Full Preterism On The Rebuilding Of God's Temple

parousia70 · Oct 14, 2015

robycop3 said:
Let SCRIPTURE speak:

Daniel 9:26-27, HCSB:""26 ... The people of the coming prince will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come with a flood, and until the end there will be war; desolations are decreed. 27 He [=the prince, Antichrist ] will make a firm covenant with many for one week [the 70th week], but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and offering. And the abomination of desolation will be on a wing of the temple, until the decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator.""

That translation is atrocious.

Here's what it really says, and I'll pick a better, unbiased translation:

Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince, (the prince who is to come)
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times.

“And after the sixty-two weeks (in the 70th week)
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And (after the 70th week) the people (The Jews) of the prince who is to come (Messiah - the antecedent from vs 25)
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

Then he (Messiah the Prince) shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; (The 70th)
But in the middle of the (70th) week
He (Messiah) shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.(on the cross)
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”
(On the desolate, ie, The City and Sanctuary, not "on the desolator", as your horrible translation has it.)

The Zealot Revolt of the Jews was the incendiary event that set the destruction into motion. They were the responsible party. The Jews destroyed their own city and sanctuary. By the time the Romans breached the walls it was merely a cleanup operation.

Jesus CONFIRMED the EVERLASTING covenant For one week. The One Week time frame was placed on the confirmation, not on the Covenant itself (A glaring error in the translation you cited)

Jesus Confirmed the Everlasting covenant with the Jews exclusively for 1 week of years, the first half by His earthly ministry, and the 2nd half by the Ministry of the apostles to the Jews. In the midst of that week Jesus was Cut off, and By His sacrifice brought an end to all other sacrifice and offering> as far as God was concerned, any other sacrifice and offering from that point forward, was moot.

jerry kelso · Oct 14, 2015

parousia70 said:
That translation is atrocious.

Here's what it really says, and I'll pick a better, unbiased translation:

Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince, (the prince who is to come)
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times.

“And after the sixty-two weeks (in the 70th week)
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And (after the 70th week) the people (The Jews) of the prince who is to come (Messiah - the antecedent from vs 25)
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

Then he (Messiah the Prince) shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; (The 70th)
But in the middle of the (70th) week
He (Messiah) shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.(on the cross)
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”
(On the desolate, ie, The City and Sanctuary, not "on the desolator", as your horrible translation has it.)

The Zealot Revolt of the Jews was the incendiary event that set the destruction into motion. They were the responsible party. The Jews destroyed their own city and sanctuary. By the time the Romans breached the walls it was merely a cleanup operation.

Jesus CONFIRMED the EVERLASTING covenant For one week. The One Week time frame was placed on the confirmation, not on the Covenant itself (A glaring error in the translation you cited)

Jesus Confirmed the Everlasting covenant with the Jews exclusively for 1 week of years, the first half by His earthly ministry, and the 2nd half by the Ministry of the apostles to the Jews. In the midst of that week Jesus was Cut off, and By His sacrifice brought an end to all other sacrifice and offering> as far as God was concerned, any other sacrifice and offering from that point forward, was moot.

parousia 70,

1. There were 483 years from the third decree to the crucifixion of the Messiah, or 69 of the seventy sevens of years, leaving the last period of seven years concerning Israel and Jerusalem to be fulfilled after the crucifixion.

2. Daniel 9:24-27 gives the account of making an end of transgressions, making an end of sins and making reconciliation for iniquity and to bring in everlasting righteousness happened at Calvary which is the spiritual application to do away with sin and give the possibility for people to be saved.
Then Daniel is told to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most holy. This phrase, "anoint the most Holy" is never about a person but the temple and the context of cleansing the temple in the millennial kingdom. The jews would have never used this term for the Messiah.
Confirming the covenant is after the Messiah being cut off for 1 week of 7 years is still in the future. The "Abomination of Desolation" has happened more than once before to Israel but is not the context of Revelation 11:1-3. The spiritual end of transgressions etc. happened at Calvary but not for the nation of Israel because they rejected Christ (Matthew 23:37-39) in Jesus ministry. The new covenant has not happened for the nation of Israel (Hebrews 8:7-13).
So you do not understand fully the nation of Israel's covenant promises that have not been fulfilled but will in the future.
Paul would have never stated the context of being heavy burdened for his kinsfolk of Israel not fulfilling their covenant. Read Romans 9-11.
One has to reconcile the scriptures and the correct history and proper biblical hermeneutics to understand the proper overall context.
Last, why do you want Israel to be finished with their covenant? Do you think the church has taken their place? If you do you don't understand the purpose of Israel's or the churches. Jerry kelso

robycop3 · Oct 15, 2015

parousia70 said:
That translation is atrocious.

Here's what it really says, and I'll pick a better, unbiased translation:

Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince, (the prince who is to come)
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times.

“And after the sixty-two weeks (in the 70th week)
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And (after the 70th week) the people (The Jews) of the prince who is to come (Messiah - the antecedent from vs 25)
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

Then he (Messiah the Prince) shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; (The 70th)
But in the middle of the (70th) week
He (Messiah) shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.(on the cross)
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”
(On the desolate, ie, The City and Sanctuary, not "on the desolator", as your horrible translation has it.)

The Zealot Revolt of the Jews was the incendiary event that set the destruction into motion. They were the responsible party. The Jews destroyed their own city and sanctuary. By the time the Romans breached the walls it was merely a cleanup operation.

Jesus CONFIRMED the EVERLASTING covenant For one week. The One Week time frame was placed on the confirmation, not on the Covenant itself (A glaring error in the translation you cited)

Jesus Confirmed the Everlasting covenant with the Jews exclusively for 1 week of years, the first half by His earthly ministry, and the 2nd half by the Ministry of the apostles to the Jews. In the midst of that week Jesus was Cut off, and By His sacrifice brought an end to all other sacrifice and offering> as far as God was concerned, any other sacrifice and offering from that point forward, was moot.

