The happy conclusions of the present gun debate.

OldWiseGuy

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Maybe, but I don't think so. I currently live in Minnesota which very well may be colder than Toronto, and certainly has more snow. Minneapolis/St. Paul is considerably smaller than Toronto, at about two thirds the population, and has still had more gun-related deaths last year.

While criminals are likely prowling around in even the coldest weather the supply of victims declines as people opt to stay home during severe weather, thus the predictable drop in general crime.
 
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See you until the next killing!

Anyone wanna place any bets?
Yeah, I'll bet you a penny that the next mass shooting will be committed by another person who fell thru the cracks of our broken mental healthcare system.

I would bet you a billion dollars, but I don't believe in endentured servitude. ;)
 
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As for the OP.

Lets just say that 99% of mental health providers are online. They have direct access to the internet and could EASILY deter these types of crimes by simply clicking an anonymous button on thier CPU.

They prescribe the patient a mind altering drug. Click, the patient is anonymously entered into the database, and the potential killer is denied access to purchasing a gun.

He/she then must prove to his/her provider that they are mentally equipped to possess a firearm to get their rights re-instated.
If the DR is wrong in denying their rights, he/she can petition the court to prove theyre all there.
 
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• Eric Harris age 17 (first on Zoloft then Luvox) and Dylan Klebold aged 18 (Columbine school shooting in Littleton, Colorado), killed 12 students and 1 teacher, and wounded 23 others, before killing themselves. Klebold's medical records have never been made available to the public.

• Jeff Weise, age 16, had been prescribed 60 mg/day of Prozac (three times the average starting dose for adults!) when he shot his grandfather, his grandfather's girlfriend and many fellow students at Red Lake, Minnesota. He then shot himself. 10 dead, 12 wounded.

• Cory Baadsgaard, age 16, Wahluke (Washington state) High School, was on Paxil (which caused him to have hallucinations) when he took a rifle to his high school and held 23 classmates hostage. He has no memory of the event.

• Chris Fetters, age 13, killed his favorite aunt while taking Prozac.

• Christopher Pittman, age 12, murdered both his grandparents while taking Zoloft.

• Mathew Miller, age 13, hung himself in his bedroom closet after taking Zoloft for 6 days.

• Kip Kinkel, age 15, (on Prozac and Ritalin) shot his parents while they slept then went to school and opened fire killing 2 classmates and injuring 22 shortly after beginning Prozac treatment.

• Luke Woodham, age 16 (Prozac) killed his mother and then killed two students, wounding six others.

• A boy in Pocatello, ID (Zoloft) in 1998 had a Zoloft-induced seizure that caused an armed stand off at his school.

• Michael Carneal (Ritalin), age 14, opened fire on students at a high school prayer meeting in West Paducah, Kentucky. Three teenagers were killed, five others were wounded..

• A young man in Huntsville, Alabama (Ritalin) went psychotic chopping up his parents with an ax and also killing one sibling and almost murdering another.

• Andrew Golden, age 11, (Ritalin) and Mitchell Johnson, aged 14, (Ritalin) shot 15 people, killing four students, one teacher, and wounding 10 others.

• TJ Solomon, age 15, (Ritalin) high school student in Conyers, Georgia opened fire on and wounded six of his class mates.

• Rod Mathews, age 14, (Ritalin) beat a classmate to death with a bat.

• James Wilson, age 19, (various psychiatric drugs) from Breenwood, South Carolina, took a .22 caliber revolver into an elementary school killing two young girls, and wounding seven other children and two teachers.

• Elizabeth Bush, age 13, (Paxil) was responsible for a school shooting in Pennsylvania

• Jason Hoffman (Effexor and Celexa) – school shooting in El Cajon, California

• Jarred Viktor, age 15, (Paxil), after five days on Paxil he stabbed his grandmother 61 times.

• Chris Shanahan, age 15 (Paxil) in Rigby, ID who out of the blue killed a woman.

• Jeff Franklin (Prozac and Ritalin), Huntsville, AL, killed his parents as they came home from work using a sledge hammer, hatchet, butcher knife and mechanic's file, then attacked his younger brothers and sister.

• Neal Furrow (Prozac) in LA Jewish school shooting reported to have been court-ordered to be on Prozac along with several other medications.

• Kevin Rider, age 14, was withdrawing from Prozac when he died from a gunshot wound to his head. Initially it was ruled a suicide, but two years later, the investigation into his death was opened as a possible homicide. The prime suspect, also age 14, had been taking Zoloft and other SSRI antidepressants.

• Alex Kim, age 13, hung himself shortly after his Lexapro prescription had been doubled.

• Diane Routhier was prescribed Welbutrin for gallstone problems. Six days later, after suffering many adverse effects of the drug, she shot herself.

• Billy Willkomm, an accomplished wrestler and a University of Florida student, was prescribed Prozac at the age of 17. His family found him dead of suicide – hanging from a tall ladder at the family's Gulf Shore Boulevard home in July 2002.

