Why do people believe in a Rapture?

Short Timer said:

Here's something you need to learn.

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things,

1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

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Something that you call
"Haint"

Short Timer said:

Are you just going to toss Matt 22 and the Son marriage that Israel doesn't attend and the man cast down out as if it wasn't in the scriptures????

I see people do that all the time, anything they can't explain/understand, they just ignore it as if it wasn't in the scriptures.

Ho 6:2 After two days (5th,6th) will he revive us (Israel) in the third day (7th day) he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

Joh 4:40 So when the Samaritans (Gentiles/church) were come unto him, they besought him that he would tarry with them: and he abode there two days. (5th, 6th days)

Joh 4:43 Now after two days he departed thence, and went into Galilee.

Joh 2:1 And the third day (7th day) there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus (Israel) was there:

2 And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage.

Do you, or anyone else know anything about "Foreshadows/Prefigures"???

Do you know that a "Son" can't be married to his "Mother"??

1Co 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

Do you know what must happen before Israel can be Married to Jesus???

1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

The seven days
http://i18.tinypic.com/66c6f51.jpg



People who try to explain Revelation without having learned under the "Schoolmaster" of the OT, still aren't qualified to leave K1 and enter the first grade.

You can't explain or understand Revelation unless you've been through the OT first and understand it, that's where all the "symbols" used in Revelation are explained.

the sun became black, the moon became as blood;

Ge 37:9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.

10 And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I (Sun/Father/man) and thy mother (Moon/Mother/woman) and thy brethren (Stars/children of God) indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?

Joseph was a "prefigure" of Jesus, and this dream prefigured Israel one day bowing to Jesus.

But the dream tell us that the "SUN" represent the Man/Father, the Moon represents the woman/Mother, Stars=children of God.

God/Jesus are the Fathers, the "Sun" or "Light of the world".
Israel/Church is the "Moon" or Mother/bride of Christ

Now let's read that verse again.
the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

In case you haven't got it, I'll explain it,

the devil is going to "Black out" all preaching of the gospel, (Sun)
and the "Moon" (Israel) is going to be turned into blood, or into a bloodbath.

The OT is not just a "Schoolmaster" to teach Israel about Jesus, but to teach "Everyone" about the NT, especially Revelation.

The "Great light" created on the "Fourth day" and the "Moon" and "Stars", prefigures Jesus coming into the world on the "Fourth day".

Ge 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

Isa 9:2 The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.

Mt 4:16 The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.

And the second coming will be the same, the universe dark, Israel turned into a bloodbath, and people will see a "great light" coming like the "Sun", only it will be the "SON".

Nothing even close to what it will be at the time of the rapture, people eating/drinking/marrying/giving in marriage.

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Matthew 24:29-31, 38, 38 KJV
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. [38] For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, [38] For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

Dear brothers and sisters. Thank you all from what I have learned from this thread.

I do believe the Lord has us learn from one another. Not that we need man to teach us , but so we can learn to love and respect each other as His children unto perfection.

Ephesians 4:11-13 KJV
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; [12] For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: [13] Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

The thread is getting a little off for me at this time so I will bow out and keep you all in prayer. Thanks for the lessons but mostly for the fellowship.

iamlamad said:

The future 70th week is for DANIEL's people, not the church.

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Daniel 9: Dr. Kelly Varner

Bible2+ said:

There was a contrast between the Old Testament prophecies regarding the Messiah's/the Christ's coming, with some of them showing him coming to be meekly crucified for our sins (Isaiah 53, Psalms 22), and others showing him literally descending from heaven to wage war and to physically reign on the earth (Zechariah 14, Micah 4:1-4). But nothing in the Old or New Testament requires a future (to us), pre-tribulation coming of Christ versus only a post-tribulation coming of Christ. For all the as-yet-unfulfilled Old and New Testament prophecies regarding Christ's coming will be fulfilled at or sometime after his post-tribulation coming.

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Do you admit the Tribulation is the wrath of God? We are NOT appointed to wrath. To go through the wrath of God violates the New Testament.

Are you thinking of 1 Corinthians 15:51? If so, note that Paul didn't call the rapture-coming itself a mystery in 1 Corinthians 15:51, for Jesus had already taught the rapture-coming in the Gospels (John 14:3b, Matthew 24:30-31, Mark 13:26-27, cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:1). Instead, the mystery shown in 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 (cf. John 11:26) was the instantaneous changing of living believers into immortal physical bodies at the time dead believers will be resurrected into immortal physical bodies (1 Corinthians 15:51-54). It is only after this that the rapture (the catching up together/gathering together) of all believers will occur (1 Thessalonians 4:16b-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31, John 14:3b).

