Pre-Trib Only When the rapture!

Psalm3704 said:

I don't pull verses out of context, you're just not able to understand old testament prophecies when you read them. Here's two that'll go over your head. Nothing underlined, nothing in bold letters, nothing in red. You try and figure out what it means since it's likely you'll accuse me of pulling verses out of context. They're slam dunk obvious the rapture is not yet imminent if you can understand them.

Haggai 2 NKJV
1 In the seventh month, on the twenty-first of the month, the word of the Lord came by Haggai the prophet, saying: 2 “Speak now to Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, governor of Judah, and to Joshua the son of Jehozadak, the high priest, and to the remnant of the people, saying: 3 ‘Who is left among you who saw this temple in its former glory? And how do you see it now? In comparison with it, is this not in your eyes as nothing? 4 Yet now be strong, Zerubbabel,’ says the Lord; ‘and be strong, Joshua, son of Jehozadak, the high priest; and be strong, all you people of the land,’ says the Lord, ‘and work; for I am with you,’ says the Lord of hosts. 5 ‘According to the word that I covenanted with you when you came out of Egypt, so My Spirit remains among you; do not fear!’

6 “For thus says the Lord of hosts: ‘Once more (it is a little while) I will shake heaven and earth, the sea and dry land; 7 and I will shake all nations, and they shall come to the Desire of All Nations, and I will fill this temple with glory,’ says the Lord of hosts. 8 ‘The silver is Mine, and the gold is Mine,’ says the Lordof hosts. 9 ‘The glory of this latter temple shall be greater than the former,’ says the Lord of hosts. ‘And in this place I will give peace,’ says the Lord of hosts.”

10 On the twenty-fourth day of the ninth month, in the second year of Darius, the word of the Lord came by Haggai the prophet, saying, 11 “Thus says the Lord of hosts: ‘Now, ask the priests concerning the law, saying, 12 “If one carries holy meat in the fold of his garment, and with the edge he touches bread or stew, wine or oil, or any food, will it become holy?”’”

Then the priests answered and said, “No.”

13 And Haggai said, “If one who is unclean because of a dead body touches any of these, will it be unclean?”
So the priests answered and said, “It shall be unclean.”
14 Then Haggai answered and said, “‘So is this people, and so is this nation before Me,’ says the Lord, ‘and so is every work of their hands; and what they offer there is unclean.
15 ‘And now, carefully consider from this day forward: from before stone was laid upon stone in the temple of the Lord— 16 since those days, when one came to a heap of twenty ephahs, there were but ten; when one came to the wine vat to draw out fifty baths from the press, there were but twenty. 17 I struck you with blight and mildew and hail in all the labors of your hands; yet you did not turn to Me,’ says the Lord. 18 ‘Consider now from this day forward, from the twenty-fourth day of the ninth month, from the day that the foundation of the Lord’s temple was laid—consider it: 19 Is the seed still in the barn? As yet the vine, the fig tree, the pomegranate, and the olive tree have not yielded fruit. But from this day I will bless you.’”
20 And again the word of the Lord came to Haggai on the twenty-fourth day of the month, saying, 21 “Speak to Zerubbabel, governor of Judah, saying:

‘I will shake heaven and earth.

22 I will overthrow the throne of kingdoms;
I will destroy the strength of the Gentile kingdoms.
I will overthrow the chariots
And those who ride in them;
The horses and their riders shall come down,
Every one by the sword of his brother.

23 ‘In that day,’ says the Lord of hosts, ‘I will take you, Zerubbabel My servant, the son of Shealtiel,’ says the Lord, ‘and will make you like a signet ring; for I have chosen you,’ says the Lord of hosts.”

Isaiah 26 NKJV
1 In that day this song will be sung in the land of Judah:
“We have a strong city;
God will appoint salvation for walls and bulwarks.
2 Open the gates,
That the righteous nation which keeps the truth may enter in.
3 You will keep him in perfect peace,
Whose mind is stayed on You,
Because he trusts in You.
4 Trust in the Lord forever,
For in YAH, the Lord, is everlasting strength.
5 For He brings down those who dwell on high,
The lofty city;
He lays it low,
He lays it low to the ground,
He brings it down to the dust.
6 The foot shall tread it down—
The feet of the poor
And the steps of the needy.”
7 The way of the just is uprightness;
O Most Upright,
You weigh the path of the just.
8 Yes, in the way of Your judgments,
O Lord, we have waited for You;
The desire of our soul is for Your name
And for the remembrance of You.
9 With my soul I have desired You in the night,
Yes, by my spirit within me I will seek You early;
For when Your judgments are in the earth,
The inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
10 Let grace be shown to the wicked,
Yet he will not learn righteousness;
In the land of uprightness he will deal unjustly,
And will not behold the majesty of the Lord.
11 Lord, when Your hand is lifted up, they will not see.
But they will see and be ashamed
For their envy of people;
Yes, the fire of Your enemies shall devour them.
12 Lord, You will establish peace for us,
For You have also done all our works in us.
13 O Lord our God, masters besides You
Have had dominion over us;
But by You only we make mention of Your name.
14 They are dead, they will not live;
They are deceased, they will not rise.
Therefore You have punished and destroyed them,
And made all their memory to perish.
15 You have increased the nation, O Lord,
You have increased the nation;
You are glorified;
You have expanded all the borders of the land.
16 Lord, in trouble they have visited You,
They poured out a prayer when Your chastening was upon them.
17 As a woman with child
Is in pain and cries out in her pangs,
When she draws near the time of her delivery,
So have we been in Your sight, O Lord.
18 We have been with child, we have been in pain;
We have, as it were, brought forth wind;
We have not accomplished any deliverance in the earth,
Nor have the inhabitants of the world fallen.
19 Your dead shall live;
Together with my dead body they shall arise.
Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;
For your dew is like the dew of herbs,
And the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.
21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain.​

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I guess you will have to explain it: it is just too late at night for me to think.

iamlamad said:

I guess you will have to explain it: it is just too late at night for me to think.

