Why do people believe in a Rapture?

iamlamad said:

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

You are right, they are not in heaven, they are on earth, but in resurrection bodies. Good point! I was in error there. Thanks for pointing that out. "they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years" is proof. His reign will be on earth.

“There is no time information given as to WHEN they were resurrected” This is true. John does not give us that information in Rev. 20. That was my intended meaning, NO TIME GIVEN in Rev. 20. I should have made that clearer.
it is the CHURCH - having been resurrected and caught up before the "trib" I base this on other scriptures, not on Rev. 20

Now we have a “Primary or Chief” resurrection, that demands at least a secondary and possibly a third or forth.
You are stretching. Actually, there WILL BE another: John tells us there are TWO resurrections, one for the righteous and one for the unrighteous. The first of the two is the primary one, being for the righteous. Do you disagree? I guess not.

Since there ARE only two, one for the righteous and one for the sinner, then ALL HUMANS must fit into one or the other. Do you wish to put Jesus into the "second death" resurrection? I don't think so. No, He was the FIRSTFRUITS of the "first" or primary resurrection.

You know as well as I do that John tells us the second death resurrection will be 1000 years after the primary resurrection for the righteous. How does that fit with your statement " Daniel wrote of only one Dan 12:2 & 13 at the time of troube, at the end of days. Jesus wrote of only one John 6:39,40,44 & 54 at the last day"

Can you understand that Daniel and Jesus were summarizing - not giving specifics? When we get to Rev. 20, we get all the facts: two resurrections with 1000 years between them.

If you look west from Burlington Colorado on a clear day, you see the frontal range of mountains. For all you know, they may be only a few miles in depth, east to west. However, when you start up into them on Hwy 70, by the time you get to Copper Mountain, you see there was a whole lot of "mountain" you could not see from Burlington. It is that was with prophecy. From 500 years away, God does not give all the details. John gave us details. Does this make what Daniel wrote "wrong?" No! Daniel did not see the 1000 years between the resurrection of the righteous and the resurrection of the sinner.

What I want to know is, since I know that you know about the 1000 years, why you would you write what you did? Do you not believe John about the 1000 years?

Click to expand...

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


You are right, they are not in heaven, they are on earth, but in resurrection bodies. Good point! I was in error there. Thanks for pointing that out. "they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years" is proof. His reign will be on earth.


“There is no time information given as to WHEN they were resurrected” This is true. John does not give us that information in Rev. 20. That was my intended meaning, NO TIME GIVEN in Rev. 20. I should have made that clearer.

it is the CHURCH - having been resurrected and caught up before the "trib" I base this on other scriptures, not on Rev. 20


Now we have a “Primary or Chief” resurrection, that demands at least a secondary and possibly a third or forth.

You are stretching. Actually, there WILL BE another: John tells us there are TWO resurrections, one for the righteous and one for the unrighteous. The first of the two is the primary one, being for the righteous. Do you disagree? I guess not.

I do agree with your above statement. I believe you understand which resurrection I do not agree with.


Since there ARE only two, one for the righteous and one for the sinner, then ALL HUMANS must fit into one or the other. Do you wish to put Jesus into the "second death" resurrection? I don't think so. No, He was the FIRSTFRUITS of the "first" or primary resurrection.


You know as well as I do that John tells us the second death resurrection will be 1000 years after the primary resurrection for the righteous. How does that fit with your statement " Daniel wrote of only one Dan 12:2 & 13 at the time of troube, at the end of days. Jesus wrote of only one John 6:39,40,44 & 54 at the last day"

I should have added “for the righteous dead”, many times I do add the phrase I did not here, my bad.


Can you understand that Daniel and Jesus were summarizing - not giving specifics? When we get to Rev. 20, we get all the facts: two resurrections with 1000 years between them.


I can agree with your statement here. Daniel did mention two, he did just not point out the 1000 years in between . What he did point out was that the first resurrection would be at the time of trouble and that would include all those that were found written in the book. What he did not point out were multiple resurrections for the righteous dead can we agree on that? What John wrote was the same thing only he pointed out the 1000 years between. What he did not do in this text is point out multiple, or phases for the righteous, can we agree on that?


If you look west from Burlington Colorado on a clear day, you see the frontal range of mountains. For all you know, they may be only a few miles in depth, east to west. However, when you start up into them on Hwy 70, by the time you get to Copper Mountain, you see there was a whole lot of "mountain" you could not see from Burlington. It is that was with prophecy. From 500 years away, God does not give all the details. John gave us details. Does this make what Daniel wrote "wrong?" No! Daniel did not see the 1000 years between the resurrection of the righteous and the resurrection of the sinner.


What I want to know is, since I know that you know about the 1000 years, why you would you write what you did? Do you not believe John about the 1000 years?

Did I clear up my position on this above? If not be more specific.


iamlamad, Yesterday at 11:35 PM Report#2962Like+

Short Timer said in post 2952:

Re 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud,(souls of saint) and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

Click to expand...

Revelation 14:14-16 refers to Jesus sitting on a single cloud in the 3rd heaven and reaping into the 3rd heaven (beginning mid-tribulation) the souls of those in the church who will be killed (Revelation 14:13) by the Antichrist during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), which will be during the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. They will be killed for refusing to worship the Antichrist and his image, and refusing to receive his mark (Revelation 14:9-16, cf. Revelation 15:2, Revelation 20:4-6).