You're avoiding the FACT this destruction was NOT the great trib. The PROOF is very simple, straightforward, and irrefutable. And it's in Matthew 24:29-30, where Jesus said He'd return IMMEDIATELY after the great trib, amid a great cosmological disturbance. And obviously, He hasn't yet returned.

preterists wanna consign His words here to the realm of symbolism/allegory cuz they cannot find those events in history, but there's simply NO valid reason to do so, given the FACT that the prophesied events in the olivet Discourse and related prophecies that HAVE already cometa pass have done so LITERALLY, to the letter. There's NO valid reaon to believe that Jesus suddenly switched to allegory in mid-Discourse!

The simple truth is, THOSE OTHER EVENTS HAVEN'T YET OCCURRED!

robycop3 · Oct 15, 2015

jerry kelso said:
parousia 70,

1. There were 483 years from the third decree to the crucifixion of the Messiah, or 69 of the seventy sevens of years, leaving the last period of seven years concerning Israel and Jerusalem to be fulfilled after the crucifixion.

2. Daniel 9:24-27 gives the account of making an end of transgressions, making an end of sins and making reconciliation for iniquity and to bring in everlasting righteousness happened at Calvary which is the spiritual application to do away with sin and give the possibility for people to be saved.
Then Daniel is told to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most holy. This phrase, "anoint the most Holy" is never about a person but the temple and the context of cleansing the temple in the millennial kingdom. The jews would have never used this term for the Messiah.
Confirming the covenant is after the Messiah being cut off for 1 week of 7 years is still in the future. The "Abomination of Desolation" has happened more than once before to Israel but is not the context of Revelation 11:1-3. The spiritual end of transgressions etc. happened at Calvary but not for the nation of Israel because they rejected Christ (Matthew 23:37-39) in Jesus ministry. The new covenant has not happened for the nation of Israel (Hebrews 8:7-13).
So you do not understand fully the nation of Israel's covenant promises that have not been fulfilled but will in the future.
Paul would have never stated the context of being heavy burdened for his kinsfolk of Israel not fulfilling their covenant. Read Romans 9-11.
One has to reconcile the scriptures and the correct history and proper biblical hermeneutics to understand the proper overall context.
Last, why do you want Israel to be finished with their covenant? Do you think the church has taken their place? If you do you don't understand the purpose of Israel's or the churches. Jerry kelso

I think it's VERY obvious the New Covenant hasn't sunk into the vast majority of the Jews.

And God has NOT replaced Israel in prophecy with the Church! that myth is called "replacement theology" and is as phony as preterism. The prophecies for Israel, Judah, or Jacob still apply to those people only.

Yes, Jesus is gonna "force" Himself upon Israel and Judah despite themselves! He's gonna show them He IS Messiah.

parousia70 · Oct 15, 2015

jerry kelso said:
parousia 70,

1. There were 483 years from the third decree to the crucifixion of the Messiah, or 69 of the seventy sevens of years, leaving the last period of seven years concerning Israel and Jerusalem to be fulfilled after the crucifixion.

Rather, there were 483 years (the end of week 69 of the 70) from the decree to the Anointing of Messiah, which occurred at His Baptism by John, 3.5 years before His crucifixion. He was Crucified "in the middle" of week 70

Daniel prophesied in verse 25 that from the commandment to restore and rebuild Israel to the coming of the Messiah is 483 years. The question comes to "which decree is it?"

Here are the decrees:

The Decree of Cyrus - about 536 BC
* Ezra 1:2-4 Cyrus sends folks out to build the temple.
* The math: 536 - 483 = 53 BC.
* Guess what? No Messiah in 53BC.

The Decree of Artaxerxes - about 534 BC
* Ezra 4:17-22 Artaxerxes' decree here is actually to stop building and wait, not to start.
* Scratch that one.

Haggai and Zechariah Prophesy
* Ezra 5:1-3 Here Zerubbabel and Jeshua build, but no decree is mentioned.
* Scratch that.

Darius quotes Cyrus - about 520 BC
* Ezra 6:1-5 Darius simply quotes Cyrus, but in vv. 6-12, Darius sends out a decree.
* The math: 520 - 483 = 37 BC (some say 33BC...it's close enough I reckon).
* Maybe this was when Theudas popped up?
* Scratch this one, no Messiah.

Ezra 6:14
* "According to the commandment of God, of Cyrus, of Darius, and of Artaxerxes they builded and finished it."
* But look carefully at the decree above of Artaxerxes. His decree was to stop building and wait.
* So they couldn't have been talking about his decree.

Decree of Artaxerxes - 458 BC
* Ezra 7:12 - 26 Artaxerxes makes the decree.
* The math: 483-458 = 25, but there was no 0 AD nor 0 BC, so that makes 26 AD.
* What happened in 26 AD?

Mark 1:9 And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.

Mark 1:10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:

Messiah the Prince came and the Spirit, like a dove, descended upon Him. So began the ministry of Jesus Christ.
What is 483 + 7? 490 years. Simple.

Jesus' first coming and ministry on this earth, through to His death, burial and resurrection and subsequent 3.5 year ministry to the Jews exclusively by the apostles, fulfilled the 70th week of Daniel completely.

2. Daniel 9:24-27 gives the account of making an end of transgressions, making an end of sins and making reconciliation for iniquity and to bring in everlasting righteousness happened at Calvary which is the spiritual application to do away with sin and give the possibility for people to be saved.
Then Daniel is told to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most holy. This phrase, "anoint the most Holy" is never about a person but the temple and the context of cleansing the temple in the millennial kingdom. The jews would have never used this term for the Messiah.
Confirming the covenant is after the Messiah being cut off for 1 week of 7 years is still in the future. The "Abomination of Desolation" has happened more than once before to Israel but is not the context of Revelation 11:1-3. The spiritual end of transgressions etc. happened at Calvary but not for the nation of Israel because they rejected Christ (Matthew 23:37-39) in Jesus ministry. The new covenant has not happened for the nation of Israel (Hebrews 8:7-13).
So you do not understand fully the nation of Israel's covenant promises that have not been fulfilled but will in the future.
Paul would have never stated the context of being heavy burdened for his kinsfolk of Israel not fulfilling their covenant. Read Romans 9-11.

