Shouldnt Christian Women wear head coverings in Public Worship?

SistrNChrist said:

Another perspective on the head coverings could be cultural in nature

Click to expand...

That's hardly the issue, but it is certainly a lame excuse. The hard questions to ask are:

1. Is First Corinthians Scripture?

2. Is NT Scripture to be applied by Christians in every culture and every century until the Second Coming of Christ?

3. Is First Corinthians addressed to a church and teaching both church (assembly)doctrine and practice?

4. Does the Holy Spirit cause sixteen verses of Scripture to be penned only for first century Christians, and does Paul say that his teachings will be irrelevant after that?

5. Is Paul teaching Bible doctrine to support the Christian practice of head coverings for women? Is there much more here than meets the eye?

6. If certain Bible teachings are culture-dependent and others are not, who has the authority to determine what is what?

What has generally happend is that 1 Cor 11:1-16 has been arbitrarility dismissed by most evangelicals and fundamentalists, yet 1 Cor 11:17-34 is taken with complete earnestness and seriousness. Does that make any sense?

Would someone around here please consider Gal 3:28??

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

zippy2 said:

Would someone around here please consider Gal 3:28?? "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

Click to expand...

We should be careful to take Bible truth in context. What is the context of this verse? and what is the context of 1 Cor 11? There are two different teachings being presented.

THE FAMILY OF GOD
Galatians 3 is telling us about "the family of God" -- "the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus" (v 26). Within the family of God -- those who have "put on Christ" or been born again -- there are absolutely no distinctions because it is ONE SPIRITUAL BODY (v 28). This is the Church, the Body, the Bride, and the Building of Christ, which will eventually come the Wife of the Lamb (Rev 19:7).

THE LOCAL ASSEMBLY
At the same time, THERE ARE DIFFERENCES in the roles of men and women WITHIN THE ASSEMBLY (and within the home also). That is where the teaching on women's head covering, submission, and silence within the assemblies (churches) comes in.

Job8 said:

We should be careful to take Bible truth in context. What is the context of this verse? and what is the context of 1 Cor 11? There are two different teachings being presented.

THE FAMILY OF GOD
Galatians 3 is telling us about "the family of God" -- "the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus" (v 26). Within the family of God -- those who have "put on Christ" or been born again -- there are absolutely no distinctions because it is ONE SPIRITUAL BODY (v 28). This is the Church, the Body, the Bride, and the Building of Christ, which will eventually come the Wife of the Lamb (Rev 19:7).

THE LOCAL ASSEMBLY
At the same time, THERE ARE DIFFERENCES in the roles of men and women WITHIN THE ASSEMBLY (and within the home also). That is where the teaching on women's head covering, submission, and silence within the assemblies (churches) comes in.

Click to expand...

In Context Gal 3:26

is telling us
For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27

For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Gal 3:28

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

It is clearly stating that no longer is THERE Jew OR Greek, bond OR free, male OR female FOR WE ARE ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS.

We all have the same standing. Women being inferior was a cultural norm for that time. Jesus treated women otherwise.

zippy2 said:

We all have the same standing. Women being inferior was a cultural norm for that time. Jesus treated women otherwise.

Click to expand...

Please read what was posted carefully. Nothing was said about the inferiority of women. Study the Bible first in its entirety. Study the context of passages also. And whatever was written by the apostles was also what Jesus taught.

In the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox church, at most parishes women and girls wear headscarves, which they tighten when approaching the Chalice.

These tend to be of silk or lace and some of the younger ladies at my Syriac parish manage to use them in a flattering manner.

I also love the Anglican tradition of ladies wearing broad brimmed hats to church: if Queen Elisabeth II would wear it, it works for me. Or the bonnets associated with Western Europe in prior centuries.

I am under the understanding that women wore head coverings back in Biblical times because when away from home they did not want to be associated with the prostitutes of the day who didn't wear head coverings as a sign of their pagan temple prostitution affiliation and the like.
The Bible in the Old Testament seems to confirm this according to spiritual prostitution of the Jews with others outside the faith, as ones who were bold prostitutes who wore hairstyles which showed their, "brazen foreheads," as a sign of their craft and rebellion toward God.
However, many African-American women and others consistently wear hats and coverings in church to this very day, as an sign and object of their husbands being in authority over them as the spiritual leader of the household looking to God, and then the woman in subjection to him, covering their heads as a symbol of obedience to the word of God and the husband as chief under Christ.
And as a symbolic gesture as it is, I see no conflict with the word of God according to this.
Thanks,

SAE

Job8 said:

We should be careful to take Bible truth in context. What is the context of this verse? and what is the context of 1 Cor 11? There are two different teachings being presented.

