transubstantiation unsubstantiated substantially :P
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fhansen
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It is on topic. As you should know the east has the same basic concept as transubstantiation, born out in practice if not in name as they never bothered to define it. Most Anglicans don't claim to know how the bread and wine become the body and blood, only that it does, while Lutherans more or less maintain that the change takes place during the celebration, while others, holding to their private interpretation of John chap 6 mainly, maintain that no change takes place at all and that the Eucharist has no real relevance, diverging completely away from the church's understanding.The untraditional Traditionists do the same.
Let's try to keep this on the topic, please.
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Rick Otto
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I know, right? The core sacrament is collateral damage in a semantics pout that proxies for a dominance dispute.
Holy drama!
Devilish details.
Your ecclesiology betrays your sacramentology, and your sacramentology betrays your soteriology.
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Albion
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I'm sorry, but the tired claim that those who trust the Bible to be complete and sufficient are divided...while the Traditionist churches are supposedly not divided is just a diversion and was offered only to get back at another poster. So, let's talk about Transubstantiation.
It's similar; it's not the same.
Just as the Eastern Orthodox don't claim to know how the bread and wine become the body and blood.
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GregoryTheNonTheologian
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transubstantiation unsubstantiated substantially
This Thread is to be primarily focused upon the texts of John 6 [KJB; and surrounding], as well as [KJB] Matthew 26:16; Mark 14:22; Luke 22:19; 1 Corinthians 11:24, and other near-related, in the matter of the so-called mystagogic transubstantiation. First, the scriptures of John 6:
John 6:1 KJV - After these things Jesus went over the sea of Galilee, which is [the sea] of Tiberias.
John 6:2 KJV - And a great multitude followed him, because they saw his miracles which he did on them that were diseased.
John 6:3 KJV - And Jesus went up into a mountain, and there he sat with his disciples.
John 6:4 KJV - And the passover, a feast of the Jews, was nigh.
John 6:5 KJV - When Jesus then lifted up [his] eyes, and saw a great company come unto him, he saith unto Philip, Whence shall we buy bread, that these may eat?
John 6:6 KJV - And this he said to prove him: for he himself knew what he would do.
John 6:7 KJV - Philip answered him, Two hundred pennyworth of bread is not sufficient for them, that every one of them may take a little.
John 6:8 KJV - One of his disciples, Andrew, Simon Peter's brother, saith unto him,
John 6:9 KJV - There is a lad here, which hath five barley loaves, and two small fishes: but what are they among so many?
John 6:10 KJV - And Jesus said, Make the men sit down. Now there was much grass in the place. So the men sat down, in number about five thousand.
John 6:11 KJV - And Jesus took the loaves; and when he had given thanks, he distributed to the disciples, and the disciples to them that were set down; and likewise of the fishes as much as they would.
John 6:12 KJV - When they were filled, he said unto his disciples, Gather up the fragments that remain, that nothing be lost.
John 6:13 KJV - Therefore they gathered [them] together, and filled twelve baskets with the fragments of the five barley loaves, which remained over and above unto them that had eaten.
John 6:14 KJV - Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world.
John 6:15 KJV - When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.
John 6:16 KJV - And when even was [now] come, his disciples went down unto the sea,
John 6:17 KJV - And entered into a ship, and went over the sea toward Capernaum. And it was now dark, and Jesus was not come to them.
John 6:18 KJV - And the sea arose by reason of a great wind that blew.
John 6:19 KJV - So when they had rowed about five and twenty or thirty furlongs, they see Jesus walking on the sea, and drawing nigh unto the ship: and they were afraid.
John 6:20 KJV - But he saith unto them, It is I; be not afraid.
John 6:21 KJV - Then they willingly received him into the ship: and immediately the ship was at the land whither they went.
John 6:22 KJV - The day following, when the people which stood on the other side of the sea saw that there was none other boat there, save that one whereinto his disciples were entered, and that Jesus went not with his disciples into the boat, but [that] his disciples were gone away alone;
John 6:23 KJV - (Howbeit there came other boats from Tiberias nigh unto the place where they did eat bread, after that the Lord had given thanks
John 6:24 KJV - When the people therefore saw that Jesus was not there, neither his disciples, they also took shipping, and came to Capernaum, seeking for Jesus.
John 6:25 KJV - And when they had found him on the other side of the sea, they said unto him, Rabbi, when camest thou hither?