Why are 70 weeks determined? To do these things:
1. to finish the transgression
2. to make an end of sins
3. to make reconciliation for iniquity
4. to bring in everlasting righteousness
5. to seal up the vision and prophecy
6. to anoint the most Holy

1. Finish the Transgression.
Recall that to begin with, the Jews were in captivity for 490 years because of not honoring the Sabbath - they didn't give the land rest every seven years. The 70 years of capitivity in Babylon gave the land its rest. This is in 2 Chronicles 36- it's a whole lot of verses. Then God gives them another 490 years - maybe this time is their last chance.

2. Make an End of Sins.
Though we still sin, our sins no longer have power to prevent us from salvation. Jesus, by fulfilling the Law, ended sins strength. Sin is now utterly powerless.

3. Make Reconciliation for Iniquity.
Only Jesus could do this. He came to make reconciliation for us.

4. Bring in Everlasting Righteousness
Jesus Himself said that He fulfilled all righteousness.

5. Seal up the Vision and Prophecy
Contrary to what most teach about this passage, "seal up" doesn't mean to hide it from men's understanding until the last days. From Strong's, seal is [2856] chatham: meaning to close up, make an end of, stop. So Jesus made the end of this vision and prophecy. It doesn't say "all visions and prophecies" for you naysayers. It says "the vision..."

6. Anoint the Most Holy
Again, Jesus was anointed at His baptism in Mark 1. He is the Most Holy.

One has to reconcile the scriptures and the correct history and proper biblical hermeneutics to understand the proper overall context.

That's what I have done here.

Last, why do you want Israel to be finished with their covenant? Do you think the church has taken their place? If you do you don't understand the purpose of Israel's or the churches. Jerry kelso

You have a bizarre idea of who is Israel (you apparently count the disobedient sons of Abraham as Israel while discounting entirely the faithful sons of Abraham).

St. Paul said that when the nation was in mass apostasy, the TRUE Israel was carried on not through the lineages of the wicked sons but rather through the OBEDIENT FEW (called the "remnant"), such as was true in Isaiah's day (Romans 9:27-29) and Elijah's day (Romans 11:3-5).

Peter says the same thing at Acts 3:22-24, where it is clear that the wicked jews who refuse Christ were to be "cut off from among the People of Israel" while the faithful jews (John the Baptist, Joseph and Mary, the Twelve, the Seventy, the three thousand on Pentecost day, and many other jews) were the True Faithful Israel.

Just as the jewish church abode with Moses in the wilderness (Acts 7:37-38), so Jesus had HIS jewish church (Mt. 16:18-19). And within a few years after Pentecost, the faithful Israel learned how to start accepting both jewish and also gentile followers from all over the empire to convert into their Nation (1 Peter 2:9-10; Mt 21:40-45). And so the tiny remnant True Israel grew into a worldwide Judaism living under the promised NEW covenant of Israel's Messiah.

And so it was also in Moses' day, when the countless thousands of wicked sons of Abraham were slain in the wilderness while the faithful sons of Abraham survived and got to enter the Promised Land. We must NEVER count the continuation of Israel through the wicked sons but rather always through the faithful remnant!

Why would you insist that there are biblical Jews today who exist with no covenant, no known genealogies, no priesthood of Aaron, no Temple, and no observance of Torah as Moses commanded?!?!? Friend, you have fabricated for yourself a new definition of "Jew" that has nothing in common with the bible's understanding of "Jew." Covenants have everything to do with being a Jew, and yet you have some group today that you call Jews who have no covenant religion in the way that the REAL Jews of the bible did.

I hate to break the news to you, but Israel survived *exclusively* in the sect of the Nazarenes. They received with joy their promised New Covenant and obediently rejected all former biases against the non-Abrahamic families of earth so that Genesis 12:3 might finally be attained (Gal 3:7-9/Rom 4:13-18)---via the work of the Jewish Messiah. This sole surviving form of covenant Judaism is known worldwide today as Christianity, the Jewish church gone global. The church always was the covenanted Israel(Acts 7:37-38), the church continues to be the covenanted Israel. The only difference is that the NEW covenant of Israel enabled Jewish fullness to be bestowed upon gentile people groups (Gen 12:3).

parousia70 · Oct 15, 2015

robycop3 said:
You're avoiding the FACT this destruction was NOT the great trib. The PROOF is very simple, straightforward, and irrefutable. And it's in Matthew 24:29-30, where Jesus said He'd return IMMEDIATELY after the great trib, amid a great cosmological disturbance.

I'm confident our readers have be thoroughly shown that you Hyper literalize the language of "great cosmolgiocal disturbance" in total and complete absence of any scriptural instruction to do so, and in fact do so in complete, polar opposite fashion to how the prophets of God used and understood this language.

That you continue to refuse to align your views with those of the Prophets, speaks volumes.

Justme · Oct 15, 2015

robycop3 said:
I think it's VERY obvious the New Covenant hasn't sunk into the vast majority of the Jews.

And God has NOT replaced Israel in prophecy with the Church! that myth is called "replacement theology" and is as phony as preterism. The prophecies for Israel, Judah, or Jacob still apply to those people only.

Yes, Jesus is gonna "force" Himself upon Israel and Judah despite themselves! He's gonna show them He IS Messiah.

It should have sunk into the Jews, representatives of every nation of Jews was given the Holy Spirit

Acts 2
5 Now there were Jews living in Jerusalem, devout men from every nation under heaven.
Justme

parousia70 · Oct 15, 2015

jerry kelso said:
So you do not understand fully the nation of Israel's covenant promises that have not been fulfilled but will in the future.