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Try reading in the morning after having some coffee. And if you still don't understand, pray for wisdom.






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Psalm3704 said:

Try reading in the morning after having some coffee. And if you still don't understand, pray for wisdom..

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Chances are about 100% that we would disagree on the meaning.
For Isa. 26:20, it is a perfect picture of the pretrib rapture: God is going to take us away from His wrath. We won't be here. Noah and his 8 floated far above the devastation, and is a type of the rapture. God is coming to judge, and in doing this will pour out His wrath on people that refuse to repent. God simply would not subject His children to His wrath.

Some think it will be as it was in the land of Goshen. It won't. When God destroys the seas, turning them to blood, it will kill all who are on the seas. When God turns the fresh water to blood, it will be undrinkable to those who have turned to God as well as to the sinner. Then the sun is cranked up to burn people, it will be just as hot for those that have turned to God as it will be for the sinner. Worse yet for those left behind, and those that turn to God during, God has already said that the Beast will be given authority to overcome the saints.

For those that cannot believe pretrib rapture verses, it will be a very hard time: first, you will be left behind. Then, you will be OVERCOME. It will be very hard: either take the mark and be doomed, or lose your head. My question is, WHY? When God has made a way of escape, and it is HIS WILL that we escape, why would anyone wish to set their OWN appointment?

iamlamad said:

For Isa. 26:20, it is a perfect picture of the pretrib rapture: God is going to take us away from His wrath. We won't be here. Noah and his 8 floated far above the devastation, and is a type of the rapture. God is coming to judge, and in doing this will pour out His wrath on people that refuse to repent. God simply would not subject His children to His wrath.

Some think it will be as it was in the land of Goshen. It won't. When God destroys the seas, turning them to blood, it will kill all who are on the seas. When God turns the fresh water to blood, it will be undrinkable to those who have turned to God as well as to the sinner. Then the sun is cranked up to burn people, it will be just as hot for those that have turned to God as it will be for the sinner. Worse yet for those left behind, and those that turn to God during, God has already said that the Beast will be given authority to overcome the saints.

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Talk about one who's incapable of staying on the topic on the timing of the rapture, you really went off into the boonies here drifting miles away from the rapture going into 6 different directions with nonsense covering 6 different subjects. Ahh? Run out of ideas to share about the rapture already? Cough.....strawman!

Wanna learn something new about the timing of the rapture? It's not imminent yet! Look at Isaiah 26:15. Israel has to expand all it's borders before the rapture happens in Isaiah 26:19-21. Israel will be at war in Jordan, Syria and the Sinai (Egypt) before the tribulation and it's expand it's territory into those countries. Then the peace will come with a treaty and the tribulation begins. Read the OT prophecies, it's all there.


Israel isn't even at war yet and won't expand it's territories until the war. After the war comes "the peace treaty." And you think the rapture will happen this year? ROFL!

That's what the tetrad was for, Israel will be going into war possibly by next year. The tetrads has always been a sign for Israel and the Jewish people, never the church. The blood moon for the church in Joel 2:30-32 and Revelation 6:12-14 comes later.

One fourth of the bible from the book of Isaiah to the book of Malachi are all prophecies about Christ's 1st and 2nd Coming. Roughly another 10%-20% from the historic books of Genesis to Esther contains prophecies. A big portion of Psalms to Ecclesiastes is also dedicated to prophecy. Add up all that together and you'll realize most of the OT is written about Christ's second coming. In the new testament, there's roughly just 5 pages in the book of Revelation about the tribulation, another 4 pages on the Olivet Discord and 2 pages from Paul, 1 page from the book of John on prophecy. Add up all this and my question is what do you know about prophecy? Who gave you the authority to correct everyone about prophecy when you know so little? Now you are right about a pretrib rapture, but with everything else you're just in the dark while having a mouth that runs faster than what your brain can absorb from the bible.

My advice, gotta read the old testaments bud, that where the real prophecies are. The church goes to heaven, don't need to know what happens in those 7 years on earth. Israel stays on earth those 7 years. If you wanna know what will happen, read the OT prophecies. God gave Israel the prophecies.

iamlamad said:

For those that cannot believe pretrib rapture verses, it will be a very hard time: first, you will be left behind. Then, you will be OVERCOME. It will be very hard: either take the mark and be doomed, or lose your head. My question is, WHY? When God has made a way of escape, and it is HIS WILL that we escape, why would anyone wish to set their OWN appointment?

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Make that 7 different topics now. I'm pretty sure I'm more pretrib than you are and know more pretrib scriptures than you. I can identify and dig up more too. The only thing you'll know more than me is about being left behind. Apparently you talk about this topic with everyone here as if your life is destine for it.

I would relax and keep doing what Christ told us to do, stay focus on doing His commandments before His return: preach the gospel, make disciples of all the nations and love others as He's loved the church. This is what will get you save, not conversing with every other Tom, Dick and Harry you're talking to about being left behind. I know where I'm going, do you? Christ said "come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest." Matthew 11:28. Take your mind off from being left behind so much, focus on doing His commandments, they are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3.