THE FAMILY OF GOD
Galatians 3 is telling us about "the family of God" -- "the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus" (v 26). Within the family of God -- those who have "put on Christ" or been born again -- there are absolutely no distinctions because it is ONE SPIRITUAL BODY (v 28). This is the Church, the Body, the Bride, and the Building of Christ, which will eventually come the Wife of the Lamb (Rev 19:7).

THE LOCAL ASSEMBLY
At the same time, THERE ARE DIFFERENCES in the roles of men and women WITHIN THE ASSEMBLY (and within the home also). That is where the teaching on women's head covering, submission, and silence within the assemblies (churches) comes in.

Click to expand...

The wife of the Lamb is found in Rev. 21:9-10

Job8 said:

THE LOCAL ASSEMBLY
At the same time, THERE ARE DIFFERENCES in the roles of men and women WITHIN THE ASSEMBLY (and within the home also). That is where the teaching on women's head covering, submission, and silence within the assemblies (churches) comes in.

Click to expand...

I just thought I would mention concerning silence within the assemblies the following:

Other than the words of the Lord Jesus Christ Himself, the most important words ever to be spoken to the Church were these: HE IS RISEN!

I am certainly glad Mary did not follow the silence rule!

I am assuming this is another out of context statement, though.

No replies?

WithLoveFromAlyssa said:

I have just stumbled upon this. I never knew the bible said anything about a woman wearing a head covering during Church/prayer! Theres so much I'm still learning its crazy...Anywho..Please watch this video and discuss this with me.

Should Christian women wear head coverings in public worship? - YouTube

Click to expand...

I think it depends on how the individual woman feels at any given time. I like head coverings sometimes. Sometimes not.

In my worship I feel I have to differentiate between what would be the patriarchal dominant cultural practice described in scripture, and that of what God looks at and expects of me. He's not superficial, he see's the heart where his laws are written. And how we live those from the inside out. Not from the outside in.

1watchman said:

Well, the fact remains that women should cover their heads, for their hair is their glory, God says, and they should not glory before God in the assemblies.

Click to expand...

That is not the reasoning given in my Bible. The reasoning is:

A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. 8 For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; 9 neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. 10 It is for this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head....

13...Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? 14 Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him, 15 but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For long hair is given to her as a covering. 16 If anyone wants to be contentious about this, we have no other practice—nor do the churches of God.
I Corinthians 11:7-9, 13-16 (NIV 1984)

Pointing out that long hair is to a woman's glory speaks to the idea that the very nature of things tells us this, it points to this fact.
It seems the most important reason (other than that God commands it, via Paul) would be as a sign for angels.See
Hebrews 1:14: Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?
I am not Catholic, but I as a child I recall all the woman wore hats or scarves. I don't wear a covering, but wish I could.

at least for 1 Corinthians 11:10 the word "sign" just doesn't appear in the Greek texts (neither Byzantine tradition nor Nestle-Aland), and that verse says pretty much that a women ought to have (Greek word can also mean 'must') authority over her own head.

Also the idea of a veil is completely foreign to western peoples, and shouldn't just assumed to be a sign of submission for women. At least in the ANE during different periods of time a veil was a status symbol for women, of some sort of independence. Basically neither slaves nor prostitutes were allowed to wear veils in public because that would be impersonating a free woman. In Corinthians at least, it seems that Paul is arguing that a woman has her own authority to decide whether to wear a veil or to have long hair.

branchofthevine said:

at least for 1 Corinthians 11:10 the word "sign" just doesn't appear in the Greek texts (neither Byzantine tradition nor Nestle-Aland), and that verse says pretty much that a women ought to have (Greek word can also mean 'must') authority over her own head.

Also the idea of a veil is completely foreign to western peoples, and shouldn't just assumed to be a sign of submission for women. At least in the ANE during different periods of time a veil was a status symbol for women, of some sort of independence. Basically neither slaves nor prostitutes were allowed to wear veils in public because that would be impersonating a free woman. In Corinthians at least, it seems that Paul is arguing that a woman has her own authority to decide whether to wear a veil or to have long hair.

