We were saved by God’s gift of grace thru faith not by works

ZacharyB

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“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves;
it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.” (Ephesians 2:8-9)


When we first come to Christ …
we receive the gift of salvation by God’s grace through our faith,
and not by any good works that we have done.
(Believers debate whether God must provide the necessary faith.)


Obviously, our past good works have nothing to do with our salvation!

But, what about the future lives of believers?
Do our future good works (or lack thereof) have any effect on our salvation?


When we first came to Christ, we received His righteousness.
But, our righteousness must be maintained through our good works.


“I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it (good deeds) to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me. And these (the unrighteous) will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
(Jesus, Matthew 25:45-46)


John follows Jesus:
“… you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.”
(1 John 2:29)
“… let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous”
(1 John 3:7)


Peter follows Jesus:
“… whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.” (Acts 10:35)
“… we, having died to sins, might live for (the practicing of) righteousness”
(1 Peter 2:24)


Paul follows Jesus:
“… (slaves) of obedience leading to righteousness” (Romans 6:16)
“... present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness” (Romans 6:19)
“But you, O man of God, flee these things (sins) and pursue righteousness”
(1 Timothy 6:11)
“Walk as children of light (for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness, and truth), finding out what is acceptable to the Lord.” (Ephesians 5:8-10)

James follows Jesus:
“… faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.” (James 2:17)

Do you follow Jesus?


A word about being an “overcomer”
Maintaining our righteous standing before God is part of being an “overcomer”.
The overcomer is compared to whoever chooses to be a habitual unrepentant sinner:
“He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be
My son. But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns
with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” (Revelation 21:7-8)
Jesus says: to overcome does not mean to just believe that Jesus is the Son of God.


“All Scriptureis profitable for … instruction in righteousness” (2 Timothy 3:16)
 
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nobdysfool

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I think what most object to here is the emphasis on works, as though they actually secure or maintain your salvation, apart from ongoing faith. Good works also must be defined. Not everything that people do as Christians qualifies. How many have we seen that have a zeal to "do something for Jesus", and make a complete mess of it?

Good works that are not sourced in the leading of the Holy Spirit will in the end be nothing but wood, hay, and stubble. In my understanding, Good works are evidence of salvation, not its cause. And being "busy for Jesus" can be a problem. Otherwise, you have the old joke of, "Jesus is coming! Everyone, look busy!"

Many opportunities are available for those who wish to act their faith and do good, and if you ask the Lord to open your eyes to those opportunities, He will.

I think that a lot of the emphasis on works comes off as forced and artificial, being done to be seen by men as doing them, rather than being a natural outgrowth and action of walking with Jesus daily.
 
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Jesus First

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“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves;
it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.” (Ephesians 2:8-9)


Obviously, our past good works have nothing to do with our salvation!

But, what about the future lives of believers?
Do our future good works (or lack thereof) have any effect on our salvation

I'll try to answer your question. Spiritual salvation is not presented as a completed action in the Bible. For example, "And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved." Acts 2:47b.

The verse you quoted above also demonstrates this truth (Eph. 2:8). The word "saved" is in the Koine Greek perfect tense. It describes a realized objective that was met in the past (salvation) that has remained true up to the present time "through faith".

Secondly, real repentance and faith will result in action. Real faith will produce works. These works don't save. You likely went to church last Sunday. This action was surely because of your faith in Jesus Christ.

In Christ!
 
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ZacharyB

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I'll try to answer your question. Spiritual salvation is not presented as a completed action in the Bible. For example, "And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved." Acts 2:47b.
The verse you quoted above also demonstrates this truth (Eph. 2:8). The word "saved" is in the Koine Greek perfect tense. It describes a realized objective that was met in the past (salvation) that has remained true up to the present time "through faith".
Secondly, real repentance and faith will result in action. Real faith will produce works. These works don't save. You likely went to church last Sunday. This action was surely because of your faith in Jesus Christ.
Yes, thanks for sharing.
First, I'd like to comment on your "being saved" ...
Perhaps, we should consider it as meaning people were being saved each day,
with nothing to do with an on-going process of anyone's salvation.
And, I would like to emphasize that perhaps the MOST important qualification
of making it through to one's final salvation unto eternal life is the fact that:
One MUST endure in his/her faith until death to receive eternal life.
Perhaps as many as 10 verses teach this!
IMO, this as the ultimate test as to who really "believes" Jesus and His gospel.
And please, do not be mistaken: we all have our belief/faith/trust tested.
 