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Psalm3704 said:

Talk about one who's incapable of staying on the topic on the timing of the rapture, you really went off into the boonies here drifting miles away from the rapture going into 6 different directions with nonsense covering 6 different subjects. Ahh? Run out of ideas to share about the rapture already? Cough.....strawman!

Wanna learn something new about the timing of the rapture? It's not imminent yet! Look at Isaiah 26:15. Israel has to expand all it's borders before the rapture happens in Isaiah 26:19-21. Israel will be at war in Jordan, Syria and the Sinai (Egypt) before the tribulation and it's expand it's territory into those countries. Then the peace will come with a treaty and the tribulation begins. Read the OT prophecies, it's all there.

Isaiah 26:15 ESV But you have increased the nation, O LORD, you have increased the nation; you are glorified; you have enlarged all the borders of the land.​

Israel isn't even at war yet and won't expand it's territories until the war. After the war comes "the peace treaty." And you think the rapture will happen this year? ROFL!

That's what the tetrad was for, Israel will be going into war possibly by next year. The tetrads has always been a sign for Israel and the Jewish people, never the church. The blood moon for the church in Joel 2:30-32 and Revelation 6:12-14 comes later.

One fourth of the bible from the book of Isaiah to the book of Malachi are all prophecies about Christ's 1st and 2nd Coming. Roughly another 10%-20% from the historic books of Genesis to Esther contains prophecies. A big portion of Psalms to Ecclesiastes is also dedicated to prophecy. Add up all that together and you'll realize most of the OT is written about Christ's second coming. In the new testament, there's roughly just 5 pages in the book of Revelation about the tribulation, another 4 pages on the Olivet Discord and 2 pages from Paul, 1 page from the book of John on prophecy. Add up all this and my question is what do you know about prophecy? Who gave you the authority to correct everyone about prophecy when you know so little? Now you are right about a pretrib rapture, but with everything else you're just in the dark while having a mouth that runs faster than what your brain can absorb from the bible.

My advice, gotta read the old testaments bud, that where the real prophecies are. The church goes to heaven, don't need to know what happens in those 7 years on earth. Israel stays on earth those 7 years. If you wanna know what will happen, read the OT prophecies. God gave Israel the prophecies.



Make that 7 different topics now. I'm pretty sure I'm more pretrib than you are and know more pretrib scriptures than you. I can identify and dig up more too. The only thing you'll know more than me is about being left behind. Apparently you talk about this topic with everyone here as if your life is destine for it.

I would relax and keep doing what Christ told us to do, stay focus on doing His commandments before His return: preach the gospel, make disciples of all the nations and love others as He's loved the church. This is what will get you save, not conversing with every other Tom, Dick and Harry you're talking to about being left behind. I know where I'm going, do you? Christ said "come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest." Matthew 11:28. Take your mind off from being left behind so much, focus on doing His commandments, they are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3.
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Wow! You are really showing me something here. All this time I was sure Israel increased her borders in the 6 day war. By the way, I don't think they CAN increase their border to the West until the oceans are gone. Just a thought. I am not sure there is anything like true chronology in Isaiah's prophecies as there is in Revelation. You can just keep on laughing. We will see. I agree with you on the tetrad and that Israel will soon be at war. I am curious to see how it will begin.

You go ahead and belittle me all you want. Until you get what we have in the New Testament right, you will be more lost about the end times than I am. Always remember, God is a self revealing God and the longer time goes on, the more He reveals. Revelation is by far the most in depth look at the 70th week of Daniel, for example, taking 9 chapters to cover the 70th week. If you don't understand those, then you think you know, when in fact you don't. I disagree with you on the white horse. I disagree with you on Daniel 8 and 11. Anyone that cannot tell the difference in scriptures about Antiochus and The Antichrist Beast of Revelation should not be boasting. In fact, you probably do know much more about Old Testament prophecies than I do. I have not spent as much time on them as I should. I doubt seriously that you are more pretrib that I am. I am not sure that is possible! ;-) I am glad you are pretrib, for that is truth. Another truth is that many who think they know will be left behind at the pretrib rapture. That is why I talk of it frequently.

iamlamad said:

Wow! You are really showing me something here. All this time I was sure Israel increased her borders in the 6 day war. By the way, I don't think they CAN increase their border to the West until the oceans are gone.

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Yeah well, here's the same advise again: read the bible, OT prophecies.

Look at the map. https://www.google.com/maps/@31.4021465,34.442089,10z
See that area on the western border of Israel? That's the Gaza. They will be expanding into the Gaza also.

What is modern day Philistia in the bible? That's the Gaza. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philistia

And prophecies about the Gaza and the canaanites in the near future. Obadiah 1:19, Ezekiel 25:15-17, Isaiah 14:28-32, Jeremiah 47:1-7, Psalms 108:8-9 and Joel 3:4. Israel will expand westward too.


Read the bible and stop speculating with prophecy. Everything is given in the bible. You're only studying 1% of the prophecies in the entire bible while constantly correcting others as if you know 100%.










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Psalm3704 said:

Yeah well, here's the same advise again: read the bible, OT prophecies.

Look at the map. https://www.google.com/maps/@31.4021465,34.442089,10z
See that area on the western border of Israel? That's the Gaza. They will be expanding into the Gaza also.

