"The Rapture" is just a trendy new idea

Psalm3704 · Oct 29, 2015

Jipsah said:
Wait, our Lord said "It is finished." You say in a very large picture of some sort, that "it's not finished yet!" Hmmm... I think I'll go

Lessee, our Lord says it is finished, you say it ain't. I think I'll go with what He said. Is there any part of that you don't understand? <Laugh>

Jipsah,

You're only allowed to laugh if you know what Christ was talking about being finished.

This is what happens when one is laughing while clueless at the same time.

.

Psalm3704 · Oct 29, 2015

Jipsah said:
26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Any further questions?

Yeah, I have a question. If you think communion literally involves His body and blood, how is the church suppose to perform communion after Christ already ascended into heaven and no longer with us? Does this have anything to do with travelling back to 70 AD?

Any further answers?

Jipsah said:
Shazam, I'd never have thought that! <LOL>

It's because not everything happened in 70 AD. You might be surprise but the law of Moses was written 3000 years prior.

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Psalm3704 · Oct 29, 2015

iamlamad said:
Please, tell us exactly WHAT was finished?

I'm pretty sure it'll be Jipsah's dignity when he scrambles to find an answer.

.

Douggg · Oct 29, 2015

ewq1938 said:
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: (the second coming) and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (the resurrection of the dead in Christ)
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (the rapture)

A rapture before the second coming and before the resurrection is scripturally impossible.

If so, then let's look at Revelation 19 to read about Jesus coming with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God....
....sorry, but none of those things are found in John's vision of Jesus's return to this earth at His Second Coming.

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Douggg · Oct 29, 2015

ewq1938 said:
1. the start of the second coming/Christ leaves heaven. (this doesn't happen until the tribulation has ended, Mat_24:29)
2. the resurrection. (dead saints resurrect bodily in heaven and follow Christ as he returns to the Earth-second coming)
3. the rapture. (living saints on Earth are gathered together from where ever they are on the Earth in order to meet Christ in the clouds when he arrives)

Did Jesus go to prepare a place for us in heaven, where His Father's house is? That seems to be speaking of heaven, not earth.

John 14.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Thus, I would consider although the saints will be returning to reign and rule will Jesus upon this earth. The permanent heavenly abode that Jesus promises in John 14:2-3, of the saints is in heaven - and that in our new resurrected/raptured bodies we can travel back and forth - not restricted to earth as we currently are in our existing bodies.

The resurrection/rapture takes place such that we escape the great tribulation - to live in those heavenly mansions.

Gottservant · Oct 29, 2015

The point being that qualified as something only other than such would be said was literal, you assume others would only say more so goes away - not more than?

BABerean2 · Oct 29, 2015

Douggg said:
Thus, I would consider although the saints will be returning to reign and rule will Jesus upon this earth. The permanent heavenly abode that Jesus promises in John 14:2-3, of the saints is in heaven - and that in our new resurrected/raptured bodies we can travel back and forth - not restricted to earth as we currently are in our existing bodies.

The resurrection/rapture takes place such that we escape the great tribulation - to live in those heavenly mansions.

That place found in John 14:2-3 is coming here at the future Second Coming of Christ.

Rev_3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Rev_21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

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Douggg · Oct 29, 2015

BABerean2 said:
That place found in John 14:2-3 is coming here at the future Second Coming of Christ.

Rev_3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Rev_21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

.

Well, I don't disagree that there will be the heavenly Jerusalem on the new earth - which is after this present earth passes away. The Second Coming is to this present earth - not the new earth.

The present earth and everything in it will be destroyed at the end of the thousand years.

Jesus coming for believers in John 14:2-3 is for the resurrection/rapture, not the Second Coming return down to this earth.

BABerean2 · Oct 29, 2015

faroukfarouk said:
Usually the rapture from 1 Thess. 4 is explained in terms of the church being caught up, whereas in Matthew 24 it seems to be the remnant of Israel on earth, in view.

