Why do people believe in a Rapture?

BABerean2 said:

You may want to read the New Testament (Covenant) sometime and use it to interpret the Old Testament, instead of the other way around.

Heb_7:27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

Heb_9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Heb_10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Joh 19:30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.

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I guess you have torn the last few chapters of Ezekiel out of your bible.
I guess you ignore the fact that a new temple will be built: Ezekiel's temple, for Christ to reign in the millennium.
I guess you ignore the fact that there will be new temple for the man of sin to abominate in.
I guess you ignore the fact that when he does, the daily sacrifices will be stopped.
In fact, you just ignore a LOT of verses.

parousia70 said:

Did you at least recycle the Book of Hebrews when you ripped it out of your Bible or did you simply throw it in the trash?

To believe and teach that the Glorified Christ will one day sit on a physical throne in Jerusalem and require Human beings to be physically circumcised, and render blood animal sacrifices directly to Him for atonement of their sins and acceptance by Him is an anathema according to apostolic teaching.. it is a falling away from the grace of Christ and renders His once for all sacrifice on the cross null and void.

Such teaching is untenable to this Christian, and should be for all Christians, for it was demonstrably untenable to Christ and the apostles.

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This is a classic example of cherry picking certain scriptures to fit a theory, while ignoring others. Perhaps you should just camp out on the last few chapters of Ezekiel for a year or two. You might get to believing them.

BABerean2 said:

You mean that Jesus will rule over a world where sin and death remain for 1,000 years after His Second Coming???


Is the Gog Magog War the Battle of Armageddon ?

http://www.herealittletherealittle.net/index.cfm?page_name=Gog

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You really should begin to BELIEVE in the thousand years. When you believe what is written about the 1000 years, you would not have to ask such a question.

Short Timer said:

When God shut the door on the ark, mercy cease to exist for anyone outside the ark, "NO FLESH" survived.

Scripture describes the trib as the "hour" of temptation, and God is "Silence" for a "half hour", or the last half of the trib.

Sacrifices are made, two witnesses minister during the first half, but when this spirit from hell come, he kills the two witnesses, stops the sacrifices, and God is silence, and as scripture say, this AC has complete power over the whole earth, and God being silence, won't intervene to stop him from killing "ALL FLESH",

Jesus returning is the only reason some do survive.

Just as there was no escaping the flood outside the ark, there's won't be any escaping the AC during the trib.

Re 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

This world will belong to Satan/AC until the 42 months are finished, and the AC is not finished until Jesus destroys him with the "Brightness of his coming", and chains up Satan.

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You did OK until you mentioned the two witnesses. Please take note:

42 months of trampling
1260 days of witnessing
1260 days of fleeing and feeding
time, times and half of time
42 months of authority

ALL THESE ARE PARALLEL TIMES for the last half of the week. Please note that the destroyer spirit that comes up from the bottomless pit when it is unlocked is the very same spirit that will posses the man of sin right after the abomination - and the man of sin will turn into the Antichrist Beast. He will not at first be able to kill the two witnesses, for they will have just started their testimony. However, late in the week, when their 1260 days are up, THEN they will be killed, lay dead for 3 1/2 days, and rise up at the 7th vial that ends the week. That is when all the Old Covenant people rise from the grave: the 7th vial.

Take note that the 42 months count for trampling will begin just before the 1260 days of witnessing, and the 1260 days of witnessing will begin 3 1/2 days before the 1260 days of fleeing. The 42 months of authority will begin last and end last.

Short Timer said:

Very convenient that you left out what the fulness of the gentiles means to the blindness of Israel.

Ro 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Want to explain the relationship between the blindness of Israel and the Gentiles???

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Many translations say "full number." God gave the leaders of Israel plenty of time to accept Him as their Messiah, first from His own words, then by the apostles. They rejected Him with prejudice. They sealed their fate in hell. God then, fed up with the hardness of heart of Israel, allowed blindness to come, and turned to the Gentiles. There is a parable about this.

parousia70 said:

"FULLNESS" OF THE GENTLES: A DEFINITION

The "FULNESS" of the gentiles is incorrectly translated "full number" in a couple translations, reflecting a futurist slant and leading many bible readers to flawed conclusions. The text doesn't say "number" at all.

The "fullness of the gentiles" (also: "fulness of the nations") can be understood as the same "FULNESS" as used in its other N.T. citations such as in John 1:16, Eph 3:19, and Col 1:19 (Greek = "pleroma"). This fulness, properly understood, is the fulness that came to the gentiles in the first century by being grafted into the pure Olive Tree of true Israel -- that is, the gentiles as a body were becoming partakers in the "pleroma" ("fulness") of the Abrahamic/Christic blessing. They were granted full sonship and inheritance as described in Ephesians chapter 3:1-21. This FULNESS, "pleroma", as in John 1:16, came to the gentiles via Paul's ministry (Acts 26:17-19; Rom 15:16; Eph 3:1-21). By reading the Eph 3:1-21 account in total we get the broad scope of Paul's work to deliver the full inheritance and riches to the gentiles via his ministry "that they might be filled with ALL THE PLEROMA ("fulness") of God" -- Eph 3:19.