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The fact that Jesus would come both as a lion and lamb was a mystery in the Old Testament. The fact that His return will involve more than one visit to earth is something revealed in many places in Scripture. Since some do not even now know about it any more than some Jews in Jesus knew about how He would return, I think we can call both mysteries. The mystery Paul talked about happens to be about that time when Jesus comes back, and since some do not know it is not all one event, therefore a part of the mystery as I said.

Why do airliners go up at all? (I.e., to take people somewhere else.)

That is, the rapture will take believers up into the air wherever they are on the earth's surface. But this will be thousands of different places in the air, all around the globe. So then they need to be gathered together by angels (Mark 13:27; cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:1) to the one place in the air where Jesus will be, above Jerusalem, before he sets his feet on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4). For example, if a believer is raptured into the air above New Zealand, he will then need to be led by an angel over oceans and continents until he arrives above Jerusalem.

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That is your claim. Jesus said we would go to be with Him when He returned to the place He prepared, and that is unquestionably New Jerusalem in the heavens. Not over stinking present Jerusalem.

A 2nd purpose will be so that the church can then be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), and the obedient part of the church can then be married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), in the air, before Jesus descends to wage war against the armies of the unsaved world (Revelation 19:15-21).

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Hilarious! So now we are supposed to have billions of people hovering just above present day Jerusalem being judged!!!!

Funny, when I read about the wrath of God (that we ain't going through) and the very end phase of it...I see the sun OUT and no stars. You saying that the folks in the city of Jerusalem will have lots of light from Jesus having some rapid judgment of saints above it?? By the way Jesus is in heaven at this time isn't He when the wrath is coming down?

kingskid said:

Jesus is Lord and the following is a Born Again experience also known as Jacob's Trouble.

How can one say the born again experience will be gone?

No man comes unto the Father except through Jesus.

Jeremiah 30:1-24 KJV
The word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord , saying, [2] Thus speaketh the Lord God of Israel, saying, Write thee all the words that I have spoken unto thee in a book. [3] For, lo, the days come, saith the Lord , that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the Lord : and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it. [4] And these are the words that the Lord spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah. [5] For thus saith the Lord ; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace. [6] Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness? [7] Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. [8] For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him: [9] But they shall serve the Lord their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them. [10] Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the Lord ; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid. [11] For I am with thee, saith the Lord , to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished. [12] For thus saith the Lord , Thy bruise is incurable, and thy wound is grievous. [13] There is none to plead thy cause, that thou mayest be bound up: thou hast no healing medicines. [14] All thy lovers have forgotten thee; they seek thee not; for I have wounded thee with the wound of an enemy, with the chastisement of a cruel one, for the multitude of thine iniquity; because thy sins were increased. [15] Why criest thou for thine affliction? thy sorrow is incurable for the multitude of thine iniquity: because thy sins were increased, I have done these things unto thee. [16] Therefore all they that devour thee shall be devoured; and all thine adversaries, every one of them, shall go into captivity; and they that spoil thee shall be a spoil, and all that prey upon thee will I give for a prey. [17] For I will restore health unto thee, and I will heal thee of thy wounds, saith the Lord ; because they called thee an Outcast, saying , This is Zion, whom no man seeketh after. [18] Thus saith the Lord ; Behold, I will bring again the captivity of Jacob's tents, and have mercy on his dwellingplaces; and the city shall be builded upon her own heap, and the palace shall remain after the manner thereof. [19] And out of them shall proceed thanksgiving and the voice of them that make merry: and I will multiply them, and they shall not be few; I will also glorify them, and they shall not be small. [20] Their children also shall be as aforetime, and their congregation shall be established before me, and I will punish all that oppress them. [21] And their nobles shall be of themselves, and their governor shall proceed from the midst of them; and I will cause him to draw near, and he shall approach unto me: for who is this that engaged his heart to approach unto me? saith the Lord . [22] And ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. [23] Behold, the whirlwind of the Lord goeth forth with fury, a continuing whirlwind: it shall fall with pain upon the head of the wicked. [24] The fierce anger of the Lord shall not return, until he have done it , and until he have performed the intents of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it.

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How can one say the born again experience will be gone?
No man comes unto the Father except through Jesus.

Did anyone come to God in the Old Testament? You know the answer. OF COURSE they did. And Jesus was not yet risen and there was NO "born again" experience. No man can come unless the Holy Spirit draws them.

Psalm3704 said in post 3023:

God currently does not judge anyone because He gave that power to Christ.....for now.

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Note that nothing in the Bible says that John 5:22 is only for now, and not forever.

Psalm3704 said in post 3023:

Do you see the word God in [Rev 20] verse 12? It means the Father.