Like this one?:

Zechariah 13:8
8 And it shall come to pass in all the land,”
Says the Lord,
“That two-thirds in it shall be cut off and die,
But one–third shall be left in it:

I wonder how today's Israelis would feel about your "support" for the notion that 2/3 of them must be violently exterminated in our near future?
Would they call that a "Pro Israel" stance?
Do you?

jerry kelso · Oct 15, 2015

parousia70 said:
Like this one?:

Zechariah 13:8
8 And it shall come to pass in all the land,”
Says the Lord,
“That two-thirds in it shall be cut off and die,
But one–third shall be left in it:

I wonder how today's Israelis would feel about your "support" for the notion that 2/3 of them must be violently exterminated in our near future?
Would they call that a "Pro Israel" stance?
Do you?

parousia70,

1. Paul already said they were blinded and the prophecy talks about 2/3 cut off. These 2/3 will be rebels in the nation that will not surrender their hearts to the Lord. This is why 1/3 will remain to the remnant. Isaiah said, God always had a remnant in times past (Isaiah 1:9).

2. Much of Israel are atheists and do not believe in the Messiah. The pro Israel stance is standing with them as God's chosen people who still have a covenant to be fulfilled in being at the head of the nations. This will be the kingdom message in the future tribulation for they will be looking for the kingdom as the disciples were still looking in Acts 1:6-7 and Jesus said it wasn't for them to know at that time and only the Father knew the time.

4. In the tribulation which is a purging as in Daniel 9:24-27 because they will realize that their national light will almost be snuffed out and they will cry unto God to save them. They will recognize the suffering lamb the first time is who they rejected and Jeremiah 31:31-32 will be fulfilled in those days and Hebrews 8:7-13 backs this up.

5. The church is making them jealous for God right now and this is one thing Paul was talking about in Romans 11:11.

6. As far as their personal opinion is that those who are not new covenant believers may not like it and agree with it and I wouldn't expect anything less. They don't like the fact that the law of Moses was abolished and that is why they are blinded and have the veil over their face in the reading of the old testament. (1 Corinthians 3:16).

7. Those jewish believers that are new covenant believers know they are in the church, know that the nation is backslidden and out of covenant and know that they still have a covenant with God and pray for them and preach the truth. Unbelievers are always at odds with believers and it is no different in this subject. Jerry Kelso

parousia70 · Oct 15, 2015

jerry kelso said:
parousia70,

1. Paul already said they were blinded and the prophecy talks about 2/3 cut off. These 2/3 will be rebels in the nation that will not surrender their hearts to the Lord. This is why 1/3 will remain to the remnant. Isaiah said, God always had a remnant in times past (Isaiah 1:9).

This already happened in the 1st century, and the rebels were crushed to powder when the Lord of the Vineyard, the Chief cornerstone, came to them in Judgement, just as Jesus told them, to their faces, that they would be (Matthew 21:33-45)

jerry kelso · Oct 15, 2015

parousia70 said:
This already happened in the 1st century, and the rebels were crushed to powder when the Lord of the Vineyard, the Chief cornerstone, came to them in Judgement, just as Jesus told them, to their faces, that they would be (Matthew 21:33-45)

parousia70,
Matthew 21:33-45; This parable is about the rejection of Christ by Israel. The point was that the servants were killed and the son was expected to be reverenced and he wasn't and they killed him because they wanted to seize the inheritance. The son was Jesus Christ who was crucified. The Lord of the vineyard would come and kill those wicked men and this was the reason Jesus was the head of the corner that the builders rejected and would be a stone of stumbling for those jews and gentiles.
The Kingdom of God taken away was not the physical kingdom but the spiritual as in Luke 17:20 and Matthew 6:33. To believe it happened in the 1st century is foreign to the immediate context or any future context. It is subjectional on your part to think this. If anything the rebels crushed to powder would have been 70 A.D. because this is when Jerusalem destroyed.
Zechariah was a prophecy concerning the future kingdom that has not been consummated because the context is the day of the Lord which has not happened yet and was not in Jesus day for it refers to the millennial kingdom reign. Jerry kelso

parousia70 · Oct 15, 2015

jerry kelso said:
If anything the rebels crushed to powder would have been 70 A.D. because this is when Jerusalem destroyed. Jerry kelso

EXACTLY Jerry. And in Matt 21, Jesus called that 70AD event "The Coming of the Lord of the Vineyard"
I happen to agree with Jesus on this.

jerry kelso · Oct 15, 2015

parousia70 said:
EXACTLY Jerry. And in Matt 21, Jesus called that 70AD event "The Coming of the Lord of the Vineyard"
I happen to agree with Jesus on this.

parousia70, Zechariah has nothing to do with the timing of the rebels being destroyed at 70 A.D.
In Zechariah it's talking about the future Day of the Lord when Israel will be a nation born in one day permanently and rule and reign forever (Isaiah 66:7-8). In Zechariah the remnant is left to be God's people and fulfill their covenants of Abraham and David's. In Jesus parable there is no remnant even mentioned going into rulership as the head of the nations etc. Jerry Kelso

parousia70 · Oct 15, 2015

jerry kelso said:
parousia70, Zechariah has nothing to do with the timing of the rebels being destroyed at 70 A.D.
In Zechariah it's talking about the future Day of the Lord when Israel will be a nation born in one day permanently and rule and reign forever (Isaiah 66:7-8). In Zechariah the remnant is left to be God's people and fulfill their covenants of Abraham and David's. In Jesus parable there is no remnant even mentioned going into rulership as the head of the nations etc. Jerry Kelso

Do you agree or disagree with Jesus' depiction of the 70AD event as "the coming of the Lord of the Vineyard"?

jerry kelso · Oct 15, 2015

parousia70 said:
Do you agree or disagree with Jesus' depiction of the 70AD event as "the coming of the Lord of the Vineyard"?

parousia70,
Parables have a main point and the point is that Israel rejected Christ and killed Christ and the Lord of the vineyard would kill the wicked men and give the kingdom of God to others. I already said 70 A.D. is when the jewish wicked men were destroyed and the whole nation of Israel was dispersed until 1948. The church was who has the kingdom of God spiritual aspect and Paul says the kingdom of his dear son which is the spiritual kingdom was given to the church. jerry kelso
This has nothing to do with canceling Israel's position in the future kingdom. Jerry Kelso

parousia70 · Oct 16, 2015

jerry kelso said:
parousia70,
Parables have a main point and the point is that Israel rejected Christ and killed Christ and the Lord of the vineyard would kill the wicked men and give the kingdom of God to others. I already said 70 A.D. is when the jewish wicked men were destroyed and the whole nation of Israel was dispersed

But do You believe 70 AD was "The Coming of the Lord" as Jesus prophesied it would be??

until 1948.

