The happy conclusions of the present gun debate.

OldWiseGuy

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• Eric Harris age 17 (first on Zoloft then Luvox) and Dylan Klebold aged 18 (Columbine school shooting in Littleton, Colorado), killed 12 students and 1 teacher, and wounded 23 others, before killing themselves. Klebold's medical records have never been made available to the public.

• Jeff Weise, age 16, had been prescribed 60 mg/day of Prozac (three times the average starting dose for adults!) when he shot his grandfather, his grandfather's girlfriend and many fellow students at Red Lake, Minnesota. He then shot himself. 10 dead, 12 wounded.

• Cory Baadsgaard, age 16, Wahluke (Washington state) High School, was on Paxil (which caused him to have hallucinations) when he took a rifle to his high school and held 23 classmates hostage. He has no memory of the event.

• Chris Fetters, age 13, killed his favorite aunt while taking Prozac.

• Christopher Pittman, age 12, murdered both his grandparents while taking Zoloft.

• Mathew Miller, age 13, hung himself in his bedroom closet after taking Zoloft for 6 days.

• Kip Kinkel, age 15, (on Prozac and Ritalin) shot his parents while they slept then went to school and opened fire killing 2 classmates and injuring 22 shortly after beginning Prozac treatment.

• Luke Woodham, age 16 (Prozac) killed his mother and then killed two students, wounding six others.

• A boy in Pocatello, ID (Zoloft) in 1998 had a Zoloft-induced seizure that caused an armed stand off at his school.

• Michael Carneal (Ritalin), age 14, opened fire on students at a high school prayer meeting in West Paducah, Kentucky. Three teenagers were killed, five others were wounded..

• A young man in Huntsville, Alabama (Ritalin) went psychotic chopping up his parents with an ax and also killing one sibling and almost murdering another.

• Andrew Golden, age 11, (Ritalin) and Mitchell Johnson, aged 14, (Ritalin) shot 15 people, killing four students, one teacher, and wounding 10 others.

• TJ Solomon, age 15, (Ritalin) high school student in Conyers, Georgia opened fire on and wounded six of his class mates.

• Rod Mathews, age 14, (Ritalin) beat a classmate to death with a bat.

• James Wilson, age 19, (various psychiatric drugs) from Breenwood, South Carolina, took a .22 caliber revolver into an elementary school killing two young girls, and wounding seven other children and two teachers.

• Elizabeth Bush, age 13, (Paxil) was responsible for a school shooting in Pennsylvania

• Jason Hoffman (Effexor and Celexa) – school shooting in El Cajon, California

• Jarred Viktor, age 15, (Paxil), after five days on Paxil he stabbed his grandmother 61 times.

• Chris Shanahan, age 15 (Paxil) in Rigby, ID who out of the blue killed a woman.

• Jeff Franklin (Prozac and Ritalin), Huntsville, AL, killed his parents as they came home from work using a sledge hammer, hatchet, butcher knife and mechanic's file, then attacked his younger brothers and sister.

• Neal Furrow (Prozac) in LA Jewish school shooting reported to have been court-ordered to be on Prozac along with several other medications.

• Kevin Rider, age 14, was withdrawing from Prozac when he died from a gunshot wound to his head. Initially it was ruled a suicide, but two years later, the investigation into his death was opened as a possible homicide. The prime suspect, also age 14, had been taking Zoloft and other SSRI antidepressants.

• Alex Kim, age 13, hung himself shortly after his Lexapro prescription had been doubled.

• Diane Routhier was prescribed Welbutrin for gallstone problems. Six days later, after suffering many adverse effects of the drug, she shot herself.

• Billy Willkomm, an accomplished wrestler and a University of Florida student, was prescribed Prozac at the age of 17. His family found him dead of suicide – hanging from a tall ladder at the family's Gulf Shore Boulevard home in July 2002.

• Kara Jaye Anne Fuller-Otter, age 12, was on Paxil when she hung herself from a hook in her closet. Kara's parents said ".... the damn doctor wouldn't take her off it and I asked him to when we went in on the second visit. I told him I thought she was having some sort of reaction to Paxil...")

• Gareth Christian, Vancouver, age 18, was on Paxil when he committed suicide in 2002, (Gareth's father could not accept his son's death and killed himself.)

• Julie Woodward, age 17, was on Zoloft when she hung herself in her family's detached garage.

• Matthew Miller was 13 when he saw a psychiatrist because he was having difficulty at school. The psychiatrist gave him samples of Zoloft. Seven days later his mother found him dead, hanging by a belt from a laundry hook in his closet.

• Kurt Danysh, age 18, and on Prozac, killed his father with a shotgun. He is now behind prison bars, and writes letters, trying to warn the world that SSRI drugs can kill.