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Actually, "God" in Revelation 20:12 refers to Jesus (John 5:22), just as "God" in Revelation 21:6-7 refers to Jesus (cf. Revelation 22:12-13, Revelation 1:7-8, John 20:28, John 21:5), and "God" in Revelation 22:6-7 refers to Jesus (cf. Revelation 22:16).

Short Timer said in post 3030:

Scripture doesn't use the word resurrection to describe the rapture . . .

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1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again [anistemi], even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise [anistemi] first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Note that in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 (like in John 6:39,40,44,54), the original Greek word (anistemi: G0450) translated as "rise" is the same word used to refer to Jesus' physical resurrection from the grave on the 3rd day after his death in 1 Thessalonians 4:14, as well as in Romans 14:9, Mark 8:31, Mark 9:9,31, Mark 10:34, Mark 16:9a, Luke 18:33, Luke 24:7,46, Acts 10:41, Acts 13:34, and Acts 17:3,31.

That is, 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 means that the physical bodies of the dead in Christ will be resurrected from their graves at Jesus' 2nd coming, just as Jesus' own physical body was resurrected from his grave at his 1st coming, on the 3rd day after his death (Luke 24:39,46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4,21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Romans 8:23-25).

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Short Timer said in post 3036:

God was married to Israel, the woman who gave birth to the man child Jesus . . .

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Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Note that in Revelation 12:5, the "man child" isn't Jesus. For Revelation 12:5 isn't about past things, but is part of the "things which must be hereafter" (Revelation 4:1b). Revelation chapters 11-14 show from 4 different angles what will happen right before the start and during the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5-8, Revelation 14:9-13), which will be in the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

Regarding Revelation 12:5 saying "who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron": Along with Jesus (Revelation 19:15, Psalms 2:9), the whole obedient church will rule the nations with a rod of iron (Revelation 2:26-29) on the earth (Revelation 5:10) during the future millennium (Revelation 20:4-6). Before the millennium, during the tribulation, at its midpoint, the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church will be caught up physically to the throne of God in heaven (Revelation 14:1,4,5, Textus Receptus) as the "man child" (Revelation 12:5-6), and as the firstfruits of the church (Revelation 14:4), in the sense of its best part (cf. Numbers 18:12).

Short Timer said in post 3036:

God was married to Israel, the woman who gave birth to the man child Jesus . . .

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The woman in Revelation 12 represents the church (which is Israel: Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). She is clothed with the sun (Revelation 12:1) of righteousness (Malachi 4:2) through her faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22), just as later we see the church clothed with righteousness (Revelation 19:8). The moon under her feet (Revelation 12:1) represents Satan under her feet (Romans 16:20) as she overcomes him spiritually by her faith in Jesus (Revelation 12:11). The crown of 12 stars on her head (Revelation 12:1) represents the 12 apostles (of Matthew 10:2-4, Acts 1:16-26), who have been placed over the church (1 Corinthians 12:28).

Her giving birth to the "man child", and his being caught up to the throne of God (Revelation 12:5) immediately before she flees into the wilderness for a literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6), represents the future, mid-tribulation catching up of the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church in their mortal bodies to the throne of God in heaven (Revelation 14:1,4,5, Textus Receptus), like how Enoch and Elijah were caught up in their mortal bodies to heaven (Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:11).

Her fleeing into and remaining in a protected wilderness place for a literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6,14) represents those in the church who will flee into and remain in divinely-protected wilderness places during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), which will be in the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

The remnant of her seed (Revelation 12:17) represents those in the church during that time who won't flee into wilderness places, but will remain in the cities, and will be persecuted in every nation, imprisoned, and beheaded by the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Also, Genesis 37:9-10 isn't (as is sometimes claimed) being referred to in Revelation 12:1. For in Revelation 12:1, the church/Israel isn't clothed with the man Jacob (Genesis 37:9-10), but with the sun of righteousness (Malachi 4:2), through her faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22), just as later we see the church/Israel clothed with righteousness (Revelation 19:8, cf. also Revelation 21:2,9,12). Also, the church/Israel doesn't have the woman Rachel under her feet (Genesis 37:9-10), but Satan (Romans 16:20), as the church/Israel overcomes him spiritually by her faith in Jesus (Revelation 12:11). And the church/Israel doesn't have Jacob's 12 sons placed over her (Genesis 37:9-10), but the 12 apostles (1 Corinthians 12:28, Matthew 10:2, Acts 1:26), each one of whom will rule over one of her 12 tribes (Matthew 19:28, Luke 22:30).

dad said in post 3045:

Do you admit the Tribulation is the wrath of God? We are NOT appointed to wrath.