The "fulness of the gentiles" cam in no later than the end of Paul's Ministry. We are not still waiting for Gentile Fulness to occur.

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Correction: MANY translations. And I disagree. We are STILL WAITING, simply because the rapture has not come yet. When it comes, we will know that the fullness of the Gentiles will have come in. God is still calling in Gentiles...but time is VERY short.

iamlamad said:

I guess you have torn the last few chapters of Ezekiel out of your bible.
I guess you ignore the fact that a new temple will be built: Ezekiel's temple, for Christ to reign in the millennium.
I guess you ignore the fact that there will be new temple for the man of sin to abominate in.
I guess you ignore the fact that when he does, the daily sacrifices will be stopped.
In fact, you just ignore a LOT of verses.

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"I guess you ignore the fact that a new temple will be built: Ezekiel's temple, for Christ to reign in the millennium."
Christ is the temple in the New Covenant, as well as those who have the Holy Spirit inside of us.



Joh 2:19 Jesus answered and said to them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."


Joh 2:20 Then the Jews said, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?"


Joh 2:21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body.


1Co_6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?



"I guess you ignore the fact that there will be new temple for the man of sin to abominate in."
Since the New Covenant temple is Christ and His Church, this man of sin would be a pretender inside the Church.

"I guess you ignore the fact that when he does, the daily sacrifices will be stopped."
The sacrifices were stopped in the Jewish temple during 167 BC by Antiochus.
The sacrifices were no longer accepted in the 2nd temple after the veil was torn on the day of Christ's sacrifice.
Are you going to sew the veil back together again?


Mat_27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

Mar_15:38 And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.


Luk_23:45 And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.

"In fact, you just ignore a LOT of verses."

Someone is certainly ignoring a LOT of verses in the New Covenant, in order to make John Darby's doctrine work.

.

BABerean2 said:

Joh 2:21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body.

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We seem to have an anomaly of scripture here.
BaB says there won't be another Temple because Jesus is the Temple.
I and Lamad, plus many others say: prophecy dictates that there will be a Third Temple built.
But there is no anomaly, scripture does not contract itself! The simple answer is that for this period of the Church age, there is no physical Temple, so the 'body' of Jesus, that is: all the righteous believer in Him, constitute the spiritual Temple. This truth doesn't preclude a physical Temple being built in the last days, one that Jesus will physically Return into.

BABerean2 said in post 3369:

Da 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

(This is the time between the time that Antiochus stopped the Jews from doing their normal sacrifices until he set up a statue of himself in the Jewish temple during 167 BC. It happened over 2,000 years ago.)

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Regarding the "abomination of desolation", Daniel 11:31 was typically fulfilled by the abomination of desolation in 1 Maccabees 1:54, which occurred in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 2nd Jewish temple in Jerusalem in the time of Antiochus IV. But per Jesus' statement in Matthew 24:15, the church will see the abomination of desolation in Daniel 11:31 fulfilled (antitypically) in the future, when the church will see the abomination of desolation stand in the holy place (of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem). This future abomination of desolation could be a standing, android image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:15) which his followers ("they") will put in the holy place of the temple (Daniel 11:31) to be worshipped (Revelation 13:15), after they have stopped the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices which the ultra-Orthodox Jews will have restarted in front of the temple (Daniel 11:31). This image will pollute the holy place of the temple (Daniel 11:31).

The Antichrist will then fulfill Daniel 11:36 and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 by sitting himself (at least one time) in the temple and proclaiming himself God. By the power of Satan (the dragon, Revelation 12:9), the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will then rule and be worshipped by all the nations of the earth for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:4-18), and will physically overcome Biblical Christians (not in hiding) in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Also, from the day on which (antitypically) "the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be 1,290 days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the 1,335 days" (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). Also, because the Antichrist will fulfill Daniel 11:31 antitypically (Matthew 24:15) and will fulfill Daniel 11:36 for the first (and only) time, then he will also fulfill all of Daniel 11:21-45 (the first part of it antitypically, and the rest for the first and only time) when he arises on the world stage, for that passage refers to the career of the same man. And since the Antichrist will fulfill all of Daniel 11:21-45 when he arises on the world stage, then just preceding his arising on the world stage, Daniel 11:13-19 could be fulfilled antitypically by an Iraqi Baathist General completely defeating and occupying Israel and Egypt with a huge Iraqi Army (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17 the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath").