• Woody __, age 37, committed suicide while in his 5th week of taking Zoloft. Shortly before his death his physician suggested doubling the dose of the drug. He had seen his physician only for insomnia. He had never been depressed, nor did he have any history of any mental illness symptoms.

• A boy from Houston, age 10, shot and killed his father after his Prozac dosage was increased.

• Hammad Memon, age 15, shot and killed a fellow middle school student. He had been diagnosed with ADHD and depression and was taking Zoloft and "other drugs for the conditions."

• Matti Saari, a 22-year-old culinary student, shot and killed 9 students and a teacher, and wounded another student, before killing himself. Saari was taking an SSRI and a benzodiazapine.

• Steven Kazmierczak, age 27, shot and killed five people and wounded 21 others before killing himself in a Northern Illinois University auditorium. According to his girlfriend, he had recently been taking Prozac, Xanax and Ambien. Toxicology results showed that he still had trace amounts of Xanax in his system.

• Finnish gunman Pekka-Eric Auvinen, age 18, had been taking antidepressants before he killed eight people and wounded a dozen more at Jokela High School – then he committed suicide.

• Asa Coon from Cleveland, age 14, shot and wounded four before taking his own life. Court records show Coon was on Trazodone.

• Jon Romano, age 16, on medication for depression, fired a shotgun at a teacher in his New York high school.

Missing from list... 3 of 4 known to have taken these same meds....

• What drugs was Jared Lee Loughner on, age 21...... killed 6 people and injuring 14 others in Tuscon, Az?

• What drugs was James Eagan Holmes on, age 24..... killed 12 people and injuring 59 others in Aurora Colorado?

• What drugs was Jacob Tyler Roberts on, age 22, killed 2 injured 1, Clackamas Or?

• What drugs was Adam Peter Lanza on, age 20, Killed 26 and wounded 2 in Newtown Ct?

Credit to Dan Roberts Ammoland.com

It is probable that millions of others taking these medications did not have the same reaction as those listed here (if indeed a reaction leading to violence can even be proven). The conclusion that leaps into mind regarding these drugs is that those taking them must be reported to the proper agency, which will suspend their right to buy guns, and secure any guns they might have access to during their treatment. Of course the difficulty of this is obvious. Problematic as well is the likelihood that they will probably not get their guns rights back once lost.
 
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JGG

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It is probable that millions of others taking these medications did not have the same reaction as those listed here (if indeed a reaction leading to violence can even be proven). The conclusion that leaps into mind regarding these drugs is that those taking them must be reported to the proper agency, which will suspend their right to buy guns, and secure any guns they might have access to during their treatment. Of course the difficulty of this is obvious. Problematic as well is the likelihood that they will probably not get their guns rights back once lost.

It's also worth pointing out the same idea of correlation I suggested earlier. Perhaps it isn't the medication that is leading to their actions, but the fact that they all have some mental disturbance for which the medication was prescribed.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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How does that refute the fact that mass shootings happen in non gun free zones and people who are concealed carrying do not stop them?

Someone with a handgun has to be very close to the shooter at the time the shooting is happening or about to happen. The odds of this are very small. I can hit most anything within 150 yards with my rifle, but 20 yards is about the maximum effective distance with my handgun.
 
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AceHero

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What debate? There's some hand wringing on one side and a couple of "Don't discuss this after people are killed by guns!" on the other and then it's back to business as usual with (to quote my dad): "After everything is said and done, there's more said then done.". :wave:
tulc(till the next slaughter then it's "wash, rinse repeat") :sigh:

They say, "Now's not the time," and by the time it's time to talk...there's another shooting.

If they have been adjudicated mentally ill or have been committed to a mental institution.
Harsh. Well, there go half the oathkeepers with any history of active service, I guess.

Those people are downright kooks.

Along the theme of personal responsibility:

Canadians have 22,000 guns per 100,000 people. Americans have 112,000 guns per 100,000 people. Canadians have a firearms death rate of 2.2 per 100,000 people. Americans have a firearms death rate of 10.4 per 100,000 people.

Now, I'm just eyeballing the statistics, but it seems that the more guns you have, the more people are killed by them. So why is the solution to put more guns out there?

Let's see — the U.S. has 5.09 times the amount of guns per 100,000 people as Canada and experiences 4.72 times the firearm death rate. Looks pretty clear to me.

I find it "interesting" that, even though we have been getting reports of mass shootings, it seems a lot of people still do not buy guns. I haven't. I trust God with my life.

I think gun rights advocates put way too much confidence in their claim that taking away gun free zones will automatically result in shoppers and students carrying guns with them en masse.
 
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com7fy8

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We are more socialist, sure. Consider that perhaps we are more socialist because we do not feel entitled, or independent, not necessarily the other way around.
Ok, sounds good :)
I do think that Canadians tend to have genuine concern for their neighbour, and aren't prepared to step on them to get what we want.
All of us need to be like this.