That is, Revelation 14:12-13 refers to Christians in our future being patient and faithful to the point of death in not worshipping the Antichrist and his image, and not receiving his mark, knowing that if they do those things, they will be punished by God with eternal suffering (Revelation 14:9-13). But if they refuse to do those things, if they are then killed by the Antichrist, their still-conscious souls will be reaped by Jesus into the 3rd heaven (Revelation 14:14-16, Revelation 15:2). And they will later be resurrected into physical immortality along with the rest of the obedient church (of all times) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-53, Revelation 20:4-6), immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Before Jesus returns, Revelation 14:19-20 can refer to the Antichrist's killing of non-Christians who won't worship him (such as radical Muslims, ultra-Orthodox Jews, hardcore atheists, etc.) being God's wrath against those non-Christians. Revelation 14:20 could refer to when they get beheaded by the Antichrist (say, with one blow of a sword, while they are kneeling), their blood will shoot up from their necks like a geyser as high as a horse's bridle. Also, in Revelation 14:20, the city could be Jerusalem, and the 1,600 furlongs is about 200 miles, so that Revelation 14:19-20 could mean the Antichrist's beheading of people who won't worship him will begin at Jerusalem and the surrounding region, when he sits (at least one time) in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36), and has the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the temple (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31).

But when the Antichrist beheads Christians for not worshipping him (Revelation 20:4), this won't be God's wrath against those Christians, but Satan's wrath against them (Revelation 12:17).

Short Timer said in post 2952:

And that is the "Second "COMING" of Jesus, and the OT/deceased/church/martyred saints "ALL" come with him, he's not coming to rapture the church, the church is already with him.

Click to expand...

Note that Jesus' coming FOR the church and WITH the church will occur at the same 2nd coming. For 1 Thessalonians 3:13 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 show that at Jesus' 2nd coming, the souls of all obedient dead believers of all times will be brought down from the 3rd heaven with Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:14-15), and their souls will descend to the earth and their physical bodies will resurrect/rise from their graves (1 Thessalonians 4:16). Then they and all believers who will survive the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 on the earth (those who will still be "alive and remain") will be raptured up high into the air above the places all around the globe where they will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17a), and then they will be gathered together from the sky (the 1st heaven) all around the globe (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) to the one place in the sky/the clouds where the returned Jesus will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17b), which could be in the clouds (i.e. thousands of feet) above Jerusalem, before he descends to set his feet on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4-5, Acts 1:11-12).

It is because of this 2nd-coming rapture into the sky, and then the gathering to where in the sky Jesus will be (and then the marriage of the obedient part of the church there to Jesus: Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), that the obedient part of the church will already be with Jesus when he subsequently descends from the sky (the 1st heaven) to the earth (Revelation 19:14, Revelation 17:14, Zechariah 14:5c,4).

*******

Short Timer said in post 2956:

Revelation chapters are not in chronological order . . .

Click to expand...

Revelation chapters 6 to 22 are chronological insofar as the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will begin with the events of the 2nd through 6th seals, occurring in the order shown in Revelation 6:3-14. After the events of the 6th seal, Revelation 7 will occur. Then the 7th seal will be unsealed and out of it will come the tribulation's 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-6). Then the events of the first 6 trumpets in Revelation 8:7 to Revelation 9:21 will occur in the order shown there. Then Revelation 10 will occur. Then the literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign will occur, which time period is shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13).

Then the 7th trumpet will sound, announcing the legal end of the Antichrist's reign (Revelation 11:15). Out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening will come the 7 plagues of the 7 vials (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1), the tribulation's final stage. Then the events of the 7 vials will occur in the order shown in Revelation 16. Jesus will return right after the 7th vial (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21), and he will marry the church at that time (Revelation 19:7). Then he will defeat the world's armies (Revelation 19:11 to 20:3) and reign on the earth with the physically resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29; 1 Corinthians 15:51-53). Then the events of Revelation 20:7 to Revelation 22:5 will occur in the order shown there.

BABerean2 said in post 2967:

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
(First Resurrection)

Click to expand...

Note that while there is indeed the non-physical resurrection of initial salvation (e.g. Ephesians 2:5-6), the 1st resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 will be physical (cf. Romans 8:23). For Revelation 20:5 says "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished", meaning that the 1st resurrection will be the same, physical type of resurrection as will occur sometime after the 1,000 years (Revelation 20:7-15). For not every dead person is going to be non-physically resurrected in the sense of becoming saved (Revelation 20:15), and Revelation 20:5 means that the rest of the dead (i.e. all the non-church dead of all times) will be resurrected in the same manner that the church will be resurrected in Revelation 20:4-6, but the rest of the dead won't be resurrected until sometime after the 1,000 years.

Also, the 1st resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 will be physical because it won't occur until Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), and the resurrection of the church which will occur at Jesus' 2nd coming will be a physical resurrection, just like Jesus' physical resurrection on the 3rd day after his death (Luke 24:39,46; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-58, Philippians 3:20-21, Romans 8:23-25; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18).

BABerean2 said in post 2967:

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
(Second Resurrection)

Click to expand...

