"The Rapture" is just a trendy new idea

Psalm3704 · Oct 29, 2015

Open Heart said:
Do you know how to stay on subject and support your point or not?

I do but I'm too lazy to play fetch for another getting answers for them if they refuse to accept it.

.

iamlamad · Oct 30, 2015

Job8 said:
Not at all. Let's take another look at the Abrahamic Covenant.

Genesis 15:1-21 (Abrahamic Covenant to Abraham)

1 After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield,and thy exceeding great reward.

Literal Request for Children
2 And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus? 3 And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.

Literal Promise of Heir
4 And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.

Literal Promise of Countless Descendants
5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. 6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Literal Promise of Land
7 And he said unto him, I am the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it.

Literal Egyptian Bondage for Israel
13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;

Literal Possession of Canaan by Israel
16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.

Literal Covenant of Land from the Nile to the Euphrates
18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates: 19 The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites, 20 And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims, 21 And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.

Genesis 17:4-8 Reconfirmation of Abrahamic Covenant

Literal and Spiritual Father of Many Nations
And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. 2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly. 3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying, 4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. 5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

Literal Father of Many Nations
6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.

Literal and Spiritual Descendants from Abraham (see Galatians)
7And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

Literal Possession of the Land of Canaan by Redeemed Israel
8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

You missed the updated version:
Galations 3:7 New Living Translation
The real children of Abraham, then, are those who put their faith in God.

In other words, born again Gentiles are just as much children of Abraham as Isaac.

iamlamad · Oct 30, 2015

BABerean2 said:
Joshua said that it had come to pass.

Jos 21:43 And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
Jos 21:44 And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.
Jos 21:45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

In the New Jerusalem, the land promise will be much greater, and it will last forever for those who inherit through the One Seed of Gal. 3:16.

I am Abraham's seed.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

I am surprised you have not moved over there by now.

Job8 · Oct 30, 2015

iamlamad said:
You missed the updated version:
Galations 3:7 New Living Translation
The real children of Abraham, then, are those who put their faith in God.

In other words, born again Gentiles are just as much children of Abraham as Isaac.

Not at all. I showed that Abraham had BOTH literal and spiritual descendants (which includes Gentiles). But that was not really the point. What Christians need to understand is that the promises to redeemed and restored Israel are to be fulfilled in the future. And if I were you, I would not put much stock in the New Living Translation or any other modern version.

Job8 · Oct 30, 2015

BABerean2 said:
Joshua said that it had come to pass.

Please review Joshua and confirm whether Israel actually possessed the land from the Nile to the Euphrates? If not, then please go back to square one, and look at the Abrahamic Covenant again. And BTW, for the future, as already mentioned, Israel will be under the New Covenant when Christ sets up the kingdom of Israel on earth. Please review Romans 9-11.

parousia70 · Oct 30, 2015

Job8 said:
Please review Joshua and confirm whether Israel actually possessed the land from the Nile to the Euphrates?

Joshua's interpretation ought to be Authoritative for us, and not the other way around.

When Joshua said:
Jos 21:43 And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.

I'm inclined to Believe him, for again, his interpretation is authoritative for me, my observations of History are not authoritative for him.

Likewise when he said:
Jos 21:44 And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.
Jos 21:45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

I am again inclined to believe he is correct, and any interpretation that opposes his should be rejected.

And BTW, for the future, as already mentioned, Israel will be under the New Covenant when Christ sets up the kingdom of Israel on earth.

Please review Romans 9-11.

The Nazarene Sect of Israel, of whom Paul was a "ringleader" were the true elect ones of Israel and they indeed entered into Israel's New Covenant on time, as promised.

St. Paul said that when the nation was in mass apostasy, the TRUE Israel was carried on not through the lineages of the wicked sons but rather through the OBEDIENT FEW (called the "remnant"), such as was true in Isaiah's day (Romans 9:27-29) and Elijah's day (Romans 11:3-5).

Peter says the same thing at Acts 3:22-24, where it is clear that the wicked jews who refuse Christ were to be "cut off from among the People of Israel" while the faithful jews (John the Baptist, Joseph and Mary, the Twelve, the Seventy, the three thousand on Pentecost day, and many other jews) were the True Faithful Israel.

Just as the jewish church abode with Moses in the wilderness (Acts 7:37-38), so Jesus had HIS jewish church (Mt. 16:18-19). And within a few years after Pentecost, the faithful Israel learned how to start accepting both jewish and also gentile followers from all over the empire to convert into their Nation (1 Peter 2:9-10; Mt 21:40-45). And so the tiny remnant True Israel grew into a worldwide Judaism living under the promised NEW covenant of Israel's Messiah.