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1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep [live or die], we should live together with him.

Note that 1 Thessalonians 5:9 refers only to that wrath which is opposed to salvation, which is God's wrath (John 3:36). Even obedient saved people can suffer the wrath of Satan, which doesn't affect their salvation (Revelation 12:17, Revelation 2:10). For even if they are killed by Satan, this is no loss for them, but gain, for it brings their still-conscious souls into heaven to be with Jesus (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8). Also, 1 Thessalonians 5:9a applies to anyone who obtains salvation (1 Thessalonians 5:9b), and no matter whether they live or die (1 Thessalonians 5:10).

Also, note that nothing requires that the entire future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 will be God's wrath, or that any part of the tribulation that will be his wrath will be directed against any of the saved people (1 Thessalonians 5:9) who will still be alive on the earth at that time (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Most of the tribulation could be only Satan's wrath working through evil people and natural forces to bring disaster on the earth, like when Satan was allowed to work through evil people and natural forces to bring disaster on righteous Job (Job 1:12-20), against whom God had no wrath.

The tribulation's first 5 seals (Revelation 6:1-11) won't be God's wrath or judgment, for after the first 4 seals, the martyrs of the 5th seal ask God when he is going to bring his judgment against the world (Revelation 6:10). And the killing of even more martyrs, which the 5th seal foretells will happen sometime after the 5th seal (Revelation 6:11), won't be God's wrath against those martyrs. So Jesus' unsealing of the seals (Revelation 6), the tribulation's first stage, doesn't mean the events unsealed will be God's wrath, but that they will be permitted by God to happen at that time.

The tribulation's 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-14) will happen sometime before the day of the Lord (Joel 2:31, Revelation 6:12), as in only a few years before. The day of the Lord itself won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't happen until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). Similarly, the day of the Lord's wrath (Psalms 110:5) won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19-21).

So the people quoted at the 6th seal (Revelation 6:17), during only the first stage of the tribulation, could be just as mistaken as Job was when Job said that what was happening to him was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11). Just as what was happening to Job was actually Satan's wrath against him, not God's wrath, so the 6th seal could actually be Satan's wrath, not God's wrath. And just as the writer of the book of Job didn't go out of his way to correct Job's mistaken statement in Job 19:11, and just as the apostles John and Matthew didn't go out of their way to correct the mistaken statements of the people they quoted in John 7:12b and Matthew 27:63a, so the apostle John could have not gone out of his way to correct the statement of the people he quoted in Revelation 6:17.

After the tribulation's 6th seal will occur its 7th seal (Revelation 8:1), out of which will come its 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-2). Note that nothing requires that any of the first 6 trumpets' events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will be God's wrath. The 5th trumpet's events will be the work of strange locust-like beings from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:2-10), led by a fallen angel from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:11). And the 6th trumpet's events to the end of Revelation 9 will be the work of weird horse-like beings led by 4 fallen angels previously bound at the Euphrates (Revelation 9:14-19). So even though good angels of God will sound the first 6 trumpets, this could be announcing God's allowing the wrath of Satan to destroy 1/3 of different things (Revelation 8:7-12, Revelation 9:15,18), just as Satan will subsequently, mid-tribulation, be allowed by God to cause 1/3 of the angels (i.e. his fallen angels) to be cast down to the earth permanently (Revelation 12:4,9).

Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will happen before the Antichrist's (the individual-man aspect of the beast's) future, literal 3.5-year worldwide Luciferian/Satanic reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). And the events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 could be used by Satan to help prepare the world to welcome that reign. For what he could do is first take great pleasure in causing the destruction in each event, but then claim that the destruction isn't from him, but from YHWH, and that YHWH is a cruel tyrant god who hates mankind and only wants to make it suffer, while he (Satan, as "Lucifer") only wants the best for mankind (cf. Mark 8:33b). In this way, he could deceive the world into turning away from YHWH and instead worshipping him (the dragon) and the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). The Antichrist will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36).

After the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year reign (Revelation 13:5-7) is declared legally over at the sounding of the tribulation's 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the 7 plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath will come out of the heavenly-temple opening of the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1). The vials will then be poured out on the Antichrist's followers as God's judgment for their receiving the Antichrist's mark and worshipping his image (Revelation 16:2), and for their killing of people in the church (Revelation 16:6-7, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

During the Antichrist's worldwide reign, people in the church will be hated and killed in every nation for refusing to renounce the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the witness of Jesus Christ (Revelation 20:4), for refusing to accept the antichrist lies that Jesus himself isn't the Christ (1 John 2:22), and that Christ himself isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the sound doctrine of the Bible, the Word of God (Revelation 20:4; 2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4), for refusing to depart from the Biblical faith and to give heed instead to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils (1 Timothy 4:1-2). They will be beheaded for refusing to worship the Antichrist's image (Revelation 20:4, Revelation 13:15). And all of this will be Satan's wrath against the church (Revelation 12:17), not God's wrath, for the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

Even when God's wrath comes in the 7 vials (Revelation 16), the tribulation's final stage, because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), none of the vials will be directed at any of those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have prepared for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had prepared for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:11,13).

