The Greater Exodus than isnt taught, but the Rapture is.

keras · Nov 18, 2015

True Science said:
Though I agree with very much what you says, I respectfully disagree with you that there is no point at which the saints will be resurrected and raptured to heaven bodily. It is quite clear from Revelation 7 and 19 that they are going to be in heaven for time while the Trumpets of Judgement with their Bowls of Wrath are being poured upon the earth. But at the end of this thing the final part of the judgment is for the Lord himself along with the saints to return to earth and finish off Antichrist and his armies, and then he will restore the Land of Israel and make it his home and Kingdom. I understand that there will be biological scattered Jews and lost tribes of Israel from the nations who were not saved will actually walk back to the Land weeping. This will happen to them due to seeing all that is going on and repenting and calling on God's name and they will walk back to the Land and be cleansed from their evil.

Thanks, TS.
Revelation 7:1-3 sets the earthly scene for all the following prophesied events. The great tribulation [ordeal] of verse 14 refers to the previous event, the Sixth Seal, not to the Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls to come later. Even the throne of God, verse 15, is on earth as Ezekiel 1:4 saw it. Rev 7:16 The Lamb will protect them from the sun.....in heaven?
No, the Lord's holy people remain on earth and some will be conquered by the AC, Daniel 7:25, but those who stand firm in their faith, Daniel 11:32, will go to a place of safety on earth. Revelation 12:14
Do not be confused by thinking there is two separate peoples of God. There is only one people, one promise and that is to all who truly believe in the Lord and obey His Commandments. John 10:16, Ephesians 4:4-6 That a proportion will be actual descendants of Jacob, is clear, this will fulfil God's promises to the Patriarchs.

True Science · Nov 18, 2015

[deleted]

iamlamad · Nov 18, 2015

keras said:
I find it rather sad that Christians should have so much disagreement about God's plans for His people. There is no doubt from Matthew 24:31, 1 Thess 4:15-17 and other scriptures, that there will be a type of rapture at the time of Jesus' Return to earth. This rising of His righteous people is just a gathering to where He is, that is: in Jerusalem, not to heaven.

The truth about the future:
Jeremiah 33:1-3 The Word of the Lord came to Jeremiah while he was imprisoned. The Lord says: If you call to Me, I will answer and tell you of great and mysterious things that you are unaware of.
Jeremiah prophesied to the House of Judah, some years after the House of Israel was taken into exile by the Assyrians. He foretold how things would be after the Babylonian conquest of Judah, but this was not completely fulfilled then or after the Roman conquest of Judah in 70AD:
Jeremiah 33:4-5 & 10 The houses of this city and the great buildings of Judah which are now destroyed by the sword, will be filled with dead bodies. They are those slain by the Lord Himself, because He has turned away from them. The Lord says: See this Land, now in ruins and devoid of people and animals. Jer. 9:10-11

Ezekiel 21:14...swing the great sword of slaughter three times, whirling about Judah. As Ezekiel says: there will be a triple fulfilment of the punishment of Judah. Two have happened, Babylon and Rome, the next is ‘by the Lord Himself’, by the means of a coronal mass ejection, a sunstrike. This event is prophesied and graphically described over 100 times in the Bible, as ‘the terrible Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath’. The entire Middle East will become ‘ruined and devoid of people and animals’. This was not the case with the two previous punishments. Ezekiel 6:14, Zephaniah 1:18, Zechariah 3:10

Jeremiah 33:6-9 In this Land, will be heard once more the sounds of joy and gladness, of weddings and celebrations. People will shout: Praise the Lord, for He is good, His love endures forever’, as they offer thanksgiving in the House of the Lord. By the Word of the Lord: In this place and in all its towns, now ruined and cleared of all peoples and animals, flocks and herds will once more graze. My people will receive all the blessings that I have promised to them. Ezekiel 36:8-12
Great are the promises the Lord has made to His righteous people. They will indeed ‘shout praises to the Lord’, when they are settled into their inheritance. ‘The House of the Lord’ - the third Temple will be built in Jerusalem. Isaiah 35:1-10, Amos 9:13-15

Jeremiah 33:15-16 In those Days, I will raise up a righteous leader, one descended from David. Hosea 1:11 He will maintain the Law and justice in all the Land, all the people will be kept safe and will live undisturbed in the place of righteousness. Ezekiel 38:8