And so it was also in Moses' day, when the countless thousands of wicked sons of Abraham were slain in the wilderness while the faithful sons of Abraham survived and got to enter the Promised Land. We must NEVER count the continuation of Israel through the wicked sons but rather always through the faithful remnant!

Finally, in real historic terms, that means that the Nazarene Jewish sect (Acts 24:5) was the only one that survived AD 70. All the other sects---Sadducees, Essenes, Pharisees, Zealots--were destroyed and went extinct at AD 70. This is historic reality, as Jewish and secular histories admit. And it is quite remarkable that what saved the Nazarenes was their NEW covenant teaching that taught them to prepare to detach from animal sacrifices, the Temple, physical circumcision, and the priestly class of Aaron. The jews who did this survived AD 70 while the ones who clung to a salvation via the Old Covenant were all wiped out.
Amazing history.

Grafted In · Oct 30, 2015

From Dan to Beersheba, isn't it?

Don't mind me, I just recall Jimmy Swagert many years ago standing in front of a map that was way over his head saying "from Dan to Beersheba" over and over as he pointed above his head then stooping over as he pointed them out.

Grafted In · Oct 30, 2015

I came in late so what I wrote may be old hat?

Handmaid for Jesus · Oct 30, 2015

Here you go.
https://www.google.com/search?q=map...ZY_0egBVM:&usg=__3WBPy-XS4LP1BdyA3NlRVK8yvr8=

Job8 · Oct 30, 2015

parousia70 said:
Joshua's interpretation ought to be Authoritative for us, and not the other way around.

If Joshua's interpretation was "authoritative", then modern day Israel would not be squeezed into 1/10th of the Land of Promise today, nowhere near the Nile to the Euphrates. That is an EVERLASTING COVENANT which has yet to be fulfilled. So kindly study Ezekiel instead of limiting yourself to Joshua.

BABerean2 · Oct 30, 2015

Job8 said:
Please review Joshua and confirm whether Israel actually possessed the land from the Nile to the Euphrates? If not, then please go back to square one, and look at the Abrahamic Covenant again. And BTW, for the future, as already mentioned, Israel will be under the New Covenant when Christ sets up the kingdom of Israel on earth. Please review Romans 9-11.

So if Joshua does not agree with you, then something must be wrong...

Romans 9-11 says there are two Israels, one of the Flesh and one of the Promise.

The New Covenant found in Matt 26:28, Gal. chapter 3 and Hebrews chapter 8 is the same covenant found at the end of Romans 11. Hebrews 8:6 says it is now in effect.

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

The New Covenant was first made with Israelites like the Apostle Paul and the Gentiles were grafted into the Olive Tree later.

There are three groups of people in Romans 11.
1. There are the Israelites who accepted the New Covenant and were the branches remaining in the Olive Tree.
2. There were the Israelites who were the branches broken off due to unbelief.
3. There were the Gentiles who accepted the New Covenant and were grafted into the Olive Tree among the Israelite branches, like the Apostle Paul.

God and Christ have already fulfilled all of the Promise.

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

It simply has to be accepted, by Jews or Gentiles.

.

parousia70 · Oct 31, 2015

Job8 said:
If Joshua's interpretation was "authoritative", then modern day Israel would not be squeezed into 1/10th of the Land of Promise today

Modern day Israel is a multi ethnic, secular, democracy with zero relationship to the pre desolation Hebrew Theocracy. Not religiously, not politically and not genetically. They are not the Heirs to any Land Promise. With the sole exception of it's Christian Citizens, they are a people entirely outside of any covenant relationship with the Living God.

That is an EVERLASTING COVENANT which has yet to be fulfilled.

If it has yet to be fulfilled, then it can't be said to have been "everlasting" after all can it?

So kindly study Ezekiel instead of limiting yourself to Joshua.

Again, I hold Joshua's Interpretation of what was fulfilled and what wasn't regarding the land, as Authoritative.

You can argue with him if you wish, but when faced with these two polar opposite interpretations of the degree of fulfillment of the land promises, Job8's vs. Joshua's, My money is on the Old Testament prophet of God Joshua being correct, and the random 21st century CF poster Job8 being mistaken.

Biblewriter · Nov 2, 2015

The doctrine of the church being "suddenly caught up" a distinct time before the Lord returns to judge the earth is most certainly NOT a new doctrine. It was taught in the very oldest Christian commentary on Bible prophecy (of any significant length) that has survived to the present day. This is the last twelve chapters of the very famous work by Irenaeus, titled "Against Heresies," whichis believed to have been published between the years 186 and 188 A.D.

