Why do people believe in a Rapture?

Riberra said:

Of course pretribbers have no problem seeing two coming of the Lord yet to come ...it is needed for their theory to work.



Which earthquake will cause the more destruction and death... obviously the total earthquake described in Revelation 16 at the END of the Tribulation when it is said that Jesus is coming as a thief Revelation 16:15, yet you argue that this will be the one described at the opening of the 6th seal at the beginning of the tribulation mentioned in Revelation 6..... Chessmate!!!

Note how the new Bible versions place Revelation 16:15 text betwen parenthesis because it does not fit with the pre-tribulation rapture theory .While that in KJV the verse is not placed betwen ( )

Click to expand...

Amazing! You miss the truth on EVERY POINT!

Pretribbers see two comings because THERE WILL BE TWO COMINGS.

I argue the TRUTH as written: there will be a worldwide earthquake that OPENS the Day of the Lord at the next coming - when Jesus comes FOR His saints. It will not be comparable to the last earthquake that ends the 70th week. That one will shake the mountains down into the earth, and they will disappear.

Finally, 16:15 IS written as a parenthesis. Anyone should be able to recognize that.

Postvieww said:

QUESTION POSED.

“How can there be a post trib rapture when the elects are gather from heaven? People go up in a rapture, they don't come down.”

ANSWER

This not an argument based on scripture, it is a human reasoning argument based on the false premise of the church being raptured to heaven prior to the tribulation. There is no rapture in scripture where the church goes up to where God dwells. There is scripture for those dead in Christ (their spirits) coming down with him.

1 Thess 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

The spirits of those dead in Christs do come down in the second coming to be united with their new bodies 1 Thesss 3:13 1 Thess 4: 14 Zech 14:5 Jude 14

Nothing in this verse says anyone goes back to heaven (where God dwells), that is a false premise with no scripture. Trump of God same trump as Matt.24:31 and 1 Corin 15:52

Matt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Both references to heaven in vs 29 refer to a cosmic event as set by the context of the verse. Sun darkened, moon not giving light. Stars fall from heaven also a cosmic event established by the context. “The powers of the heavens” refers to at least 2 of the 3 heavens, in the context of the verse still a cosmic event.

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and They shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Heaven in this verse is clearly the sky above our heads because “all the tribes of the earth” witness the event and they mourn. Since the tribes of the earth see the “sign of the Son of man” in the sky above our heads and they see “the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven” the second reference in this passage of the word heaven is also the sky above our heads.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

If “he” sends his angels to gather does he send them from earth back to heaven (where God dwells) or does “he” send them from heaven (where God dwells) to the earth to gather? Scripture backs up the latter.


Jer. 49: 36 And upon Elam will I bring the four winds from the four quarters of heaven, and will scatter them toward all those winds; and there shall be no nation whither the outcasts of Elam shall not come.

The events of this passage are on this earth.

Dan.7:2 Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.

The events in this passage are a vision about things to happen on this earth.

Dan 8:8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

The events of this passage are on the earth.

Zech 2: 6 Ho, ho, come forth, and flee from the land of the north, saith the Lord: for I have spread you abroad as the four winds of the heaven, saith the Lord.

The events of this passage are on the earth

In context none of the above verses refer to heaven where God dwells.

The question is built on a false primise as shown above.

Click to expand...

You missed a point. How convenient!

Rev. 19:
7 Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.”
8 And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.
9 Then he said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’” And he said to me, “These are the true sayings of God.”

These verses REQUIRE the bride of Christ to already be in heaven - where a pretrib rapture puts them. Of course your answer is, "if it don't fit, just move it to where it does." How convenient!

Next, if we compare the sister passage:

Mark 13:27
And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

Now we get the whole picture: this gathering at the end of the trib is a gathering from both earth and heaven, that is the heaven when God lives.

This gathering simply does not fit Paul's rapture gathering. Paul's gathering comes as the trigger for the Day of the Lord. In other words, it comes BEFORE the Day and is what begins the DAY.

Postvieww said:

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Click to expand...

This is truly an amazing coincidence that you and BABerean2 quoted and bolded the same verses and words.

Hey if you say you and him are not the same person, who's to deny that right? I mean lightning always strikes at the same spot, am I right?

The below quote of BABerean2 was taken from your thread....oops! I meant his thread. Post #122.
http://www.christianforums.com/thre...able-left-behind-or-led-astray.7901923/page-7

BABerean2 said:

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Click to expand...

.

Psalm3704 said:

Revelation 6:2 NKJV
And I looked, and behold, a white horse. He who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.​

The bow in Rev 6:2 is not a weapon, it's referring to a prostrate position, as in an act of submission. Like bowing to your superiors. Before the antichrist reign over the earth for 3.5 years, he comes in by peace and flattery. He establishes a peace treaty with Israel. He will deceive many by stopping the conflict in the Middle East between muslims (Sunnis vs Shiites) nations during the first half of the tribulation.

Then he will be given a crown (and a crown was given to him) as their Madhi.

Then he unites all muslims (and he went out conquering and to conquer) to fight together and invade Jerusalem at the middle of the tribulation.