What is modern day Philistia in the bible? That's the Gaza. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philistia

And prophecies about the Gaza and the canaanites in the near future. Obadiah 1:19, Ezekiel 25:15-17, Isaiah 14:28-32, Jeremiah 47:1-7, Psalms 108:8-9 and Joel 3:4. Israel will expand westward too.

Obadiah 1:19 ESV Those of the Negeb shall possess Mount Esau, and those of the Shephelah shall possess the land of the Philistines; they shall possess the land of Ephraim and the land of Samaria, and Benjamin shall possess Gilead.​

Read the bible and stop speculating with prophecy. Everything is given in the bible. You're only studying 1% of the prophecies in the entire bible while constantly correcting others as if you know 100%.
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God is a self-revealing God and over time reveals more and more. The New Testament is much clearer on prophecy that the Old. For example, where Daniel gave one or two sentences, Revelation gives one or two chapters. It is great to spend time in Old Testament prophecies, but they MUST BE FILTERED through the new, or one will end up with wild ideas that will not agree with the NEW. It is therefore MUCH wiser to begin in the New and learn to know the intent of the Author in the NEW. Then one can fill in missing pieces from passages in the Old.

Jesus told us to WATCH for His coming many times. From what I see, you are watching for other things. That is a dangerous place to be. Did you never stop to think that some of the scriptures you are looking at will be fulfilled AFTER Jesus comes for His bride?

Besides, I already have found out that on some things, you THINK you know, when in fact you don't. For example, the first seal. You will have to study in the NEW Testament to find the truth about the seals.

iamlamad said:

God is a self-revealing God and over time reveals more and more. The New Testament is much clearer on prophecy that the Old. For example, where Daniel gave one or two sentences, Revelation gives one or two chapters. It is great to spend time in Old Testament prophecies, but they MUST BE FILTERED through the new, or one will end up with wild ideas that will not agree with the NEW. It is therefore MUCH wiser to begin in the New and learn to know the intent of the Author in the NEW. Then one can fill in missing pieces from passages in the Old.

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You haven't studied the OT enough to make this judgement comparing OT prophecies to NT prophecies. You admitted in your previous you don't know OT prophecies much.

iamlamad said:

Jesus told us to WATCH for His coming many times. From what I see, you are watching for other things. That is a dangerous place to be. Did you never stop to think that some of the scriptures you are looking at will be fulfilled AFTER Jesus comes for His bride?

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That's because a pretrib rapture is the only thing you know. It's the only thing you follow because it's the only thing you got correct. Now your problem is not knowing when it will happen before the tribulation. You think it's imminent, and the next prophetic event to happen, so did Hal Lindsey. He thought the rapture was back in 1988. When the rapture happens before the tribulation someday, he can claim he was right because it happened pretrib. You claimed it'll happen this year and say you're right even if it happens 10 years from now. Bottom line is, it's not yet imminent. There's still many prophecies that will happen before the rapture. And a good prophetic scholar can understand other prophecies given in the bible on the timing of the rapture and narrow it down to the year, season, month, and within days, because all this information is already given in the bible. The only thing not, is the day and hour. How do you think the wise men from the east knew about the birth of Christ 2000 years ago? The information is in the bible. And there's 1000 times more information on the 2nd coming compared to the 1st coming.

If you understand other prophecies concerning His return, you would be watching those other signs too. Instead of arguing with others over the timing whether if it's pretrib, midtrib or posttrib. This is kid's stuff for people's knowledge on prophecy is only at a basic level. If you know the prophecies, you wouldn't need to make up myths about how XYZ will play out.

So yeah, I study and follow other things in the bible. These other things in the bible tells me the year the rapture will happen, the season the rapture will happen, the month the rapture will happen. The actual day, that I don't know but I have it narrow down to certain days when it will happen.

Now based on how much I know verses how much you know about His return, who's the one really doing the watching?

iamlamad said:

Besides, I already have found out that on some things, you THINK you know, when in fact you don't. For example, the first seal. You will have to study in the NEW Testament to find the truth about the seals.

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You only claim I don't know because I disagree with your assessment on the seal. The bible said Jesus is the One who opens the seals while in heaven. He died in 33 AD.

You think the first seal was opened in 32 AD and represent the church, to me that's a ludicrous idea. The purpose of the church is to love thy neighbor and make disciples of all nations. Jesus did not even come as a conqueror during His first coming and He will not until the tribulation. There's absolutely no way the 1st seal implies the church.

Just because the rider coming in a white colored horse, it does not make it the church. If the bow is a weapon of war, the horse would be a red color, not white. The color of the horse itself tells you what the bow is. Something you obviously didn't know.

The rider on the white horse is not the church, it's the antichrist. He "had" a bow. The bow is not a weapon of war. He "had" a bow meaning at some future time, he will no longer have a bow. This happens when he's given the crown.



The word bow has many definitions. The bow in the 1st seal is a posture, as an act of reverence or submission. This is something even many translations got wrong.

Just because the rider coming in a white colored horse, it does not make it the church. If the bow is a weapon of war, the horse would be a red color, not white. The color of the horse itself tells you what the bow is. Something you obviously didn't know.

The rider on the white horse is the antichrist who comes in by peace and flattery (a bow: submission), and will later obtain great statues when he will be made their leader (crown). To the muslims, he's currently a nobody. He's not a descendant of Muhammad and not the rightful Islamic Mahdi. But after some serious kissing up and uniting all the muslim countries in the Middle East together peaceably, he becomes their somebody to lead them against Israel during the tribulation.









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Psalm3704 said:

You haven't studied the OT enough to make this judgement comparing OT prophecies to NT prophecies. You admitted in your previous you don't know OT prophecies much.