BABerean2 said in post 3369:

Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

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Note that Luke 21:20-24 wasn't fulfilled by Titus's armies in 70 AD, for Luke 21:24 refers to the same, future treading down underfoot (i.e. not merely an outside siege) of Jerusalem by the Gentiles as Revelation 11:2b, during the Antichrist's future, literal (and never fulfilled) 42-month worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18).

That is, the treading down of Jerusalem during the "times" (Greek: kairos: G2540) of the Gentiles in Luke 21:24 refers to what will occur during certain years in our future, the same "times" (kairos: G2540), or years, referred to in Revelation 12:14b, during which the Gentiles will tread down Jerusalem as part of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 11:2b, Revelation 13:5-18), during the 2nd half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

Similarly, when Paul says "until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in" (Romans 11:25), he means until a full number of genetic Gentile individuals have become saved, which won't happen until near the end of the tribulation, right before Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming (Romans 11:26).

BABerean2 said in post 3369:

Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

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Regarding "Judaea", note that this doesn't have to mean 1st century AD Judaea. For there are many churches in Judaea (southern Israel) still today. They contain mostly Gentile believers, not just Jewish believers. The church began and has always been in Judaea: "Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea" (Acts 9:31); "the churches of Judaea" (Galatians 1:22); "the churches... in Judaea" (1 Thessalonians 2:14). Matthew 24:16 refers to those in the church, both Gentiles and Jews, who will be living in Judaea at the future point in time when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31).

The Antichrist's persecution of the church could begin in Jerusalem and Judaea right after the abomination of desolation is set up, and the Antichrist himself sits in the temple (at least one time) and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). So to avoid this persecution (cf. Matthew 10:23a), those in the church living in Judaea should flee immediately after they see the abomination of desolation set up (Matthew 24:15-16), which event could occur at the midpoint of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and which event could mark the start of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18). Eventually, the Antichrist's persecution of the church will reach every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), so that the basic principle of Matthew 24:16, of fleeing (the Antichrist's persecution), would apply to believers around the world.

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BABerean2 said in post 3433:

Is the Gog Magog War the Battle of Armageddon ?

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No. For Revelation 19:19-21 on the one hand, and Revelation 20:7-9 and Ezekiel chapters 38-39 on the other, are 2 different events, separated by over 1,000 years (Revelation 19:19 to 20:9). After the first event, Satan will be bound in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-3), while after the 2nd event, he will be cast into the lake of fire to suffer forever (Revelation 20:10).

Revelation 19:19-21 is the battle at Jesus' 2nd coming, which Zechariah 14:2-5 shows will occur at Jerusalem. After that battle will occur Jesus' physical reign on the earth (Zechariah 14:9-21) with the physically resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). It won't be until after the 1,000 years that the Gog/Magog rebellion will occur (Revelation 20:7-9, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

iamlamad said in post 3370:

You have to imagine a gathering in Rev. 19 there is not there.

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Note that Revelation 19 is Jesus' 2nd coming, which is when other passages show he will rapture (gather together) the church (Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 will be immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31). At Jesus' 2nd coming, before he goes to war (Revelation 19:11-21), he will rapture (gather together) the church (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31), judge the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; 2 Corinthians 5:10, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:14-30), and marry the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-13).

iamlamad said in post 3370:

You have to ignore very clear passages about His wrath.

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Note that 1 Thessalonians 5:9, for example, refers only to that wrath which is opposed to salvation, which is God's wrath (John 3:36). Even obedient saved people can suffer the wrath of Satan, which doesn't affect their salvation (Revelation 12:17, Revelation 2:10). For even if they are killed by Satan, this is no loss for them, but gain, for it brings their still-conscious souls into heaven to be with Jesus (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8). Also, 1 Thessalonians 5:9a applies to anyone who obtains salvation (1 Thessalonians 5:9b), and no matter whether they live or die (1 Thessalonians 5:10).

Also, note that nothing requires that the entire future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 will be God's wrath, or that any part of the tribulation that will be his wrath will be directed against any of the saved people (1 Thessalonians 5:9) who will still be alive on the earth at that time (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Most of the tribulation could be only Satan's wrath working through evil people and natural forces to bring disaster on the earth, like when Satan was allowed to work through evil people and natural forces to bring disaster on righteous Job (Job 1:12-20), against whom God had no wrath.

The tribulation's first 5 seals (Revelation 6:1-11) won't be God's wrath or judgment, for after the first 4 seals, the martyrs of the 5th seal ask God when he is going to bring his judgment against the world (Revelation 6:10). And the killing of even more martyrs, which the 5th seal foretells will happen sometime after the 5th seal (Revelation 6:11), won't be God's wrath against those martyrs. So Jesus' unsealing of the seals (Revelation 6), the tribulation's first stage, doesn't mean the events unsealed will be God's wrath, but that they will be permitted by God to happen at that time.

