catholic and Orthodox should rather focus on living the gospel than to worry about the macro - things we cannot alter.

Peace be with you and put your trust in Christ.

I'm still waiting on the long-term fruit, but so far things look promising. This is in regard to several family members who have entered churches for the first time in their adult lives, being drawn there by the secular elements. However, I'm hoping they will "outgrow" that in due season, and seek something more meaningful. But so far, the fruit has been good.

I post that to say that there may in fact be a place for such meetings, though probably only for a tiny slice of society. I agree that using it as a means to keep those already churched is terribly misguided.

I think what Matt says has merit. I originally fell away from Christianity because I was turned off by praise bands and modern Christian music. I enjoyed the old school Methodist hymns, and it was a turn off to see those disappear in favor of praise bands. I then turned to Catholicism, but the modern hymns are also kind of bland and don't have the appeal of the old school Protestant hymns. I'm finding some solace in my search in Orthodoxy, though. It "feels" right.

I think what Kylissa says also has merit. The praise band, rock concert setting of some modern non denominational churches is appealing for those 30 and under. However, I *think* we'll see some people turn from that towards more traditional forms of Christianity once they become more familiar with theology and start searching for something deeper. On the other hand, some not as familiar with Christianity searching for something deeper may be turned off by the rock concert churches once they realize how shallow the theology in those churches happens to be.

Bible reading and prayer in schools is tricky because it becomes sectarian - I'm reminded of Alaskan Orthodox children being forced into iconoclastic Protestant schools by the US government, if you want an Orthodox example. I grew up in a town with substantial Hindu, Islamic, Jewish, and atheist populations, and I think it would have been very counterproductive to have any kind of enforced Christian practice in the public school. Courses touching on world religion, of course, did include Christianity, European history classes and American history classes discussed Christian theology when relevant, and at least one English literature class I had included some reading from the Bible.

The British empire should have collapsed, no matter what, because colonization did bad things to the colonized peoples.

The post-war German issue is rather complicated, but Versailles/punishment didn't have too much to do with what happened in Germany later.

The Russian revolution had been bubbling up for decades - WWI was the straw that broke the camel's back, but something was bound to happen.

I would also just say that there are a lot of good things about feminism historically that we as Orthodox Christians should get behind.

Anyway, America has never been a Christian nation or a Christian society, but we Christians should act as a city on a hill, as it were, but not confuse America or Americans for that non-worldly city.

@gzt -- What are your degrees in (you've said it before but I forgot)? I majored in anthropology, so I've touched on a lot of stuff you'd mentioned in both history and anthropology classes.

Math (undergraduate) and statistics (graduate), but I flirted with getting a second major in something in the humanities/social sciences.

America and the West in general are post-Christian without a doubt. Everyone is wrapped up in the Darwin evolution X-Men view of society, scientism, pan sexuality, consumerism, Black Friday worship, life is cheap, socialism has replaced religion, and idolatry rules the day. It's an age of "I'm not religious, I'm spiritual" stupidity. God help us...

Didn't the "Clash of Civilizations" guy (Huntington, was it?) argue that if we go by self-affiliation, America is actually more Christian now than at any other time in its history? I remember hearing that in one of the lectures by Fr. Josiah Trennam (sp.?) of the Antiochian Orthodox Church which were hosted on AFR, though I can't remember the exact details. Granted, that book was a few years ago at least, and a lot of this stuff like the rise of the unaffiliated/"nones" and the ever-evolving gay/pansexual/transexual/XYZsexual rights thing gaining major traction is just within the last 10-15 years, but still...I think it's good to be careful not to romanticize and fictionalize the past just because today seems worse by comparison. That is the nature of man, I guess. Remember the quote from Roman philosopher Cicero (d. 43 BC) about times being bad because children don't listen to their parents anymore and everyone is writing a book. Everything is always terrible, but it's hardly ever uniquely so.

And like gzt pointed out, I have no interest in being indoctrinated or having children indoctrinated in Protestant nonsense or worse. When I was a youngster of the age around which Roman Catholic children receive their first communion (7 or 8?), I can clearly remember the children of Roman Catholic parents being let out of school by special arrangement to attend catechism classes. It'd probably be best if that were the norm rather than trying to force everyone to learn this or that specific brand of Christian or other doctrine. Of course then you run into the problem that America is the most religiously diverse nation on the planet, and if the Catholics get this time off, then why don't I get time off for Holy Week, and why doesn't the Muslim get their work/school hours adjusted for Ramadan, and why can't the Hindus have something for Diwali, etc., etc. The only way around that would be to (gasp!) privilege the faith of the majority of the country, and JesusAllahBuddhaVishnuMuhammadXenuOrishaAsatru knows we can't have that!

Im not a Wilson fan and agree perhaps the USA should have remained neutral; but don't forget the USA came into that war almost at the end and had NO way to prevent it from occurring and may of the negative consequences would have undoubtedly occurred with or without a US entrance into the conflict. i.e. the punitive Treaty of versailles which helped lead to German National Socialism. just my two cents.

Dzheremi,
Then that proves America is a post christian society. In a christian society being the most "diverse" religious nation is not a sign of a christian nation but a secular liberal democracy. It would have been better if there was a state recognized religion, so everyone would know where they stand instead of frivolous lawsuits, and grown ups acting like victims when there ideology is under represented.

If the pluralities didnt like it they simply wouldn't move here. If back in 1965, America was like it is today, my father would never have moved here, just like he never contemplated moving to a middle eastern nation while he worked on kuwaiti oil rigs as a young man.

The thing is more and more families are not getting their children baptised, and those that do view it as a meaningless cultural tradition. I have a buddhist friend and recently I saw on her Fb page she posted photos of her "godson". Wondering what this was about I asked her. She was the sponsor for her best friend's baby, a roman catholic irish family. I asked her whether she converted from buddhism, she said no. She told me she made pretend she was roman catholic and they made up a story to the priest that her baptismal records were destroyed in the Tsunami (she is from Sri Lanka). When I asked what baptismal name she gave the priest ( her name is non-western but common in her region culture and should of raised red flags) , she had no clue what I was talking about, priest never asked. Christianity will simply shrink till its a minority cult religion.

Okay. Yeah, I agree.

PistolPete said:

Im not a Wilson fan and agree perhaps the USA should have remained neutral; but don't forget the USA came into that war almost at the end and had NO way to prevent it from occurring and may of the negative consequences would have undoubtedly occurred with or without a US entrance into the conflict. i.e. the punitive Treaty of versailles which helped lead to German National Socialism. just my two cents.

Click to expand...

Nothing to fret over, it is what it is. Whether cause and effect. Whether syptom or the disease, change happens and history is made.
For us Orthodox we can say "Christendom" officially came to an end with the murder of the last tsar putting an end to a christian roman empire.

But philosophical theories such as "self-expression values" for the reason of the popularity of democracy shows that the direction of man is rejection of God when man believes he has become self sufficient.