Regarding John 5:28-29, it wasn't until later (cf. John 16:12) that Jesus showed the apostle John that there will be 2 (still-unfulfilled) physical resurrections separated by 1,000 years (Revelation 20:5). John 5:28-29 can include both of these, for the original Greek word translated as "hour" doesn't have to mean a literal hour, but can refer figuratively to any period of time. For example, the last "hour" of 1 John 2:18 (original Greek) has been going on for the last 2,000 years. So the "hour" of everyone's still-future, physical resurrection (John 5:28-29) can easily span over a 1,000-year period (Revelation 20:5).

Also, at both the 1st and 2nd resurrection, some will undergo "the resurrection of life" while others will undergo "the resurrection of damnation" (John 5:29). For the 1st resurrection, at Jesus' never-fulfilled, 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16), before the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6), will be of all those who became Christians (1 Corinthians 15:21-23). And some of them will lose their salvation at the 2nd coming (e.g. Luke 12:45-46), so that their resurrection will be a "resurrection of damnation" (John 5:29), a resurrection "unto shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2), because of such things as unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30), or apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8).

The 2nd resurrection, at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15), after the future millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15), will include all those of all times who never became Christians, and all those who became Christians during the millennium (Isaiah 66:19-21). At the great white throne judgment, those Christians (of all times) who will lose their salvation, and so will have their names blotted out of the book of life (Revelation 3:5), will be cast into the everlasting punishment of the lake of fire along with all non-Christians (Revelation 20:15,10, Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 14:10-11, Mark 9:45-46).

iamlamad said in post 2970:

God gave Adam 6000 years and at the sounding of the 7th trumpet, the 6000 years will be FINISHED.

Click to expand...

Note that 6,000 years (in exact terms) could have ended over a century ago. For various scriptures make it possible to estimate the year BC that Adam (as opposed to the earth) was created, by working back from the year BC that Solomon's temple began to be built. Historians say that it began to be built about 966 BC. And the scriptures show that it began to be built 480 years after Israel's Exodus from Egypt (1 Kings 6:1). And Israel had spent 430 years in Egypt before the Exodus (Exodus 12:40-41). And Israel entered Egypt when Jacob was 130 (Genesis 47:9). And Jacob was born when his father Isaac was 60 (Genesis 25:26). And Isaac was born when his father Abraham was 100 (Genesis 21:5). And Abraham was born when his father Terah was about 70 (Genesis 11:26). And Terah was born when his father Nahor was 29 (Genesis 11:24). And Nahor was born when his father Serug was 30 (Genesis 11:22). And Serug was born when his father Reu was 32 (Genesis 11:20). And Reu was born when his father Peleg was 30 (Genesis 11:18).

And Peleg was born when his father Eber was 34 (Genesis 11:16). And Eber was born when his father Salah was 30 (Genesis 11:14). And Salah was born when his father Arphaxad was 35 (Genesis 11:12). And Arphaxad was born when his father Shem was 100 (Genesis 11:10). And Shem was born when his father Noah was 502 (Genesis 11:10 and Genesis 7:6). And Noah was born when his father Lamech was 182 (Genesis 5:28-29). And Lamech was born when his father Methuselah was 187 (Genesis 5:25). And Methuselah was born when his father Enoch was 65 (Genesis 5:21). And Enoch was born when his father Jared was 162 (Genesis 5:18). And Jared was born when his father Mahalaleel was 65 (Genesis 5:15). And Mahalaleel was born when his father Cainan was 70 (Genesis 5:12). And Cainan was born when his father Enos was 90 (Genesis 5:9). And Enos was born when his father Seth was 105 (Genesis 5:6). And Seth was born when his father Adam was 130 (Genesis 5:3).

Adding up the numbers of years above, we see that Adam was created about 4114 BC. This lines up with the fact that our current human civilization began about 4000 BC. If Adam was created about 4114 BC, this means that 6,000 years since Adam's creation were completed back at the end of about 1886 AD, and that the 7th millennium began about 1887 AD. (But this doesn't mean that the millennium of Revelation 20:4-6 has started yet.) Also, it is curious that the next year (1888 AD) Blavatsky published her book (The Secret Doctrine) referring to the "New Age". Also, it is curious that the Mayan calendar begins in 3114 BC, exactly 1,000 years after 4114 BC. Also, the numbers of years in the scriptures referenced above show that Abraham (who was first promised the land of Israel by God: Exodus 32:13) was born about 1,948 years after Adam's creation, just as the modern state of Israel was established in 1948 AD.

--

Regarding the claim above that our current human civilization began about 4000 BC (subsequent to Adam's creation about 4114 BC), by "civilization" is meant "the stage of cultural development at which writing and the keeping of written records is attained" (Webster's, a print-version). "The 4th millennium BC saw major changes in human culture. It marked the beginning of the Bronze Age and the invention of writing, which played a major role in starting recorded history. The city states of Sumer and the kingdom of Egypt were established and grew to prominence" (Wikipedia -- 4th millennium BC).

Regarding "civilization" being defined by Oxford Dictionaries as the "most advanced" stage of human social development and organization, our current human civilization (4th millennium BC to the present) is the most advanced stage of human social development and organization, compared to all known prehistoric (pre-4th millennium BC) stages.

--

Regarding the claim above that our current human civilization began about 4000 BC, by "current" is meant that civilization which began in the 4th millennium BC and continues on today, as opposed to any pre-Adamic human civilizations which may have existed from tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands of years ago.

If there were pre-Adamic civilizations, they could have reached as high a level of technology as our modern technology today. For the Bible says that "there is no new thing under the sun. Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us. There is no remembrance of former things" (Ecclesiastes 1:9-11). And even our future technology could have already been invented during past eons, for "that which is to be hath already been" (Ecclesiastes 3:15).