The tribulation's 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-14) will happen sometime before the day of the Lord (Joel 2:31, Revelation 6:12), as in only a few years before. The day of the Lord itself won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't happen until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). Similarly, the day of the Lord's wrath (Psalms 110:5) won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19-21).

So the people quoted at the 6th seal (Revelation 6:17), during only the first stage of the tribulation, could be just as mistaken as Job was when Job said that what was happening to him was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11). Just as what was happening to Job was actually Satan's wrath against him, not God's wrath, so the 6th seal could actually be Satan's wrath, not God's wrath. And just as the writer of the book of Job didn't go out of his way to correct Job's mistaken statement in Job 19:11, and just as the apostles John and Matthew didn't go out of their way to correct the mistaken statements of the people they quoted in John 7:12b and Matthew 27:63a, so the apostle John could have not gone out of his way to correct the statement of the people he quoted in Revelation 6:17.

After the tribulation's 6th seal will occur its 7th seal (Revelation 8:1), out of which will come its 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-2). Note that nothing requires that any of the first 6 trumpets' events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will be God's wrath. The 5th trumpet's events will be the work of strange locust-like beings from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:2-10), led by a fallen angel from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:11). And the 6th trumpet's events to the end of Revelation 9 will be the work of weird horse-like beings led by 4 fallen angels previously bound at the Euphrates (Revelation 9:14-19). So even though good angels of God will sound the first 6 trumpets, this could be announcing God's allowing the wrath of Satan to destroy 1/3 of different things (Revelation 8:7-12, Revelation 9:15,18), just as Satan will subsequently, mid-tribulation, be allowed by God to cause 1/3 of the angels (i.e. his fallen angels) to be cast down to the earth permanently (Revelation 12:4,9).

Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will happen before the Antichrist's (the individual-man aspect of the beast's) future, literal 3.5-year worldwide Luciferian/Satanic reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). And the events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 could be used by Satan to help prepare the world to welcome that reign. For what he could do is first take great pleasure in causing the destruction in each event, but then claim that the destruction isn't from him, but from YHWH, and that YHWH is a cruel tyrant god who hates mankind and only wants to make it suffer, while he (Satan, as "Lucifer") only wants the best for mankind (cf. Mark 8:33b). In this way, he could deceive the world into turning away from YHWH and instead worshipping him (the dragon) and the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). The Antichrist will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36).

After the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year reign (Revelation 13:5-7) is declared legally over at the sounding of the tribulation's 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the 7 plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath will come out of the heavenly-temple opening of the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1). The vials will then be poured out on the Antichrist's followers as God's judgment for their receiving the Antichrist's mark and worshipping his image (Revelation 16:2), and for their killing of people in the church (Revelation 16:6-7, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

During the Antichrist's worldwide reign, people in the church will be hated and killed in every nation for refusing to renounce the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the witness of Jesus Christ (Revelation 20:4), for refusing to accept the antichrist lies that Jesus himself isn't the Christ (1 John 2:22), and that Christ himself isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the sound doctrine of the Bible, the Word of God (Revelation 20:4; 2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4), for refusing to depart from the Biblical faith and to give heed instead to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils (1 Timothy 4:1-2). They will be beheaded for refusing to worship the Antichrist's image (Revelation 20:4, Revelation 13:15). And all of this will be Satan's wrath against the church (Revelation 12:17), not God's wrath, for the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

Even when God's wrath comes in the 7 vials (Revelation 16), the tribulation's final stage, because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), none of the vials will be directed at any of those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have prepared for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had prepared for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:11,13).

Jesus will return right after the 7th-and-last vial is completed (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21, Matthew 24:29-30), and he will bring the 2nd-coming wrath of God on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:15-21). But before that 2nd-coming wrath begins, the church will be caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

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iamlamad said in post 3376:

Next, a general resurrection at Jesus coming in Rev. 19 is not shown there . . .

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Note that the 2nd-coming resurrected church (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16) is mentioned in Revelation 20:4-6, just as the 2nd-coming married church is mentioned in Revelation 19:7.

Short Timer said in post 3378:

With no flesh surviving except Jesus does return, the AC would have "Prevailed" over killed most of the "Body of Christ" (church) by the end of the trib,

something Jesus said was "impossible", and since no flesh is protected, "WHERE" is the church during this time frame????