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Jesus First

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Hi ZacharyB,

I fully concur with your reply.

The requirement to persevere in faith is clear from Scripture. The warnings expressed are to encourage us to stay in the race and keep our eyes on Jesus who is at the finish line. The ultimate aspect of glory will be the presence of Jesus Christ!
 
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ZacharyB

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The requirement to persevere in faith is clear from Scripture. The warnings expressed are to encourage us to stay in the race and keep our eyes on Jesus who is at the finish line. The ultimate aspect of glory will be the presence of Jesus Christ!
Is it NOT clear in Scripture, or do people just refuse to believe what they read?
Dat is the question.
And I am talking about 90% of people on Christian forums !!!

Hint: One thing is clear ...
Satan has some followers perched at the door of every Christian forum !!!
No problem for him because ...
Satan is "the god of this age" and "the ruler of this world".
 
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expos4ever

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“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves;
it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.” (Ephesians 2:8-9)
I have a take on these verses that I suspect all will reject.

Based on arguments provided by NT Wright, I believe that when Paul (or whoever wrote Ephesians) says "you are not saved by works" here, he is saying salvation is not for Jews only and is saying nothing (here at least) about any relation between good works and salvation.

I don't like making long posts if I can help it so, for the present, I will provide the following as an introduction to why I see things this way:

1. In Romans 2:6-7, Paul affirms that we are awarded eternal life according to, yes, what we have done;

2. There are other places in Paul where it is clear that Paul uses the phrases "works of the Law" to refer not to good works generally, but rather to those practices of the Law of Moses that mark the Jew out as distinct from the Gentile (Example: Romans 3:28-29);

3. The "therefore" paragraph beginning at verse 11 of Ephesians 2, and which clearly spells out the implications of what Paul has just said in verses 8 - 10, clearly focus on the inclusion of Gentiles into God's true family. This is precisely what one would expect if Paul is, in verse 8 and 9, using "works" as a cryptic way to allude to being Jewish (only Jews have the Law of Moses and only they can do its 'works').
 
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EmSw

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I have a take on these verses that I suspect all will reject.

Based on arguments provided by NT Wright, I believe that when Paul (or whoever wrote Ephesians) says "you are not saved by works" here, he is saying salvation is not for Jews only and is saying nothing (here at least) about any relation between good works and salvation.

I don't like making long posts if I can help it so, for the present, I will provide the following as an introduction to why I see things this way:

1. In Romans 2:6-7, Paul affirms that we are awarded eternal life according to, yes, what we have done;

2. There are other places in Paul where it is clear that Paul uses the phrases "works of the Law" to refer not to good works generally, but rather to those practices of the Law of Moses that mark the Jew out as distinct from the Gentile (Example: Romans 3:28-29);

3. The "therefore" paragraph beginning at verse 11 of Ephesians 2, and which clearly spells out the implications of what Paul has just said in verses 8 - 10, clearly focus on the inclusion of Gentiles into God's true family. This is precisely what one would expect if Paul is, in verse 8 and 9, using "works" as a cryptic way to allude to being Jewish (only Jews have the Law of Moses and only they can do its 'works').

You don't see many mentioning Romans 2 when it comes to eternal life.

Here are verses 6-8:

6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:
7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,


Eternal life is given according to your deeds, that is, those who by patient continuance in doing good.
Indignation and wrath is given to those who do not obey the truth, but unrighteousness.
 
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expos4ever

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You don't see many mentioning Romans 2 when it comes to eternal life.
I agree, and I am not sure how you see these verses. I take them as they are written, and although that appears to deny "salvation by faith", I think that contradiction is one in appearance only - Paul provides a way to harmonize these seemingly incompatible ideas.