But all past-eons technology on the earth could have been obliterated by God, leaving no trace of it, just as all of our own technology today (and in our future) will eventually be obliterated by God, when "the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up" (2 Peter 3:10b). Here "earth" could mean just the surface of the earth, for the planet itself could continue on forever (Ecclesiastes 1:4, Psalms 104:5, Psalms 78:69b), so that the future "new earth" (2 Peter 3:13, Revelation 21:1) could mean a new surface of the earth.

--

Regarding the claim above that our current human civilization began about 4000 BC, by "human" is meant human civilization in general, as opposed to the civilization of any particular people (e.g. Aztec civilization).

Also, by "human" civilization is meant civilization started by humans as opposed to any non-human animals. For preceding the first human civilization, there could have been non-human, mammalian civilizations some 65 to 2 million years ago, started by, for example, intelligent horse-like creatures (cf. the strange horse-like creatures in Revelation 9:17-19). These could have rebelled against God and then been banished from this planet, and forced to live, perhaps, in underground bases on the far side of this planet's moon or on the next planet out from the sun. For the future army of 200 million weird horse-like creatures in Revelation 9:16-19 will have to come from somewhere.

Preceding the first mammalian civilization, there could have been reptilian civilizations some 250 to 65 million years ago, started by, for example, intelligent dinosaur/dragon creatures (cf. Satan being a dragon in Revelation 12:9).

And preceding the first reptilian civilization, there could have been amphibian civilizations some 350 to 250 million years ago, started by, for example, intelligent frog-like creatures, who could have rebelled against God and become unclean spirits (cf. the frog-like creatures/unclean spirits in Revelation 16:13-14).

And preceding the first amphibian civilization, there could have been insect civilizations some 450 to 350 million years ago, started by, for example, intelligent locust-like creatures (cf. the strange locust-like creatures in Revelation 9:3-10), who could have rebelled against God and been banished to a cavern deep underground (cf. the sealed pit in Revelation 9:1b-3,11).

--

Someone might ask: "But don't only humans have the hands required to build things and civilizations?"

The various strange creatures mentioned above could have human-like hands. For they aren't the same as the horses, locusts, frogs, etc. which we can see today. And the Bible shows that non-human creatures can have human-like hands (Ezekiel 1:5-14).

*******

iamlamad said in post 2971:

[Re: The 3rd heaven]

Yet, that is EXACTLY where Jesus went to prepare homes for us!

Click to expand...

But note that no scripture requires that believers will be raptured any higher than the clouds of the sky (the 1st heaven) to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). After that meeting, in which the church will be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), and the obedient part of the church will be married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7, Matthew 25:1-13), the obedient part of the church will come back down from the sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:15-21) to reign on the earth with him for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). After the 1,000 years and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), the obedient part of the church will live forever on the new earth with God the Father and Jesus in the literal city of New Jerusalem (Revelation chapters 21-22), where Jesus went to prepare eternal homes for us (John 14:2).

iamlamad said in post 2972:

Many will die at the battle of Armageddon: that is the harvest of the wicked, as well as the sheep and goat judgment . . .

Click to expand...

Actually, the sheep and goat judgment won't happen at the battle of Armageddon. For Matthew 25:31 doesn't mean that Matthew 25:32-46 (just as 2 Peter 3:10a doesn't mean that 2 Peter 3:10b) will happen immediately at Jesus' 2nd coming, only that it will happen sometime subsequent to his 2nd coming, at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15), after the future millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15).

Matthew 25:32-46 refers to when the "nations" will be finally-judged by their works at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:12-13), whereas at the 2nd coming, Jesus will finally-judge only those in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; Matthew 25:19-30). Also, Matthew 25:41,46 refers to when the unsaved of all times, whether Jews or Gentiles, will be sent into the everlasting punishment of the lake of fire and brimstone at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:15), whereas at the 2nd coming, only the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and his False Prophet will be cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 19:20). The saved "sheep" at the sheep/goat judgment will include those, whether Jews or Gentiles, who will become believers during the millennium (Isaiah 66:19-21). Matthew 25:34 refers to obedient believers inheriting the kingdom of God the Father on the new earth in New Jerusalem, the Father's house (Revelation 21:1-7, John 14:2).

*******

iamlamad said in post 2974:

God will not make an appointment for us with His wrath, but INSTEAD, we will get "salvation" and get raptured OUT.

Click to expand...

Note that Paul, like the rest of the Bible's writers, nowhere says the church will be delivered by rapture from the tribulation.

Instead, the Bible shows that Jesus won't come and gather together (rapture) the church until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). That is why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' 2nd coming and the physical resurrection of the church at that time (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Matthew 24:30-31 refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

So in 1 Thessalonians 5:9, when Paul uses the original Greek word (soteria: G4991) translated as "salvation", he can include just that, the "salvation" which believers obtain (Romans 1:16, Romans 10:9-10; 2 Timothy 3:15) despite any tribulation which they may experience (2 Corinthians 1:4-7; 2 Thessalonians 1:4, John 16:33), even unto death (1 Thessalonians 5:9-10, Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 14:12-13).

iamlamad said in post 2974:

Those NOT caught up and alive will face the "sudden destruction" beginning of The Day of the Lord.