John 6:26 KJV - Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
John 6:27 KJV - Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
John 6:28 KJV - Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
John 6:29 KJV - Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
John 6:30 KJV - They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
John 6:31 KJV - Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
John 6:32 KJV - Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
John 6:33 KJV - For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
John 6:34 KJV - Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
John 6:35 KJV - And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
John 6:36 KJV - But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
John 6:37 KJV - All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
John 6:38 KJV - For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
John 6:39 KJV - And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
John 6:40 KJV - And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:41 KJV - The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
John 6:42 KJV - And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
John 6:43 KJV - Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
John 6:44 KJV - No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:45 KJV - It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
John 6:46 KJV - Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
John 6:47 KJV - Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
John 6:48 KJV - I am that bread of life.
John 6:49 KJV - Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
John 6:50 KJV - This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
John 6:51 KJV - I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
John 6:52 KJV - The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us [his] flesh to eat?
John 6:53 KJV - Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
John 6:54 KJV - Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:55 KJV - For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
John 6:56 KJV - He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
John 6:57 KJV - As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
John 6:58 KJV - This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
John 6:59 KJV - These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
John 6:60 KJV - Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard [this], said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
John 6:61 KJV - When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
John 6:62 KJV - [What] and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
John 6:63 KJV - It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.
John 6:64 KJV - But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
John 6:65 KJV - And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
John 6:66 KJV - From that [time] many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
John 6:67 KJV - Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
John 6:68 KJV - Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
John 6:69 KJV - And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
John 6:70 KJV - Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
John 6:71 KJV - He spake of Judas Iscariot [the son] of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.
Now, let's begin with a few official definitions from Roman Catholicism, on what 'transubstantiation', so that none may argue that the correct definition was not given.
If any argue that I do not understand the definition, will have to take it up with those 'priests', 'bishops' of Rome who confirmed I did, as a Roman Catholic [born and raised, 30 years, now Seventh-day Adventist], even working in a specific specialized 'ministry' for a brief time.
Here they are:
Q. What is the Roman Catholic theological dogma of the 'transubstantiation'?:
"The "Transubstantiation" of the "Eucharist":
" ... when the priest consecrates bread and wine, so that they become Christ's body and Christ's blood. ...
... But in these two instances, the bread and wine of the Eucharist, the mind is not left to itself. By the revelation of Christ it knows that the substance has been changed, in the one case into the substance of his body, in the other into the substance of his blood. ...
... The accidents remain in their totality-for example, that which was wine and is now Christ's blood still has the smell of wine, the intoxicating power of wine. ...
... All we shall say here is that his body is wholly present ... " [EWTN online; Frank J. Sheed; Taken from Theology for Beginners © 1981 by Frank J. Sheed, Chapter 18.] - http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/eucha4.htm
Another:
"... Bishops and priests being, as they are, God's interpreters and ambassadors, empowered in His name to teach mankind the divine law and the rules of conduct, and holding, as they do, His place on earth, it is evident that no nobler function than theirs can be imagined. Justly, therefore, are they called not only Angels, but even gods, because of the fact that they exercise in our midst the power and prerogatives of the immortal God.
In all ages, priests have been held in the highest honour; yet the priests of the New Testament far exceed all others. For the power of consecrating and offering the body and blood of our Lord and of forgiving sins, which has been conferred on them, not only has nothing equal or like to it on earth, but even surpasses human reason and understanding.. ..." [Source: The Catechism of the Council of Trent (The Roman Catechism), Sacrament of Holy Orders, Dignity of this Sacrament.] - http://catholicapologetics.info/thechurch/catechism/Holy7Sacraments-Orders.shtml
Another:
“...we find in obedience to the words of his priests - Hoc est Corpus Meum - God Himself descends on the altar, that he comes whenever they call Him; and as often as they call Him, and places Himself in their hands, even though they should be His enemies.
And after having come, he remains, entirely at their disposal; they move Him as they please, from one place to another; they may, if they wish, shut Him up in the tabernacle, expose Him on the altar, or carry Him outside the church; they may, if they choose, eat His flesh, and give Him for the food of others. ; Oh how great is their power!” [“The Dignity of the Priesthood”, by St. Alphonsus de Liguori, p. 9; http://www.freewebs.com/wallmell/LiguoriDignityDutiesPriest.pdf] - http://web.archive.org/web/20130120...s.com/wallmell/LiguoriDignityDutiesPriest.pdf
Consider again:
"...one place to another...", even in a little black bag ...
