stuart lawrence
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You think Jesus would be happy if someone said Paul taught a false Gospel? Jesus taught love, you are right, but he also spoke sternly to religious people who rejected the truth
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True Justification, works of the Law of Moses, & Conditional Security
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EmSw
White Horse Rider
Are you saying Deuteronomy 6:25 is not the truth?
Here is what Paul said -
Romans 3:20
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law. Rom 3:20
Here is what Moses said -
Deuteronomy 6:25
Then it will be righteousness for us, if we are careful to observe all these commandments before the Lord our God, as He has commanded us.
Nothing is said of keeping it perfectly. You added this.
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stuart lawrence
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For whoever keeps the whole law and stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it janes2:10
Who kept ALL of the law as per your quote? NO ONE.
If anyone could have perfectly kept the whole law there would have been no need for Jesus to die at Calvary
I told you it would be considered their righteousness. As David said, no one living was righteous before God. Will you say David is wrong as well as Paul?
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stuart lawrence
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You reject the truth, for like dome others in this debate you cannot see beyond the literal letter to the spiritual message Tha letter contains, as the Pharisees could not either
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expos4ever
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Stop bearing false witness. I answered your question and you know it. The fact that you do not like my answer is a different matter. Now please answer my question:
What does Paul mean here?:
6God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
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stuart lawrence
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I am not bearing false witness at all.
I refer you to my previous response to this question
BTW I will give you a clue. You are using the wrong verses to try and make a point!
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stuart lawrence
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This is a fundamentalist forum isn't it? Only I doubt ensw will be allowed on such a forum to openly state Paul taught a false message
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stuart lawrence
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I'll give you a chance to answer the question according to rom 10:4
If Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness a christian cannot be made unrighteous in Gods sight concerning their imperfections where the law is concerned(their sin) can they. Such a thing is not possible. Therefore, if a christian cannot be made unrighteous in Gods sight for their imperfections concerning his laws(their sin) Christ MUST have died for all the christians sins at Calvary, past, present and future-correct?
I am expecting silence, or deflection in response!
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expos4ever
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Consider this passage from Romans 9:
What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even (BI)the righteousness which is by faith; 31but Israel, (BJ)pursuing a law of righteousness, did not (BK)arrive at that law. 32Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over (BL)the stumbling stone,
Here, Paul uses the term "works" in verse 32. Is he referring to "good works" or to "works of the Law of Moses"?
While a "good works" reading may fit better with received reformed tradition, the "works of the Law of Moses" reading works much better with the context. In the preceding verses, Paul has argued that Gentiles are to be now included in the family of God. The line of reasoning is the same as in relation to Ephesians 2 - Paul is clearly focusing on the fact that the family of God is to be understood as not exclusive to Jews. And what is the boundary marker between Jews and Gentiles? Good works? No - works of the Law of Moses.
Paul is not saying (in this Romans 9 text) that Jews "stumbled" because they tried to "get saved by doing good works". That is an anachronistic projection of a 17th century issue into Paul's time - the Jews of Paul's day were not "pelegians", they believed their status as members of God's family was theirs by birthright.
No. Paul is saying that the Jews stumbled because they believed that they had an ethnically grounded right to membership in God's family. And although this is sometimes lost in 21st western thinking that does not respect the specifics of Palestinian culture of the times, it was the Law of Moses that functioned to demarcate the 1st century Jew from his pagan neighbour.
And this line of reasoning is significantly bolstered by this statement, dictated a few short breaths later by Paul:
Brethren, my heart's desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation.
2For I testify about them that they have (A)a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3For not knowing about (B)God's righteousness and (C)seeking to establish their own
The "them" in verse 1 is clearly national Israel. And what is Paul saying? That they were seeking salvation that was limited to Jews - their "own" salvation. This take on this text is further strengthened by what Paul goes on to say:
For (P)there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is (Q)Lord of (R)all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;
This is an ethnic argument, not a "good works" one. The whole context of the latter half Romans 9 through the first half of 10 is dealing with the Jew - Gentile division, not "good works".
So when Paul declares that Christ is the end of the law for righteousness, he is not in away commenting on the relationship between good works and being declared righteous, he is saying that the time for seeing the Law of Moses as enabling only the Jew to be seen as righteous has come to an end.