Watch what people do with Romans 2:6-7. I politely suggest you will see some pretty interesting contortions undertaken to avoid the plain sense of what these two verses rather clearly (in my opinion, anyway) assert.
 
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ZacharyB

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Eternal life is given according to your deeds, that is, those who by patient continuance in doing good.
Indignation and wrath is given to those who do not obey the truth, but unrighteousness.
Yes, doing good, being obedient, etc. is practicing righteousness.
And (as a shock to me initially) it has been said:
this is what "born again" means!
It is a great change in one's nature to be able to do this.
 
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klutedavid

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Hello expos4ever.

An interesting statement that you made.
Watch what people do with Romans 2:6-7. I politely suggest you will see
some pretty interesting contortions undertaken to avoid the plain sense of what these
two verses rather clearly (in my opinion, anyway) assert.
Hope you do not mind if I ask you to explain the following two verses.

Romans 2
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the
Law will be justified.

Romans 3
20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through
the Law comes the knowledge of sin.
 
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EmSw

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Hello expos4ever.

An interesting statement that you made.

Hope you do not mind if I ask you to explain the following two verses.

Romans 2
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the
Law will be justified.

Romans 3
20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through
the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

I'll answer if you don't mind. The law isn't mentioned in Romans 2:6-8.
 
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klutedavid

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I'll answer if you don't mind. The law isn't mentioned in Romans 2:6-8.
Hello Ozspen.

So Paul is not really talking about the law in this text (Romans 2:6-8).

Your qouting verses from the text out of the context. Here read the actual context
that your passage (Romans 2:6-8) resides in.

Romans 2
6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance
in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who
are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and
indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil,
of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who
does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who
have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law
who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles
who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law,
are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts,
their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending
them.
 
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expos4ever

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Hope you do not mind if I ask you to explain the following two verses.

Romans 2
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the
Law will be justified.

Romans 3
20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through
the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Thanks for the questions.

First Text

11For there is no partiality with God. 12For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

It is clear that Paul is dealing with God’s impartial treatment of Jew and Gentile (verse 11).

It is clear that “those without the Law” in verse 12 are Gentiles, while those “under the Law” in verse 12 are Jews.

Now we have a situation where Paul has clearly both Jew and Gentile in mind and how God will treat them without partiality. So when he makes his statement in verse 13, he cannot simply be talking about Jews. No competent writer would build an argument as to how God will treat Jews and Gentile equally, and then entirely overlook Gentiles in his conclusion about who gets justified.

Note the connective “for” at the beginning of verses 12 and 13. As often with Paul, this functions as a “because”. Verses 12 and 13 are clearly elaborations of the statement of impartiality in verse 11.

In verse 12 Paul tells the dark side of the story – the Gentile who sins will perish and the Jew who sins will perish as well. Note: Although Paul does not specifically state that the Jew will perish, we must conclude that this is his point, otherwise he would not be explicating an impartial judgement.

In verse 13, we get the good news about who gets justified. Notice how it would make no sense at all for Paul to first declare that God is impartial, then say that both Jewish and Gentile sinners will be punished, and then make a statement about justification that only dealt with Jews. The entire structure of this mini-argument demands that any statement about justification also demonstrate the thesis of the argument - that God is impartial. Therefore, verse 13 has to be about both Jews and Gentiles being justified.

And this is entirely plausible, given how Paul says things here in chapter 2, as well as in Romans 3 and Romans 9 that entirely endorse the notion that there is “another law” (other than the written code) by which the Gentile (as well as the Jew, but that’s beside the point) can indeed be justified.

In short: Even though it may appear like I am stretching things, I believe a strong case can be made that the "law" in verse 13 is NOT the written code of the Law of Moses.

Second Text:

20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through
the Law comes the knowledge of sin.


I believe that in this text, the "Law" is indeed the Law of Moses.

SUMMARY: There is no conflict between these two verses. I am prepared to support my take on these two verses in more detail if need be - I suspect you will find my view about Romans 2:13 to be more controversial than my take on 3:20.

By the way, what do you think, especially in relation to 2:13?
 