But, "of course", each person can be different, in a group. But you say that Canadians "tend" to be unselfish. You do not say that every one is.

I think in America, in order to get yours, you have to take from someone else.
Well, this can be how a lot of Americans do things. And, for just one example, in order for us to have the low prices we have on certain products, we buy from China, which means that ones are working for rather low wages, in China, so we can have more for our wages while they do not have things that we have. So, I suppose this could be a way of taking from someone else so we can have what we want.

And, since this thread is about gun control . . . I'll say that ones in America might not themselves carry and use guns, but they can use people who have guns in order to enforce their getting what they want. So, there can be anti-gun folks who indeed are using guns to get what they want, but the guns they use just are not in their own hands.

And there are ones who are saying they are against people having guns, yet they are ok with killing unborn Americans, and they will use people with guns to defend the killing of unborn people. So, ones are ok with killing, when it suits their purpose, and using guns that they can control, if it suits their purpose. Killing is included in how they do things.

And, in order to have the lives they want, they can take life away from an unborn person. So, yes, in America ones do take in order to have what they want, in more ways than one.
 
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I'll further the bet by predicting that this will be the claim made by politicians seeking more restrictions on gun rights before anything is ever known about the shooter.
Well, the rational ppl who recgonize that ALL the mass shooting spurring this "restriction" debate, refuse to see the root cause of these shootings.

The elephant in the room is actually a two headed beast.

On one head, he ravages thru gun free cities where kids get "ILLEGAL" guns and kill themselves and innocents as well b/c someone is selling drugs on their corner, not wearing their colors, etc etc etc.
The other head of the beast lumbers in and out of psychiatric offices being prescribed God knows what which scrambles his/her mind to the point that everyone needs to die and he/she simply plots their rampage until such a time as they act upon it.

It doesnt matter how quick we jump to conclusions......we need only to look at the past history of these murders and see that 9/10, and in mass cases, 99/100 are either directly or indirectly linked by mental illness or gangland mentality.
 
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com7fy8

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Yeah, I'll bet you a penny that the next mass shooting will be committed by another person who fell thru the cracks of our broken mental healthcare system.
Well, how can people of this world know how to care for people with mental health problems? They use drugs and methods, for what can include a spiritual character problem. If you don't deal with the source, when it is spiritual and includes sin, then no method of chemicals and talking and behavior modification can really work right. If people have the character to kill people, because they do not know how to love, a chemical and methods can't change this; only God is able.

I'll further the bet by predicting that this will be the claim made by politicians seeking more restrictions on gun rights before anything is ever known about the shooter.
I just saw a documentary in which a killer said he couldn't remember shooting the woman. He claimed, therefore, that he was insane at the time. But he was already proven to make up lies to cover for himself. So, how can you go by what he would say to a psychiatrist? You can't "know" anything that he might tell you!

And I read that one predator "priest" lied to a "therapist", saying that by God's grace he was no longer violating boys . . . while in fact he was still doing it. So, if an evaluator just believes whatsoever a "patient" says, the evaluator is not going to know how the person really is.

Well, the rational ppl who recgonize that ALL the mass shooting spurring this "restriction" debate, refuse to see the root cause of these shootings.
root cause > I think it is sin. And when pretty much any person is effectively stopped from getting what that person treasures, he or she can become harmful and even a killer. Look at how people can kill their own unborn, just because they fear how their baby could interfere with the lives they want to live. The killer spirit is lurking behind any selfish way of living.

It doesnt matter how quick we jump to conclusions......we need only to look at the past history of these murders and see that 9/10, and in mass cases, 99/100 are either directly or indirectly linked by mental illness or gangland mentality.
Willingness to kill in order to get or protect what you want . . . this is not limited to being in gang members and people with more "obvious" mental issues. An everyday female can be psychologically terrorized into killing her own unborn, if she feels at risk of losing social support or the convenient life she wants to keep.

If you effectively mess with anyone having his or her pleasure which is a treasure for that person . . . anyone is at risk of acting like a lunatic.
 
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Aldebaran

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It's also worth pointing out the same idea of correlation I suggested earlier. Perhaps it isn't the medication that is leading to their actions, but the fact that they all have some mental disturbance for which the medication was prescribed.

Then it sounds like the medication didn't do what it was supposed to do. So why not blame the medication?
 
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com7fy8

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Then it sounds like the medication didn't do what it was supposed to do. So why not blame the medication?
In a mental health newsletter, I have read that mental health professionals know that medication can not cure a personality disorder.

A physical substance can not change a person's spiritual nature. Only God can. So, if secular people operate from the premise that there is only physical existence and no spiritual beings and therefore no spiritual-level character, then they can not effectively diagnose people so they can know the real problem and how to cure it. Only God is able to cure us at the spiritual roots of our emotional troubles and personality torments, for example 1 John 4:17.
 
