So what's your take on a "Rollercoaster Rapture?" What purpose does it serve going up to the clouds and immediately come back down?
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Why do people believe in a Rapture?
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So what's your take on a "Rollercoaster Rapture?" What purpose does it serve going up to the clouds and immediately come back down?
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In Matthew 22:11-13, the wedding garment represents the righteousness of believers (Revelation 19:8), which is conditional not only on their continued belief (Romans 3:22), but also on their continued doing of righteous deeds (1 John 3:7, James 2:24). Some believers will end up suffering the fate of Matthew 22:13 because of unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or unrepentant sinfulness (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27), or apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).
Just as what John saw in Revelation 4:2-11 are literal things in heaven, so what he saw in Revelation 12:7-9 is a literal, future, mid-tribulation war in heaven, between Michael and his angels on the one hand, and Satan and his angels on the other, resulting in Satan and his angels being defeated and cast down to the earth permanently (Revelation 12:8-9,12-13).
Revelation 12:7-9 shows that Michael and his angels are more powerful than Satan and his angels. But this doesn't mean that Satan won't be able to deceive the world (Revelation 12:9) into thinking that he and his angels (with the help of a united mankind) will be able to defeat YHWH and his army (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19).
For before Revelation 12:7-9 happens, an army of 200 million weird horse-like beings and their (possibly unclean spirit) riders will come upon the earth (Revelation 9:16-19). If they descend from the sky in spaceships, the world could see them as aliens. But they and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") could (falsely) say they are YHWH God's main army. In fact, they could be loyal to Lucifer (Satan, the dragon, Revelation 12:9). The 4 fallen angels now bound at the Euphrates who will lead this army (Revelation 9:14-16) could employ it to make mankind utterly desperate before its complete takeover by Lucifer and the Antichrist mid-tribulation (Revelation 12:9 to 13:18). For when this army starts killing 1/3 of mankind (Revelation 9:16-19), then could also begin one of the biggest deceptions ever wrought on humanity. For the Antichrist, who by that time could have managed to have been elected as the President of a Mediterranean Union formed by the joining of the European Union with an Arab Union stretching from Oman to Morocco, could announce to the world that he has sent a mental distress call to (what he could call) "My Father, our Lord Lucifer, to come with his legions of angels, and rescue mankind from this murderous army of YHWH".
It is at this point that Lucifer and his fallen angels could be cast down out of heaven to the earth permanently after losing a mid-tribulation war in heaven (Revelation 12:7-9). But instead of coming down as a defeated force, they could descend for all the world to see in gigantic, magnificent golden spaceships onto the "Champ de Mars", Mars being the same as Marduk the dragon, the chief god of ancient Babylon. The "Champ de Mars" is the large open area in front of the Eiffel Tower in Paris. After landing there, Lucifer, a literal 7-headed, red dragon (Revelation 12:3,9), could emerge in great splendor and command his angels to capture the army of 200 million weird horse-like beings and their (possibly unclean spirit) riders, who could then pretend to defect from serving YHWH to serving Lucifer. Lucifer could then confirm that he has come to rescue mankind because the Antichrist, who he could say is his only-begotten "Son", called upon him (like in an Antichrist counterfeit of Matthew 26:53). Lucifer and the Antichrist could then be received wholeheartedly by the unsaved world as the saviors of mankind. And the unsaved world could be left thinking (mistakenly) that Lucifer and his angels were more powerful than even YHWH God's main army.
Lucifer and the Antichrist, along with the Antichrist's miracle-working False Prophet, will then deceive the world into actually worshipping Lucifer and the Antichrist and a speaking (possibly an android) image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-16, Revelation 19:20; 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). And everyone will be made to receive a (possibly scarification) mark of the Antichrist either on their right hand or forehead, consisting of either the Antichrist's name or some representation of the gematrial number of his name (666) (Revelation 13:16-18). After Lucifer and the Antichrist have ruled the world for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:4-18), YHWH will send 7 vials of wrath against the unsaved world (Revelation 16).