Click to expand...

1 Thessalonians 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

1 Thessalonians 5:3 could include reference to when, near the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, at the 2 witnesses' death at the legal end of the Antichrist's 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 11:8,15, Revelation 13:5-18), the unsaved world will rejoice and make merry because it will then be free from the tormenting plagues from the 2 witnesses (Revelation 11:10,6). But little will the unsaved world realize that the plagues of the 7 vials of God's judgment and wrath will then be poured out upon it (Revelation 16). And then Jesus will return and bring the 2nd-coming judgment and wrath of God (Revelation 19:11 to 20:3).

The future day of the Lord (Christ) (2 Thessalonians 2:2) will begin at the Lord Jesus Christ's 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't occur until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, "immediately after" the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8), which is when the rapture (the gathering together) of the church will occur (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

******

iamlamad said in post 2976:

SHOW US THE VERSE or WORDS in 1 Thes 4 where Jesus comes down to earth.

Click to expand...

Note that nothing in 1 Thessalonians 4 says or requires Jesus won't at that same coming subsequently descend to the earth on a white horse, as in Revelation 19. And there is no explicit descent to the earth, or a white horse, in Matthew 24:30 either, but it is still the same 2nd coming as Revelation 19:7-21. And even in Revelation 19:7-21, there is no explicit descent to the earth, even though it is the same 2nd coming as Zechariah 14:3-5, which has no explicit white horse.

iamlamad said:

More nonsense! Satan is cast out of heaven at the sounding of the 7th trumpet

Click to expand...

Satan and the rest of the wicked angels were cast out a long time ago, as revealed by the following text.


2Pe_2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;


Jud_1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

.

iamlamad said:

An amazing revelation! Yet, others on this thread don't see it that way. They think God will leave the church on earth during the days of GT, and they will survive. God says differently: He says the Beast will have authority Over the saints. I believe Him.

Click to expand...

Iamlamad, I said the devil has no spiritual dominion. In other words he has no dominion over our hearts and spirit.

He has been killing Christians for ages.

BABerean2 said:

Satan and the rest of the wicked angels were cast out a long time ago, as revealed by the following text.


2Pe_2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;


Jud_1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

.

Click to expand...

Minus satan, you know these fallen angels will be judge by men someday right?






.

iamlamad said:

Let's rehearse what you wrote:
In the "First Resurrection" all Rapture/deceased saints are "Resurrected"..."From Heaven", they come "With Jesus".
and all unsaved dead, stay dead,
"NOBODY" is resurrected "from a grave" in the "First Resurrection".

So what really happens? NO ONE is "resurrected" in heaven, for they are alive there. By very definition of "resurrection" it is the DEAD coming to life. You and I both know this is referring to the BODIES of the saints, not to the spirits. So they DON'T get "resurrected" from heaven, they get resurrected from the GRAVE where their body was put. The body flies up into the air (the dead in Christ rise...) and the spirit/soul that Christ brings with Him rejoins with the risen body. THAT is "resurrection." Of course as the body is risen it is CHANGED to immortality.

There are no Righteous souls still in a grave... Agreed, but souls don't RISE. Resurrection is speaking of the BODY not the soul.

Do you agree?

Click to expand...

Resurrection simply means to be "back on the earth, alive", after having died or been rapture.

Apply any other definition and it will foul up your understanding of scripture, I've seen it happen too many times.

The rapture is not a resurrection even though the grave are open, glorified Bodies come out, for the simple reason they are not "Back on earth, alive", but go directly to heaven with Jesus,

when they "Return" with Jesus in the second coming is the "FIRST" resurrection, not the "Second".

You can't say the Pre trib rapture is a resurrection and then the second coming is the "First",

according to that definition the "first" should be the "Second" resurrection, Scripture doesn't make that kind of mistakes.

But it does confirm that the church leaves the earth in the rapture, they are not "back on the earth alive", but go straight to heaven with Jesus for the Son's marriage.

Scripture is written with such accuracy you have to measure it with a "micrometer", but many just want to use a tape measure.

BABerean2 said:

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
(First Resurrection)

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
(Second Resurrection)

.

Click to expand...

Re 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Re 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Re 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

The "lost" are Judged at the GWT, not before.

iamlamad said:

Revelation chapters are not in chronological order, but the only way you could know that is to know the timeline laid out in scripture. MORE NONSENSE! YOu cannot possibly prove this statement.

Click to expand...

Re 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Re 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

You would be wise to learn this axiom on Revelation:
ANY THEORY that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect, and WILL BE proven wrong.

Click to expand...

Maybe you should take an "AX" to the "Axiom".

Satan is cast out of heaven as soon as the church arrives, or after the "HE" is taken out of the way, after the fulness of the Gentiles.

More nonsense! Satan is cast out of heaven at the sounding of the 7th trumpet. Why then?

Click to expand...

1. So who is the "man" cast out,
2. who are the "guest",
3. who is the "King",
4. who is/isn't at this marriage,
5. and what is the location of this event????


Mt 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
Mt 22:8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:

Answer those five things.

It is because the earth-lease: the book in the hand of the Father, with the 7 seals, has RUN OUT.

Click to expand...

Even think it could be because accusing someone of being unworthy sinners is senseless "AFTER" they have already arrived in heaven.

Just so you know, the group too large to number in Rev. 7 IS THE RAPTURED CHURCH. So we will get there about 3 1/2 years before Satan is cast down.