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Revelation 13:7-10 shows that the Antichrist, during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10), will be allowed to physically overcome Biblical Christians in every nation (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 14:12-13, Matthew 24:9-13), just as, for example, the Roman emperors and Satan were allowed to physically overcome some Biblical Christians in the 1st century AD (e.g. Revelation 2:10). There are no Biblical Christians outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

But Revelation 13:7-10 doesn't mean that every person in the church will be overcome by the Antichrist. For some in the church will be in God-protected wilderness places (Revelation 12:6, Revelation 12:14-16), and so they will still be "alive and remain" on the earth at Jesus' 2nd coming to be raptured (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), immediately after the tribulation (Mark 13:24-27; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

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Short Timer said in post 3382:

Paul revealed a "Mystery" coming called the rapture that is not the second coming.

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Note that Paul didn't call the rapture-coming itself a mystery in 1 Corinthians 15:51, for Jesus had already clearly taught the rapture-coming in the Gospels (John 14:3b, Matthew 24:30-31, Mark 13:26-27, cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:1). Instead, the mystery explained in 1 Corinthians 15:51-55 (cf. John 11:26) is the instantaneous changing of living believers into immortal physical bodies, at the same, 2nd-coming time that the bodies of dead believers will be resurrected from their graves into immortal physical bodies (1 Corinthians 15:51-55; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23, Romans 8:23-25). It is only after this 2nd-coming resurrection and changing that the rapture (the catching up together/gathering together) of all believers will occur (1 Thessalonians 4:16b-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31, John 14:3b).

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Short Timer said in post 3393:

The "Last trump" of the ghost will rapture the church . . .

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The "last trump" (1 Corinthians 15:52) is the trumpet which will sound after the tribulation (Matthew 24:31).

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Short Timer said in post 3417:

. . . God going back to dealing with Israel under the "law" . . .

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Note that nothing in the Bible says or requires that God will ever go back to the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. For it was completely and forever abolished, for both Jews and Gentiles, on the Cross (Ephesians 2:15-16).

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Short Timer said in post 3432:

Scripture describes the trib as the "hour" of temptation . . .

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The 7 epistles to 7 churches in Revelation chapters 2-3 were sent to 7 literal, 1st century AD local church congregations in 7 cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) (what is today western Turkey).

Revelation 3:10 meant that the literal, 1st century AD local church congregation in the city of Philadelphia (Revelation 3:7) in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) would be kept safe from a persecution which came upon all the Roman world during the time of the Roman emperor Domitian. For the apostle John saw his Revelation vision (Revelation 1:1) near the end of Domitian's reign (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c), and Domitian persecuted the church toward the end of his reign. The righteous, literal, 1st century AD local church congregation in the city of Smyrna (Revelation 2:8) in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) had to suffer and die in that persecution over a period of 10 literal days (Revelation 2:10).

The 1st century AD church in Philadelphia didn't have to be taken out of the world to be kept safe from (Greek: "ek") that persecution. For, as Jesus prayed for the church in general: "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from (ek) the evil" (John 17:15,20). Also, the 1st century AD church in Philadelphia didn't have to be removed from time itself or from the earth in order to be kept from the "hour" (or the "time") of that persecution, just as, for example, a student in a classroom who has been excused from taking a test doesn't have to be removed from time itself or from the classroom in order to be excused from that time of testing. For he can be made to sit at his desk reading during that time, which won't be a time of testing for him.

Also, the 1st century AD persecution of Revelation 3:10 (and Revelation 2:10) was only "world"-wide in the sense of the Roman "world" (cf. Luke 2:1). So the subsequent reference to those on the "earth" in Revelation 3:10 should be understood as those Christians living on the earth during that time in the Roman empire, as opposed to those Christians who had already died and gone to heaven (cf. 2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23).

Short Timer said in post 3432:

. . . .and God is "Silence" for a "half hour", or the last half of the trib.

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Note that the 7th seal silence in heaven for 30 literal minutes will happen before the 7 trumpets are handed out and begin to sound (Revelation 8:1-7).

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Short Timer said in post 3435:

Eze 46 . . .
2 And the prince shall enter by the way of the porch of that gate without, and shall stand by the post of the gate, and the priests shall prepare his burnt offering and his peace offerings, and he shall worship at the threshold of the gate: then he shall go forth; but the gate shall not be shut until the evening.

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Note that Ezekiel chapters 40 to 48 aren't necessarily a prophecy of future events which must happen, like those in Revelation must happen (Revelation 1:1), but could have been a conditional vision which Israel had to fulfill while it was still in Old Testament/Old Covenant times (Ezekiel 43:11). For the vision refers to animal sacrifices for sin (e.g. Ezekiel 43:21-22), which were abolished by Jesus on the Cross, along with all the rest of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Hebrews 7:18-19, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18). Jesus' New Covenant sacrifice for sin (Matthew 26:28) completely and forever replaced all the Old Covenant animal sacrifices for sin (Hebrews 10:1-23).