Click to expand...

I quite disagree with your notions...from the text...the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man.
(that is the subject expounded upon)
the sign for angels...I am in disagreement with your ideas/conclusions. I stand behind the work of the interpreters of the NIV 1984, I can't do the work myself and their work proves faithful in so many areas. Those interpreters spend a lifetime immersed in the original language.

throughfireytrial said:

I quite disagree with your notions...from the text...the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man.
(that is the subject expounded upon)
the sign for angels...I am in disagreement with your ideas/conclusions. I stand behind the work of the interpreters of the NIV 1984, I can't do the work myself and their work proves faithful in so many areas. Those interpreters spend a lifetime immersed in the original language.

Click to expand...

That's cool, my interpretation (which was a bit rushed tbh) isn't the law of the land, plus Paul says a bit later that if people disagree over this then you know its no big deal.

I think it would be interesting to see if woman and man in this text can be rendered as wife and husband, or if that is too far of a stretch. Also, the angel dilemma, is it an angel or a messenger? I don't really know what tradition Paul is drawing on here for it being an angelic being (Genesis?) or if it really is just like the messenger (the one carrying the letter perhaps?)

branchofthevine said:

That's cool, my interpretation (which was a bit rushed tbh) isn't the law of the land, plus Paul says a bit later that if people disagree over this then you know its no big deal.
I think it would be interesting to see if woman and man in this text can be rendered as wife and husband, or if that is too far of a stretch. Also, the angel dilemma, is it an angel or a messenger? I don't really know what tradition Paul is drawing on here for it being an angelic being (Genesis?) or if it really is just like the messenger (the one carrying the letter perhaps?)

Click to expand...

I believe using the husband/wife concept in this text as opposed to having it apply to all men and all women fails. God speaks of the founding of the practice going back to the events of the creation and expounds on this in that God allows for this principal to show itself in human customs...woman generally have longer hair...and when it is long indeed it is in fact to her glory. (He's saying a type of natural sign that women should cover their head for her hair alone serves in the world as a sign.) He reminds that man is created in the image of God and should therefore not cover his head and that this is found in nature...men general have short hair.
That these natural signs are no longer as widely practiced is in my view evidence of the power of lawlessness at work as explained in II Thessalonians 2.
Angels are messengers and they are sent here to serve us...ministering spirits.
I believe Paul is drawing on inspiration of God and his instruction upon his conversion.

branchofthevine said:

That's cool, my interpretation (which was a bit rushed tbh) isn't the law of the land, plus Paul says a bit later that if people disagree over this then you know its no big deal.

Click to expand...

No, Paul does not say that disagreeing with this practice is no big deal, quite the contrary, he say:

If anyone wants to be contentious about this, we have no other practice--nor do the churches of God.

graciesings said:

My Mom and I have decided that hats count, but I don't like to wear them because it brings up a vanity issue. (I wind up wanting pretty hats and wanting attention for them.) Hats are also less practical in a windy climate, although in a very sunny area they might be more practical than the other.

Some women in our town basically wear doilies on their heads. To me that isn't much of a "covering," so I usually knit something that goes from my forehead to my neck. I also wear scarves, but not the same way Muslim women do. They cover every bit of their hair and neck, I wrap it over most of my hair and some of my neck.

If you have any questions, please ask
Grace

Click to expand...

Orthodox Jews, women, often wear wigs to cover all their hair. Covering the hair is one of the rules that they must follow. It may be in the Talmud, I've never researched it but many dress codes, for both men and women, are in the Talmud, even to which shoe and the process of tying them is in the Talmud.

Hank77 said:

Orthodox Jews, women, often wear wigs to cover all their hair. Covering the hair is one of the rules that they must follow. It may be in the Talmud, I've never researched it but many dress codes, for both men and women, are in the Talmud, even to which shoe and the processing of tying them is in the Talmud.

Click to expand...

I'm sorry, Orthodox Jews do it and so it must be true? We live only under guidance of Scripture. Some Jewish men cover their heads which is anti-Scriptural indeed.

throughfireytrial said:

I'm sorry, Orthodox Jews do it and so it must be true? We live only under guidance of Scripture. Some Jewish men cover their heads which is anti-Scriptural indeed.

Click to expand...

Go fight with someone else, I didn't say what you said.