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EmSw

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Hello Ozspen.

So Paul is not really talking about the law in this text (Romans 2:6-8).

Your qouting verses from the text out of the context. Here read the actual context
that your passage (Romans 2:6-8) resides in.

Romans 2
6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance
in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who
are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and
indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil,
of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who
does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who
have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law
who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles
who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law,
are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts,
their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending
them.

Who is Ozpen?

First, each and every person will be judged according to his deeds...period. It is according to his deeds that he will be given either, eternal life or wrath.

What did James say about the Law?

James 1
21 Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.
22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.
23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror;
24 for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was.
25 But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does.


James equates the word with the perfect law of liberty. James says to lay aside all filthiness and wickedness. Paul says those who do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness will receive wrath and indignation. If a man only hears the word or law is deceiving himself. If a man tells me not to obey the word, I have to assume he is trying to deceive me also.

We have another witness who tells us how to inherit eternal life.

Luke 10
25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

According to Jesus, how does a man inherit eternal life? What is written in the law? How do you read it? If you say love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, strength, and mind, and love your neighbor as yourself, you have answered right, DO THIS and will live.

I'm interested to see how many will dispute Jesus' own words.
 
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klutedavid

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Hello Expos4ever.

Do you think that Romans is the most difficult of all the letters in the New Testament
to understand? I rarely observe anyone who correctly interprets this letter.

I must commend you Expos4ever on your interpretation, which considers the context
of this letter.

You excelled with the following paragraph.
And this is entirely plausible, given how Paul says things here in chapter 2, as well
as in Romans 3 and Romans 9 that entirely endorse the notion that there is “another law”
(other than the written code) by which the Gentile can indeed be justified.
Of course Expos4ever, here is the supporting verse from the very same chapter.

Romans 2
29 Circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter.

The true Spiritual circumcision, brings forth the true Spiritual fruit, i.e., love.

This fruit of the Spirit, Love from the heart, fulfills the law absolutely.

Romans 13:8
Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor
has fulfilled the law.

Romans 7
6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we
were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
 
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expos4ever

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Hello Expos4ever.

Do you think that Romans is the most difficult of all the letters in the New Testament
to understand?
Yes.

I rarely observe anyone who correctly interprets this letter.
Thanks. Note, however, that my interpretation of Romans is shamelessly poached from theologian NT Wright.

I submit that one problem interpreting Paul is that we often do not recognize the subtlety and complexity of his argument.
 
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expos4ever

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What did James say about the Law?

James 1 1 Therefore....etc.
But to be clear, James does not, I believe, refer to the Law of Moses here.

We have another witness who tells us how to inherit eternal life.

Luke 10
25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

According to Jesus, how does a man inherit eternal life? What is written in the law? How do you read it? If you say love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, strength, and mind, and love your neighbor as yourself, you have answered right, DO THIS and will live.
This is where things get tricky. Yes, Jesus connects doing something prescribed by the Law of Moses with inheriting eternal life. And, as I think you know, I am not in the camp with those like FreeGrace2 who have to come up with with implausible arguments for not accepting Romans 2:6-7. So I do indeed believe, as you say: "First, each and every person will be judged according to his deeds...period. It is according to his deeds that he will be given either, eternal life or wrath."

But there is a huge problem with declaring that we need to obey the Law of Moses: Paul clearly states that it neither justifies nor saves and declares that it has been abolished. I am prepared to support all elements of this statement if need be.

So how do we make sense of all this? I suggest the following:

Paul's declaration that the Law of Moses does not justify or save is really a way of saying justification and salvation are not available only to Jews. Remember: the Law of Moses was given only to the Jews and Gentiles are simply not under it! So if it were indeed the case that obeying the Law of Moses justified (and saved), only Jews would benefit. I submit that when Paul says the Law of Moses does not justify (or save), he is really focusing in on its role as an ethnic delimiter. He is not saying we don't need to follow the moral guidelines in the Law to be justified/saved. People often get confused about this and they argue as follows:

1. The Law of Moses contains moral prescriptions (true, of course);
2. Therefore, to say that the Law of Moses does not justify (save) and yet to affirm that good works are needed for justification or salvation (this is a statement I would affirm) is incoherent since the Law of Moses contains instructions to do good works.