Another:
"... Thus the priest may, in a certain manner, be called the creator of his Creator, since by saying the words of consecration, he creates, as it were, Jesus in the sacrament, by giving him a sacramental existence, and produces him as a victim to be offered to the eternal Father.
As in creating the world it was sufficient for God to have said, Let it be made, and it was created He spoke, and they were made? 1 so it is sufficient for the priest to say, " Hoc est corpus meum," and behold the bread is no longer bread, but the body of Jesus Christ. "The power of the priest," says St. Bernardine of Sienna," is the power of the divine person; for the transubstantiation of the bread requires as much power as the creation of the world." 2 And St. Augustine has written," O venerable sanctity of the hands! O happy function of the priest ! He that created (if I may say so) gave me the power to create him; and he that created me without me is himself created by me!" 3! As the Word of God created heaven and earth, so, says St. Jerome, the words of the priest create Jesus Christ." - The Dignity of the Priesthood”, by St. Alphonsus de Liguori, p. 11 - http://web.archive.org/web/20130120...s.com/wallmell/LiguoriDignityDutiesPriest.pdf
Another:
"... He has given him power over the body of Jesus Christ, he has placed in his hands the keys of paradise, he has raised himabove all the kings of the earth, and above all the angels in heaven; in a word, he has made him, as it were, a God on earth: " A God on earth." ...
... 1 " Deus terrenus." ..." - The Dignity of the Priesthood”, by St. Alphonsus de Liguori, p. 26 - http://web.archive.org/web/20130120...s.com/wallmell/LiguoriDignityDutiesPriest.pdf
Another:
"In this moment, the priest quite literally becomes Christ Himself: his own personality is blotted out; it is absorbed in that of the everlasting priest who is, at one time, the offered victim and the supreme officiant." - This is The Mass, Henri Daniel-Rops, Fulton J. Sheen, Yousuf Karsh, trans. with annotations by Alastair Guinan, New York: Hawthorn Books, Inc., 1965. First ed. 1958, p. 118. Nihil Obstat: Robert E. Hunt, S.T. D., Censor Librorum. Imprimatur: Thomas A. Boland, S.T.D. Archbishop of Newark.
"… of the body and blood of the Lord under the species of bread and wine …
… Eucharistic worship is therefore precisely the expression of that love which is the authentic and deepest characteristic of the Christian vocation. …
… It has the appearance of bread and wine, that is to say of food and drink …
… In the encyclical Redemptor hominis(33) I have already drawn attention to the close link between the sacrament of Penance and the sacrament of the Eucharist. It is not only that Penance leads to the Eucharist, but that the Eucharist also leads to Penance. …
… There is a close link between this element of the Eucharist and its sacredness, that is to say, its being a holy and sacred action. Holy and sacred, because in it are the continual presence and action of Christ, "the Holy One" of God,(36) "anointed with the Holy Spirit,"(37) "consecrated by the Father"(38) to lay down His life of His own accord and to take it up again,(39) and the High Priest of the New Covenant.(40) For it is He who, represented by the celebrant, makes His entrance into the sanctuary and proclaims His Gospel. …
… The priest offers the holy Sacrifice in persona Christi; this means more than offering "in the name of' or "in place of' Christ. In persona means in specific sacramental identification with "the eternal High Priest"(42) who is the author and principal subject of this sacrifice of His, a sacrifice in which, in truth, nobody can take His place. …
… 9. The Eucharist is above all else a sacrifice. It is the sacrifice of the Redemption and also the sacrifice of the New Covenant,(46) ...