There is no prophesy about 1948 in scripture.
Modern Israel is a multi ethnic secular democracy, not a Hebrew Theocracy.
They have zero relationship to the pre desolation nation. Not religiously, not genetically, not politically.
Modern Secular Israel is not the "re constitution" of Mosaic Biblical Israel.

The church was who has the kingdom of God spiritual aspect and Paul says the kingdom of his dear son which is the spiritual kingdom was given to the church.

Again, the Church is a JEWISH entity, which existed all the way back in Moses' time, and is made up of the remnant faithful of Israel.

There is no Israel apart from the Faithful Remnant in God's eyes, and Faithful Remnant Israel is the Nazarene sect, the sole surviving form of Covenant Judaism is known worldwide today as Christianity.

This has nothing to do with canceling Israel's position in the future kingdom. Jerry Kelso

See above, and as I said before, You have a bizarre idea of who Israel is. You count the disobedient sons of Abraham as Israel while rejecting entirely the faithful sons of Abraham.

Why would you insist that there are biblical Jews today who exist with no covenant, no known genealogies, no priesthood of Aaron, no Temple, and no observance of Torah as Moses commanded?!?!? Again, you have fabricated for yourself a new definition of "Jew" that has nothing in common with the bible's understanding of "Jew." Covenants have everything to do with being a Jew, and yet you have some group today that you call Jews who have no covenant religion in the way that the REAL Jews of the bible did.

We must NEVER count the continuation of Israel through the wicked sons but rather always through the faithful remnant!

Israel is = King Jesus Christ and His JEWISH followers, with Gentile converts brought in as "Fellow Citizens".

Israel is NOT = Christ Rejectors of ANY stripe, in ANY location.

jerry kelso · Oct 16, 2015

parousia70 said:
But do You believe 70 AD was "The Coming of the Lord" as Jesus prophesied it would be??

There is no prophesy about 1948 in scripture.
Modern Israel is a multi ethnic secular democracy, not a Hebrew Theocracy.
They have zero relationship to the pre desolation nation. Not religiously, not genetically, not politically.
Modern Secular Israel is not the "re constitution" of Mosaic Biblical Israel.

Again, the Church is a JEWISH entity, which existed all the way back in Moses' time, and is made up of the remnant faithful of Israel.

There is no Israel apart from the Faithful Remnant in God's eyes, and Faithful Remnant Israel is the Nazarene sect, the sole surviving form of Covenant Judaism is known worldwide today as Christianity.

See above, and as I said before, You have a bizarre idea of who Israel is. You count the disobedient sons of Abraham as Israel while rejecting entirely the faithful sons of Abraham.

Why would you insist that there are biblical Jews today who exist with no covenant, no known genealogies, no priesthood of Aaron, no Temple, and no observance of Torah as Moses commanded?!?!? Again, you have fabricated for yourself a new definition of "Jew" that has nothing in common with the bible's understanding of "Jew." Covenants have everything to do with being a Jew, and yet you have some group today that you call Jews who have no covenant religion in the way that the REAL Jews of the bible did.

We must NEVER count the continuation of Israel through the wicked sons but rather always through the faithful remnant!

Israel is = King Jesus Christ and His JEWISH followers, with Gentile converts brought in as "Fellow Citizens".

Israel is NOT = Christ Rejectors of ANY stripe, in ANY location.

parousia70,

1. The Lord of the vineyard destroying the wicked men was not the coming of the Lord of Christ coming back for Israel to establish the kingdom. This never happened in A.D. 70 for they were destroyed.

2. I never said anything about 1948 in scripture even though some jewish rabbis do believe it is. Isaiah 66:6-7 is not about this point in time even though history records they were a nation in one day but not because God came back and saved them from destruction of the future tribulation.

3. I didn't say modern Israel is a hebrew theocracy. On the contrary, I stated they are for the most part atheist and they are blind by the reading of the old testament etc. 2 Corinthians 3:14-15.
I didn't say they were a reconstruction of Mosaic Biblical Israel. One they don't have the temple and can not do sacrifice even though they are working on it as we speak.

4. The church is not a jewish entity of the natural seed. There is no scriptures that says that. We are spiritual Israel as far as being a true believer. The church has a heavenly calling and Israel the nation an earthly calling. The church is not made of a jewish remnant just because they started the early church. We have roots of judaism but the church is both jews and gentiles in one body alike and on the same ground as being equals in Christ. This has nothing to do with canceling out their gifts and callings.
The future tribulation will be the purging of Israel and to receive their covenant promises to Abraham and David. I have already explained this and gave scripture for both of these.
What scriptures say that the nazarenes are the specific faithful remnant? I am curious!.
I don't reject Israel's faithful children of Abraham for they are the true spiritual jew but all jews are the jewish race.