The pretrib doctrine collapses under it's own weight if we look at the scenario painted by Dispensational Theology.

They claim that after the pretrib rapture, God will go back to dealing with Israel under the Old Covenant.

However, Hebrews chapter 8 clearly says that Christ is "Now" the mediator of a better covenant based on better promises. Heb. 8:6

Based on Romans 11 the New Covenant was first made with Israelites, like the Apostle Paul. The Gentiles were grafted in among the remaining branches of faithful Israelites. The covenant at the end of Romans 11 is the New Covenant, which is now in effect. The branches broken off because of unbelief, can be grafted back into the Olive Tree through faith in Christ.

Hebrews 8:13 states that the Old Covenant has become obsolete.

Dispensationalists have the modern Jews going back to an obsolete covenant, with an obsolete mediator.

They are attempting to take the veil that was torn in half on the day of the Cross and sew it back together.

Now, salvation only comes through the New Covenant Blood sacrifice of Jesus. Matt 26:28

The blood of bulls and goats under the Mosaic system is gone, nada, never coming back...

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faroukfarouk · Oct 29, 2015

BABerean2 said:
The pretrib doctrine collapses under it's own weight if we look at the scenario painted by Dispensational Theology.

They claim that after the pretrib rapture, God will go back to dealing with Israel under the Old Covenant.

However, Hebrews chapter 8 clearly says that Christ is "Now" the mediator of a better covenant based on better promises. Heb. 8:6

Based on Romans 11 the New Covenant was first made with Israelites, like the Apostle Paul. The Gentiles were grafted in among the remaining branches of faithful Israelites. The covenant at the end of Romans 11 is the New Covenant, which is now in effect. The branches broken off because of unbelief, can be grafted back into the Olive Tree through faith in Christ.

Hebrews 8:13 states that the Old Covenant has become obsolete.

Dispensationalists have the modern Jews going back to an obsolete covenant, with an obsolete mediator.

They are attempting to take the veil that was torn in half on the day of the Cross and sew it back together.

Now, salvation only comes through the New Covenant Blood sacrifice of Jesus. Matt 26:28

The blood of bulls and goats under the Mosaic system is gone, nada, never coming back...

.

Your portrayal of what you see as dispensationalism is not accurate. In the New Testament, there definitely seems to be a distinction between the church and Israel, between the coming of the Lord Jesus for His church in the air and His coming on earth in power and glory, to which the term the 'day of the Lord' refers.

If we even started to go back and forth on this it's likely we would go round and round in circles, which I don't want to do, but just wanted to point out that there is indeed a difference between Israel and the church in the New Testament.

Job8 · Oct 29, 2015

faroukfarouk said:
Your portrayal of what you see as dispensationalism is not accurate. In the New Testament, there definitely seems to be a distinction between the church and Israel, between the coming of the Lord Jesus for His church in the air and His coming on earth in power and glory, to which the term the 'day of the Lord' refers.

Amen. Unless a person approaches Scripture with a preconception, that is exactly what we discover. Those who are anti-dispensational simply follow along with some man-made theology instead of carefully comparing Scripture with Scripture.

Job8 · Oct 29, 2015

They claim that after the pretrib rapture, God will go back to dealing with Israel under the Old Covenant.

Not "the Old Covenant" but "the Abrahamic Covenant" with the New Covenant in place. Big difference.

faroukfarouk · Oct 29, 2015

Job8 said:
Amen. Unless a person approaches Scripture with a preconception, that is exactly what we discover. Those who are anti-dispensational simply follow along with some man-made theology instead of carefully comparing Scripture with Scripture.

Everyone has presuppositions of one variety or another. But I do believe the distinction between the church and Israel, and between the Lord's coming in the air for His church and His coming in power and glory on earth, are clear.

BABerean2 · Oct 29, 2015

Job8 said:
Not "the Old Covenant" but "the Abrahamic Covenant" with the New Covenant in place. Big difference.

You seem confused about who the Abrahamic Promise was made to...

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

The Promise was made to only One Seed, which is Christ.