Nonetheless, when Jesus returns and begins his millennial reign on the earth (Revelation 20:4-6, Zechariah 14:3-21), he will still build a New Covenant, 4th temple building in Jerusalem; and New Covenant animal sacrifices will be offered in front of that temple (Zechariah 14:20-21, Zechariah 6:12-13). Instead of these sacrifices being for sin, they could be for thanksgiving (cf. Leviticus 22:29). Jesus could build that temple, and it could be operated according to the description in Ezekiel chapters 40 to 48, but leaving out the parts about animal sacrifices for sin. Another possibility is that New Covenant animal sacrifices for sin will be made, but only as a remembrance of Jesus' New Covenant sacrifice on the Cross for our sins (Matthew 26:28), like how communion is currently partaken of in remembrance of Jesus' sacrifice (Luke 22:19). The current practice of communion could cease at Jesus' return (1 Corinthians 11:26).

Also, after the millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15), when the literal city of New Jerusalem will land on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-3), there will no longer be any temple building (Revelation 21:22).

If Ezekiel chapters 40 to 48 are a prophecy of future events, and weren't only a conditional vision which now will never be fulfilled, the sabbath and feasts (e.g. Ezekiel 46:4,9) won't be those of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, but a better version of them, under the New Covenant.

The rules in Ezekiel chapters 40 to 48 are different in detail from the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. For example, note all the differences in the details of the passover animal sacrifice requirements of Ezekiel 45:21-25 and those of Numbers 28:16-24.

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Short Timer said in post 3437:

Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

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Zechariah 14:16 refers to the future celebration of what will be a New Covenant form of the feast of tabernacles, not the feast of tabernacles of the forever-abolished letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Ephesians 2:15-16).

Postvieww said in post 3412:
Would love to hear your explanation for a description of the coming of the Lord in Rev. 14:14-20.

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Note that it is not a coming. Instead, Revelation 14:14-16 refers to Jesus sitting on a single cloud in the 3rd heaven and reaping into the 3rd heaven (beginning mid-tribulation) the souls of those in the church who will be killed (Revelation 14:13) by the Antichrist during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), which will be during the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. They will be killed for refusing to worship the Antichrist and his image, and refusing to receive his mark (Revelation 14:9-16, cf. Revelation 15:2, Revelation 20:4-6).

That is, Revelation 14:12-13 refers to Christians in our future being patient and faithful to the point of death in not worshipping the Antichrist and his image, and not receiving his mark, knowing that if they do those things, they will be punished by God with eternal suffering (Revelation 14:9-13). But if they refuse to do those things, if they are then killed by the Antichrist, their still-conscious souls will be reaped by Jesus into the 3rd heaven (Revelation 14:14-16, Revelation 15:2). And they will later be resurrected into physical immortality along with the rest of the obedient church (of all times) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-53, Revelation 20:4-6), immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Before Jesus returns, Revelation 14:19-20 can refer to the Antichrist's killing of non-Christians who won't worship him (such as radical Muslims, ultra-Orthodox Jews, hardcore atheists, etc.) being God's wrath against those non-Christians. Revelation 14:20 could refer to when they get beheaded by the Antichrist (say, with one blow of a sword, while they are kneeling), their blood will shoot up from their necks like a geyser as high as a horse's bridle. Also, in Revelation 14:20, the city could be Jerusalem, and the 1,600 furlongs is about 200 miles, so that Revelation 14:19-20 could mean the Antichrist's beheading of people who won't worship him will begin at Jerusalem and the surrounding region, when he sits (at least one time) in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36), and has the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the temple (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31).

But when the Antichrist beheads Christians for not worshipping him (Revelation 20:4), this won't be God's wrath against those Christians, but Satan's wrath against them (Revelation 12:17).

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Postvieww said in post 3414:

There is no coming anywhere in 1 Corin 15. If you find one please post the scripture reference so I can find it too.

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We are probably agreed that v. 23b is post-trib.

BABerean2 said:

You may want to read the New Testament (Covenant) sometime and use it to interpret the Old Testament, instead of the other way around.

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You might want to learn why sacrifices were made in the first place, animal or Jesus,

Heb 9:13 is a good place to start.

Bible2+ said:

Note that it is not a coming. Instead, Revelation 14:14-16 refers to Jesus sitting on a single cloud in the 3rd heaven and reaping into the 3rd heaven (beginning mid-tribulation) the souls of those in the church who will be killed (Revelation 14:13) by the Antichrist during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), which will be during the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. They will be killed for refusing to worship the Antichrist and his image, and refusing to receive his mark (Revelation 14:9-16, cf. Revelation 15:2, Revelation 20:4-6).