• Kara Jaye Anne Fuller-Otter, age 12, was on Paxil when she hung herself from a hook in her closet. Kara's parents said ".... the damn doctor wouldn't take her off it and I asked him to when we went in on the second visit. I told him I thought she was having some sort of reaction to Paxil...")

• Gareth Christian, Vancouver, age 18, was on Paxil when he committed suicide in 2002, (Gareth's father could not accept his son's death and killed himself.)

• Julie Woodward, age 17, was on Zoloft when she hung herself in her family's detached garage.

• Matthew Miller was 13 when he saw a psychiatrist because he was having difficulty at school. The psychiatrist gave him samples of Zoloft. Seven days later his mother found him dead, hanging by a belt from a laundry hook in his closet.

• Kurt Danysh, age 18, and on Prozac, killed his father with a shotgun. He is now behind prison bars, and writes letters, trying to warn the world that SSRI drugs can kill.

• Woody __, age 37, committed suicide while in his 5th week of taking Zoloft. Shortly before his death his physician suggested doubling the dose of the drug. He had seen his physician only for insomnia. He had never been depressed, nor did he have any history of any mental illness symptoms.

• A boy from Houston, age 10, shot and killed his father after his Prozac dosage was increased.

• Hammad Memon, age 15, shot and killed a fellow middle school student. He had been diagnosed with ADHD and depression and was taking Zoloft and "other drugs for the conditions."

• Matti Saari, a 22-year-old culinary student, shot and killed 9 students and a teacher, and wounded another student, before killing himself. Saari was taking an SSRI and a benzodiazapine.

• Steven Kazmierczak, age 27, shot and killed five people and wounded 21 others before killing himself in a Northern Illinois University auditorium. According to his girlfriend, he had recently been taking Prozac, Xanax and Ambien. Toxicology results showed that he still had trace amounts of Xanax in his system.

• Finnish gunman Pekka-Eric Auvinen, age 18, had been taking antidepressants before he killed eight people and wounded a dozen more at Jokela High School – then he committed suicide.

• Asa Coon from Cleveland, age 14, shot and wounded four before taking his own life. Court records show Coon was on Trazodone.

• Jon Romano, age 16, on medication for depression, fired a shotgun at a teacher in his New York high school.

Missing from list... 3 of 4 known to have taken these same meds....

• What drugs was Jared Lee Loughner on, age 21...... killed 6 people and injuring 14 others in Tuscon, Az?

• What drugs was James Eagan Holmes on, age 24..... killed 12 people and injuring 59 others in Aurora Colorado?

• What drugs was Jacob Tyler Roberts on, age 22, killed 2 injured 1, Clackamas Or?

• What drugs was Adam Peter Lanza on, age 20, Killed 26 and wounded 2 in Newtown Ct?

Credit to Dan Roberts Ammoland.com
 
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Nithavela

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And on the other hand, there are lots of people who get put into mental wards without there being any need for it. Just check out the stories about perfectly normal reporters who get themselves comitted and then try to prove that they are mentally healthy.
 
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bhsmte

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And on the other hand, there are lots of people who get put into mental wards without there being any need for it. Just check out the stories about perfectly normal reporters who get themselves comitted and then try to prove that they are mentally healthy.

In the United States, it is very difficult to involuntarily commit someone to a mental institution. The person being committed has their day in court and can challenge the findings with their own doctor.
 
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Aldebaran

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Yeah, I'll bet you a penny that the next mass shooting will be committed by another person who fell thru the cracks of our broken mental healthcare system.

I'll further the bet by predicting that this will be the claim made by politicians seeking more restrictions on gun rights before anything is ever known about the shooter.
 
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Aldebaran

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Yet, they manage to do so regardless.

They actually don't. Those in the 3 categories I just listed get them by other means. Those who are underage usually get them from their parents, or by theft. Those denied for the other reasons sometimes get them through straw purchasers, or theft.
 
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Aldebaran

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How abut you explain this one?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacoma_Mall_shooting

The point is that armed people do not and can not always stop these shootings. That some can and do I will concede but expecting people to be armed and respond correctly without training is not a comprehensive solution.

From your link, "No one was killed during the shooting."
 
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Aldebaran

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Aldebaran

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How does that refute the fact that mass shootings happen in non gun free zones and people who are concealed carrying do not stop them?

Nobody is saying they can't happen. But the shooters usually do go to gun-free zones because it's the easiest of all places to do what they intend to do. Sure, a person could even walk into a police station (which has been done) and start shooting. They may succeed in hitting a few officers before being taken down themselves, but it's nothing like what happens when a shooter walks into a place such a school where everyone is unarmed. In those cases, dozens of people are killed.
 
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TLK Valentine

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I'll further the bet by predicting that this will be the claim made by politicians seeking more restrictions on gun rights before anything is ever known about the shooter.

Double or nothing says they're right.
 
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TLK Valentine

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How does that refute the fact that mass shootings happen in non gun free zones and people who are concealed carrying do not stop them?

Obviously if you weren't killed, you weren't actually shot.
 
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TLK Valentine

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Nobody is saying they can't happen. But the shooters usually do go to gun-free zones because it's the easiest of all places to do what they intend to do. Sure, a person could even walk into a police station (which has been done) and start shooting. They may succeed in hitting a few officers before being taken down themselves, but it's nothing like what happens when a shooter walks into a place such a school where everyone is unarmed. In those cases, dozens of people are killed.