Click to expand...

The church has no part in any of Daniel's prophecy, or it would have been mentioned and no mystery to Israel.

[qupte]Israel doesn't attend the "Son's marriage" to the mostly "Gentiles Church", the church going to that marriage is the rapture. The Old Testament saints will most certainly be guests at the marriage. That is why it is delayed until after the 70th week has finished: waiting on their resurrection.[/quote]

Matt 22 says there is a wedding that Israel doesn't attend, and the only marriage celebration Israel (Mother of Jesus) does attend is the one in Cana, at the second coming, when the church/Israel become one, that doesn't happen until God brings Israel into the covenant during the trib.

And why is the woman only protected for 1260 days, that is only half of the trib, what happens in the other half??? The woman flees upon seeing the abomination that divides the week. So of course her time of fleeing will be the last half of the week. Please take note she flees in 12:6, which is immediately after the 7th trumpet that marks the midpoint.

Neither the Beast nor the False Prophet, backed by Satan, will be able to touch her. HOWEVER, they will certainly go after the rest of the Jews, Hebrews, and ALL who refuse to worship the idol or take the mark.

Click to expand...

The two witnesses preach during the first half, the second half they are killed and God is silence giving the AC complete/totally power over the earth with no one able to survive "Except" by the time being cut short.

And if it wasn't "cut short"....."no flesh" would survive. so where is this "protection"????

Riberra said:

Who will make the (supposed)rapture of the Church before the Tribulation ?Jesus said during the Olivet discourse that His coming will be after the Tribulation. Matthew 24:29-31

You know surely that Paul and Luke were there at the Olivet discourse and have heard Jesus talking about only one coming yet to come.

Click to expand...

Paul HATED Jesus. He would not have been there. Your imagination is running wild.
Next, Jesus did not lie: He WILL come after the days of GT. But this does not preclude Him from coming earlier to the air.

Remember Jesus ONLY said what He heard the Father say. The Gentile church of which we are a part was HIDDEN...a MYSTERY hidden in Father God. Paul tells us that. There is no reason WHY Jesus would mention anything about the Gentile church. God gave Israel enough time to accept Jesus as their Messiah - but they refused as a nation. So after time, God turned to the Gentiles and blinded the eyes of the Jews. Picture the Gentile church as a PARENTHESIS between the early chapters of Acts and the 70th week. God just STOPPED the Hebrew/Jewish clock and inserted a church age. I know you don't see this in scripture, but it is there.

Postvieww said:

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


You are right, they are not in heaven, they are on earth, but in resurrection bodies. Good point! I was in error there. Thanks for pointing that out. "they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years" is proof. His reign will be on earth.


“There is no time information given as to WHEN they were resurrected” This is true. John does not give us that information in Rev. 20. That was my intended meaning, NO TIME GIVEN in Rev. 20. I should have made that clearer.

it is the CHURCH - having been resurrected and caught up before the "trib" I base this on other scriptures, not on Rev. 20


Now we have a “Primary or Chief” resurrection, that demands at least a secondary and possibly a third or forth.

You are stretching. Actually, there WILL BE another: John tells us there are TWO resurrections, one for the righteous and one for the unrighteous. The first of the two is the primary one, being for the righteous. Do you disagree? I guess not.

I do agree with your above statement. I believe you understand which resurrection I do not agree with.


Since there ARE only two, one for the righteous and one for the sinner, then ALL HUMANS must fit into one or the other. Do you wish to put Jesus into the "second death" resurrection? I don't think so. No, He was the FIRSTFRUITS of the "first" or primary resurrection.


You know as well as I do that John tells us the second death resurrection will be 1000 years after the primary resurrection for the righteous. How does that fit with your statement " Daniel wrote of only one Dan 12:2 & 13 at the time of troube, at the end of days. Jesus wrote of only one John 6:39,40,44 & 54 at the last day"

I should have added “for the righteous dead”, many times I do add the phrase I did not here, my bad.


Can you understand that Daniel and Jesus were summarizing - not giving specifics? When we get to Rev. 20, we get all the facts: two resurrections with 1000 years between them.


I can agree with your statement here. Daniel did mention two, he did just not point out the 1000 years in between . What he did point out was that the first resurrection would be at the time of trouble and that would include all those that were found written in the book. What he did not point out were multiple resurrections for the righteous dead can we agree on that? What John wrote was the same thing only he pointed out the 1000 years between. What he did not do in this text is point out multiple, or phases for the righteous, can we agree on that?


If you look west from Burlington Colorado on a clear day, you see the frontal range of mountains. For all you know, they may be only a few miles in depth, east to west. However, when you start up into them on Hwy 70, by the time you get to Copper Mountain, you see there was a whole lot of "mountain" you could not see from Burlington. It is that was with prophecy. From 500 years away, God does not give all the details. John gave us details. Does this make what Daniel wrote "wrong?" No! Daniel did not see the 1000 years between the resurrection of the righteous and the resurrection of the sinner.


What I want to know is, since I know that you know about the 1000 years, why you would you write what you did? Do you not believe John about the 1000 years?

Did I clear up my position on this above? If not be more specific.


iamlamad, Yesterday at 11:35 PM Report#2962Like+

Click to expand...

You did well! Thanks. So we agree: ONE RESURRECTION for the righteous. The difference then: I see it coming in waves, with Jesus as the firstfruits. You did not answer one question: WHICH of the two resurrections will you put Jesus in?