5. Biblical jews are a part of the church age today. This doesn't mean that they cannot be jews culturally or that they have no geneologies. They have no Aaronic priesthood for they do not have the temple or temple sacrifices. Also, Christ is the new priesthood which is of the Melchizadek priesthood. Read Hebrews 7. There are many orthodox jews that observe Torah like Moses today. The jews were to have the law forever. However, the law is to be the new covenant written on their hearts and not according to the Mosaic ethic. The Mosaic law of the old covenant was done away with at Calvary (2 Corinthians 3:1-16). The new covenant will not be made with the nation itself until the tribulation in the future. It won't totally happen until Christ comes back. Jeremiah 31:31-32 and Hebrews 8:7-13.

6. The continuation of Israel is not through the wicked sons of Israel for 2/3 will be cut off of the wicked rebels of Israel in the tribulation (Zechariah 13:9). I have already said this so why don't you believe me? You seem to be misunderstanding what I believe and what the word says but maybe this will help. Jerry Kelso

parousia70 · Oct 16, 2015

jerry kelso said:
parousia70,

The church is not a jewish entity of the natural seed. There is no scriptures that says that.

Rather, Scripture concretely affirms that The "church" is a Jewish society and is the faithful jews, who exist all the way back at the time of Moses (Acts 7:38). Jesus tells the Jewish apostles at Matt 16:18-19 that Peter was commanding God's church in his day, even as Moses had done so in his generation (Acts 7:38). None of the apostles knew of gentile inclusion into the Church until years after Pentecost. The Church was the Nazarene sect of the Jews of first-century Israel who entered into Messiah's New Covenant, as had been prophesied to Israel.

The Church is indeed The Nazarene sect of Judaism, of whom Paul was "a ringleader" (Acts 24:5). The other sects (Sadducees, Zealots, Essenes, and Pharisees) who opposed the Nazarenes were cut off from among the people at AD 70, as St. Peter warned in Acts 3:22-24).

The Church is a Jewish entity of Israel which later began accepting converts from non-jewish corners of the world.

5. Biblical jews are a part of the church age today.

Can you show us this "church age" from scripture?
When, according to scripture did it begin?
Does it, according to scripture have an end?

The Mosaic law of the old covenant was done away with at Calvary (2 Corinthians 3:1-16).

How do you reconcile that with Hebrews 8:13?
The writer of Hebrews clearly states the old covenant was still in effect at that time, but growing old and ready to vanish.

The new covenant will not be made with the nation itself until the tribulation in the future.

Rather, Just like the Faithful remnant Church of Israel with Moses in the wilderness entered into the promised land, so too did the faithful remnant Israel enter into the prophesied new covenant back in the first century.
We are not still waiting for remnant faithful Israel to enter into the New Covenant.

jerry kelso · Oct 16, 2015

parousia70 said:
Rather, Scripture concretely affirms that The "church" is a Jewish society and is the faithful jews, who exist all the way back at the time of Moses (Acts 7:38). Jesus tells the Jewish apostles at Matt 16:18-19 that Peter was commanding God's church in his day, even as Moses had done so in his generation (Acts 7:38). None of the apostles knew of gentile inclusion into the Church until years after Pentecost. The Church was the Nazarene sect of the Jews of first-century Israel who entered into Messiah's New Covenant, as had been prophesied to Israel.

The Church is indeed The Nazarene sect of Judaism, of whom Paul was "a ringleader" (Acts 24:5). The other sects (Sadducees, Zealots, Essenes, and Pharisees) who opposed the Nazarenes were cut off from among the people at AD 70, as St. Peter warned in Acts 3:22-24).

The Church is a Jewish entity of Israel which later began accepting converts from non-jewish corners of the world.

Can you show us this "church age" from scripture?
When, according to scripture did it begin?
Does it, according to scripture have an end?

How do you reconcile that with Hebrews 8:13?
The writer of Hebrews clearly states the old covenant was still in effect at that time, but growing old and ready to vanish.

Rather, Just like the Faithful remnant Church of Israel with Moses in the wilderness entered into the promised land, so too did the faithful remnant Israel enter into the prophesied new covenant back in the first century.
We are not still waiting for remnant faithful Israel to enter into the New Covenant.

parousia70,

1. Peter said he was a lively stone just like all other believers. We all build on the foundation of Christ, then the apostles and prophets because they were before and God used them to get started. Read 1 Corinthians 3.

2. The purpose of Jesus to say Peter was the rock is because that is what his name Petros meant. This was in response of saying Christ was the Son of God. God had revealed it to him.
Peter's main ministry was to the jewish part of the church. Paul was given the dispensation of Grace ministry to the gentiles after the jews rejected the message.
This is where Apostolic Succession of the Catholic Church goes to the extreme and out of context. This is why they feel they are the only true church and everyone else has to come into them, even though they try to make people think it is because they passed along the correct doctrine down from one pope to another etc.

3. Acts 7:38 was talking about the church in the wilderness in Moses day and how God would raise up unto the jew one of the jewish brethren for them to hear which would be the Messiah. This was not saying the church today was the same as the church in the wilderness. That church had a theocracy they were under and it was under the Mosaic law that was mandatory and had a specific blessing and cursing system of which the church today is not under.
We have jewish roots and can learn much from their theocracy and God's commandments and the why's which would be beneficial to understand how good God was to them and the better promises of the new covenant.
Paul said the church has no jew or gentile, no male or female, no slave or free man etc. This didn't mean there was no jew or gentile ethnicity or no man or woman or any slaves or those who were not slaves. It means all these companies are in the church but are all on the same playing ground.
The Jews in their covenant of Moses day were above the gentiles not in respect of persons but because they had the covenants and the oracles of God according to Romans and the gentiles had to come into Judaism back then and they had the same kind of mindset in the early church until Peter had the vision of the clean and unclean. You need to understand about gradual revelation and what was really going on back then.

4. What proof do you have that all the early church even like Peter was of the Nazarene sect? I understand in Acts 24:5; the judaizers called him a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes. Jesus was called the Nazarene because he was from the city of Nazareth.
Nazarenes took a strict vow involving different things but you are still drawing a conclusion. Even if that is true doesn't make the church today a nazarene sect anymore than spiritual Israel makes the church today physical Israel or do away with the covenants of the Nation of Israel or the nation itself.