Jesus will return right after the 7th-and-last vial is completed (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21, Matthew 24:29-30), and he will bring the 2nd-coming wrath of God on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:15-21). But before that 2nd-coming wrath begins, the church will be caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and the world's armies (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

dad said in post 3045:

Jesus said we would go to be with Him when He returned to the place He prepared, and that is unquestionably New Jerusalem in the heavens.

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John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Note that there is no pre-tribulation idea in John 14:3, just as there is no "take you back" (somewhere). Instead, there is only a coming again of Jesus (i.e. his 2nd coming), and then a receiving of the church unto himself. Also, the pre-tribulation rapture view can't (as is sometimes done) claim that the rapture is referred to only by Paul, and then admit that John 14:3 refers to the rapture.

John 14:2 means that one of the reasons Jesus left was to prepare a place for the church in the literal city of New Jerusalem, God the Father's house in heaven (Revelation 21:2-3). John 14:3 means Jesus' leaving to prepare a place for the church means he is not done with the church, but will come back to it. John 14:3 means the church will be received to Jesus where he will be first at his 2nd coming, which will be in the sky (1 Thessalonians 4:17), before he lands on the earth at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:30-31, Zechariah 14:3-21), which won't occur until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

The church will live in its place in New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:24 to 22:5) on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-3) sometime after the millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15). For during the millennium, the physically resurrected church will be ruling on the present earth with the returned Jesus (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Zechariah 14:3-21).

Also, the church has already come to God the Father's house, New Jerusalem, which is currently in heaven, in the spiritual sense of coming under the New Covenant (Hebrews 12:22-24, Galatians 4:24-26, Matthew 26:28). Also, the souls of obedient people in the church go to God the Father's house when they die, for their still-conscious souls go into heaven to be with Jesus when they die (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8). And they go into paradise (Luke 23:43), which is in heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2b,4), in the city of New Jerusalem (Revelation 2:7 and Revelation 22:2).

dad said in post 3045:

Jesus said we would go to be with Him when He returned to the place He prepared, and that is unquestionably New Jerusalem in the heavens. Not over stinking present Jerusalem.

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Regarding "stinking present Jerusalem", note that God still has regard for the land of Israel (as in Deuteronomy 32:43,49b), and Jerusalem especially (as in Isaiah 62:6-7, Psalms 122:6). For even during the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:5-18), the earthly Jerusalem will still be considered by God to be the holy city (Revelation 11:2, Luke 21:24), the holy mountain (Daniel 11:45, Daniel 9:16). And after the tribulation, at Jesus' 2nd coming, it will be to the Mount of Olives just east of the walled Old City of Jerusalem that Jesus will descend (Zechariah 14:4-21, Acts 1:11-12). And then Jesus will rule the whole earth from the earthly Jerusalem during the millennium (Micah 4:1-4, Zechariah 14:8-11,16-21, Revelation 20:4-6).

Also, note that if even those who are "strangers" in Israel can inherit the land of Israel (Ezekiel 47:21-23), then certainly believing Gentiles, who are "no more strangers" to Israel (Ephesians 2:12,19), will inherit the land of Israel during the future millennium of Revelation 20:4-6. And they will inherit the land and all the other promises given to Israel (Ephesians 2:12,19, Ephesians 3:6, Galatians 3:29, Genesis 12:7) along with all the elect Jews who have ever been saved in the past or who will get saved in our future, including at Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 12:10-14, Romans 11:25-32).

For all those in the church, whether Jews or Gentiles, are spiritually Abraham's seed (Galatians 3:29). And Abraham's seed is Israel (Isaiah 41:8, Romans 11:1; 2 Chronicles 20:7). So the entire church is Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). Not just the Jews in the church (e.g. Romans 11:1b), but also the Gentiles in the church, are spiritually Abraham's seed of promise (Romans 9:7,8,24), as Isaac was (Galatians 4:28), and as Jesus is (Galatians 3:16,29). And so Gentiles in the church, along with Jews in the church, are heirs of all the promises made by God to Israel (Ephesians 3:6, Ephesians 2:12,19, Romans 15:27, Galatians 3:29b, Romans 11:17,24).