Indeed, at the time of Daniel the Gentile church of which we are a part, was a mystery hidden in Father God. Daniel was writing of HIS people. And as you know, I am convinced their resurrection will be at the 7th vial which will be the last 24 hours of the 70th week: the "last day."

John did not point out phases. However, since John tells us of only TWO resurrections, Jesus' resurrection has to be in one of the two. Next, I don't think by "first" John meant anything but primary, with no timing involved except it comes before the secondary resurrection.

We have not talked about this, but perhaps we should. I am convinced that God waited for a time to see if the NATION of Israel would accept Jesus as their Messiah. After time - in which they rejected Him - God blinded their eyes and turned to the Gentiles. It is just as if God inserted a parenthesis we call the church age into the Jewish timeline - a time we also call the age of Grace. If the Jews had turned to Jesus as a nation, Paul would not have been sent to the Gentiles. All the Jews would have. Of course God knew in advance - but it seems He always gives humans the choice and waits to see which choice they will make. It is interesting, ONLY Paul was sent to the Gentiles: all the other 10 stayed with the scattered Jews. We owe our salvation to Paul. The only exception was Peter and Cornelius. I can see now that What happened to Peter was very necessary at the first church conference, Acts 15. It was God looking into the future and being there ahead of everyone else!

5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

How would that conference have turned out if Peter had not gone to Cornelius' house?

I don't expect to find ANYTHING in the Olivet discourse that fits exactly with the church of today. At the time, the church of today was still a mystery hidden in God. I think you mix up things of the church with things of Israel - when "never the twain shall meet." God blinded their eyes while turning to the Gentiles. When the fullness of the Gentiles will have come in, then that blindness will be removed and God will begin working with them again as in the 70th week OF DANIEL. You seem to think God will be working with both the church and the Jews. I don't think so. He will REMOVE the church, and shut the door on the "born again" experience with the pretrib rapture and close the church age. It will turn to "Day of the Lord" age.

Bible2+ said:

Matthew 25:32-46 refers to when the "nations" will be finally-judged by their works at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:12-13),

Click to expand...

This is one of the worst error I've ever seen you make and believe me, you make A LOT of them everyday.

Christ isn't the judge at the Great White Throne, that would be God the Father who judges all of the second resurrection. Christ judges at the Judgment Seat of Christ of all of the first resurrection. Once Christ defeats everything, He gives the authority to judge back to God at the end of the millennium.


That's why Christ was given power and authority 2k years ago. It will be given back to God 1k years from now after He makes every enemy His footstool.


Bottom line is Matthew 25:32-46 is the tribulation when Christ returns to judge the nations. Read Matthew 25:31, it's about the second coming. Nice of you to cut off verse 31.

Short Timer said:

Re 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Re 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

You call this "proof?" Nonsense! Did you FORGET that John numbered these things just so people like you would NOT try to rearrange? What you are showing is that you don't understand John's chronology. You will find "heaven and earth" still around after the 6th seal, after the 7th seal and throughout the rest of the 70th week.


Maybe you should take an "AX" to the "Axiom". It is TRUTH. You just don't yet know it.



1. So who is the "man" cast out, I wished I knew. Perhaps you could enlighten us.
2. who are the "guest", The Old Covenant saints are the guests - in my opinion.
3. who is the "King", Of course GOD the Father is the KING, and Jesus Christ is the SON.
4. who is/isn't at this marriage, The BRIDE is there: but those left behind are not.
5. and what is the location of this event???? Remember, it is a PARABLE. Parables are to drive home ONE POINT. (so say the experts) The real marriage will take place IN HEAVEN just before Jesus returns with the armies of heaven.


Mt 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like (See? It is a parable.) unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
Mt 22:8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:

Answer those five things.




Even think it could be because accusing someone of being unworthy sinners is senseless "AFTER" they have already arrived in heaven. NO ONE in heaven is going to be accusing anyone else! There is NO SIN in heaven. REmember, this one was cast into OUTER DARKNESS. NO ONE unworthy will get through the gates of heaven. It is a PARABLE. IF this is a parable about the real marriage, the wedding garment must be righteousness.



The church has no part in any of Daniel's prophecy, or it would have been mentioned and no mystery to Israel.
Agreed.

Israel doesn't attend the "Son's marriage" to the mostly "Gentiles Church", the church going to that marriage is the rapture.

Click to expand...

The Old Testament saints will most certainly be guests at the marriage. That is why it is delayed until after the 70th week has finished: waiting on their resurrection.

Click to expand...

Matt 22 says there is a wedding that Israel doesn't attend, and the only marriage celebration Israel (Mother of Jesus) does attend is the one in Cana, at the second coming, when the church/Israel become one, that doesn't happen until God brings Israel into the covenant during the trib. You "ad libed" that second marriage. It is MYTH. Stick to what you can prove with scripture. It is a PARABLE. It is NOT in reference to the real wedding in Rev. 19. The wedding garment is given as the ROBE OF RIGHTEOUSNESS when we accept Jesus. This part of the parable: the man without the proper garment is specifically speak to those who think: "I don't hurt anyone. I am a good person. I live a better life that that church goer down the street." They don't understand that they inherited Adam's sin, and are completely guilty before God.

The two witnesses preach during the first half, the second half they are killed and God is silence giving the AC complete/totally power over the earth with no one able to survive "Except" by the time being cut short.