That's because a pretrib rapture is the only thing you know. It's the only thing you follow because it's the only thing you got correct. Now your problem is not knowing when it will happen before the tribulation. You think it's imminent, and the next prophetic event to happen, so did Hal Lindsey. He thought the rapture was back in 1988. When the rapture happens before the tribulation someday, he can claim he was right because it happened pretrib. You claimed it'll happen this year and say you're right even if it happens 10 years from now. Bottom line is, it's not yet imminent. There's still many prophecies that will happen before the rapture. And a good prophetic scholar can understand other prophecies given in the bible on the timing of the rapture and narrow it down to the year, season, month, and within days, because all this information is already given in the bible. The only thing not, is the day and hour. How do you think the wise men from the east knew about the birth of Christ 2000 years ago? The information is in the bible. And there's 1000 times more information on the 2nd coming compared to the 1st coming.

If you understand other prophecies concerning His return, you would be watching those other signs too. Instead of arguing with others over the timing whether if it's pretrib, midtrib or posttrib. This is kid's stuff for people's knowledge on prophecy is only at a basic level. If you know the prophecies, you wouldn't need to make up myths about how XYZ will play out.

So yeah, I study and follow other things in the bible. These other things in the bible tells me the year the rapture will happen, the season the rapture will happen, the month the rapture will happen. The actual day, that I don't know but I have it narrow down to certain days when it will happen.

Now based on how much I know verses how much you know about His return, who's the one really doing the watching?

You only claim I don't know because I disagree with your assessment on the seal. The bible said Jesus is the One who opens the seals while in heaven. He died in 33 AD.

You think the first seal was opened in 32 AD and represent the church, to me that's a ludicrous idea. The purpose of the church is to love thy neighbor and make disciples of all nations. Jesus did not even come as a conqueror during His first coming and He will not until the tribulation. There's absolutely no way the 1st seal implies the church.

Just because the rider coming in a white colored horse, it does not make it the church. If the bow is a weapon of war, the horse would be a red color, not white. The color of the horse itself tells you what the bow is. Something you obviously didn't know.

The rider on the white horse is not the church, it's the antichrist. He "had" a bow. The bow is not a weapon of war. He "had" a bow meaning at some future time, he will no longer have a bow. This happens when he's given the crown.

Revelation 6:2 (KJV) And I saw , and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering , and to conquer.​

The word bow has many definitions. The bow in the 1st seal is a posture, as an act of reverence or submission. This is something even many translations got wrong.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/bow
verb (used without object)
1.
to bend the knee or body or incline the head, as in reverence,submission, salutation, recognition, or acknowledgment.
2.
to yield; submit:
to bow to the inevitable.
3.
to bend or curve downward; stoop:
the pines bowed low.
verb (used with object)
4.
to bend or incline (the knee, body, or head) in worship, submission,respect, civility, agreement, etc.:
He bowed his head to the crowd.
5.
to cause to submit; subdue; crush.
6.
to cause to stoop or incline:
Age had bowed his head.
7.
to express by a bow:
to bow one's thanks.
8.
to usher (someone) with a bow (usually followed by in, out, etc.):
They were bowed in by the footman.
9.
to cause to bend; make curved or crooked.
noun
10.
an inclination of the head or body in salutation, assent, thanks,reverence, respect, submission, etc.
Verb phrases
11.
bow out, to resign a position or withdraw from a job, competition,obligation, etc.:
He bowed out after two terms as governor.
Idioms
12.
bow and scrape, to be excessively polite or deferential.
13.
make one's bow, to appear publicly for the first time, as a performer, politician, etc.:
The young pianist made her bow last night to an appreciative audience.
14.
take a bow, to step forward or stand up in order to receiverecognition, applause, etc.:
The conductor had the soloists take a bow.​

Just because the rider coming in a white colored horse, it does not make it the church. If the bow is a weapon of war, the horse would be a red color, not white. The color of the horse itself tells you what the bow is. Something you obviously didn't know.

The rider on the white horse is the antichrist who comes in by peace and flattery (a bow: submission), and will later obtain great statues when he will be made their leader (crown). To the muslims, he's currently a nobody. He's not a descendant of Muhammad and not the rightful Islamic Mahdi. But after some serious kissing up and uniting all the muslim countries in the Middle East together peaceably, he becomes their somebody to lead them against Israel during the tribulation.

Daniel 11:21 ESV
In his place shall arise a contemptible person to whom royal majesty has not been given. He shall come in without warning and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.

Daniel 11:21 NLT
"The next to come to power will be a despicable man who is not in line for royal succession. He will slip in when least expected and take over the kingdom by flattery and intrigue.

Daniel 11:21 KJV
And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.

Revelation 6:2 KJV
And I saw , and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.​

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If it was written that the rider was bowing, you might have something. You don't. It does not say that. "he that sat on him had a bow." A hundred people out of a hundred reading this would picture a bow in his HAND. Did you never find the GREEK word here translated "bow?" It is the Greek word "toxon" from which we get our word, "toxic."

It is used here in the Greek Septuigint:
Genesis 27:3 Now therefore take, I pray thee, thy weapons, thy quiver and thy bow, and go out to the field, and take me some venison;

2 Kings 13:15
15 And Elisha said unto him, Take bow and arrows. And he took unto him bow and arrows.

There are many others, but this is sufficient. A bow (to shoot arrows) was called a "toxon." Perhaps they used POISON on their arrows way back then, and that is the reason they called a bow "toxon."