5. Ephesians 1:4-5 speaks of new testament christian believers being chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world.
Israel was called out of Abraham who was a gentile and God said he would make of him a great nation Genesis 12:1-3. They were a called out physical nation in the old testament times. Christians are a called out people from the world. The jews have an earthly calling and the church is a heavenly calling.
The church will never end as a spiritual entity but will become a part of the bride with the old testament saints that had died and were in Christ when the Holy City comes down from heaven (Revelation 21:9).
The nation of Israel has different callings than the church. They both will reign in the kingdom on earth and that is why we are being trained right now (Revelation 5:10, 2 Timothy 2:12). Israel will be at the head of the nations Isaiah 2:2-4 and the church will have responsibilities in rulership positions in the kingdom but are never said to be at the head of the nations. The law will go out of Zion. Is there some reason you don't want Israel to be at the head of the nations?

6. Hebrews 8:13 has not been fulfilled for the nation of Israel because of being backslidden from their covenant. This is why it was vanishing away The new covenant had already made the first old in verse 13. Verse 7 backs up the first covenant was done away already which was at Calvary and the new covenant had taken its place. This is the context and has to be understood in this manner in order to get the proper perspective.

7. The faithful remnant of Israel did not enter the new covenant as I have already shown according to scripture and its proper context.
If it had already happened then there would be no reason for Paul to say the church is making them jealous so they can be grafted back into salvation. (Romans 11:11). Jerry kelso

jerry kelso · Oct 16, 2015

parousia70 said:
Rather, there were 483 years (the end of week 69 of the 70) from the decree to the Anointing of Messiah, which occurred at His Baptism by John, 3.5 years before His crucifixion. He was Crucified "in the middle" of week 70

Daniel prophesied in verse 25 that from the commandment to restore and rebuild Israel to the coming of the Messiah is 483 years. The question comes to "which decree is it?"

Here are the decrees:

The Decree of Cyrus - about 536 BC
* Ezra 1:2-4 Cyrus sends folks out to build the temple.
* The math: 536 - 483 = 53 BC.
* Guess what? No Messiah in 53BC.

The Decree of Artaxerxes - about 534 BC
* Ezra 4:17-22 Artaxerxes' decree here is actually to stop building and wait, not to start.
* Scratch that one.

Haggai and Zechariah Prophesy
* Ezra 5:1-3 Here Zerubbabel and Jeshua build, but no decree is mentioned.
* Scratch that.

Darius quotes Cyrus - about 520 BC
* Ezra 6:1-5 Darius simply quotes Cyrus, but in vv. 6-12, Darius sends out a decree.
* The math: 520 - 483 = 37 BC (some say 33BC...it's close enough I reckon).
* Maybe this was when Theudas popped up?
* Scratch this one, no Messiah.

Ezra 6:14
* "According to the commandment of God, of Cyrus, of Darius, and of Artaxerxes they builded and finished it."
* But look carefully at the decree above of Artaxerxes. His decree was to stop building and wait.
* So they couldn't have been talking about his decree.

Decree of Artaxerxes - 458 BC
* Ezra 7:12 - 26 Artaxerxes makes the decree.
* The math: 483-458 = 25, but there was no 0 AD nor 0 BC, so that makes 26 AD.
* What happened in 26 AD?

Mark 1:9 And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.

Mark 1:10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:

Messiah the Prince came and the Spirit, like a dove, descended upon Him. So began the ministry of Jesus Christ.
What is 483 + 7? 490 years. Simple.

Jesus' first coming and ministry on this earth, through to His death, burial and resurrection and subsequent 3.5 year ministry to the Jews exclusively by the apostles, fulfilled the 70th week of Daniel completely.

Why are 70 weeks determined? To do these things:
1. to finish the transgression
2. to make an end of sins
3. to make reconciliation for iniquity
4. to bring in everlasting righteousness
5. to seal up the vision and prophecy
6. to anoint the most Holy

1. Finish the Transgression.
Recall that to begin with, the Jews were in captivity for 490 years because of not honoring the Sabbath - they didn't give the land rest every seven years. The 70 years of capitivity in Babylon gave the land its rest. This is in 2 Chronicles 36- it's a whole lot of verses. Then God gives them another 490 years - maybe this time is their last chance.

2. Make an End of Sins.
Though we still sin, our sins no longer have power to prevent us from salvation. Jesus, by fulfilling the Law, ended sins strength. Sin is now utterly powerless.

3. Make Reconciliation for Iniquity.
Only Jesus could do this. He came to make reconciliation for us.

4. Bring in Everlasting Righteousness
Jesus Himself said that He fulfilled all righteousness.

5. Seal up the Vision and Prophecy
Contrary to what most teach about this passage, "seal up" doesn't mean to hide it from men's understanding until the last days. From Strong's, seal is [2856] chatham: meaning to close up, make an end of, stop. So Jesus made the end of this vision and prophecy. It doesn't say "all visions and prophecies" for you naysayers. It says "the vision..."

6. Anoint the Most Holy
Again, Jesus was anointed at His baptism in Mark 1. He is the Most Holy.

That's what I have done here.

You have a bizarre idea of who is Israel (you apparently count the disobedient sons of Abraham as Israel while discounting entirely the faithful sons of Abraham).

St. Paul said that when the nation was in mass apostasy, the TRUE Israel was carried on not through the lineages of the wicked sons but rather through the OBEDIENT FEW (called the "remnant"), such as was true in Isaiah's day (Romans 9:27-29) and Elijah's day (Romans 11:3-5).

Peter says the same thing at Acts 3:22-24, where it is clear that the wicked jews who refuse Christ were to be "cut off from among the People of Israel" while the faithful jews (John the Baptist, Joseph and Mary, the Twelve, the Seventy, the three thousand on Pentecost day, and many other jews) were the True Faithful Israel.