Near the end of these 7 vials, unclean spirits like frogs will come out of the mouths of Lucifer, the Antichrist, and the False Prophet (Revelation 16:13). And these unclean spirits like frogs will go forth and perform amazing miracles to convince the world's armies to gather together at Armageddon (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel) (Revelation 16:16) to battle against YHWH himself (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19). After gathering together at Armageddon as a staging area, the world's armies will travel south and pillage Jerusalem, right before Jesus (who is YHWH: John 10:30) returns from heaven and defeats them completely (Revelation 19:11 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:2-21).
When Jesus returns, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Revelation 19:7-21, Matthew 24:29-31), he will descend physically from heaven on a white horse (Revelation 19:7-21; 1 Thessalonians 4:16, Zechariah 14:3-4, Acts 1:11-12) with all the holy angels (Matthew 25:31; 2 Thessalonians 1:7) for all the world to see (Matthew 24:27,30, Revelation 1:7). Then the church will be physically resurrected (if dead) or changed (if alive) into immortality (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:16, Revelation 20:4-6) and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).
At that meeting, Jesus will judge the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; 2 Corinthians 5:10, Luke 12:45-48) and marry its obedient part (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12) in the clouds, before it mounts white horses and comes back down from sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the world's armies (Revelation 19:19,21), and the Antichrist and False Prophet (Revelation 19:20), and has Lucifer (Satan) bound in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-3).
Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54), while the birds will feast on the corpses of the world's defeated armies (Revelation 19:17-18). Then Jesus and the obedient part of the church will rule the surviving nations with a rod of iron for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 2). After the 1,000 years, Lucifer will be released from the bottomless pit and bring about the Gog/Magog rebellion, only to be defeated for the last time (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).
At least 7 years after that defeat (Ezekiel 39:9b), the great white throne judgment will occur, in which all those who hadn't been resurrected and judged at Jesus' return will be resurrected and judged (Revelation 20:11-15). Then God will create a new heaven (a new 1st heaven: a new sky/atmosphere for the earth) and a new earth (a new surface for the earth) (Revelation 21:1; 2 Peter 3:10b,13). Then God the Father will descend from the 3rd heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:2), the Father's house (John 14:2, Revelation 21:3), and he will dwell on the earth with Jesus and the church (Revelation 21:3).
In one area outside the walls of New Jerusalem on the new earth will be the lake of fire (Revelation 22:15, Revelation 21:8), in which all of unsaved humanity will be punished forever in fire and brimstone with Lucifer and his fallen angels (Revelation 20:10,15, Matthew 25:41,46).
The first half of Revelation 12:10 is said not because Jesus' 2nd coming and the rapture and marriage of the church have occurred by that time, for those things won't occur until Revelation 19:7-21, immediately after the tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). Instead, the 2nd half of Revelation 12:10 explains why the first half is said: because Satan the accuser of the church will have been cast down out of heaven to the earth permanently by that time, which will be mid-tribulation.
Revelation 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
The woman in Revelation 12 represents the church (which is Israel: Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). She is clothed with the sun (Revelation 12:1) of righteousness (Malachi 4:2) through her faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22), just as later we see the church clothed with righteousness (Revelation 19:8). The moon under her feet (Revelation 12:1) represents Satan under her feet (Romans 16:20) as she overcomes him spiritually by her faith in Jesus (Revelation 12:11). The crown of 12 stars on her head (Revelation 12:1) represents the 12 apostles (of Matthew 10:2-4, Acts 1:16-26), who have been placed over the church (1 Corinthians 12:28).
Her giving birth to the "man child", and his being caught up to the throne of God (Revelation 12:5) immediately before she flees into the wilderness for a literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6), represents the future, mid-tribulation catching up of the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church in their mortal bodies to the throne of God in heaven (Revelation 14:1,4,5, Textus Receptus), like how Enoch and Elijah were caught up in their mortal bodies to heaven (Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:11).
Her fleeing into and remaining in a protected wilderness place for a literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6,14) represents those in the church who will flee into and remain in divinely-protected wilderness places during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), which will be in the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.
The remnant of her seed (Revelation 12:17) represents those in the church during that time who won't flee into wilderness places, but will remain in the cities, and will be persecuted in every nation, imprisoned, and beheaded by the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).