… All who participate with faith in the Eucharist become aware that it is a "sacrifice," that is to say, a "consecrated Offering." For the bread and wine presented at the altar and accompanied by the devotion and the spiritual sacrifices of the participants are finally consecrated, so as to become truly, really and substantially Christ's own body that is given up and His blood that is shed. Thus, by virtue of the consecration, the species of bread and wine re-present (50) in a sacramental, unbloody manner the bloody propitiatory sacrifice offered by Him on the cross to His Father for the salvation of the world. …
… Nevertheless, there are also those people who, having been educated on the basis of the old liturgy in Latin, experience the lack of this "one language," which in all the world was an expression of the unity of the Church and through its dignified character elicited a profound sense of the Eucharistic Mystery. It is therefore necessary to show not only understanding but also full respect towards these sentiments and desires. As far as possible these sentiments and desires are to be accommodated, as is moreover provided for in the new dispositions.(55) The Roman Church has special obligations towards Latin, the splendid language of ancient Rome, and she must manifest them whenever the occasion presents itself. ..." - LETTER; DOMINICAE CENAE; OF THE SUPREME PONTIFF; JOHN PAUL II; TO ALL THE BISHOPS OF THE CHURCH; ON THE MYSTERY AND WORSHIP; OF THE EUCHARIST - http://w2.vatican.va/content/john-p...ts/hf_jp-ii_let_24021980_dominicae-cenae.html
Another:
“Hence Christ is present in the sacrament with His Flesh and Blood, Body and Soul, Humanity and Divinity. ...
... In the absence of Scriptural proof, the Church finds a warrant for, and a propriety in, rendering Divine worship to the Blessed Sacrament in the most ancient and constant tradition...” - Transubstantiation, Catholic Encyclopedia; - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05573a.htm
Another:
“We believe that the Mass, celebrated by the priest representing the person of Christ by virtue of the power received through the Sacrament of Orders, and offered by him in the name of Christ and the members of His Mystical Body, is the sacrifice of Calvary rendered sacramentally present on our altars. We believe that as the bread and wine consecrated by the Lord at the Last Supper were changed into His body and His blood which were to be offered for us on the cross, likewise the bread and wine consecrated by the priest are changed into the body and blood of Christ enthroned gloriously in heaven, and we believe that the mysterious presence of the Lord, under what continues to appear to our senses as before, is a true, real and substantial presence. ...
... Christ cannot be thus present in this sacrament except by the change into His body of the reality itself of the bread and the change into His blood of the reality itself of the wine, leaving unchanged only the properties of the bread and wine which our senses perceive. This mysterious change is very appropriately called by the Church transubstantiation. Every theological explanation which seeks some understanding of this mystery must, in order to be in accord with Catholic faith, maintain that in the reality itself, independently of our mind, the bread and wine have ceased to exist after the Consecration, so that it is the adorable body and blood of the Lord Jesus that from then on are really before us under the sacramental species of bread and wine, as the Lord willed it, in order to give Himself to us as food and to associate us with the unity of His Mystical Body. ...
... The unique and indivisible existence of the Lord glorious in heaven is not multiplied, but is rendered present by the sacrament in the many places on earth where Mass is celebrated. And this existence remains present, after the sacrifice, in the Blessed Sacrament which is, in the tabernacle, the living heart of each of our churches. And it is our very sweet duty to honor and adore in the blessed Host which our eyes see, the Incarnate Word whom they cannot see, and who, without leaving heaven, is made present before us.” - The Credo of the People of God, Promulgated by Pope Paul VI on June 30, 1968, Catholic Encyclopedia, http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_pa06cr.htm
Another:
“It should go without saying--but we'll say it anyway--that there never can be any explicit denial of transubstantiation contained in the words used by the priest. He can't say such things as “This is my body if you accept it by faith” or “This is a symbol of my blood.” ...” - Quick Questions 1994, Catholic Encyclopedia Almanac, http://www.newadvent.org/library/almanac_thisrock94.htm
Another:
“The priest says: Hoc est corpus meum, he has to say it for the validity of the consecration. Meum! But it is not he who says these words; his voice indeed we hear, but he is only the instrument of the Sovereign Priest: our Lord speaks through His minister. The glory of this minister consists precisely in disappearing, in allowing Jesus to act through his personality: Sacerdos alter Christus. This Christ now offering Himself to God by the hands of the priest is the same Christ who is in heaven. Same happiness, same power, same majesty. He is performing the same acts, offering the same adorations, the same thanksgiving, the same prayers. He, the object of the beatitude of the elect, is now in the hands of the priest: Agnoscite quod agitis. But if really the priest causes our Lord to be present on the altar, if he offers Him, whilst Jesus is now in heaven, have we not to conclude that it is from the very bosom of the Father that the priest draws this divine Victim? Agnoscite quod agitis.” - Our Priesthood, by the Rev. Joseph Bruneau, S.S.D.D.; Professor of Dogmatic Theology at St. Mary;s Seminary; Baltimore, MD.; B. Herder 17 South Broadway St. Louis, MO. 68 Great Russell St. LONDON, W.C. 1911 Nihil Obstat; M.F. Dinneen, S.S., D.D.; Censor deputatus; Imprimatur; [Maltese Cross] James Card. Gibbons; Baltimore; Feast of the Nativity of the Blessed Virgin; 1911 - https://archive.org/stream/ourpriesthood00brunuoft#page/n156/mode/1up
Another:
"... Power of Consecrating
The third great power of the priestly office is the climax of all. It is the power of consecrating. "No act is greater," says saint Thomas, "than the consecration of the body of Christ." In this essential phase of the sacred ministry, the power of the priest is not surpassed by that of the bishop, the archbishop, the cardinal or the pope. Indeed it is equal to that of Jesus Christ. For in this role the priest speaks with the voice and the authority of God Himself.
