Luke 16:9 "when ye fail" or "when it fails"?

shakewell · Nov 2, 2015

Luke 16:9

And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations. KJV

And I say to you, make friends for yourselves by means of the mammon of unrighteousness; that when it fails, they may receive you into the eternal dwellings. NAS

Some versions say “when ye fail” and some say “when it fails”. When I look at the underlying Greek it only has words for “when” and “fail” (no “ye” or “it”).

Does anyone know what the different translators’ rationales might for translating it one way over another?

branchofthevine · Nov 2, 2015

In Greek most words, like nouns and verbs and adjectives, have the words 'you, he, she' embedded in the word itself in the form of its ending so it isn't surprising that you wouldn't find out the difference, especially if you're using Strong's because they just give you what the stem of the word means instead of what the inflected version of the word means. I'll use the word in question as an example, the stem of the word in Luke 16:9 that you're looking at is εκλειπω which means to fail, to cease, to come to an end. However, in Luke 16:9 εκλειπω doesn't appear, you do see either εκλιπητε or εκλιπη which is the inflected version, meaning it is the version of the word that has a specific aspect, tense, and mood. So in Luke 16:9 the word doesn't mean "to fail" but something like "you might fail/it might fail".

There is also a difference between textual manuscripts. The Byzantine textual tradition uses the word εκλιπητε which is a 2 Aorist Active Subjunctive verb 2person plural, meaning "you might fail" in context with the words ινα οταν it means "so that whenever you might fail.

Sinaiticus, and the Nestle-Aland text have the word εκλιπη which is a 2 Aorist Active Subjunctive verb 3 person singular which is "it might fail"

So that is why you are getting two different readings, the problem is what is verb referring too, and honestly it seems like a weird teaching, because it says "and I say to you, make for yourself friends from the wealth of unrighteousness so that whenever it/you might fail thy might receive you into the eternal tent"

Is it the wealth of unrighteousness that is going to fail you, or are you going to fail because you've made friends with the wealth of unrighteousness. In context of the following few verses in Luke it probably makes sense to translate it is as "it might fail" because of how the person is received into the eternal tent in v9, and how in v11 Jesus says "if, therefore, you are not trustworthy with dishonest wealth, who will trust you with true wealth?" It seems to point to the argument that "if you are trustworthy with wealth here on earth, which is unrighteous and might fail you, then you can be trustworthy with the wealth of God which is righteous and will never fail you" or something like that.

Shane R · Nov 2, 2015

The discrepancy is insignificant because the statement is rhetorical. The passage gives this conclusion:

“Whoever is faithful in a very little is faithful also in much; and whoever is dishonest in a very little is dishonest also in much. If then you have not been faithful with the dishonest wealth, who will entrust to you the true riches? And if you have not been faithful with what belongs to another, who will give you what is your own? No slave can serve two masters; for a slave will either hate the one and love the other, or be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth.” (Luke 16:10-13)

DamianWarS · Nov 4, 2015

The NASBs word in question is "ἐκλίπῃ" where the KJVs word in question is "ἐκλίπητε" which is the same root word but different affix.

The root word is: ἐκλείπω so comparing the verbs you see the NASB has the affix "-ῃ" and the KJV has the affix "-ητε". So what do these mean? "-ῃ" marks present tense-subjunctive-3rd person singular where "-ητε" marks present tense-subjunctive-2nd person plural.

The NASB translation is correct translating it "[when] it fails" while the KJV is also correct translating it "[when] ye fail" or the NKJV with the more modern translation of "[when] you fail". The difference falls under the greek base text these translations are using. The KJV (and NKJV) use the 1550 edition of the Textus Receptus and the NASB uses the 26th edition of Nestle-Aland’s Novum Testamentum Graece.

Although there is considerable debate as to which greek text is better most inconsistencies are much like this example where there are insignificant or no differences to the actual meaning of the text.

Gregory the NonTheologian · Nov 5, 2015

shakewell said:
And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations. KJV

And I say to you, make friends for yourselves by means of the mammon of unrighteousness; that when it fails, they may receive you into the eternal dwellings. NAS
googletag.cmd.push(function() { googletag.display('div-gpt-ad-1445020441508-1'); });
Some versions say “when ye fail” and some say “when it fails”. When I look at the underlying Greek it only has words for “when” and “fail” (no “ye” or “it”).

Does anyone know what the different translators’ rationales might for translating it one way over another?

branchofthevine said:
Is it the wealth of unrighteousness that is going to fail you, or are you going to fail because you've made friends with the wealth of unrighteousness. In context of the following few verses in Luke it probably makes sense to translate it is as "it might fail" because of how the person is received into the eternal tent in v9, and how in v11 Jesus says "if, therefore, you are not trustworthy with dishonest wealth, who will trust you with true wealth?" It seems to point to the argument that "if you are trustworthy with wealth here on earth, which is unrighteous and might fail you, then you can be trustworthy with the wealth of God which is righteous and will never fail you" or something like that.