Also, Genesis 37:9-10 isn't (as is sometimes claimed) being referred to in Revelation 12:1. For in Revelation 12:1, the church/Israel isn't clothed with the man Jacob (Genesis 37:9-10), but with the sun of righteousness (Malachi 4:2), through her faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22), just as later we see the church/Israel clothed with righteousness (Revelation 19:8, cf. also Revelation 21:2,9,12). Also, the church/Israel doesn't have the woman Rachel under her feet (Genesis 37:9-10), but Satan (Romans 16:20), as the church/Israel overcomes him spiritually by her faith in Jesus (Revelation 12:11). And the church/Israel doesn't have Jacob's 12 sons placed over her (Genesis 37:9-10), but the 12 apostles (1 Corinthians 12:28, Matthew 10:2, Acts 1:26), each one of whom will rule over one of her 12 tribes (Matthew 19:28, Luke 22:30).
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Regarding Revelation 7:14-17, note that it doesn't require a pre-tribulation rapture. For in Revelation 7:9-17, the great multitude can be only that part of the church (Revelation 7:14b) which will enter the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and then come out of it (Revelation 7:14) and enter heaven (Revelation 7:15) by dying (cf. Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8) during the 2nd through 6th seals in the chapter just prior (Revelation 6), the tribulation's first stage.
This would be similar to how the souls of "them that were slain for the word of God", who will be under the altar in heaven at the 5th seal (Revelation 6:9-11), will enter heaven by dying sometime before the 5th seal. And it would be similar to how those in the church who will be on the sea of glass in heaven (Revelation 15:2, cf. Revelation 12:11) at the tribulation's 7 last plagues (Revelation chapters 15-16), the tribulation's final stage, will enter heaven by dying during the just-preceding, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).
Regarding Hebrews 12:22-29:
Hebrews 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
29 For our God is a consuming fire.
Note that Hebrews 12:22 says "ye are come", not "ye will come", in a future, pre-trib rapture. For Hebrews 12:22, like Ephesians 2:6, can refer figuratively to our present salvation under the New Covenant (Galatians 4:24-26, Hebrews 12:22,24).
Also, Hebrews 12:26b can refer to an event which is still in our future, while Hebrews 12:22, like Ephesians 2:6, can refer to an event which has already been fulfilled (in a figurative, spiritual sense).
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Revelation 19:1 ¶And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God . . .
The people in the church who will be dwelling in heaven at the end-of-the-tribulation time of Revelation 19:1 will be those who have died (cf. Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8, Revelation 6:9-11) and those who are part of the 144,000 (Revelation 14:1,4,5, Textus Receptus; Revelation 12:5b).
Revelation 19:4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.
Note that the 24 elders could be 24 chief angels who, along with the 4 beasts/seraphims, have been worshipping God continually (as in 24 hours a day) for untold ages (Revelation 4:8-11, Isaiah 6:2-3). Just as the ancient Jewish temple on earth was modeled after the temple in heaven (Hebrews 9:23-24, Hebrews 8:5), so the 24 courses of the ancient Jewish chief priests on earth (1 Chronicles 24:7-18) could have been modeled after the 24 elders in heaven. God could have also patterned the 24 hours of the day on earth after the 24 elders in heaven. And he could have also patterned the church's 12 tribes of Israel and its 12 apostles (Revelation 21:9,12,14), together forming the number 24, after the 24 elders in heaven.
At the time of Revelation 5:8-9, the 24 elders and 4 beasts/seraphims could be singing before God the prayers of the church (Revelation 5:8c), just as subsequently we see an angel offering up before God the prayers of the church (Revelation 8:4). So in Revelation 5:9, the 24 elders and 4 beasts/seraphims can be singing words which don't apply to themselves, just as humans on earth can sing words which don't apply to themselves (e.g. James Taylor singing the words of the song "Millworker", which is the lament of a female millworker in the 19th century).
The 24 elders wearing crowns (Revelation 4:4) doesn't forbid them (as is sometimes claimed) from being angels. For if even the weird locust-like beings and the devil can wear crowns (Revelation 9:7, Revelation 12:3,9), then some angels can wear crowns.
Also, the 24 elders wearing white clothing (Revelation 4:4) doesn't forbid them (as is sometimes claimed) from being angels, for angels can wear white clothing (Revelation 15:6, John 20:12).