That is, Revelation 14:12-13 refers to Christians in our future being patient and faithful to the point of death in not worshipping the Antichrist and his image, and not receiving his mark, knowing that if they do those things, they will be punished by God with eternal suffering (Revelation 14:9-13). But if they refuse to do those things, if they are then killed by the Antichrist, their still-conscious souls will be reaped by Jesus into the 3rd heaven (Revelation 14:14-16, Revelation 15:2). And they will later be resurrected into physical immortality along with the rest of the obedient church (of all times) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-53, Revelation 20:4-6), immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Before Jesus returns, Revelation 14:19-20 can refer to the Antichrist's killing of non-Christians who won't worship him (such as radical Muslims, ultra-Orthodox Jews, hardcore atheists, etc.) being God's wrath against those non-Christians. Revelation 14:20 could refer to when they get beheaded by the Antichrist (say, with one blow of a sword, while they are kneeling), their blood will shoot up from their necks like a geyser as high as a horse's bridle. Also, in Revelation 14:20, the city could be Jerusalem, and the 1,600 furlongs is about 200 miles, so that Revelation 14:19-20 could mean the Antichrist's beheading of people who won't worship him will begin at Jerusalem and the surrounding region, when he sits (at least one time) in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36), and has the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the temple (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31).

But when the Antichrist beheads Christians for not worshipping him (Revelation 20:4), this won't be God's wrath against those Christians, but Satan's wrath against them (Revelation 12:17).

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We are probably agreed that v. 23b is post-trib.

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Bible2+ 3452 red

Note that it is not a coming. Instead, Revelation 14:14-16 refers to Jesus sitting on a single cloud in the 3rd heaven and reaping into the 3rd heaven (beginning mid-tribulation) the souls of those in the church who will be killed (Revelation 14:13) by the Antichrist during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), which will be during the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. They will be killed for refusing to worship the Antichrist and his image, and refusing to receive his mark (Revelation 14:9-16, cf. Revelation 15:2, Revelation 20:4-6).

Would you further explain how you arrived at this? It is my understanding that when a believer in Christ dies their spirit goes immediately into the presence of the Lord, 2 Corin. 5:8. Do not understand how those souls will be lingering around waiting to be reaped into the 3rd heaven. I believe in the past we have had differing opinions on the timing and order of the events in the book of Revelation.

Bible2+ said:

But Revelation 13:7-10 doesn't mean that every person in the church will be overcome by the Antichrist.

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I guess if Jesus didn't return some would survive anyway, Right???

Note that Paul didn't call the rapture-coming itself a mystery in 1 Corinthians 15:51, for Jesus had already clearly taught the rapture-coming in the Gospels (John 14:3b, Matthew 24:30-31, Mark 13:26-27, cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:1).

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You need to read the Bible and find out what it says and delete whatever site you're cutting/pasting from, I expect an error here and there, but not in every sentence.

People who know the scriptures, know there is as much differences between the time of the rapture and second coming as there is between day and night.

At the time of the rapture, sun is shining, people marrying/working in the fields,
At the time of the SC, dead from one end of the earth to the other, neither the sun or moon is shining.

God is not the author of confusions, that's Satan's department,

Truth is 100% truth, even a little leaven, leaven the whole, and what the "Spirit" teaches has no leaven.

God doesn't take to kindly to people who "profess to be wise" and teach confusion.

keras said:

The simple answer is that for this period of the Church age, there is no physical Temple, so the 'body' of Jesus, that is: all the righteous believer in Him, constitute the spiritual Temple. This truth doesn't preclude a physical Temple being built in the last days, one that Jesus will physically Return into.

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There is no doubt that the Talmudic Jews of modern Israel are planning to rebuild a temple and renew animal sacrifices. The Temple Institute in Jerusalem is now looking for a perfect Red Heifer to be used in the first step of purification. Men have already been selected as priests and their temple garments are now hanging in their closets.

They need to figure out how they are going to sew the veil back together, that God has torn in half.

If they do what they are now planning, it will be another rejection of God's Son.

The verse below is found near the time of the 7th trumpet.
Does it sound like a city that has gotten into a right relationship with God?

Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

If they rebuild a temple, it will be what is mentioned in the following verses.



Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
(All of Jacob's descendants are not included in Israel of the Promise.)

Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. (Gal 3:16, 29)




Rev_2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.


A rebuilt temple, with renewed animal sacrifices would be an abomination.

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iamlamad said:

You did OK until you mentioned the two witnesses. Please take note:

42 months of trampling
1260 days of witnessing
1260 days of fleeing and feeding
time, times and half of time
42 months of authority

ALL THESE ARE PARALLEL TIMES for the last half of the week. Please note that the destroyer spirit that comes up from the bottomless pit when it is unlocked is the very same spirit that will posses the man of sin right after the abomination - and the man of sin will turn into the Antichrist Beast. He will not at first be able to kill the two witnesses, for they will have just started their testimony. However, late in the week, when their 1260 days are up, THEN they will be killed, lay dead for 3 1/2 days, and rise up at the 7th vial that ends the week. That is when all the Old Covenant people rise from the grave: the 7th vial.