DamianWarS said:
The NASBs word in question is "ἐκλίπῃ" where the KJVs word in question is "ἐκλίπητε" which is the same root word but different affix.

The root word is: ἐκλείπω so comparing the verbs you see the NASB has the affix "-ῃ" and the KJV has the affix "-ητε". So what do these mean? "-ῃ" marks present tense-subjunctive-3rd person singular where "-ητε" marks present tense-subjunctive-2nd person plural.

The NASB translation is correct translating it "[when] it fails" while the KJV is also correct translating it "[when] ye fail" or the NKJV with the more modern translation of "[when] you fail". The difference falls under the greek base text these translations are using. The KJV (and NKJV) use the 1550 edition of the Textus Receptus and the NASB uses the 26th edition of Nestle-Aland’s Novum Testamentum Graece.

Although there is considerable debate as to which greek text is better most inconsistencies are much like this example where there are insignificant or no differences to the actual meaning of the text.

There seem to be some differences as well in how the Church Fathers read and/or interpreted this text (i.e. "you" vs. "it")

In Against Heresies, Irenaeus (d. 202) quotes this passage, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness, that they, when ye shall be put to flight, may receive you into eternal tabernacles.
In his Commentary upon the Gospel of St. Luke, Cyril of Alexandria (370-444), writing in Greek, quoted Luke 16:9 two different ways: Make for yourselves friends of the unrighteous mammon: that when it fails they may receive you into eternal tabernacles in Sermon CVIII; and Make for yourselves friends of the unrighteous mammon: that when it has failed they may receive you into eternal tabernacles in Sermon CIX.
The Syriac translation of Luke 16:9 in the Peshitta (probably first made in the 2nd century) reads: Use this earthly wealth, however acquired, to make friends so that when it is gone, they will receive you and you will have everlasting habitation.
The Latin translation established by Jerome, but probably made much earlier (e.g. 2nd century) reads: Make unto you friends of the mammon of iniquity: that when you shall fail, they may receive you into everlasting dwellings.

Shane R · Nov 5, 2015

Gregory the NonTheologian said:
There seem to be some differences as well in how the Church Fathers read and/or interpreted this text (i.e. "you" vs. "it")

In Against Heresies, Irenaeus (d. 202) quotes this passage, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness, that they, when ye shall be put to flight, may receive you into eternal tabernacles.

In his Commentary upon the Gospel of St. Luke, Cyril of Alexandria (370-444), writing in Greek, quoted Luke 16:9 two different ways: Make for yourselves friends of the unrighteous mammon: that when it fails they may receive you into eternal tabernacles in Sermon CVIII; and Make for yourselves friends of the unrighteous mammon: that when it has failed they may receive you into eternal tabernacles in Sermon CIX.

The Syriac translation of Luke 16:9 in the Peshitta (probably first made in the 2nd century) reads: Use this earthly wealth, however acquired, to make friends so that when it is gone, they will receive you and you will have everlasting habitation.

The Latin translation established by Jerome, but probably made much earlier (e.g. 2nd century) reads: Make unto you friends of the mammon of iniquity: that when you shall fail, they may receive you into everlasting dwellings.

Interesting research. Do you suppose this represents a divergence in the textual tradition of the Byzantine text and the Alexandrian text?

Gregory the NonTheologian · Nov 5, 2015

shanethetheologian said:
Interesting research. Do you suppose this represents a divergence in the textual tradition of the Byzantine text and the Alexandrian text?

I am not really any kind of expert on those subjects, but it seems to me that there is not really a Byzantine "tradition" or an Alexandrian "tradition". From my understanding, what gives a certain "text type" its character is what set of manuscripts it was defined to comprise. The manuscripts we have on hand are probably a very small subset of what manuscripts were actually in circulation, especially when we consider that many manuscripts were destroyed during the persecutions prior to the legalization of Christianity. I suspect that if we had a much larger sampling of manuscripts, the scholars would end up defining a different classification system.

ISTANDBYJESUS · Nov 6, 2015

shakewell said:
Luke 16:9

And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations. KJV

And I say to you, make friends for yourselves by means of the mammon of unrighteousness; that when it fails, they may receive you into the eternal dwellings. NAS

Some versions say “when ye fail” and some say “when it fails”. When I look at the underlying Greek it only has words for “when” and “fail” (no “ye” or “it”).

Does anyone know what the different translators’ rationales might for translating it one way over another?