Also, the 24 elders sitting on thrones (Revelation 4:4) doesn't forbid them (as is sometimes claimed) from being angels. For if even the devil can sit on a throne (Revelation 2:13, Revelation 13:2b), then some angels can sit on thrones.
Also, the 24 elders being called "elders" (Revelation 4:4) doesn't forbid them (as is sometimes claimed) from being angels, even though angels don't age. For they can be a special group of elder angels simply in the sense of them having been created sometime before other angels.
It is sometimes claimed that the 24 elders can't possibly be angels because no other part of the Bible ever refers to angels as "elders". But this argument is like the argument of full preterism, which claims that the "elements" in 2 Peter 3:10,12 can't be physical because all the other verses in the Bible where the original Greek word "stoicheion" (G4747) is used, refer to non-physical elements. The truth is that the "elements" in 2 Peter 3:10,12 can be the only place in the Bible where "stoicheion" is used to refer to physical elements, just as, for example, Revelation 6:6 can be (and in fact is) the only place in the Bible where the Greek word "choinix" (G5518) is used at all. Similarly, Revelation can be the only place where "elders" refers to angels.
It is sometimes claimed that the 24 elders can't possibly be angels because they wear crowns of victory. But in Revelation 4:4, the original Greek word (stephanos: G4735) translated as crowns doesn't have to always refer to a crown of victory, but can sometimes refer to a crown signifying "honor generally" (Strong's Greek Dictionary). Also, angels can win victories (Revelation 12:7-9), and so can wear crowns of victory.
It is sometimes claimed that the 24 elders can't possibly be angels because they perform physical acts (Revelation 4:10). But angels can perform physical acts, like how the 2 angels who rescued Lot and his family grabbed their hands to hasten them out of the city (Genesis 19:1,16).
Revelation 19:6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
In Revelation 19:6, the "great multitude" could consist only of angels (cf. Revelation 5:11). For it could be distinguishing itself from the church, the "wife" in Revelation 19:7-8.
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Actually, he can, when God allows him to. For Satan killed Job's children (in one of their own houses) with a windstorm (Job 1:18-19). And Satan burned up Job's sheep and shepherds with a lightning storm (Job 1:16).
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That "system of corrupt doctrine" could be Gnosticism.
With regard to that verse and those that follow it:
2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
The Antichrist will have a False Prophet who will work amazing miracles (2 Thessalonians 2:9b) by which people will be deceived (Revelation 13:12-14, Revelation 19:20, cf. Matthew 24:24). And God will send strong delusion on unrepentant people so they will believe "the" lie (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12; in the original Greek, there is a "the" before "lie"), which could be the antichrist lie which has been around since the 1st century AD (2 John 1:7; 1 John 4:3; 2 Thessalonians 2:7a), and which in our future will deceive the world into consciously and openly worshipping both Lucifer (Satan) the dragon and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), the man of sin (2 Thessalonians 2:3-9), as God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). The antichrist lie denies Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22), denies Jesus is the human/divine Son of God (1 John 2:22b), and denies Christ is in the flesh (2 John 1:7), which denial is one of the key doctrines of Gnosticism.
Gnosticism is an ancient religious movement which says everything material is inherently evil, while only that which is pure spirit can be good. Gnosticism teaches all humans used to be pure spirit and dwelling in bliss from all eternity in a purely-spiritual heaven, called the "Pleroma", until by some mishap, humanity fell into the material universe and became trapped in fleshly bodies. Gnosticism reviles YHWH, the God of Biblical Christians, and the Creator of the material universe and all fleshly bodies, as an evil, subordinate deity, a "Demiurge", who is keeping humans imprisoned and suffering in fleshly bodies and in the material universe.
Gnosticism became one of the main enemies of the early church, and it will become the greatest enemy of the church during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. For the Antichrist will be a Gnostic. He will teach the Gnostic/antichrist lie that Christ isn't in the flesh (1 John 4:3). And the Antichrist, like the Gnostics, will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). The Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will instead bring the world into the conscious and open worship of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) and himself (Revelation 13:4,8, Revelation 12:9).
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Gnosticism has some core teachings in common with the major religions of Buddhism and Hinduism:
1. The material realm is unreal and evil. (Both Buddhism and Gnosticism got this mistaken idea, originally called "Maya", from Hinduism.)