Umpqua College wasn't a gun-free zone. Still, 9 people were killed.
 
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Belk

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Nobody is saying they can't happen. But the shooters usually do go to gun-free zones because it's the easiest of all places to do what they intend to do.

But that is just it Aldebaran, they don't target gun free zones. Less then a quarter of the of the mass killings in the past several years have been in gun free zones and none of them seem to have been chosen because no one was armed. I wish I could find the analysis that someone on one of the shooting boards I frequent did. He traced down the info for the mass shootings and showed that there was no preference for gun free zones. Until I can find it this will have to do.

http://www.armedwithreason.com/the-...ip-between-gun-free-zones-and-mass-shootings/

Sure, a person could even walk into a police station (which has been done) and start shooting. They may succeed in hitting a few officers before being taken down themselves, but it's nothing like what happens when a shooter walks into a place such a school where everyone is unarmed. In those cases, dozens of people are killed.

Dozens can be and are killed no matter where people select. It has nothing to do with gun free zones and everything to do with target rich locations. The simple truth is that getting rid of gun free zones will not solve our problem with mass shootings and certainly will not do anything with our other gun violence problems.
 
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com7fy8

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But this is the same as Canada. We have all the same movies, TV shows and video games as you do in the States. I admit, I did not have toy guns as a kid, but not for lack of availability.
When I was a kid, we had violent gun game things, which we acted out ourselves, not through a machine video thing. We "killed" each other. But we were clearly trained to know it was pretend and that we must never kill an innocent person, not even point a real gun at someone who is not a threat and danger.

Canadians and Americans are vastly different in their love for guns, despite being nearly identical in geography and entertainment.
I would think in Canada there would be more wildlife for hunting and more Canadians than Americans would enjoy having guns for hunting.

If we want to lower the number of gun deaths in the States (and maybe Canada) it would help to identify what's different in these two, otherwise nearly identical, cultures.
Isn't Canada socialist? This possibly would mean people are more controlled by government so they have a more natural tendency not to feel "entitled" and "independent", like Americans can feel. So, this might help to keep them from feeling like getting revenge, as readily, when they don't get their own way . . . if they hang their well-being more on government than on their own efforts and controlling other people to give them what they want.

In Russia which is somehow socialist, for a while, anyway, it was believed they had almost zero street crime in Moscow. Possibly because there was more government control and not such a culture, like in America, where the individual can make things happen for oneself and therefore might seek revenge against ones who keep him or her from getting what he or she wants.
 
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sahjimira

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This is just my situation. I live alone in the rural area with my two dogs. Have a few neighbors but not to close. I have a shotgun and a 38 revolver. Town is about 5 miles away . Drugs r plentiful. A few yes ago burglars were shooting dogs and robbing the houses. I doubt these guys got the guns legally. They always find a way. As for me I'd rather have the guns than b a statistic. How to stop mass murder..it's a horrible thing and Iddon't have an answer. Notice how many times friends or family noticed a change in the perpetrator? TThat's a red flag. I guess u can't force someone to get psych evaluation but there must b some recourse or at least should b. Most of these killers r probably mentally ill. These r just my thoughts.. Wish I had some constructive alternative to add but I don't. Just sharing my situation.
 
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com7fy8

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It has nothing to do with gun free zones and everything to do with target rich locations.
But what about targets for revenge? If the shooter has a grudge against schoolmates, he or she is in a school in order to shoot, possibly, whoever the shooter feels has hurt and cheated and maybe rejected the shooter . . . or to kill the ones the shooter feels did not administratively stand up for the shooter against people who the shooter feels abused him or her.
 
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JGG

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When I was a kid, we had violent gun game things, which we acted out ourselves, not through a machine video thing. We "killed" each other. But we were clearly trained to know it was pretend and that we must never kill an innocent person, not even point a real gun at someone who is not a threat and danger.

I would think in Canada there would be more wildlife for hunting and more Canadians than Americans would enjoy having guns for hunting.

There is lots of hunting in Canada. I think Canadians do love using guns for sport. However, we do not have quite the same obsession with them.

Isn't Canada socialist? This possibly would mean people are more controlled by government so they have a more natural tendency not to feel "entitled" and "independent", like Americans can feel. So, this might help to keep them from feeling like getting revenge, as readily, when they don't get their own way . . . if they hang their well-being more on government than on their own efforts and controlling other people to give them what they want.

We are more socialist, sure. Consider that perhaps we are more socialist because we do not feel entitled, or independent, not necessarily the other way around. I do think that Canadians tend to have genuine concern for their neighbour, and aren't prepared to step on them to get what we want.

In Russia which is somehow socialist, for a while, anyway, it was believed they had almost zero street crime in Moscow. Possibly because there was more government control and not such a culture, like in America, where the individual can make things happen for oneself and therefore might seek revenge against ones who keep him or her from getting what he or she wants.

I think in America, in order to get yours, you have to take from someone else.
 
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