Luke 16:13-14King James Version (KJV)
13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon(MAN).
14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous(WHICH IS IDOLATRY), heard all these things: and they derided him.

shakewell · Nov 16, 2015

branchofthevine said:
In Greek most words, like nouns and verbs and adjectives, have the words 'you, he, she' embedded in the word itself in the form of its ending so it isn't surprising that you wouldn't find out the difference, especially if you're using Strong's because they just give you what the stem of the word means instead of what the inflected version of the word means. I'll use the word in question as an example, the stem of the word in Luke 16:9 that you're looking at is εκλειπω which means to fail, to cease, to come to an end. However, in Luke 16:9 εκλειπω doesn't appear, you do see either εκλιπητε or εκλιπη which is the inflected version, meaning it is the version of the word that has a specific aspect, tense, and mood. So in Luke 16:9 the word doesn't mean "to fail" but something like "you might fail/it might fail".

There is also a difference between textual manuscripts. The Byzantine textual tradition uses the word εκλιπητε which is a 2 Aorist Active Subjunctive verb 2person plural, meaning "you might fail" in context with the words ινα οταν it means "so that whenever you might fail.

Sinaiticus, and the Nestle-Aland text have the word εκλιπη which is a 2 Aorist Active Subjunctive verb 3 person singular which is "it might fail"

So that is why you are getting two different readings, the problem is what is verb referring too, and honestly it seems like a weird teaching, because it says "and I say to you, make for yourself friends from the wealth of unrighteousness so that whenever it/you might fail thy might receive you into the eternal tent"

Is it the wealth of unrighteousness that is going to fail you, or are you going to fail because you've made friends with the wealth of unrighteousness. In context of the following few verses in Luke it probably makes sense to translate it is as "it might fail" because of how the person is received into the eternal tent in v9, and how in v11 Jesus says "if, therefore, you are not trustworthy with dishonest wealth, who will trust you with true wealth?" It seems to point to the argument that "if you are trustworthy with wealth here on earth, which is unrighteous and might fail you, then you can be trustworthy with the wealth of God which is righteous and will never fail you" or something like that.

branchofthevine, thanks for your reply. Sorry I took so long to reply - I thought CF was going to send me notifications, but it didn’t.

What you’re saying is consistent with my own research. What has me scratching my head is that my interlinear (Jay P. Green / Hendrickson Publishers), using Scrivener’s TR, has the word form with the “te” at the end and yet it renders the word as “it fails”. So I guess I have to conclude that my interlinear has forced a little interpretation on this text instead of simply translating it.

shakewell · Nov 16, 2015

DamianWarS said:
The NASBs word in question is "ἐκλίπῃ" where the KJVs word in question is "ἐκλίπητε" which is the same root word but different affix.

The root word is: ἐκλείπω so comparing the verbs you see the NASB has the affix "-ῃ" and the KJV has the affix "-ητε". So what do these mean? "-ῃ" marks present tense-subjunctive-3rd person singular where "-ητε" marks present tense-subjunctive-2nd person plural.

The NASB translation is correct translating it "[when] it fails" while the KJV is also correct translating it "[when] ye fail" or the NKJV with the more modern translation of "[when] you fail". The difference falls under the greek base text these translations are using. The KJV (and NKJV) use the 1550 edition of the Textus Receptus and the NASB uses the 26th edition of Nestle-Aland’s Novum Testamentum Graece.

Although there is considerable debate as to which greek text is better most inconsistencies are much like this example where there are insignificant or no differences to the actual meaning of the text.

Thank you.

branchofthevine · Nov 17, 2015

shakewell said:
branchofthevine, thanks for your reply. Sorry I took so long to reply - I thought CF was going to send me notifications, but it didn’t.

What you’re saying is consistent with my own research. What has me scratching my head is that my interlinear (Jay P. Green / Hendrickson Publishers), using Scrivener’s TR, has the word form with the “te” at the end and yet it renders the word as “it fails”. So I guess I have to conclude that my interlinear has forced a little interpretation on this text instead of simply translating it.

No problem! Also just remember one thing, every translation is also an interpretation. You cannot translate a text without interpreting it, so don't be too hard on the translations if they are a bit weird sometimes

Search

Search

Luke 16:9 "when ye fail" or "when it fails"?

shakewell

Active Member

More options

branchofthevine

Newbie

More options

Shane R

Priest

More options

DamianWarS

Follower of Isa Al Masih

More options

Gregory the NonTheologian

Active Member

More options

Shane R

Priest

More options

Gregory the NonTheologian

Active Member

More options

ISTANDBYJESUS

Joseph Melo

More options

shakewell

Active Member

More options

shakewell

Active Member

More options

branchofthevine

Newbie

More options

Similar threads