I do agree, Strong's missed it big time by saying he had a RIBBON!

The rider has a bow to represent the weapons of OUR warfare: we have spiritual weapons that are mighty before God.

Your theory is simply wrong. You are pulling the first seal OUT OF ITS CONTEXT. Do you have any understanding at all of chapter 5? Go back and study: John saw in this vision of the throne room, the very moment Jesus ascended into heaven and sent the Holy Spirit down. This is written to SET THE TIMING for the first seals. You wish to ignore this - so end up with false doctrine. Your timing is about 2000 years off! You need to find something that fits WHITE on earth about 32 AD. Then you will have the timing right.

Forget this false theory of the antichrist: he has not shown up yet, and it is the year 2015. To be sure he is alive and well somewhere on earth - but we are at least 3 1/2 years from his revealing, and he will not be revealed until the Bride is "taken out of the way."

You claimed it'll happen this year

In MIGHT happen this year, and it MIGHT happen next year. It WILL happen soon. I don't think I ever claimed it WOULD BE this year - but it certainly COULD be.

That's because a pretrib rapture is the only thing you know. I would not bet on that if I were you.

Now your problem is not knowing when it will happen before the tribulation. The rapture comes as the TRIGGER for the Day of the Lord and God's wrath. Do you know what "lock time" means?

There's absolutely no way the 1st seal implies the church. That shows HOW LITTLE you know, when you think you know a lot. Anyone can make the bible say anything by pulling a verse out of its context. What? Do you imagine Satan, the god of this present world, would just stand aside and invite the church into Samaria, then out if Israel into the places Paul carried it? Did you not remember that all 10 of the other disciples were MARTYRED? It took OVERCOMING and conquering to get the gospel into every new place. There were PRINCIPALITIES there to fight, conquer, and overcome before the gospel to be preached. The truth is, the first seal is a perfect picture of the church sent out, because GOD wrote it for and about the church.

I guess you never noticed that John used he color white 17 times in Revelation, and every OTHER Time it was to represent righteousness. God is NOT schizophrenic! He would not use white to represent righteous 16 times and to represent evil once! That is what is really ludicrous. The HORSE and the BOW represent war, but white represents righteousness: it will be RIGHTEOUS OVERCOMING. God used red for Satan's wars. The Red, the Black, the Pale are to represent Satan's attempts to STOP and slow the advance of the church and the gospel the church spreads. These three ride together - while the white rider rides alone.

What I find out when reading your posts, you THINK you know, when in fact you don't.

No man knows the time or the day nor the hour neither the angels nor the Son but the Father which is in heaven.but on that day he will rapture/resurrect his own dead first then we that are alive that remain that are in Christ also shall ascend to be with The Lord in the clouds so shall we be with him forever.

Mark 13-32
But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.

This thread is supposed to be pre-trib only. I am not a moderator, just trying to keep things civil and to respectfully ask folks to honor the tags.

I honor my Father which is in heaven.his word is to be declare among the nations to every creature under heaven. I reed your post as well @Handmaid for Jesus and you also agree with scripture so why call me out? Why is the truth so offensive to us ppl?.

A greater Hope said:

I honor my Father which is in heaven.his word is to be declare among the nations to every creature under heaven. I reed your post as well @Handmaid for Jesus and you also agree with scripture so why call me out? Why is the truth so offensive to us ppl?.

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My post was not for you brother, but for the one who does not agree with scripture. I am sorry if I offended you. But thanks for letting me know that it offended you. I think you and I are on one accord. Peace be unto you.

Handmaid for Jesus said:

My post was not for you brother, but for the one who does not agree with scripture. I am sorry if I offended you. But thanks for letting me know that it offended you. I think you and I are on one accord. Peace be unto you.

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Oh sister my heart is filled with joy for you clearing that up,and I'm srry as well I thought you were opposing my post srry for the confusion but Shalom!

A greater Hope said:

Oh sister my heart is filled with joy for you clearing that up,and I'm srry as well I thought you were opposing my post srry for the confusion but Shalom!

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Understanding is the best thing in the world.

Ebed, thanks,. but you did not pay attention to the tag again. LOL. We forgive you. Pre-trib tag everyone.

iamlamad said:

If it was written that the rider was bowing, you might have something. You don't. It does not say that. "he that sat on him had a bow." A hundred people out of a hundred reading this would picture a bow in his HAND. Did you never find the GREEK word here translated "bow?" It is the Greek word "toxon" from which we get our word, "toxic."

It is used here in the Greek Septuigint:
Genesis 27:3 Now therefore take, I pray thee, thy weapons, thy quiver and thy bow, and go out to the field, and take me some venison;

2 Kings 13:15
15 And Elisha said unto him, Take bow and arrows. And he took unto him bow and arrows.

There are many others, but this is sufficient. A bow (to shoot arrows) was called a "toxon." Perhaps they used POISON on their arrows way back then, and that is the reason they called a bow "toxon."

I do agree, Strong's missed it big time by saying he had a RIBBON!

The rider has a bow to represent the weapons of OUR warfare: we have spiritual weapons that are mighty before God.

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Boy, no wonder you have problems understanding OT prophecies. If you can't figure out John figuratively describing the seals in the new testament, there's no way, you'll get by in the old testament. John does the same thing describing the other seals using symbols.

Now look at those verses you pulled out of context, they specifically describes a weapon. Read the other parts of those two verses. In Genesis 27:3, it also said: thy weapons, thy quiver. In 2 Kings 13:15, it also said: arrows.