You completely miss John's Chronology. Jesus words to me: "Every time I mentioned an event that would start at the midpoint and go to the end of the week, I always included the 3 1/2 years period of time." If you will take notice, they testify for 1260 days, so this is one of the instances Jesus was speaking of. There are five of them listed by John and EACH AND EVERY ONE is for the last half of the week. Next, if you look closely, you will find that John uses FUTURE TENSE verbs for them, while most of his verbs are Aorist verbs that show no tense at all. Why would he use future tense verbs for the two witnesses? Very simple: to show people like you that from the point God introduced them to John (and John to us) their witness and testimony will be FUTURE from that point on. In other words, they SHOW UP right where John first mentions them: 3 1/2 days before the abomination. They testify for 1260 days and are killed just 3 1/2 days before the 7th vial that ends the week. They lay dead those 3 1/2 days and are raised with all the rest of the Old Testament saints at the 7th vial.

Did you not realize that the one that kills them is the very one who comes out of the bottomless pit, and that pit is NOT OPENED until the 5th trumpet. If they were testifying during the first half, they would not finish their 1260 days. Next, God will have 144,000 witnesses during the first half, but NO WITNESSES for the second half, if you mistakenly move them to the first half. Admit it: you are mistaken on this.

And if it wasn't "cut short"....."no flesh" would survive. so where is this "protection"????

Click to expand...

I did not understand your last question.

Here is Coffman Commentary on it:

The king represents God.
The king's son is Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
The marriage supper stands for the privileges of the true faith.
The messengers are the evangelists of all ages who preach the truth.
The mistreatment of the messengers refers to the hostility of the Pharisees against the apostles, first, and to other preachers later.
The rejection of the invitation is the rejection of Christ's message by the Pharisees and other Jewish leaders.
The destruction of their city is the destruction of Jerusalem by Titus and Vespasian in 70 A.D.
The sending of the messengers into the byways prefigures the call of the Gentiles.
The man without a wedding garment represents all who despise the privilege of true faith, and, while professing it, prove themselves unworthy of it.
The coming in of the king to see the guests is the arraignment of all men at the final judgment.
The binding of the offender and casting him out show the punishment of the wicked in hell.
The speechlessness of the offender shows that evil men at last shall concur in their own punishment, being able to make no defense of their own conduct.

Click to expand...

Short Timer said:

Resurrection simply means to be "back on the earth, alive", after having died or been rapture.

Apply any other definition and it will foul up your understanding of scripture, I've seen it happen too many times.

The rapture is not a resurrection even though the grave are open, glorified Bodies come out, for the simple reason they are not "Back on earth, alive", but go directly to heaven with Jesus,

when they "Return" with Jesus in the second coming is the "FIRST" resurrection, not the "Second".

You can't say the Pre trib rapture is a resurrection and then the second coming is the "First",

according to that definition the "first" should be the "Second" resurrection, Scripture doesn't make that kind of mistakes.

But it does confirm that the church leaves the earth in the rapture, they are not "back on the earth alive", but go straight to heaven with Jesus for the Son's marriage.

Scripture is written with such accuracy you have to measure it with a "micrometer", but many just want to use a tape measure.

Click to expand...

Oh! My goodness! PLEASE go to Strongs and look up that word "first." It does not mean first as in no other before it. It means CHIEF or PRIMARY. Did Jesus rise from the dead? You KNOW He did. And He was called the "firstfruits" from the dead. He was the FIRST ONE to be a part of the first or primary resurrection.

Next, go to any dictionary and look up resurrection. It is taking ONLY of the body, not of the spirit and not of the soul. ONLY THE BODY goes into a grave, and ONLY the body gets resurrected from the grave. OF COURSE when the dead in Christ rise it is a "resurrection." "Back on earth alive"? Perhaps you should say "back on earth WHOLE and complete as wearing a body once again. Your definition of "back on earth" is mass confusion. And you are here to teach?

Next, go to any of the many commentaries you can find on line and you will find "resurrection" is ANY TIME someone dead rises from the grave.

when they "Return" with Jesus in the second coming is the "FIRST" resurrection, not the "Second". NONSENSE! Their "resurrection" happened at the pretrib rapture.

You can't say the Pre trib rapture is a resurrection and then the second coming is the "First", This is like the blind leading the blind! OF COURSE the rapture is a resurrection, for the dead in Christ are RAISED. You just don't understand what John is saying about the "first" or PRIMARY or CHIEF resurrection that is for the righteous. It is NOT "first" as in no other one before it, simply because JESUS' resurrection was the FIRST in time. The truth is, Jesus' resurrection is very much a part of the "first" or PRIMARY resurrection that is for the righteous.

according to that definition the "first" should be the "Second" resurrection, Scripture doesn't make that kind of mistakes The mistake is ONLY IN YOUR HEAD. Get this straight: there are ONLY TWO resurrections; one for the righteous and one for the sinner. YOU KNOW THIS! Jesus was the very first to take part in the "first" or primary resurrection. The raptured church will be the second wave, the dead, beheaded by the Beast will be the 3rd wave. ALL will be a part of the "first" or primary resurrection that is for the JUST. The "second" resurrection is the "second death" resurrection.

tanzel said:

Hard for you to understand the simple things, why should I talk about Daniel with you.

Click to expand...

Face it! Admit it! Your theory simply will not work.