Similarly, just as all believers are individual branches in the vine which is Jesus (John 15:5), the only way to salvation (John 14:6, Acts 4:12), so all believers are individual branches in the good olive tree of Israel, the Jews' own tree (Romans 11:17,24, Jeremiah 11:16-17). For all Jewish believers remain part of Israel (Romans 11:1) as the natural branches in the tree of Israel (Romans 11:24). And all Gentile believers have been grafted as branches from a wild olive tree into the tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), so they can partake of the salvation of the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). This doesn't mean that a wild branch becomes a natural branch, that a Gentile believer becomes a genetic Jew, but that Gentile believers, even while remaining branches from a wild olive tree, even while remaining genetic Gentiles, are still grafted in to become part of the good olive tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24).

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Also, Jesus' kingdom is Israel (John 1:49, John 12:13-15, John 19:19, Luke 22:30). And at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will sit on the earthly throne of David (Luke 1:32-33, Isaiah 9:7), and restore the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6-7, Acts 3:20-21). Jesus is, in his humanity, the son of David (Matthew 1:1, Matthew 21:15-16, Romans 1:3), of the house of David (Luke 1:69). So at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will restore the tabernacle, the house, of David (Isaiah 16:5, Amos 9:11) to its royal glory (2 Samuel 5:12), which it had lost (2 Kings 17:21a). And Jesus will fulfill the prophecy and prayer of 2 Samuel 7:16-29. And he will bring salvation to all the still-living, unbelieving elect Jews of the house of David. For they (along with all other still-living, unbelieving elect Jews) will come into faith in him when they see him at his 2nd coming (Zechariah 12:10-14, Zechariah 13:1,6, Romans 11:26-31). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, for now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

After Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, Zechariah 14:3-5) will occur the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Zechariah 14:8-21), during which time the Gentile nations will come to seek the returned Jesus ruling the whole earth (Zechariah 8:22, Zechariah 14:9, Psalms 72:8-11) on the restored throne of David (Isaiah 9:7) in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 2:1-4, Zechariah 14:8-11,16-19). And the physically resurrected church will reign on the earth with Jesus during the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). For the church is Israel (Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10).

Bible2+ said:

Actually, "God" in Revelation 20:12 refers to Jesus (John 5:22), just as "God" in Revelation 21:6-7 refers to Jesus (cf. Revelation 22:12-13, Revelation 1:7-8, John 20:28, John 21:5), and "God" in Revelation 22:6-7 refers to Jesus (cf. Revelation 22:16).

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Instead of John 21:5 is Revelation 21:5 meant (typo)?

John 14: 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Jesus promised to go prepare a place for us.


Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Here is the place He prepared for us.


The reason pretrib can’t accept the plain truth and wording of scripture is because they have put themselves in a preconceived idea box that they cannot get out of without interpreting many passages of scripture out of existence. Ex. Matt 24:29-31 2 Thess 1:1-8. I challenge anyone to look at all of the passages that describe the coming of the Lord and find just 2 that are identical in every word and nuance. They are all divided up into neat little piles pretrib over here and post trib over there. We must harmonize all scripture on a subject not divide them all up to make a new doctrine because wording is not identical. There is only one more coming of the Lord yet unfulfilled and one more resurrection of the righteous dead. Someone take my challenge show us just 2 pretrib rapture scriptures that are identical in wording.



Will someone please answer the question Bible 2+ raised in post #3050?

“Also, the pre-tribulation rapture view can't (as is sometimes done) claim that the rapture is referred to only by Paul, and then admit that John 14:3 refers to the rapture.”

kingskid said:

Dear brothers and sisters. Thank you all from what I have learned from this thread.

I do believe the Lord has us learn from one another. Not that we need man to teach us , but so we can learn to love and respect each other as His children unto perfection.

Ephesians 4:11-13 KJV
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; [12] For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: [13] Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

The thread is getting a little off for me at this time so I will bow out and keep you all in prayer. Thanks for the lessons but mostly for the fellowship.

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You don't graduate from sucking on the milk bottle to eating meat, by refuse the meat when it's offer to you.

Heb 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

iamlamad said:

How can one say the born again experience will be gone?
No man comes unto the Father except through Jesus.

Did anyone come to God in the Old Testament? You know the answer. OF COURSE they did. And Jesus was not yet risen and there was NO "born again" experience. No man can come unless the Holy Spirit draws them.

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Is it the Holy Spirit drawing people, or a "hole" in man's creation that man try to fill up with the things of this world,

The lust of the eye/flesh is never satisfied, if it owned the whole world, it would still be looking to "Gain more".

Man is always "searching for something" that will satisfy, something that will fill up that hole inside of him.