Both of those verses specifically describes a weapon.


Read and compare Genesis 27:3 and 2 Kings 13:15 to the 1st seal. Do you see John describing the bow as a type of weapon or with arrows? NO!

If the bow is a weapon of war, rider on the white horse would be coming in a red horse instead. The reason He comes in a white horse is because he comes in peace.


Now compare other verses from the bible using the word bow as a gesture, a form of submission, reverence. Than compare them to Daniel 11:21, his description of how the antichrist will come into power. You should pay more attention to Daniel's writings as he's the expert on the antichrist and revealed more information about him than any other prophets in the bible.

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iamlamad said:

Your theory is simply wrong. You are pulling the first seal OUT OF ITS CONTEXT. Do you have any understanding at all of chapter 5? Go back and study: John saw in this vision of the throne room, the very moment Jesus ascended into heaven and sent the Holy Spirit down. This is written to SET THE TIMING for the first seals. You wish to ignore this - so end up with false doctrine. Your timing is about 2000 years off! You need to find something that fits WHITE on earth about 32 AD. Then you will have the timing right.

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You're so full of nonsense. John does not mention anywhere in Revelation about the 1st seal being pentecost. Do you understand the book of Revelation is about the revelation of Jesus Christ. And do you know why the first 4 seals are referred to as the 4 Horsemen of the Apocalypse? It's all about the end times, not 32 AD.

I still can't figure out how you would ignore the fact that John wrote the book of Revelation in 95 AD. Why in the world would John write about the past (32 AD) in a book about the future? First explain this with scripture, not with your own theory.

iamlamad said:

Forget this false theory of the antichrist: he has not shown up yet, and it is the year 2015. To be sure he is alive and well somewhere on earth - but we are at least 3 1/2 years from his revealing, and he will not be revealed until the Bride is "taken out of the way."

You claimed it'll happen this year

In MIGHT happen this year, and it MIGHT happen next year. It WILL happen soon. I don't think I ever claimed it WOULD BE this year - but it certainly COULD be.

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That's utterly false, we are not 3 1/2 years away from the revealing of the antichrist. This is just your own theory.

Prove me wrong and please show us where this is written in the bible.

iamlamad said:

I guess you never noticed that John used he color white 17 times in Revelation, and every OTHER Time it was to represent righteousness. God is NOT schizophrenic! He would not use white to represent righteous 16 times and to represent evil once! That is what is really ludicrous. The HORSE and the BOW represent war, but white represents righteousness: it will be RIGHTEOUS OVERCOMING. God used red for Satan's wars. The Red, the Black, the Pale are to represent Satan's attempts to STOP and slow the advance of the church and the gospel the church spreads. These three ride together - while the white rider rides alone.

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How many times must you read 2 Corinthians 11:13-15 before something clicks in your head? How many times have I've shown you this scripture now? Anyone can appear in white. It's not the outside that counts as many wolves have came in sheep clothing. If you don't understand this, you have no idea how the antichrist will come onto the world scene.


And the first four seals is not about satan's attempt to stop the church. All the seals are birth pang signs of the end times from Christ to the church just before He comes for His bride.

In the 7th Seal, the church is seen in heaven with the Groom.

In the 6th Seal, the rapture happens.


In the 5th Seal, the time of the martyrs: Severe Christian persecution.


In the 4th Seal, death.

In the 3rd Seal, famine.

In the 2nd Seal, war.

In the 1st Seal, the antichrist came into power in his country. Read the book of Daniel. He knows a lot about the a/c.

And NO lamad, the antichrist does not suddenly appear on the earth -- like the two witness -- on the day of the peace treaty. God does not out of the blue send evil into the world. The antichrist is alive and ruling his country this very moment. And no, the 1st seal was not opened in 32 AD. The seals are signs about the end times leading up to the church to be with Christ.









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Psalm3704 said:

Boy, no wonder you have problems understanding OT prophecies. If you can't figure out John figuratively describing the seals in the new testament, there's no way, you'll get by in the old testament. John does the same thing describing the other seals using symbols.

Now look at those verses you pulled out of context, they specifically describes a weapon. Read the other parts of those two verses. In Genesis 27:3, it also said: thy weapons, thy quiver. In 2 Kings 13:15, it also said: arrows.

Both of those verses specifically describes a weapon.

Genesis 27:3 Now therefore take, I pray thee, thy weapons, thy quiver and thy bow, and go out to the field, and take me some venison;

2 Kings 13:15
15 And Elisha said unto him, Take bow and arrows. And he took unto him bow and arrows.​

Read and compare Genesis 27:3 and 2 Kings 13:15 to the 1st seal. Do you see John describing the bow as a type of weapon or with arrows? NO!

If the bow is a weapon of war, rider on the white horse would be coming in a red horse instead. The reason He comes in a white horse is because he comes in peace.

Revelation 6:1-2
Now I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals; and I heard one of the four living creatures saying with a voice like thunder, “Come and see.” 2 And I looked, and behold, a white horse. He who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.​

Now compare other verses from the bible using the word bow as a gesture, a form of submission, reverence. Than compare them to Daniel 11:21, his description of how the antichrist will come into power. You should pay more attention to Daniel's writings as he's the expert on the antichrist and revealed more information about him than any other prophets in the bible.

Genesis 37:10
So he told it to his father and his brothers; and his father rebuked him and said to him, “What is this dream that you have dreamed? Shall your mother and I and your brothers indeed come to bow down to the earth before you?”