Take note that the 42 months count for trampling will begin just before the 1260 days of witnessing, and the 1260 days of witnessing will begin 3 1/2 days before the 1260 days of fleeing. The 42 months of authority will begin last and end last.

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From Abraham to Jesus was two thousand years, that was God/Israel, sacrifices, law and prophets, faith not required, evidence by signs and wonders,

which ended when Jesus came.

and from Jesus until the end of the church period will be two thousand years, Jesus/Gentiles (church) under Grace from the law, no signs and wonders, faith required

The trib is divided into two parts, the first is God/Israel, sacrifices, law and prophets (two witnesses) signs and wonders by both the two witnesses and false prophet, (calling fire down from heaven) some people believing the AC is the messiah.

Because of the way God dealt with Israel in the OT, Jews won't believe without signs and wonders and Jesus won't give any, that is the major thing that blinded Israel, with the fulness of the Gentiles/Rapture, and God going back to dealing with Israel during the trib and the two witnesses, the blinders come off of Israel,

Then this spirit from hell arrives, all that of the first part changes, the sacrifices are stopped, Two witnesses are stopped/killed, so are the signs and wonders they perform, ABOD takes place, and by God being silent/not intervening, the AC has free reign over the whole earth for 42 months, which he didn't have during the first half.

Without the two witnesses and their signs and wonder, God not intervening, Israel is again in the position of believing by faith without these signs and wonders as they are now.

Imagine the first half of the trib as being the OT and the last half as being the NT, as far as Israel is concerned.

Lu 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

BABerean2 said:

A rebuilt temple, with renewed animal sacrifices would be an abomination.

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The "law" says the wages of sin is death, so if the soul had to have a sacrifice to justify it to continue to live,

why wouldn't the flesh have to have a sacrifice to justify it to continue to live???

Heb 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. (of sins)

The Bible is a "book of laws", to understand it you have to understand "law".

iamlamad said:

Many translations say "full number." God gave the leaders of Israel plenty of time to accept Him as their Messiah, but from His own words, then by the apostles. They rejected Him with prejudice. They sealed their fate in hell. God then, fed up with the hardness of heart of Israel, allowed blindness to come, and turned to the Gentiles. There is a parable about this.

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Mt 16:1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven.

Joh 4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

1Co 1:22 For the Jews require a sign,

Mt 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it,

1Pe 2:7 Unto you therefore which......believe......he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

Jesus worked many "signs and wonders", but never any "On demand" to prove his "Divinity", which is what the Jews require to..."Believe",

And that "Blinded" the Jews.

And that is why the fulness of the Gentile, or church rapture and Jesus going back to heaven before God will start dealing with Israel again and give them the signs and wonders they require to remove the blinders, especially by the two witnesses.

Anyone with even an elementary knowledge of scripture knows that leadership by God/Jesus can't function at the same time, same time frame, the world can't be under the law/and not under the law (grace) at the same time.

And anyone with any knowledge whatsoever of the OT/NT, knows who is leading who just by the type of leadership being used.



Even wayfaring fools don't err when they get on the right path to understand.

Jer 6:16 Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.

Isa 35:8 And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein.

BABerean2 said:

"I guess you ignore the fact that a new temple will be built: Ezekiel's temple, for Christ to reign in the millennium."
Christ is the temple in the New Covenant, as well as those who have the Holy Spirit inside of us.



Joh 2:19 Jesus answered and said to them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."


Joh 2:20 Then the Jews said, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?"


Joh 2:21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body.


1Co_6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?



"I guess you ignore the fact that there will be new temple for the man of sin to abominate in."
Since the New Covenant temple is Christ and His Church, this man of sin would be a pretender inside the Church.

"I guess you ignore the fact that when he does, the daily sacrifices will be stopped."
The sacrifices were stopped in the Jewish temple during 167 BC by Antiochus.
The sacrifices were no longer accepted in the 2nd temple after the veil was torn on the day of Christ's sacrifice.
Are you going to sew the veil back together again?


Mat_27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

Mar_15:38 And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.


Luk_23:45 And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.

"In fact, you just ignore a LOT of verses."

Someone is certainly ignoring a LOT of verses in the New Covenant, in order to make John Darby's doctrine work.

.

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All these verses you quote are true. But SO IS EZEKIEL'S temple truth.
You can't "cherry pick" just the verses you like and ignore all the others.

This verse:
Eze. 46:4 And the burnt offering that the prince shall offer unto the Lord in the sabbath day shall be six lambs without blemish, and a ram without blemish.

Is just as true as this one:
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

People must form a doctrine that includes BOTH of these truths, or they will be in ERROR.