I understand this objection but it is, I suggest, misguided. Suppose someone believed that only Americans could be saved. And further, suppose it were the case that Americans boasted to the rest of the world that their law marked them out as a special people who were God's favourite and that no non-Americans can be saved. I trust you see where I am going. Someone who wanted to dispute this might say "You are not justified by doing the "works" of American law". In this context where adherence to American Law function as an identifier that says "I am an American", the statement "You are not justified by doing the "works" of American law" functions as a clear rejection of the claim that only Americans can be saved.

And now for the key point: Even though American law forbids murder, the person who claims "You are not justified by doing the "works" of American law" is certainly not saying that you can murder and still be justified.

Get it?

So, yes, we need to do "good works" to be justified and saved. And this is not undermined by a denial of the power of the Law of Moses to justify or save even though, of course, the Law of Moses does indeed prescribe good works.

Now: as we all know, in Romans 2:13, Paul declares that those who obey "the law" will be saved. Does this cause the preceding argument to fall apart? No, it does not, precisely because we know from right in here in Romans 2, and elsewhere, that Paul uses the term "law" sometimes to refer to something other than the Law of Moses. I can make the relevant case, if requested.
 
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EmSw

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But to be clear, James does not, I believe, refer to the Law of Moses here.


This is where things get tricky. Yes, Jesus connects doing something prescribed by the Law of Moses with inheriting eternal life. And, as I think you know, I am not in the camp with those like FreeGrace2 who have to come up with with implausible arguments for not accepting Romans 2:6-7. So I do indeed believe, as you say: "First, each and every person will be judged according to his deeds...period. It is according to his deeds that he will be given either, eternal life or wrath."

But there is a huge problem with declaring that we need to obey the Law of Moses: Paul clearly states that it neither justifies nor saves and declares that it has been abolished. I am prepared to support all elements of this statement if need be.

So how do we make sense of all this? I suggest the following:

Paul's declaration that the Law of Moses does not justify or save is really a way of saying justification and salvation are not available only to Jews. Remember: the Law of Moses was given only to the Jews and Gentiles are simply not under it! So if it were indeed the case that obeying the Law of Moses justified (and saved), only Jews would benefit. I submit that when Paul says the Law of Moses does not justify (or save), he is really focusing in on its role as an ethnic delimiter. He is not saying we don't need to follow the moral guidelines in the Law to be justified/saved. People often get confused about this and they argue as follows:

1. The Law of Moses contains moral prescriptions (true, of course);
2. Therefore, to say that the Law of Moses does not justify (save) and yet to affirm that good works are needed for justification or salvation (this is a statement I would affirm) is incoherent since the Law of Moses contains instructions to do good works.

I understand this objection but it is, I suggest, misguided. Suppose someone believed that only Americans could be saved. And further, suppose it were the case that Americans boasted to the rest of the world that their law marked them out as a special people who were God's favourite and that no non-Americans can be saved. I trust you see where I am going. Someone who wanted to dispute this might say "You are not justified by doing the "works" of American law". In this context where adherence to American Law function as an identifier that says "I am an American", the statement "You are not justified by doing the "works" of American law" functions as a clear rejection of the claim that only Americans can be saved.

And now for the key point: Even though American law forbids murder, the person who claims "You are not justified by doing the "works" of American law" is certainly not saying that you can murder and still be justified.

Get it?

So, yes, we need to do "good works" to be justified and saved. And this is not undermined by a denial of the power of the Law of Moses to justify or save even though, of course, the Law of Moses does indeed prescribe good works.

Now: as we all know, in Romans 2:13, Paul declares that those who obey "the law" will be saved. Does this cause the preceding argument to fall apart? No, it does not, precisely because we know from right in here in Romans 2, and elsewhere, that Paul uses the term "law" sometimes to refer to something other than the Law of Moses. I can make the relevant case, if requested.

All this is good, but you left off the following part of James -

James 1:25
But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does.
 
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