When the priest pronounces the tremendous words of consecration, he reaches up into the heaven, brings Christ down from His throne, and places Him upon our altar to be offered up again as the victim for the sins of man. It is a power greater than that of monarchs and emperors. It is greater than that of saints and angels, greater than that of Seraphim and Cherubim. Indeed, it is greater than the power of the Virgin Mary. While the blessed virgin was the human agency by which Christ became incarnate a single time, the priest brings Christ down from heaven, and renders Him present on our altar as the eternal victim for the sins of man-not once, but, a thousand times!The priest speaks and lo! Christ the eternal and omnipotent God, bows His head in humble obedience to the priest's command.
[pg.271] Of what sublime dignity is the office of the Christian priest who is thus privileged to act as the ambassador and the vicegerent of Christ on earth. He continues the essential ministry of Christ - he teaches the faithful with the authority of Christ, he offers up again the same sacrifice of adoration and atonement which Christ offered on Calvary. No wonder that the name which spiritual writers are especially fond of applying to the priest is that of "alter Christus." For the priest is and should be another Christ. ..." - Faith of Millions, by Reverend John A. O'brien, Copyright 1938, published by Our Sunday Visitor, Huntington Indiana, - http://www.biblelight.net/mass.htm or http://www.biblelight.net/vatican.htm also found in https://www.google.com/search?q="When+the+priest+pronounces+the+tremendous+words+of+consecration,+he+reaches+up+into+the+heaven,+brings+Christ+down+from+His+throne"&btnG=Search+Books&tbm=bks&tbo=1&gws_rd=ssl#tbm=bks&q="brings+Christ+down+from+His+throne"
What is it exactly that you are arguing? That there is no such thing as transubstantiation, or that the Roman Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation is in error?
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GregoryTheNonTheologian
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I'm not sure I follow. Roman Catholicism is not the only Christian faith that holds a doctrine of transubstantiation.
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GregoryTheNonTheologian
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Actually, I was just trying to understand the OP's premises and conclusions ... but I didn't see the hundreds of verses quoted afterwards. It doesn't seem that the poster was inviting any kind of interchange. I'm going to bow out of the thread.
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Standing Up
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Perhaps, but that has less to do with the Eucharist per se, as it does with their maintaining their idea about sacerdotal priests (sacrament of orders). The Eucharist is nothing without their priest is the claim. IOW, they're not supporting the idea of real presence or transubstantian, rather the idea of their NT clergy.
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concretecamper
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Oh no...not this again. Doesn't anyone ever do a search to view a topic before it is brought up for the 1001st time?
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Was pretty strait forward, wasn't it.
[P.S., I think your sig is absolutely the clearest evidence that the spirit of Elijah's mockery of/to false prophets/teachers, didn't leave with him, but was certainly passed on, double portion even.]
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Well, let the material be rebutted if able then, as it has not yet been done so. At present, what I hear is clanging brass and tinkling cymbals. Lots of show, no "substance".
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Wgw
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Oh no...not this again. Doesn't anyone ever do a search to view a topic before it is brought up for the 1001st time?
It does annoy me how this forum tends to be dominated by various Protestants engaging in Two Minutes Hate against Catholics, and by extension, the Orthodox.
I am of the view that whereas the Orthodox do regard the Eucharistic change as a mystery, there is nothing altogether objectionable about the RC view of transubstantiation that cannot be more or less glossed over. I have no doubt our interlocutors would, given the chance, pour scorn over the Eucharistic doctrine of my confession as well as yours.
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