2. People must strive to escape the material realm completely, and enter a state which is wholly non-physical (Parinirvana in Buddhism, the Pleroma in Gnosticism). Buddhism and Gnosticism got this mistaken idea, originally called "Brahman", from Hinduism.
3. The way for people to get free from their imprisonment within the material realm is through their minds attaining a certain level of enlightenment (Nirvana in Buddhism, Gnosis in Gnosticism). Buddhism and Gnosticism got this mistaken idea, originally called "Moksha", from Hinduism.
4. The way for their minds to attain this certain level of enlightenment is through following the way of the Serpent (one legend of Buddhism says the Buddha was given the true Buddhism by the King of the Serpents; and in Gnosticism, Gnosis comes from the Christ/the Serpent). Both Buddhism and Gnosticism got this mistaken idea of the enlightening serpent, originally called "Kundalini", from Hinduism. (Regarding the serpent in Genesis 3, Gnostics see him as the good guy, just as they see YHWH as the bad guy.)
The Bible contradicts each of the 4 points above:
1. The material realm is real, and was created by God as something very good (Genesis 1:31). God himself is in the flesh (John 1:1,14, Luke 24:39), and remains wholly without sin (Hebrews 4:15). So there is nothing evil about matter in itself.
2. People must strive to attain to a resurrection (Philippians 3:11), in an immortal human body of flesh and bones, like the immortal human body of flesh and bones that Jesus Christ obtained at his resurrection on the 3rd day after his death (Luke 24:39,46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4,21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Romans 8:23-25), and in which he will remain forever as believers' fully-human mediator/high priest (1 Timothy 2:5, Hebrews 2:16-17, Hebrews 7:24-26). His tomb is empty (Matthew 28:6), and when he returns, he will show the scars of the Crucifixion on his body (Zechariah 13:6, Zechariah 12:10-14).
3. Resurrected people who have been truly enlightened/illuminated (Ephesians 1:18, Hebrews 10:32) by Jesus Christ (John 14:6-7, John 8:32, John 3:36) will remain in the material realm (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29), ultimately living on a new earth with God (Revelation 21:1-4).
4. The Serpent, Satan/Lucifer, is the deceiver of the whole world (Revelation 12:9).
Are they saying that the papacy of Catholicism is the Antichrist? If so, note that the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast"), during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), won't support Catholicism in its past and current form, insofar as Catholicism affirms that Jesus is the Christ, while the Antichrist will deny that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22). And Catholicism affirms that Jesus is the Son of God, while the Antichrist will deny that Jesus is the Son of God (1 John 2:22b). And Catholicism affirms that Christ is in the flesh, while the Antichrist (like the Gnostics) will deny that Christ is in the flesh (2 John 1:7). And Catholicism affirms that the God of the Bible (YHWH) is the true God, while the Antichrist (like the Gnostics) will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). And Catholicism affirms that the only man who is God is Jesus Christ of Nazareth, while the Antichrist will say that he (the Antichrist) is God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). And Catholicism affirms that Lucifer (Satan) is evil, while the Antichrist will bring the world into the conscious and open worship of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9). So the Antichrist's religion during his 3.5-year worldwide reign won't be Catholicism in its past and current form, but a blend of Luciferianism and Gnosticism.
Nonetheless, before Lucifer gives the Antichrist power over all nations (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), the Antichrist, and the man who will be his False Prophet (Revelation 19:20), could at first pretend to support Catholicism (as well as Christianity generally, and also Islam), in order to start gaining a worldwide following.
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The beast which comes up out of the earth in Revelation 13:11-16 represents the individual man who will become the Antichrist's False Prophet (Revelation 19:20, Revelation 16:13). He could be a secretly-apostate pope who at some point during his tenure will make a great push for peace and unity between Christianity and Islam. He could say something like: "Why do we fight each other? Are we not all the spiritual children of Abraham and of his God, the one God? Can't we lay aside our foolish, man-made differences of theology, which have done us no good at all, but only brought us hatred and violence, and unite into one religion of Abraham, one religion of peace, based on love for the one God and love for our fellow man? What is more important than this?"
