Statues and crafted images, the greatest sin against God

SeventyTimes7 · Oct 30, 2015

Wryetui said:
Imagine this: I feel the needing to kiss Christ's feet and hands and I find a crucifix, then I tell God: "God, my Lord Jesus Christ, I can't kiss your hands and your feet in person but I will kiss you here as you are depicted in this crucifix", now look at me and tell me God would call this idolatry.

In the Bible to do this is not stated but to worship in spirit and truth
John 4:24
God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth."

Wryetui said:
Second of all, did you forget about the cherubims of the Ark of the Covenant? Of the bronze serpent Moses used in the desert?...

The cherubim were ordered by God and they were considered as the throne of God and they were not worshipped.

There was a reason why that brass serpent was there: first the jews sinned against God talking against God and Moses, so God punished them sending serpents to bite them, and ordered to Moses to put a brass serpent and to look at it to be healed by the venom of serpents. It was not about worshipping but it was a punishment and it was ordered by God.

SeventyTimes7 · Oct 30, 2015

Sumwear said:
The sames ones that allow men to have long hair, tattoos, eat pork and shellfish. But if you need Bible passages:

1 Kings 6:29

2 Chronicles 3:7-14

But let's reexamine Exodus 20:4 again:

Now take into consideration Post #72.

First of all the cherubims of the covenant were ordered by God to be graven and they represented His throne, second they were not worshipped.
Decorating and painting wall is not a sin.
Nice try but you lose

Sumwear · Oct 30, 2015

SeventyTimes7 said:
First of all the cherubims of the covenant were ordered by God to be graven and they represented His throne, second they were not worshipped.
Decorating and painting wall is not a sin.
Nice try but you lose

You keep saying a painting is different from a statue. I ask, in what way is a painting of Christ different from a statue of Christ? Also, please don't misconstrue veneration for something as worshiping. Catholics show it in their statues, the Orthodox do it through icons.

Also, both Catholics and Orthodox will use incense, holy water, bow down and kneel by a coffin, casket. Are you going to imply that they are worshiping that body?

Gregory the NonTheologian · Oct 30, 2015

SeventyTimes7 said:
the phrases "make a form" or "make a shape" are not a synonym of painting or drawing.
if you are drawing you are not making a solid shape of an animal or of a human, you are drawing about someone, or painting about someone. Hieroglyphics were a way of communication through paints, figures, they cannot be defined as idols.
But if you take one of these paints and you worship them, burn incense to them, kiss them, bow down to them, pick up on your shoulders around the village screaming "hail" to this paint, etc.. than you are breaking the commandment.
Anything we worship except God is a sin. In the Bible is written to worship only God.

I think you are confusing worship with veneration.

According to the Concise Oxford English Dictionary, worship means to "show reverence and adoration for (a deity); feel great admiration or devotion for"; whereas venerate means to "regard with great respect".

While it would not be proper to worship icons - the types of paintings I suspect you are referring to - it is entirely proper to venerate them (i.e. regard with great respect), by virtue of those whose images they portray.

This is a very old controversy that has been put to rest and resurfaced at various times in the history of the Church. Iconoclasm - the opposition to the proper use of religious images - was condemned as heresy by over 360 Church Fathers who gathered at the last Ecumenical Council of the universal Church, at Nicaea in 787. John of Damascus wrote an extensive rebuttal of the iconoclasts (which you can read online at http://www.ccel.org/ccel/damascus/icons.i.iv.html), as did Theodore the Studite.

Albion · Oct 30, 2015

SeventyTimes7 said:
The thing is which you don't make a "form, shape or likeness" when you take a picture.

You may be right about that, which is why some churches only use paintings and not statues, but OTOH, that was just an example and I wasn't the one who introduced it into the conversation. Still, it's quite strange to argue that a statue, if graven, is wrong, but an image that is made by pouring plaster or molten metal into a mold would be quite alright.

Explain me why "taking pictures" should be included in the commandment cause I don't see the point you tried in vain to explain during the whole day, you are the only one which in this commandment see "do not take pictures"... that's funny sir.

I'm glad you are amused. It relieves the pressure of having to think more deeply about any of these topics.

toLiJC · Oct 30, 2015

SeventyTimes7 said:
I will just let the Bible talk, so you do the same and show me why you would craft or use statues for worshipping purposes.
Let's begin from the origins:

Exodus 20:4-6
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them, for I Jehovah thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, upon the third and upon the fourth generation of them that hate me,
6 and showing lovingkindness unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.

Crafting images it's already a sin against God so statues should not even exist;
worshipping statues or using them as an indirect way worshipping, it's even worst.
In the second part of this commandment we can read a punishment promise to those who don't obey to this commandment, defining these people as "them that hate me".

this is the equivalent New Testament word of the second commandment:

John 4:19-24 "The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."

Blessings

Wryetui · Oct 30, 2015

SeventyTimes7 said:
To draw and to paint is not a sin, but to kiss and serve a paint is a sin sir.

Yes, so you will have to prove to me that I am serving a paint

You do not know how ridiculous and insulting you sound. I know christians like you, you have been brainwashed into thinking the other are wrong and idolaters and only you see the Bible and christianity as it is right to see it, but in fact your view comes from a poor culture and from ignorance, after all, people fear what they cannot understand.

Tell me, can you prove I serve a paint? Do you think my brain is not developed enough that I don't realize what a paint is and I serve it?

Wryetui · Oct 30, 2015

SeventyTimes7 said:
In the Bible to do this is not stated but to worship in spirit and truth
John 4:24
God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth."