Genesis 49:8
“Judah, you are he whom your brothers shall praise; Your hand shall be on the neck of your enemies; Your father’s children shall bow down before you.

Exodus 11:8
And all these your servants shall come down to me and bow down to me, saying, ‘Get out, and all the people who follow you!’ After that I will go out.” Then he went out from Pharaoh in great anger.

Exodus 20:5
you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me,​

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Wow! I have run smack into clueless before, but not to this depth. Now stop and think for a minute: what language was our English translation of Revelation translated from? Of course, we know it was GREEK. When we read "BOW" in the description of the first seal, the Greek word is TOXON, from which we get our English word, "toxic." Also "toxemia," "Toximic," "toxicant," "toxicity," "toxicology," "intoxicate," etc. Do you get the picture? All these words describe something DEADLY that will kill humans. This Greek word has absolutely NOTHING to do with bowing down. You seem to think, because we have more than one meaning in English for the three letter word, "bow," you can just choose one of your choice! How silly can a bible reader be? You have missed it further than Strongs as in "bow" here means a simply ribbon - as in "tie a yellow ribbon on the old OAK tree..." It would be impossible to escape reality any further.

We are MOST CERTAINLY talking of a bow that shoots arrows. That is what TOXON means in Greek. From "Wordnik" online:

• The Greek word [Greek: toxon] signified primarily that specially oriental weapon which we call a bow, but the word in the earliest authors included in its meaning the arrow shot from the bow.

Scientific American Supplement, No. 643, April 28, 1888

• SOCRATES: Doxa is either derived from dioxis (pursuit), and expresses the march of the soul in the pursuit of knowledge, or from the shooting of a bow (toxon); the latter is more likely, and is confirmed by oiesis

How is this Greek word “toxon” used in the bible? In the KJV we have only one use. But in the Greek Septuagint we have many uses.

Genesis 27
Now therefore take, I pray thee, thy weapons, thy quiver and thy bow, and go out to the field, and take me some venison;
νυν ουν λαβε το σκευος σου την τε φαρετραν και το τοξον και εξελθε εις το πεδιον και θηρευσον μοι θηραν

Genesis 48
22. Moreover I have given to thee one portion above thy brethren, which I took out of the hand of the Amorite with my sword and with my bow.

εγω δε διδωμι σοι σικιμα εξαιρετον υπερ τους αδελφους σου ην ελαβον εκ χειρος αμορραιων εν μαχαιρα μου και τοξον

Joshua 24
12. And I sent the hornet before you, which drave them out from before you, even the two kings of the Amorites; but not with thy sword, nor with thy bow.
και εξαπεστειλεν προτεραν υμων την σφηκιαν και εξεβαλεν αυτους απο προσωπου υμων δωδεκα βασιλεις των αμορραιων ουκ εν τη ρομφαια σου ουδε εν τω τοξον σου

2 Samuel 1
22. From the blood of the slain, from the fat of the mighty, the bow of Jonathan turned not back, and the sword of Saul returned not empty.
αφ' αιματος τραυματιων απο στεατος δυνατων τοξον ιωναθαν ουκ απεστραφη κενον εις τα οπισω και ρομφαια σαουλ ουκ ανεκαμψεν κενη

2 Samuel 22
35. He teacheth my hands to war; so that a bow of steel is broken by mine arms.
διδασκων χειρας μου εις πολεμον και καταξας τοξον χαλκουν εν βραχιονι μου

1 Kings 22 [Context] [Commentary] [Map]
34. And a certain man drew a bow at a venture, and smote the king of Israel between the joints of the harness: wherefore he said unto the driver of his chariot, Turn thine hand, and carry me out of the host; for I am wounded.
και ενετεινεν εις το τοξον ευστοχως και επαταξεν τον βασιλεα ισραηλ ανα μεσον του πνευμονος και ανα μεσον του θωρακος και ειπεν τω ηνιοχω αυτου επιστρεψον τας χειρας σου και εξαγαγε με εκ του πολεμου οτι τετρωμαι


From Wiktionary: “Ancient Greek words with their derivatives in English”

τόξον ‎(tóxon)

toxon

τοξ-

tox-

archer’s bow, poison

toxin, toxophily


From constilationofwords web site:

The Greeks called this constellation Toxeutes, the Archer, from Toxon, bow. Modern archers are known as toxophilites or 'bow lovers', toxophily is the sport of archery. The word Taxus, the yew genus and the Latin word for yew, is of the same origin as Greek toxon, bow. In Europe bows were mostly made from yew, and English bows in particular were invariably cut from yew trees. Greek toxicon, neuter of the adjective toxicos, means 'arrow poison' and poisons smeared on arrows were fired from bows (toxa or toxon) derived from the yew-tree. Our verb intoxicate originally meant 'to poison'. The 17th century herbalist Nicolas Culpepper said of Yew toxins: "it is the most active vegetable poison known in the whole world, for in a small dose it instantly induces death"

Another web site:
'Toxakun' (I believe that's the correct Gk. word) was a plural form of - a bow plus arrows tipped with poison; from which the English words 'toxic' and toxicology derived their meaning.
Toxon is used in the LXX 75 times for the Hebrew, qeshet.

Qeshet in Hebrew:

1. bow (for hunting, battle)
2. bowmen, archers
3. bow (fig. of might)
4. rainbow

Do you get the picture? I could give MANY more examples of this Greek word, TOXON. It means a bow that shoots arrows.
It does NOT mean some kind of ribbon. It does NOT mean any kind of bowing down.
Will you now admit you are wrong?

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