What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even (BI)the righteousness which is by faith; 31but Israel, (BJ)pursuing a law of righteousness, did not (BK)arrive at that law. 32Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over (BL)the stumbling stone,
Here, Paul uses the term "works" in verse 32. Is he referring to "good works" or to "works of the Law of Moses"?
While a "good works" reading may fit better with received reformed tradition, the "works of the Law of Moses" reading works much better with the context. In the preceding verses, Paul has argued that Gentiles are to be now included in the family of God. The line of reasoning is the same as in relation to Ephesians 2 - Paul is clearly focusing on the fact that the family of God is to be understood as not exclusive to Jews. And what is the boundary marker between Jews and Gentiles? Good works? No - works of the Law of Moses.
Paul is not saying (in this Romans 9 text) that Jews "stumbled" because they tried to "get saved by doing good works". That is an anachronistic projection of a 17th century issue into Paul's time - the Jews of Paul's day were not "pelegians", they believed their status as members of God's family was theirs by birthright.
No. Paul is saying that the Jews stumbled because they believed that they had an ethnically grounded right to membership in God's family. And although this is sometimes lost in 21st western thinking that does not respect the specifics of Palestinian culture of the times, it was the Law of Moses that functioned to demarcate the 1st century Jew from his pagan neighbour.
And this line of reasoning is significantly bolstered by this statement, dictated a few short breaths later by Paul:
Brethren, my heart's desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation.
2For I testify about them that they have (A)a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3For not knowing about (B)God's righteousness and (C)seeking to establish their own
The "them" in verse 1 is clearly national Israel. And what is Paul saying? That they were seeking salvation that was limited to Jews - their "own" salvation. This take on this text is further strengthened by what Paul goes on to say:
For (P)there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is (Q)Lord of (R)all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;
This is an ethnic argument, not a "good works" one. The whole context of the latter half Romans 9 through the first half of 10 is dealing with the Jew - Gentile division, not "good works".
So when Paul declares that Christ is the end of the law for righteousness, he is not in away commenting on the relationship between good works and being declared righteous, he is saying that the time for seeing the Law of Moses as enabling only the Jew to be seen as righteous has come to an end.
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expos4ever
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Welcome to the club. We both have answered an exceedingly vague question.
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EmSw
White Horse Rider
Then who are these 'righteous' people? Are they some aliens from another world?
Psalm 37:25
I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread.
Psalm 69:28
Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.
Psalm 125:3
For the rod of the wicked shall not rest upon the lot of the righteous; lest the righteous put forth their hands unto iniquity.
Proverbs 10:3
The Lord will not suffer the soul of the righteous to famish: but he casteth away the substance of the wicked.
Proverbs 21:26
He coveteth greedily all the day long: but the righteous giveth and spareth not.
Proverbs 29:7
The righteous considereth the cause of the poor: but the wicked regardeth not to know it.
Ecclesiastes 9:1
For all this I considered in my heart even to declare all this, that the righteous, and the wise, and their works, are in the hand of God: no man knoweth either love or hatred by all that is before them.
Isaiah 57:1
The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come.
Ezekiel 3:20
Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die.
Ezekiel 13:22
Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad;
Who are all these 'righteous' people? How was one righteous in the Old Testament? Do you know? The answer is in Deuteronomy 6:25 -
Then it will be righteousness for us, if we are careful to observe all these commandments before the Lord our God, as He has commanded us.
I would say plenty of 'righteous' people observed the law.
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expos4ever
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What does Paul mean here?:
6God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
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stuart lawrence
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I have given you the opportunity to respond to my question according to rom 10:4. You are wrong in your conclusion in the above. Respond to my post on rom10:4 and i will answer your passage
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stuart lawrence
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You need to understand the spiritual reality. If anyone could be TRULY righteous before God according to obedience to the law Christ need not have died at Calvary for our sins.
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expos4ever
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What does Paul mean here?:
6God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
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expos4ever
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I answered your question.
What does Paul mean here?:
6God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
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expos4ever
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This, of course, is why he cannot deal with Romans 2:6-7.
That text declares as clearly as possible that eternal life is awarded based on an examination of how we have actually lived.
This contradicts his view, so, of course, he ignores the question on the clearly false pretext that his question has not been answered. It has - and clearly so. He may not like the answer, but answered it surely has been.
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