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
( I am Abraham's seed and heir to the promise. )

The New Covenant is found in Romans chapter 11.

Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

The New Covenant was originally made with Israelites like the Apostle Paul.

The Gentiles were grafted into the Olive tree with those Israelites who accepted Christ as the Messiah.

The unbelieving Israelite branches were broken off and can only gain salvation through faith. This will graft them back into the Olive Tree.

Christ is now the mediator of the New Covenant.
Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

There is no Plan B.
.

Open Heart · Oct 29, 2015

Psalm3704 said:
Moses wrote the first 5 books in the bible. Many of his writings were made into laws by the rabbi's and other Jewish leaders. http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm

All the commandments in Torah, all of which were given by God, were organized into the 613 laws by rabbis and other Jewish leaders.

God told Moses to speak to the children many times.

Yes, the LORD said speak to the Children of Israel just before every sequence of laws in the Torah. Can you give me any example of a sequences of laws in the Torah that are NOT begun with The LORD said "Speak to the Children of Israel" ??

.[/QUOTE]

iamlamad · Oct 29, 2015

Douggg said:
If so, then let's look at Revelation 19 to read about Jesus coming with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God....
....sorry, but none of those things are found in John's vision of Jesus's return to this earth at His Second Coming.

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Thanks, Doug! I had a hearty laugh! Good post!

Job8 · Oct 29, 2015

BABerean2 said:
You seem confused about who the Abrahamic Promise was made to...

Not at all. Let's take another look at the Abrahamic Covenant.

Genesis 15:1-21 (Abrahamic Covenant to Abraham)

1 After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield,and thy exceeding great reward.

Literal Request for Children
2 And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus? 3 And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.

Literal Promise of Heir
4 And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.

Literal Promise of Countless Descendants
5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. 6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Literal Promise of Land
7 And he said unto him, I am the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it.

Literal Egyptian Bondage for Israel
13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;

Literal Possession of Canaan by Israel
16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.

Literal Covenant of Land from the Nile to the Euphrates
18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates: 19 The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites, 20 And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims, 21 And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.

Genesis 17:4-8 Reconfirmation of Abrahamic Covenant

Literal and Spiritual Father of Many Nations
And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. 2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly. 3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying, 4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. 5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

Literal Father of Many Nations
6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.

Literal and Spiritual Descendants from Abraham (see Galatians)
7And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

Literal Possession of the Land of Canaan by Redeemed Israel
8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

BABerean2 · Oct 29, 2015

Job8 said:
Literal Possession of the Land of Canaan by Redeemed Israel
8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

Joshua said that it had come to pass.

Jos 21:43 And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
Jos 21:44 And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.
Jos 21:45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

In the New Jerusalem, the land promise will be much greater, and it will last forever for those who inherit through the One Seed of Gal. 3:16.

I am Abraham's seed.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

.

Psalm3704 · Oct 29, 2015

Open Heart said:
All the commandments in Torah, all of which were given by God, were organized into the 613 laws by rabbis and other Jewish leaders.

Yes I know this already, Moses was inspired by God to write the first 5 books of the bible. Thanks for sharing.

Open Heart said:
Yes, the LORD said speak to the Children of Israel just before every sequence of laws in the Torah. Can you give me any example of a sequences of laws in the Torah that are NOT begun with The LORD said "Speak to the Children of Israel" ??

I probably could or I probably can't. If you make an effort to study the bible carefully and realize preterism is a false theology, I'll make an effort to get you your answer. Deal?

.

.

Open Heart · Oct 29, 2015

Psalm3704 said:
I probably could or I probably can't. If you make an effort to study the bible carefully and realize preterism is a false theology, I'll make an effort to get you your answer. Deal?

Do you know how to stay on subject and support your point or not?

"The Rapture" is just a trendy new idea

And He shall give you the desires of your heart.

And He shall give you the desires of your heart.

And He shall give you the desires of your heart.

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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And He shall give you the desires of your heart.

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