Jesus is from the line of David, however His Return to rule comes later, because the prophesies in Jeremiah 30:21 and Hosea 1:11, say the people will elect a leader. Who this will actually be, is told to us by Haggai;
Haggai 2:21-23 On the Day that I shake the heavens and the earth, I will overthrow rulers, break the power of the godless peoples and destroy all military forces. I shall take you, Zerubbabel, My servant to once again lead My people, for it is you that I have chosen. [Zerubabbel – Hebrew = One sown in, or: out of Babylon]

Jeremiah 33:17-26 It is unthinkable that I, the Lord could annul the Covenant that I made with David, the Levitical priests, or the two families of Israel and Judah. In My compassion, I will restore their fortunes and keep My promises to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Isaiah 54:9-10 Reference: REB, NIV, KJV. Some verses abridged.

Wow! All this time I was sure it was King David that would be reigning during the Millennial reign.

I think you have left John 14 out of your calculation. Jesus did NOT spend the last 2000 years in Jerusalem on earth building mansions for us.

iamlamad · Nov 18, 2015

True Science said:
Lamad,

You will never find an ancient writer who believed even close to exactly what you do. You theology is entirely new. It is even newer than the original Dispensationalism, which is also very new. It is pathetic.

God is a self revealing God. The longer time goes on the more knowledge we have of the scriptures. There is MUCH revealing going on these days. We SHOULD know more now then then. I disagree with most of the old Commentaries on much of Revelation, but that does not bother me at all. I certainly know that there have been dispensations and another will soon come.

iamlamad · Nov 18, 2015

True Science said:
There is nowhere in Scripture that says if someone doesn't believe in a secret rapture they will be left behind. Nowhere.

Did you ever count up how many times we have in scriptures telling us to WATCH? Did you ever read about people being found lukewarm? Do you even imagine someone lukewarm will make it to heaven? Did you forget about the 5 foolish virgins? They were Short on oil, representing the Holy Spirit. Did you ever stop to think? HOW MANY in the church today are what God would call "filled with the Spirit?" Most in the church don't even know what that means. I doubt if you know.

By the way, there is no scripture that mentions our God is a TRIUNE being. But in fact there are scriptures that prove He is.

iamlamad · Nov 18, 2015

True Science said:
The 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls in Revelation are the same thing. The second half of Revelation repeats the chronology again with more details. Regardless with what this very deceived man thinks Revelation is not in 100% chronological order from start to finish. This is not surprising since this is a common thing in the OT prophets as well. John's Revelation is written just like the OT prophets and gives many of the same things too but with new fuller details.

What may be common in Old Testament prophesies does not have to be common in the new. We discover chronology by study. Your theory on the trumpets and bowls is as BOGUS as anything written here. Anyone that cannot tell the difference between 1/3 and 3/3 should probably go back to school. Did you never stop and think how much of revelation is numbered for sequencing, not by translators but by John himself, and the Holy Spirit? Yet there are some that even want to rearrange John's numbered sequences! Go figure.

Now, it is written as it is written, with numbered sequences throughout. If you wish to prove John and the Holy Spirit did not write in proper chronology, please show us scripture and verse that can prove what you say. Show us things NOT written in proper sequence.

iamlamad · Nov 18, 2015

keras said:
Thanks, TS.
Revelation 7:1-3 sets the earthly scene for all the following prophesied events. The great tribulation [ordeal] of verse 14 refers to the previous event, the Sixth Seal, not to the Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls to come later. Even the throne of God, verse 15, is on earth as Ezekiel 1:4 saw it. Rev 7:16 The Lamb will protect them from the sun.....in heaven?
No, the Lord's holy people remain on earth and some will be conquered by the AC, Daniel 7:25, but those who stand firm in their faith, Daniel 11:32, will go to a place of safety on earth. Revelation 12:14
Do not be confused by thinking there is two separate peoples of God. There is only one people, one promise and that is to all who truly believe in the Lord and obey His Commandments. John 10:16, Ephesians 4:4-6 That a proportion will be actual descendants of Jacob, is clear, this will fulfil God's promises to the Patriarchs.

I don't think so! John shows us the throne room of heaven in chapters 4 & 5. He told us about the 24 elders and the 4 beasts.
You cannot pull verses out of context to fit a theory! Do it the OTHER WAY! Form a theory from what is written IN CONTEXT. Notice:

11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

This is FOR SURE the same throne, the same elders and the same four beasts John spoke of in chapter 4. In other words, this great crowd, too large to number, is IN HEAVEN. It is the very same heaven Jesus went to - to sit at the Father's right hand. It is the very same heaven Jesus went to - to build mansions for us.