BABerean2 · Nov 2, 2015

Biblewriter said:
The doctrine of the church being "suddenly caught up" a distinct time before the Lord returns to judge the earth is most certainly NOT a new doctrine. It was taught in the very oldest Christian commentary on Bible prophecy (of any significant length) that has survived to the present day. This is the last twelve chapters of the very famous work by Irenaeus, titled "Against Heresies," whichis believed to have been published between the years 186 and 188 A.D.

Welcome back Brother.

Since our last conversation, Good Fight Ministries released in August a history of the pretrib doctrine, which goes from the early Church Fathers to the Scofield Reference Bible.

It is titled "Left Behind or Led Astray", and uses the historical written record to show the origin of the doctrine.

Since the DVD was released, those who produced it have come under attack by some of their fellow pastors who do not want those sitting in their pews to see the history of the doctrine they are promoting.

Left Behind or Led Astray?

http://www.leftbehindorledastray.com/

.

Handmaid for Jesus · Nov 2, 2015

BA, I wondered why you were always promoting this DVD to the point of it being spam. Now I know. LOL. ^_^

Why didn't you just tell us that you were promoting your ministry's DVD?

iamlamad · Nov 2, 2015

BABerean2 said:
Welcome back Brother.

Since our last conversation, Good Fight Ministries released in August a history of the pretrib doctrine, which goes from the early Church Fathers to the Scofield Reference Bible.

It is titled "Left Behind or Led Astray", and uses the historical written record to show the origin of the doctrine.

Since the DVD was released, those who produced it have come under attack by some of their fellow pastors who do not want those sitting in their pews to see the history of the doctrine they are promoting.

Left Behind or Led Astray?

http://www.leftbehindorledastray.com/

.

I listened to Wilkinson debunking this "Left behind or Led Astray" video. Actually, he was right in what he said.

BABerean2 · Nov 2, 2015

Handmaid for Jesus said:
BA, I wondered why you were always promoting this DVD to the point of it being spam. Now I know. LOL. Why didn't you just tell us that you were promoting your ministry's DVD?

Although I have shared some of my research with Good Fight Ministries and have purchased a couple of copies of their new DVD, that would be the extent of my association with them, but I appreciate the complement.

I live in North Carolina. Their ministry is based in California.

Good Fight Ministries
P.O. BOX 2202
SIMI VALLEY, CA 93062

Matthew Twentyfour · Nov 3, 2015

BABerean2 said:
Although I have shared some of my research with Good Fight Ministries and have purchased a couple of copies of their new DVD, that would be the extent of my association with them, but I appreciate the complement.

I live in North Carolina. Their ministry is based in California.

Good Fight Ministries
P.O. BOX 2202
SIMI VALLEY, CA 93062

You have two homes? No wonder you're furiously trying to sell those DVD's.

Here's my advice. Sell the truth, it'll get you a mansion in heaven.

Dang, you even know the PO Box.

BABerean2 · Nov 3, 2015

Matthew Twentyfour said:
Here's my advice. Sell the truth, it'll get you a mansion in heaven.
googletag.cmd.push(function() { googletag.display('div-gpt-ad-1445020441508-1'); });

Why would people accept the truth, instead of having their ears tickled?

Since the beginning of the week, I have gone from being a retired public school teacher living in North Carolina to being Pastor Joe Schimmel from California.

I knew some of us had active imaginations, but I had no idea...

I guess you guys will make this my third alias and address.

If Gideon is viewing this he is probably LOL now, since he has mailed things to me from New Zealand.

Oh No... I should not have said that, because now you guys will have me owning another residence in New Zealand...

This is from Pastor Tim Warner in Florida.

Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine

http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf

He found the same history of the pretrib doctrine that Pastor Joe Schimmel and I found.

Matthew Twentyfour · Nov 3, 2015

BABerean2 said:
Why would people accept the truth, instead of having their ears tickled?

Since the beginning of the week, I have gone from being a retired public school teacher living in North Carolina to being Pastor Joe Schimmel from California.

I knew some of us had active imaginations, but I had no idea...

I guess you guys will make this my third alias and address.

If Gideon is viewing this he is probably LOL now, since he has mailed things to me from New Zealand.

Oh No... I should not have said that, because now you guys will have me owning another residence in New Zealand...

This is from Pastor Tim Warner in Florida.

Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine

http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf

He found the same history of the pretrib doctrine that Pastor Joe Schimmel and I found.

You left out Kirk Cameron.

:wave:

"The Rapture" is just a trendy new idea

And He shall give you the desires of your heart.

Lamad

Lamad

Senior Member

Senior Member

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow

Newbie

Newbie

You can't steal my joy

Senior Member

Newbie

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow

Senior Member

Newbie

You can't steal my joy

Lamad

Newbie

Take up your cross daily, and follow Me. Luke 9:23

Newbie

Take up your cross daily, and follow Me. Luke 9:23

Similar threads