Spirit or no spirit, if man don't hear about some god he can worship, he'll split a log down the middle, burn one half, whittle himself an image of a god out of the other half and worship it.

The majority of people in the world believe in some kind of god, Calvin's theory that man won't come to God/or any god unless drawn by the Holy spirit is wrong.

It's this "hole" inside of man that causes him to create some kind of god to fill up that hole, because deep down inside of a person they know only God can fill that hole,

it's just a matter of getting them to believe the only God that is alive and has eyes/ears to see/hear/help.

Short Timer said:

Every place the word resurrection is used, people are "Back on the earth, alive", after having left, died/rapture.

Scripture doesn't use the word resurrection to describe the rapture because they are not "Back on earth", but go directly to heaven,

When they return to the earth with Jesus, they are "Resurrected", but come from Heaven, not a grave.

People use the word Resurrection to describe the rapture, but scripture doesn't, which is why the second coming, with all his saint is the "First Resurrection".

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Here is what the scripture says, not people.

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
1 Thessalonians 4:17

Jesus does not leave the right hand of God in heaven to return to earth, just to make a U-Turn and go back to heaven.

That is not found anywhere in scripture.

That is just false doctrine.

He comes from heaven, with His saints, (those who have died and gone to heaven), to earth to Gather His people on the last Day, for the Resrrection/Rapture, and to destroy and remove the wicked.

"Caught up together with them", is both unmistakable and irrefutable language that tells us the Resurrection and Rapture happen together as one event.

caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air...

Leaves no room for some fantasy "rapture" that occurs 7 years prior.

The Raptured ones are caught up together with the Resurrected ones..,

One Event that happens at His Coming.


JLB

Postvieww said:

John 14: 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Jesus promised to go prepare a place for us.


Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Here is the place He prepared for us.


The reason pretrib can’t accept the plain truth and wording of scripture is because they have put themselves in a preconceived idea box that they cannot get out of without interpreting many passages of scripture out of existence. Ex. Matt 24:29-31 2 Thess 1:1-8. I challenge anyone to look at all of the passages that describe the coming of the Lord and find just 2 that are identical in every word and nuance. They are all divided up into neat little piles pretrib over here and post trib over there. We must harmonize all scripture on a subject not divide them all up to make a new doctrine because wording is not identical. There is only one more coming of the Lord yet unfulfilled and one more resurrection of the righteous dead. Someone take my challenge show us just 2 pretrib rapture scriptures that are identical in wording.



Will someone please answer the question Bible 2+ raised in post #3050?

“Also, the pre-tribulation rapture view can't (as is sometimes done) claim that the rapture is referred to only by Paul, and then admit that John 14:3 refers to the rapture.”

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Nice try - in that you got the same city in both verses and certainly a city "prepared." Your only problem is TIME. It seems posttribbers have a serious problem with TIME...as if it did not exist - as if all of Revelation happened at the same time.

Like it or not, God did not and will not set any appointment for you with His wrath. You are doing your very best to set your OWN appointment. Did you ever notice that this verse was penned by Paul in the rapture passage of scripture? In other words, the resurrection/rapture has SOMETHING to do with us not having to show up or be here (appointment) when God's wrath begins. Also note that Paul mentions the "Day of the Lord" in his rapture passage, just as if the DAY and WRATH had something to do with each other and with the rapture. The truth is, the rapture DOES have something to do with the DAY and with His WRATH. The resurrection/rapture is the TRIGGER for the day.

All this proves that the rapture will take place at the 6th seal. Like it or not, the 6th seal will be opened over 7 years before Jesus comes on the white horse, and over 1000 and 7 years before the great city comes down from heaven.

The bride is not going to hang around in the clouds for a thousand years, and neither is she going to hang around in the clouds for 7 years. It's all in the TIMING: The timing of John 14 is Paul's RAPTURE time. John wrote "if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." Can anyone find anything about a catching up and transformation here from mortality into immortality? This is not really a "rapture" verse. It is a DIRECTION verse. It tells us where Jesus will go from the AIR after the gathering. John wrote this write after Jesus had said that He was going away to a place they could not follow. Peter had ask, "why can't I follow? I am ready to die for you," and Jesus told Peter he would deny Him three times. So John 14 in context is about Jesus leaving planet earth. We KNOW when He rose from the dead, He went back to heaven (after 40 days). Heaven us where He prepared places for us.

Then Paul also wrote:
Romans 5:9
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
1 Thessalonians 1:10
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

John wrote:
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Then add to that the fact that it will be the time of the 70th week of Daniel - a time prepare for DANIEL'S people, not the church.