Just as the jewish church abode with Moses in the wilderness (Acts 7:37-38), so Jesus had HIS jewish church (Mt. 16:18-19). And within a few years after Pentecost, the faithful Israel learned how to start accepting both jewish and also gentile followers from all over the empire to convert into their Nation (1 Peter 2:9-10; Mt 21:40-45). And so the tiny remnant True Israel grew into a worldwide Judaism living under the promised NEW covenant of Israel's Messiah.

And so it was also in Moses' day, when the countless thousands of wicked sons of Abraham were slain in the wilderness while the faithful sons of Abraham survived and got to enter the Promised Land. We must NEVER count the continuation of Israel through the wicked sons but rather always through the faithful remnant!

Why would you insist that there are biblical Jews today who exist with no covenant, no known genealogies, no priesthood of Aaron, no Temple, and no observance of Torah as Moses commanded?!?!? Friend, you have fabricated for yourself a new definition of "Jew" that has nothing in common with the bible's understanding of "Jew." Covenants have everything to do with being a Jew, and yet you have some group today that you call Jews who have no covenant religion in the way that the REAL Jews of the bible did.

I hate to break the news to you, but Israel survived *exclusively* in the sect of the Nazarenes. They received with joy their promised New Covenant and obediently rejected all former biases against the non-Abrahamic families of earth so that Genesis 12:3 might finally be attained (Gal 3:7-9/Rom 4:13-18)---via the work of the Jewish Messiah. This sole surviving form of covenant Judaism is known worldwide today as Christianity, the Jewish church gone global. The church always was the covenanted Israel(Acts 7:37-38), the church continues to be the covenanted Israel. The only difference is that the NEW covenant of Israel enabled Jewish fullness to be bestowed upon gentile people groups (Gen 12:3).

parousia,

Sorry, but I didn't see this post.

1. We agree on 490 total years for Daniel's 70th week is 70 weeks of 7 years.

2. We the 69th week ended when Christ was cut off at Calvary.
We disagree about the last 7 years.

3. You say it was from the decree of the anointing of the Messiah which was 3.5 years before his crucifixion.
This cannot be because Daniel's 70th week is about the nation of Israel becoming the head of the nations and the law going out of Zion in the Day of the Lord. The Day of the Lord in the old testament was never about the Messiah and his earthly ministry because they rejected his message and then the church was born which is not the same as the physical kingdom. So you are wrong to start with and can never be right because you missed the big picture.
If you make anointing the most holy being the messiah and his ministry to his death you would have to have confirming the covenant with one week which involved the abomination of desolation would have to be at the same time of the Messiah's ministry. There was no abomination of desolation at the time of Christ death. So you are wrong again to the context.

4. Disobedient sons of Israel are not true Israel because they are not saved. This was the point of Paul's in Romans 2:28-29. A true jew is one with circumcision of the heart and not because they are merely God's chosen people. I never dismissed the faithful sons of Abraham.
You on the other hand want to do away with Israel's callings and their ethnicity is just because they are a jew by saying the only thing left is a spiritual person which is spiritualized to mean spiritual Israel that has a calling concerning the kingdom. That is not scriptural.

5. Acts 2:23-24 has nothing to with the time of the Day of the Lord as such as in Zechariah 13:9.

6. Acts 7:37, the jewish church in the wilderness is not the same church of today just because it had jews first. This jewish church is our roots but we live under a different covenant and were never under the old covenant and were given the lively oracles so gentiles would know the truth for the gentiles never had a covenant at all.

7. Jesus wasn't saying the church in Matthew 16 was a jewish church in their callings of rulership at the head of the nation in the kingdom.
Acts 15:5 a sect of the pharisees were trying to get the gentiles to be circumcised and keep the law of Moses. Peter said why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers or us were able to bear. The jews were practicing Judaism under the new covenant for the law was to be forever for the jew but not according to Moses, but to the new covenant standards and ethic, the spirit and not the letter. The law was wrapped up in their way of living culturally. All these laws even like the dietary laws were done in the light of attaining salvation. Even a gentile could do a dietary law but not as a means to attain salvation but because it is smart healthy wise.

8. When Peter had the vision of the clean and unclean Peter realized they were on the same plateau and that they didn't have to be proselyted into judaism.
1 Peter 2:9-10 is talking about new testament believer being a chosen generation, etc. for they were not the people of God. They were called out of darkness into his marvelous light not the nation of Israel. The new testament church being a chosen generation is new in existence from the old testament church. We are a royal priesthood which has nothing to do with judaism's levitical priesthood which was replace with the Melchisedec priesthood. We are a holy nation spiritually and not physically in the same sense as Israel being physical.

9. God has not forgotten the nation of Israel and their gifts and callings. Read Romans 9-11.
Israel is a nation today that is backslidden from God but will come back in the future. Jews are not in covenant with their callings and jewish believers in the early church and today were and are in the body of Christ.
You are the one with a new definition of jews as only being spiritual doing away with the nations promises that are conditioned by obedience.

10. I have already discussed that Israel the nation has achieved the new covenant (Hebrews 8:2-13).

11. Acts 7:37-38 says a prophet shall the Lord God raise up and the jews would hear and says nothing about the church today being covenanted Israel because there was not body of Christ at that time. You are making an assumption and drawing a wrong conclusion about a covenant for the physical nation that is only good when they are obedient. But the gifts and callings for the nation of Israel that is separate from the body of Christ which is the church today and their covenant of the earthly calling is sure and it is eternal. Because it is eternal it will be accomplish when they repent and obey. This is why their gifts and callings are without repentance meaning they are sure and will happen when they obey as a nation. Romans 11:29. Verse 25 plainly says that this will happen when the times of the gentiles comes in and that will not happen until the future tribulation. Verse 27; For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. This was not talking about the new testament church. The olive tree and the branches are the contrast of the jewish nation and the body of Christ who is to make them jealous so they will repent and obey and come back into covenant with God. You are spiritualizing scripture and that is your downfall. Jerry kelso

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