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JGG

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Then it sounds like the medication didn't do what it was supposed to do. So why not blame the medication?

Well, when people use medication to treat any disorder there is a struggle to find the right medication. Doctors want to curb symptoms, but minimize side effects. You can't just say take some Valium and you'll feel better. Secondly, for the most part medication only ever really manages symptoms not the underlying problems. If someone suffers from a chemical imbalance, then all we can do is try to regulate those chemicals, we can't fix the reason they're imbalanced to begin with.

What you're suggesting is that when someone has a heart attack, and is put on medication for it, if they then have another heart attack we should blame the medication either because it must have caused the heart attack, or because it didn't prevent one. We should ignore the fact that the patient had a heart condition.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Well, when people use medication to treat any disorder there is a struggle to find the right medication. Doctors want to curb symptoms, but minimize side effects. You can't just say take some Valium and you'll feel better. Secondly, for the most part medication only ever really manages symptoms not the underlying problems. If someone suffers from a chemical imbalance, then all we can do is try to regulate those chemicals, we can't fix the reason they're imbalanced to begin with.

What you're suggesting is that when someone has a heart attack, and is put on medication for it, if they then have another heart attack we should blame the medication either because it must have caused the heart attack, or because it didn't prevent one. We should ignore the fact that the patient had a heart condition.

How do you relate this to the gun violence problem?
 
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rambot

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It doesnt matter how quick we jump to conclusions......we need only to look at the past history of these murders and see that 9/10, and in mass cases, 99/100 are either directly or indirectly linked by mental illness or gangland mentality.
10/10 and 100/100 used a gun though.
 
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KarateCowboy

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I'll place a bet....
My bet is that when another person decides they want to die and take as many people with them as possible and then go to a "gun free zone" to do just that, the liberal politicians and news personalities will blame the gun owning and law abiding citizens for wanting to retain the freedoms they now have, rather than give them up in order to satisfy those who want to take away those freedoms out of an emotional response to "do something".
This is really something. They actually have the nerve to demonize law abiding, responsible people. " clinging to their guns and religion ". It's like demonizing the thrifty savers when someone gambled himself into debt. " money control ". People like Obama who demonize the responsible... I see them as quite the threat to society.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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This is really something. They actually have the nerve to demonize law abiding, responsible people. " clinging to their guns and religion ". It's like demonizing the thrifty savers when someone gambled himself into debt. " money control ". People like Obama who demonize the responsible... I see them as quite the threat to society.

True. My credit card company demonizes me as a 'deadbeat' because I don't pay interest on a large balance.

"Dey's too much demonizin' goin' on roun' heah."
 
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TLK Valentine

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I'll place a bet....
My bet is that when another person decides they want to die and take as many people with them as possible and then go to a "gun free zone" to do just that, the liberal politicians and news personalities will blame the gun owning and law abiding citizens for wanting to retain the freedoms they now have, rather than give them up in order to satisfy those who want to take away those freedoms out of an emotional response to "do something".

If they don't do it in a gun free zone, is the bet still on?
 
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bhsmte

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In a mental health newsletter, I have read that mental health professionals know that medication can not cure a personality disorder.

A physical substance can not change a person's spiritual nature. Only God can. So, if secular people operate from the premise that there is only physical existence and no spiritual beings and therefore no spiritual-level character, then they can not effectively diagnose people so they can know the real problem and how to cure it. Only God is able to cure us at the spiritual roots of our emotional troubles and personality torments, for example 1 John 4:17.

It depends what psychological issue the patient has, as to whether medication will be helpful.

You mention personality disorders and medication, is not often prescribed for these disorders, such as borderline personality disorder, because the abnormal behavior, is typically not driven by chemical issues in the brain.

For other psychological disorders, medications can be extremely helpful, as they do correct chemical imbalances, that are the main cause of abnormal behaviors.
 
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rambot

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This is really something. They actually have the nerve to demonize law abiding, responsible people. " clinging to their guns and religion ". It's like demonizing the thrifty savers when someone gambled himself into debt. " money control ". People like Obama who demonize the responsible... I see them as quite the threat to society.
A lot of people who've carried out mass murders would have described thsemlves as "law abiding responsibe pople" and often were that very thing. Up until 10 minutes before they shot up a bunch of folks.

It's too bad those people don't see how thier attitude contributes to a problem (albeit as a "sin of omission").
 
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KarateCowboy

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A lot of people who've carried out mass murders would have described thsemlves as "law abiding responsibe pople" and often were that very thing. Up until 10 minutes before they shot up a bunch of folks.

It's too bad those people don't see how thier attitude contributes to a problem (albeit as a "sin of omission").
I know. And when a witch says she's not one, that's further proof, because it's exactly what you would expect a witch to say!
 
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