I do congratulate you on recognized that this "great tribulation" is NOT the days of GT that Jesus spoke of. I agree 100% there. But I don't think it is speaking of the 6th seal either. I am convinced it is speaking of days just like what ISIS has been doing: murdering anyone who calls themselves Christian. We live in days of GT. When people are murdered because they love Jesus, it is certainly great tribulation for them - and cannot get any greater, for they cannot be killed twice.

keras · Nov 18, 2015

iamlamad said:
I don't think so! John shows us the throne room of heaven in chapters 4 & 5. He told us about the 24 elders and the 4 beasts.
You cannot pull verses out of context to fit a theory! Do it the OTHER WAY! Form a theory from what is written IN CONTEXT. Notice:
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

This is FOR SURE the same throne, the same elders and the same four beasts John spoke of in chapter 4. In other words, this great crowd, too large to number, is IN HEAVEN. It is the very same heaven Jesus went to - to sit at the Father's right hand. It is the very same heaven Jesus went to - to build mansions for us.

But Revelation 7:1-3 is John viewing an earthly scene. Whether he is in heaven still or not is beside the point. It is on earth that the 144,000 are, along with the 'vast multitude'. Confirmed by Revelation 14:1, where Jesus stands on Mt Zion.
They worship God in His Temple.... Revelation 7:15 This conforms to Revelation 3:12 I shall make them pillars in My Temple, they will remain there forever and in the new Jerusalem that will come down to earth.

Your determination to go to heaven is an error, as such a destination for humans was never part of God's plan. We have work to do for God on earth and our reward will be great, provided we fulfil our God given tasks.

vinsight4u · Nov 18, 2015

iamlamad · Nov 18, 2015

keras said:
But Revelation 7:1-3 is John viewing an earthly scene. Whether he is in heaven still or not is beside the point. It is on earth that the 144,000 are, along with the 'vast multitude'. Confirmed by Revelation 14:1, where Jesus stands on Mt Zion.
They worship God in His Temple.... Revelation 7:15 This conforms to Revelation 3:12 I shall make them pillars in My Temple, they will remain there forever and in the new Jerusalem that will come down to earth.

Your determination to go to heaven is an error, as such a destination for humans was never part of God's plan. We have work to do for God on earth and our reward will be great, provided we fulfil our God given tasks.

You seem to have a FIXATION against heaven for some reason! I hope you know all who have died in Christ are there NOW.
Next, John was called up to heaven in Rev. 4:1 and is certainly STILL THERE. But that is beside the point. We are concentrating on what John is seeing.

In verse 1 He looked down from heaven and saw 4 angels at the 4 corners of the earth - so definitely seeing earth in this part of his vision.

Next, in verse 9 the vision changed from earth to heaven:
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

Notice, John SAW this happen in his vision: Take off your preconceived glasses and just follow:
John SAW (beheld) a great multitude standing before the throne.

First we take note that since chapter 4 John has NOT SEEN the throne move from heaven to earth and has not written such a thing. Therefore we conclude that in chapter 7 the throne is EXACTLY where John last saw it: In the throne room in heaven.

Next, John saw the 24 elders he saw in chapter 4. Next, he saw the four beasts he saw in chapter 4. Where was John when He saw the throne room? "immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne." John then was IN THE THRONE ROOM when He saw what is written in chapter 4.

Since He is seeing the very same things, i.e. angels, throne, elders, and the four beasts, we can come to ONLY ONE conclusion: this great crowd too large to number are IN THE THRONE ROOM OF HEAVEN.

Good try, but you are just plain wrong. This is a picture of the raptured church IN HEAVEN, the very same place Jesus said He would go and prepare mansions for us. So, since your theory has been completely debunked, will you go back to Prophecy 101, take off your glasses, and start over? I guess you will have to rewrite your books too.

MAKE NO MISTAKE: this great crowd was seen by John IN THE THRONE ROOM OF HEAVEN.

keras · Nov 18, 2015

iamlamad said:
You seem to have a FIXATION against heaven for some reason! I hope you know all who have died in Christ are there NOW

You are wrong about this as well. I love the Lord and would love to be with Him in heaven, but the Bible never says that is our destiny. You constantly prove your inability to read all of scripture, you have a narrow perspective that only lets you see what suits your beliefs. This is the truth of death:
The dead know nothing: mortals die, they cannot rouse again: when humans breath their last breath, they return to the dust; it is our lot to die once and the Judgement follows. Job 14:10-12, Eccl. 9:5-6, Psalms 146:4, Hebrews 9:27
At the Great White Throne Judgement, all will face their Maker. Nowhere does the Bible even hint that people will live in heaven between death and the judgement.

iamlamad said:
First we take note that since chapter 4 John has NOT SEEN the throne move from heaven to earth and has not written such a thing. Therefore we conclude that in chapter 7 the throne is EXACTLY where John last saw it: In the throne room in heaven.