He could be so skillful in elucidating what the moderate Muslims could call "the true, peaceful, loving nature of Islam", that he could be hailed by them worldwide as (in their words) "a Great Imam, come to rescue our beloved Islam from the bad reputation falsely given to it by the terrorists". In this way, a pope could come to hold high positions of power in 2 religions at the same time, which could be symbolized by the 2 horns of the False Prophet lamb (Revelation 13:11). This would be similar to how the 7 horns of the true-Jesus lamb in Revelation 5:6 could represent the true Jesus holding 7 positions of power at the same time (cf. Jesus wearing many crowns at the same time in Revelation 19:12). The False Prophet could even say that he is Jesus. (But he won't say that he is Christ, for the False Prophet and the Antichrist will deny that Jesus is the Christ, and will deny that Christ is in the flesh: 1 John 2:22; 2 John 1:7.)
Once the False Prophet by his amazing miracles has brought the world under his spell (Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), including many Muslims and Christians who may not care much for scriptural dogma, but could go wild over his signs and wonders, he could begin to (in his words) "restore to the world the real message which was spoken by me (Jesus) at my first coming, and by the great prophet Mohammed, but which message became corrupted by power-hungry men when they copied and changed the early manuscripts of the Bible and the Koran". He could then gradually initiate the world into the Antichrist's Gnostic Luciferianism (1 John 4:3, Revelation 13:4-6), a religion which could have existed since ancient times in some "mystery" cults, and which still exists today in the highest degree of initiation of a worldwide secret society. The False Prophet could present his miraculously calling fire down from heaven (Revelation 13:13) as purported proof that Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist are the true God (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9), in an inversion of how back in Old Testament times, Elijah miraculously called fire down from heaven to prove that YHWH is the true God (1 Kings 18:37-39).
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If a secretly-apostate pope does become the Antichrist's False Prophet (of Revelation 13:11-16, Revelation 19:20, and Revelation 16:13), adherents of Catholicism will have to decide what their ultimate source of truth is: Is it the pope and the RCC, or God and the Bible? Many adherents of Catholicism who know God and the Bible well and hold to them as their ultimate source of truth will no doubt be utterly aghast at the false doctrines of a False Prophet pope. Such adherents of Catholicism could demand that he be removed for heresy and apostasy, and that the cardinals elect a new pope. But other adherents of Catholicism, including many cardinals, bishops, and priests, could be deceived (along with most of the rest of the world) into believing the False Prophet pope's false doctrines, because of his ability to perform the most amazing miracles (Revelation 13:13-14, Revelation 19:20; cf. Matthew 24:24).
And so a great schism could arise within the RCC. Compare the Akita prophecy: "The work of the devil will infiltrate even into the Church in such a way that one will see cardinals opposing cardinals, bishops against bishops". Many adherents of Catholicism could follow the False Prophet pope, while other adherents of Catholicism could reject him and eventually even elect their own, new pope (or reinstall a former pope who is still alive), whom they could declare to be the "True pope". But this new (or reinstated), "True pope" could then be murdered, along with many of his followers, by the False Prophet pope's soldiers. Compare the 3rd Secret of Fatima: "he [the pope] was killed by a group of soldiers who fired bullets and arrows at him, and in the same way there died one after another the other Bishops, Priests, men and women Religious, and various lay people of different ranks and positions". Could the soldiers firing "arrows" be the Vatican's Swiss Guards, whose weapons and colorful uniforms hark back to the Middle Ages?
After this slaughter, the False Prophet pope could manage to retain the papacy and full control of the Vatican, and through his (deceived) cardinals, bishops, and priests, retain full control of all RCC cathedrals, parishes, churches, etc., throughout the world. And when the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") obtains power over all nations, he and the False Prophet will make war against true, Biblical Christians (whether they are adherents of Catholicism or not) throughout the world, and will physically overcome them and kill them (by beheading) in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). It is only when the Antichrist has completely broken all the physical power of the true church (which consists of all true believers, whether they are adherents of Catholicism or not: Ephesians 4:4-6) that the future tribulation will end (Daniel 12:7b) and Jesus' 2nd coming will immediately occur, at which time he will physically resurrect and rapture (gather together) the church (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). At his 2nd coming, Jesus will tread the winepress of God's wrath alone (Isaiah 63:3, Revelation 19:15-21), and so he/God will get all the glory for defeating the power of evil on the earth (Deuteronomy 32:39-43), for he/God won't share this glory with the church (cf. Isaiah 42:8-14, Isaiah 26:18).