All I can say further is, if you all want to set your own appointment, go ahead. While you all are dying of thirst, starving and losing your head, the BRIDE will be saved from His wrath, DELIVERED from it, and KEPT from it, simply because God did not set any appointments and the bride of Christ is wise enough not to set her OWN appointment.

Bible2+ said:

That is, 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 means that the physical bodies of the dead in Christ will be resurrected from their graves at Jesus' 2nd coming, just as Jesus' own physical body was resurrected from his grave at his 1st coming, on the 3rd day after his death (Luke 24:39,46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4,21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Romans 8:23-25).

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How are saints going to be coming with Jesus if they are in a grave waiting for him to come??

Nobody is resurrected from a grave in the second coming. "ALL" saints who have left this earth return with Jesus, angels cast the tares into hell with the unsaved dead who stay dead until the GWT.

Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Note that in Revelation 12:5, the "man child" isn't Jesus.

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"Man Child" is singular, if it includes all these other people it should have said "Men children", plural.
The "Spirit" doesn't make that kind of mistake "inspiring".

Let's see what the scripture have to say.

Jer 3:14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you:

Jer 3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

Isa 50:1 Thus saith the LORD, Where is the bill of your mother's divorcement, whom I have put away?

Mr 10:12 And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.

Jer 3:1 They say, If a man put away his wife, and she go from him, and become another man's, (wife) shall he return unto her again? shall not that land be greatly polluted? but thou hast played the harlot with many lovers; yet return again to me, saith the LORD.

Mt 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king,(God) which made a marriage for his son,(Jesus)

3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they (Israel) would not come.

1Co 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

God was married to Israel, divorced her and now wants her to be married to another, even the Son she gave birth too.

and then said all of that was adultery/fornication.

Anyone who knows the scriptures could answer or at least figure it out rather quickly,

and in the answer is the reason the church has no part in the trib, but only Israel.

You, or anyone, want to explain it???

kingskid said:

Something that you call
"Haint"

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Yep, I'm not a "Believer" in "Haint", I've had too "evidence" to just "Believe",
especially in this one particular "Haint".

JLB777 said:

Here is what the scripture says, not people.

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
1 Thessalonians 4:17

Jesus does not leave the right hand of God in heaven to return to earth, just to make a U-Turn and go back to heaven.

That is not found anywhere in scripture.

That is just false doctrine.

He comes from heaven, with His saints, (those who have died and gone to heaven), to earth to Gather His people on the last Day, for the Resrrection/Rapture, and to destroy and remove the wicked.

"Caught up together with them", is both unmistakable and irrefutable language that tells us the Resurrection and Rapture happen together as one event.

caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air...

Leaves no room for some fantasy "rapture" that occurs 7 years prior.

The Raptured ones are caught up together with the Resurrected ones..,

One Event that happens at His Coming.


JLB

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Nice try, JLB, but your theory is full of holes. You wrote, THAT IS NOT FOUND ANYWHERE IN SCRIPTURE. Perhaps you should have written, "I can't find that anywhere." The problem is, thick precconceived glasses! You have a theory that prevents you from seeing what you declare is not written. John 14 gives us the DIRECTION Jesus takes from the AIR. He comes to get His bride, and returns back to heaven with His bride. He made our mansions IN HEAVEN, not on earth.

By the way, WHERE IS JESUS when the 6th and 7th seals are broken? WHERE IS JESUS when the 7 trumpets are sounded? WHERE IS JESUS when the vials are poured out? Jesus REMAINS IN HEAVEN during the entire 70th week. John 14 tells us we will be WITH HIM after He comes and gets us. You want John 14 to say that Jesus prepares mansions, but just don't take us there. Sorry, that is not the intent of the Author. Of course "U-turn" is not found in scripture as you wrote it, but the IDEA is certainly in scripture.

Next, you ignore all the scriptures telling us we will not have anything to do with God's wrath, and then SET YOUR OWN APPOINTMENT. Personally, I don't show up in a place that requires an appointment - if I don't have an appointment.

"caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air...
Leaves no room for some fantasy "rapture" that occurs 7 years prior."

WRONG! The "caught up" happens when Paul tells us it happens: as the TRIGGER for the Day of the Lord and the START of His wrath: which points straight to the 6th seal. Some posttribbers see this, so have to move the 6th seal to the end, so it fits with their theory.

I will admit you are right: this event does happen at His coming; just not his coming on the white horse. OF COURSE He "comes" to the air. Paul called it a coming of Christ.

Short Timer said:

"Man Child" is singular, if it includes all these other people it should have said "Men children", plural.
The "Spirit" doesn't make that kind of mistake "inspiring". Resurrection and coming are singular too. What should we learn from that Spirit inspired fact?