A false conclusion that violates the sequence of the end time events, where many prophesies state the Lord will gather His people into all of the holy Land. Ezekiel 36:8-12, 1 Corinthians 10:1-13
There is no mistake, scripture is clear; living in heaven isn't our destiny. But the promises of God to His righteous people are truly amazing and life in new Israel will be like heaven. Jeremiah 23:3-8, Jeremiah 32:37-41, Amos 9:13-15,

iamlamad · Nov 19, 2015

keras said:
You are wrong about this as well. I love the Lord and would love to be with Him in heaven, but the Bible never says that is our destiny. You constantly prove your inability to read all of scripture, you have a narrow perspective that only lets you see what suits your beliefs. This is the truth of death:
The dead know nothing: mortals die, they cannot rouse again: when humans breath their last breath, they return to the dust; it is our lot to die once and the Judgement follows. Job 14:10-12, Eccl. 9:5-6, Psalms 146:4, Hebrews 9:27
At the Great White Throne Judgement, all will face their Maker. Nowhere does the Bible even hint that people will live in heaven between death and the judgement.

A false conclusion that violates the sequence of the end time events, where many prophesies state the Lord will gather His people into all of the holy Land. Ezekiel 36:8-12, 1 Corinthians 10:1-13
There is no mistake, scripture is clear; living in heaven isn't our destiny. But the promises of God to His righteous people are truly amazing and life in new Israel will be like heaven. Jeremiah 23:3-8, Jeremiah 32:37-41, Amos 9:13-15,

"You constantly prove your inability to read all of scripture, you have a narrow perspective that only lets you see what suits your beliefs." I believe this quote belongs to you. Please allow me to help you here: since God is a self revealing God and over time we know more and more about both Him and the human condition, wise men of the past have said that ANY scripture from the Old Testament must be filtered through the New. This idea of "soul sleep" is a belief of cults, but not the church. Paul wrote that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Jesus Himself said that the thief on the cross would be with Him in Paradise. Jesus told the story of the rich man and Lazarus: you would do well to begin believing what the bible really says about death. The rich man was VERY MUCH alive and in torment. Time after time Jesus spoke of hell being a place of torment, as in "where the worm dieth not," and there will be "weeping and gnashing of teeth."

By now there are MANY - that means not a few - that have gone to heaven and came back to tell about it. Others have been taken to hell to see the torment first hand - and came back to tell about it. You would do well to believe what they say, for what they say is just what the bible tells us.

It seems many of your beliefs fall far outside of the norm of Christian beliefs. If I could make a suggestion, it would be to dump everything into file 13 and start over. Perhaps the best place to start would be Acts 1 and 2. You cannot skip over these two chapters and hope to live a normal Christian life.

A false conclusion that violates the sequence of the end time events, where many prophesies state the Lord will gather His people into all of the holy Land. Ezekiel 36:8-12, 1 Corinthians 10:1-13

WAKE UP! You must learn to read the CONTEXT of a scripture. 1 Cor. 10 is about the FATHERS who "were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea" and all ate mana. This passage tells us NOTHING that you are trying to say it does. It is an admonition for us to NOT follow their example. They all died in the wilderness. Surely you know that Ezekiel was a JEWISH prophet. His prophecies were for and about ISRAEL, not the Gentile church of today.

I am truly amazed, Keras, that anyone in this day and age where we have SO MUCH we can study from, can be so wrong about their beliefs. YOu really do need to camp out on Acts 1 and 2 for a few months.

vinsight4u · Nov 21, 2015

iamlamad · Nov 21, 2015

vinsight4u said:
Revelation 7:2

Revelation 14:6

Revelation 18:1

Don't overlook what John means when he writes this word. "another"

Remember, Rev. 7 says- till we have sealed

Another simply means NOT THE SAME ONE.

vinsight4u · Nov 21, 2015

vinsight4u · Nov 21, 2015

vinsight4u · Nov 21, 2015

The Greater Exodus than isnt taught, but the Rapture is.

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