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In the same, scriptural place. For note that the "falling away" (Greek: apostasia) in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is the apostasy, when some in the church will depart from the faith in the latter times (1 Timothy 4:1), when the Antichrist is revealed (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4) and begins a worldwide persecution against the church (Matthew 24:9-13) during his worldwide reign (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Those in the church who fall away/commit apostasy will ultimately lose their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).
The meanings of the Greek word apostasia, as well as the Greek word it is derived from, aphistemi, include non-physical departure. For Acts 21:21 employs apostasia to refer to Jewish Christians in the 1st century AD forsaking, departing from, their former practice of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. And Luke 8:13 employs aphistemi to refer to Christians falling away, departing, from the faith. Also, at the rapture, the church won't physically depart from the earth (John 17:15,20, Proverbs 10:30), but will be caught up only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).
At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and the world's armies (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).
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Okayyyyyyyy
This one's my favorite. I'm sure it's written in the bible somewhere.
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2 Corin 5: 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Can we agree that when a believer in Christ dies his soul is in the presence of the Lord in heaven?
Rev 6: 9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Can we take this passage just as written and agree these are just “the souls of them that were slain” no one in this group has received their new glorified body that will be given at the resurrection? If you believe they have received their glorified bodies, on what do you base that belief?
Rev 7: 9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Clothed in white the same as those in Rev 6:11
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
We are told they came out of great tribulation. They are described as wearing white robes the same as those in Rev 6:11. The only argument I’ve heard to make these a raptured church is that there is a resurrection in Rev 6:12 that causes the earthquake. Also the idea that all believers go through tribulation so when John wrote “great tribulation he really didn’t mean the “great tribulation” he just meant general tribulation that all believers go through. John ask who this group were, one of the elders answered, maybe we should leave the words of John alone and believe he meant what he wrote and the elder knew what he was talking about.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
Rev 8: 3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
Where are these saints ? Are we to believe they are in heaven praying and an angel is needed to get their prayer delivered to the throne of God? These saints are still on earth.
Rev 13: 7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
The simple fact here is saints are overcome by AC this does not say AC is more powerful than the Holy Ghost as has been argued on this forum. Many saints have been and still are martyred this does not make AC more powerful than God. This is a bogus human reasoning argument.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
This verse clearly tells us everyone will not bow to AC. The saints are still here.
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
Rev 14: 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
Believers in Christ still on the earth.
Rev 15: 2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
Them that had gotten the victory over the beast are now in heaven. They obviously were here while AC is present .No mention of another resurrection to give them their glorified bodies. They are the same as every group other seen in heaven up to this point . They are just the souls of them that had gotten the victory over the beast.
3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
Who are these my people if not saints?
Rev 19: 6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
These are not raptured in their glorified bodies saints returning with Christ they are just who Paul said they were.
1 Thes 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
Rev 19: 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Jude 14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Zech 14: 5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Here in Rev 20 we have the same wording as Rev 6 “the souls of them”. There is no scriptural evidence of a resurrected in their glorified bodies church in heaven.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
How many first resurrections can there be? How many last trumps can there be? How many comings of the Lord yet unfulfilled can there be? Apparently with some as many as they can imagine.
Can we agree that when a believer in Christ dies his soul is in the presence of the Lord in heaven?
Rev 6: 9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Can we take this passage just as written and agree these are just “the souls of them that were slain” no one in this group has received their new glorified body that will be given at the resurrection? If you believe they have received their glorified bodies, on what do you base that belief?
Rev 7: 9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Clothed in white the same as those in Rev 6:11
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
We are told they came out of great tribulation. They are described as wearing white robes the same as those in Rev 6:11. The only argument I’ve heard to make these a raptured church is that there is a resurrection in Rev 6:12 that causes the earthquake. Also the idea that all believers go through tribulation so when John wrote “great tribulation he really didn’t mean the “great tribulation” he just meant general tribulation that all believers go through. John ask who this group were, one of the elders answered, maybe we should leave the words of John alone and believe he meant what he wrote and the elder knew what he was talking about.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
Rev 8: 3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
Where are these saints ? Are we to believe they are in heaven praying and an angel is needed to get their prayer delivered to the throne of God? These saints are still on earth.