The cherubim were ordered by God and they were considered as the throne of God and they were not worshipped.

There was a reason why that brass serpent was there: first the jews sinned against God talking against God and Moses, so God punished them sending serpents to bite them, and ordered to Moses to put a brass serpent and to look at it to be healed by the venom of serpents. It was not about worshipping but it was a punishment and it was ordered by God.

Tell me, how do you worship God in spirit and in truth?

Aren't you answering about the whole post I gave to you?

Yeshuas_My_Freedom · Oct 30, 2015

Blasphemy against the holy spirit is what I thought was the greatest and the only unforgivable sin. :sorry:

civilwarbuff · Oct 30, 2015

SeventyTimes7 said:
The thing is which you don't make a "form, shape or likeness" when you take a picture.

Of course it does....the resultant image has the form, shape and likeness of whatever/whomever I photographed....otherwise how would I recognize what I photographed?

civilwarbuff · Oct 30, 2015

Wryetui said:
The Triumph of Orthodoxy. We even have an icon about icons.

Interesting piece, I learned something. Thanks.

SeventyTimes7 · Oct 31, 2015

Sumwear said:
You keep saying a painting is different from a statue. I ask, in what way is a painting of Christ different from a statue of Christ? Also, please don't misconstrue veneration for something as worshiping. Catholics show it in their statues, the Orthodox do it through icons.

Also, both Catholics and Orthodox will use incense, holy water, bow down and kneel by a coffin, casket. Are you going to imply that they are worshiping that body?

1) In the Hebrew Scriptures we don't find the verb painting, but we do find the verb "draw" and in the commandment is not written "do not draw", but it's written don't make (the hebrew word for "make" can be translated as manufacture or craft) carven images nor shapes, and a painting is not a crafted shape but it is a draw and a draw is not a shape it's a draw and in the commandment it is not mentioned draw.

google results for "manufactured shape"

China_manufactured_rectangular_and_squares_shapes_copper.jpg_350x350.jpg

google results for "crafted shape"

2) No one except God and his son can be worshipped cause God ordered us to be submitted to the Son, and the Son tell us to be submitted to the Father and to pray only the Father, not men not saints not angels but God the Father. An icon is a piece of tissue with some paint and a wooden frame (in the most humble of cases) and it is not God.

SeventyTimes7 · Oct 31, 2015

Gregory the NonTheologian said:
I think you are confusing worship with veneration.

According to the Concise Oxford English Dictionary, worship means to "show reverence and adoration for (a deity); feel great admiration or devotion for"; whereas venerate means to "regard with great respect".

While it would not be proper to worship icons - the types of paintings I suspect you are referring to - it is entirely proper to venerate them (i.e. regard with great respect), by virtue of those whose images they portray.

This is a very old controversy that has been put to rest and resurfaced at various times in the history of the Church. Iconoclasm - the opposition to the proper use of religious images - was condemned as heresy by over 360 Church Fathers who gathered at the last Ecumenical Council of the universal Church, at Nicaea in 787. John of Damascus wrote an extensive rebuttal of the iconoclasts (which you can read online at http://www.ccel.org/ccel/damascus/icons.i.iv.html), as did Theodore the Studite.

Don't talk vain things man, show me with Bible verses why can you worship or kiss, or burn incense or bow down to an icon; I don't care what men invented, I care what God says about this argument.

SeventyTimes7 · Oct 31, 2015

Wryetui said:
Tell me, how do you worship God in spirit and in truth?

Aren't you answering about the whole post I gave to you?

We worship God in Spirit not in stones that's the meaning that you ignore on purpose cause you are not able to read and understand

SeventyTimes7 · Oct 31, 2015

civilwarbuff said:
Interesting piece, I learned something. Thanks.

you learned how to sin against God worshipping icons, well done ahahaah

SeventyTimes7 · Oct 31, 2015

civilwarbuff said:
Of course it does....the resultant image has the form, shape and likeness of whatever/whomever I photographed....otherwise how would I recognize what I photographed?

As I answered to the other guy up here to manufacture a shape, to make a shape is not to take a picture, cause a picture is a paint, a sketch.
These are manufactured shapes:

SeventyTimes7 · Oct 31, 2015

Yeshuas_My_Freedom said:
Blasphemy against the holy spirit is what I thought was the greatest and the only unforgivable sin.

As Greatest I intended the most common sin in this world. Second, when you worship a piece of stone or an icon which for you represents the trinity you are sinning against God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Laugh now

prodromos · Oct 31, 2015

So when two Japanese men bow to each other, they are worshipping each other?
When people kiss each other they are worshipping each other?
Or is it perhaps what is in their heart when they bow and kiss that determines whether or not it is worship?

SeventyTimes7 · Oct 31, 2015

prodromos said:
So when two Japanese men bow to each other, they are worshipping each other?
When people kiss each other they are worshipping each other?
Or is it perhaps what is in their heart when they bow and kiss that determines whether or not it is worship?

Acts of the apostles 10:25-26
25 And when it came to pass that Peter entered, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him.
26 But Peter raised him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.

What men think and manipulate is not important, the Holy Scripture is clear, but you guys are blind and have no fear of God and you spit on his commandments.

Yeshuas_My_Freedom · Oct 31, 2015

SeventyTimes7 said:
As Greatest I intended the most common sin in this world. Second, when you worship a piece of stone or an icon which for you represents the trinity you are sinning against God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Laugh now

You come off way too gleeful telling people they'll go to Hell in your opinion if....

Statues and crafted images, the greatest sin against God

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