Rev 13: 7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
The simple fact here is saints are overcome by AC this does not say AC is more powerful than the Holy Ghost as has been argued on this forum. Many saints have been and still are martyred this does not make AC more powerful than God. This is a bogus human reasoning argument.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
This verse clearly tells us everyone will not bow to AC. The saints are still here.
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
Rev 14: 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
Believers in Christ still on the earth.
Rev 15: 2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
Them that had gotten the victory over the beast are now in heaven. They obviously were here while AC is present .No mention of another resurrection to give them their glorified bodies. They are the same as every group other seen in heaven up to this point . They are just the souls of them that had gotten the victory over the beast.
3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
Who are these my people if not saints?
Rev 19: 6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
These are not raptured in their glorified bodies saints returning with Christ they are just who Paul said they were.
1 Thes 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
Rev 19: 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Jude 14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Zech 14: 5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Here in Rev 20 we have the same wording as Rev 6 “the souls of them”. There is no scriptural evidence of a resurrected in their glorified bodies church in heaven.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
How many first resurrections can there be? How many last trumps can there be? How many comings of the Lord yet unfulfilled can there be? Apparently with some as many as they can imagine.
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Matt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Rev 6: 12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
If Matt 24:29-31 doesn’t line up with Rev 6:12-17 where does it fit into the book of Revelation?
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Rev 6: 12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
If Matt 24:29-31 doesn’t line up with Rev 6:12-17 where does it fit into the book of Revelation?
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Lamad said in Post #2732
“The truth is, posttrib doctrine is built as a house of cards. WHERE would your doctrine be if Matthew 24 was really a gathering of the Jews and Hebrews back to Israel. WHERE would your theory be if KJV had translated apostasia as "departing?"”
There is no scriptural justification for “elect” in Matt 24 being Jews.
Matthew 24:22, Matthew 24:24, Matthew 24:31 Mark 13:20, Mark 13:22, Mark 13:27, Luke 18:7, Ro. 8:33, Col 3:12, 1 Tim 5:21, 2 Tim 2:10, Titus 1:1, 1 Peter 1:2, 1 Peter 2:6, 2 John 1:1, 2 John 1:13.
Which of these would you say refer clearly to Jews and why?
You know very well the overwhelming majority of translations do not agree with your view on apostasia as departing, as in departing of the church. Cherrie picking a minority view translation sounds like a good example of a “house of cards”.
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The mystery that Paul revealed is not about a secret coming of Jesus but that those in Christ still alive unto the coming of Jesus will be changed into immortality at the same moment that the dead in Christ will rise.Mystery solved.You can thanks me and Paul later to have clarify this for you !!!
1 Corinthians 15:51-52
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
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When that moment is, is the question. Since we go to heaven to be with Him where He is, it cannot be when He returns with us to earth to conquer.
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Unto the coming of the Lord.1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 is the sister passage about the resurrection of those who died Christ and what will happen to those in Christ still alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord which is after the Tribulation.
Show us the verse in the whole 1 Corinthians 15 Chapter or 1 Thessalonians 4 chapter saying that after the resurrection of those who died/sleep in Christ and the changing into immortality of those in Christ still alive we are caught up to Heaven ?
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keras
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Revelation 6:12-17 is the next prophesied event we can expect. It is the terrible Day of the Lord's wrath, a worldwide disaster by fire of a similar magnitude to Noah's flood. It will set the scene for the rest of what is prophesied to happen until the Return.
Matthew 24:29-31 describes the Return in glory for the Millennium reign of Jesus.
That these Bible passages describe two different events, is plain from the celestial happenings; at the Sixth Seal, the moon shines blood red. At the Return, it will not give any light.
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Not if that coming is when we are taken to heaven to be with Him!
John 14, Jesus clears that up Personally. He will come again and take us to be with Him in the place He prepared.
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We are caught up together with Him on His way down to Jerusalem, on His way down from heaven to the mount of Olives, where we will remain with Him.
JLB
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iamlamad
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How can anyone miss this as well as misinterpreting so many other scriptures?
It is VERY THICK preconceived glasses. They are SUCH a bother, preventing people from seeing ANYTHING but their preconceptions.
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