Daniel 11:32 (ESV) He shall seduce with flattery those who violate the covenant, but the people who know their God shall stand firm and take action.​

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bow
Definition of BOW
intransitive verb
1
: to cease from competition or resistance : submit, yield <refusing to bow to the inevitable — John O'Hara>; also : to suffer defeat <bowed to the champion>
2
: to bend the head, body, or knee in reverence, submission, or shame
3
: to incline the head or body in salutation or assent or to acknowledge applause
4
: debut <the play will bow next month>
transitive verb
1
: to cause to incline
2
: to incline (as the head) especially in respect or submission
3
: to crush with a heavy burden
4
a : to express by bowing

b : to usher in or out with a bow


Revelation 6:2 (KJV) And I saw , and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering , and to conquer .
​

Also a good majority of all english translations uses the word "had" a bow, over "held" a bow.

Now if the bow is an actual weapon, the question we be asking is "if he actually had a bow, what happened to the bow?"

Oh brother. I just realized the KJV called the horse a him. The only reason why I showed Revelation 6:2 in the KJV also is because most people uses that version over all others. How do they know it's a male horse? Ahh, anyone for unicorns?

Click to expand...

This is complete nonsense, completely IGNORING the Greek word this is translated from: TOXON.
From this Greek word we get our English word, TOXIC as in poison.

We must keep in mind, this white horse are rider may only be to REPRESENT something. It is to represent the CHURCh sent out to make disciples of all nations. Our weapons are SPIRITUAL.

By the way, you are almost 2000 years OFF in your above scenario.

Psalm3704 said:

This is truly an amazing coincidence that you and BABerean2 quoted and bolded the same verses and words.

Hey if you say you and him are not the same person, who's to deny that right? I mean lightning always strikes at the same spot, am I right?

The below quote of BABerean2 was taken from your thread....oops! I meant his thread. Post #122.
http://www.christianforums.com/thre...able-left-behind-or-led-astray.7901923/page-7

.

Click to expand...

Copy and paste experts!

iamlamad said:

This is complete nonsense, completely IGNORING the Greek word this is translated from: TOXON.
From this Greek word we get our English word, TOXIC as in poison.

We must keep in mind, this white horse are rider may only be to REPRESENT something. It is to represent the CHURCh sent out to make disciples of all nations. Our weapons are SPIRITUAL.

Click to expand...

Copy and paste experts!








.

Postvieww said:

ANSWER

This not an argument based on scripture, it is a human reasoning argument based on the false premise of the church being raptured to heaven prior to the tribulation. There is no rapture in scripture where the church goes up to where God dwells. There is scripture for those dead in Christ (their spirits) coming down with him.

1 Thess 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

The spirits of those dead in Christs do come down in the second coming to be united with their new bodies 1 Thesss 3:13 1 Thess 4: 14 Zech 14:5 Jude 14

Nothing in this verse says anyone goes back to heaven (where God dwells), that is a false premise with no scripture. Trump of God same trump as Matt.24:31 and 1 Corin 15:52

Matt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Both references to heaven in vs 29 refer to a cosmic event as set by the context of the verse. Sun darkened, moon not giving light. Stars fall from heaven also a cosmic event established by the context. “The powers of the heavens” refers to at least 2 of the 3 heavens, in the context of the verse still a cosmic event.

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Heaven in this verse is clearly the sky above our heads because “all the tribes of the earth” witness the event and they mourn. Since the tribes of the earth see the “sign of the Son of man” in the sky above our heads and they see “the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven” the second reference in this passage of the word heaven is also the sky above our heads.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

If “he” sends his angels to gather does he send them from earth back to heaven (where God dwells) or does “he” send them from heaven (where God dwells) to the earth to gather? Scripture backs up the latter.

Jer. 49: 36 And upon Elam will I bring the four winds from the four quarters of heaven, and will scatter them toward all those winds; and there shall be no nation whither the outcasts of Elam shall not come.

The events of this passage are on this earth.

Dan.7:2 Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.

The events in this passage are a vision about things to happen on this earth.

Dan 8:8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

The events of this passage are on the earth.

Zech 2: 6 Ho, ho, come forth, and flee from the land of the north, saith the Lord: for I have spread you abroad as the four winds of the heaven, saith the Lord.

The events of this passage are on the earth

In context none of the above verses refer to heaven where God dwells.

The question is built on a false primise as shown above.

Click to expand...

So how does all this refute the fact that Christ sends His angels to gather His elects from heaven in Matthew 24:31?

Remember, in a rapture, people go up, they don't come down.

Remember, in the rapture: 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, Christ comes for the church, His angels doesn't come for the church.


In Matthew 24:31, Christ doesn't gather the elects. It's the angels that gathers the elects.

Bible2+ said:

-
Regarding Ezekiel chapters 40 to 48, note that they aren't necessarily a prophecy of future events which must happen, like those in Revelation must happen (Revelation 1:1), but could have been a conditional vision which Israel had to fulfill while it was still in Old Testament/Old Covenant times (Ezekiel 43:11). For the vision refers to animal sacrifices for sin (e.g. Ezekiel 43:21-22), which were forever abolished by Jesus on the Cross, along with all the rest of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Hebrews 7:18-19, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18). Jesus' New Covenant sacrifice for sin (Matthew 26:28) completely and forever replaced all the Old Covenant animal sacrifices for sin (Hebrews 10:1-23).

Click to expand...

Eze 44:1 Then he brought me back the way of the gate of the outward sanctuary which looketh toward the east; and it was shut.

2 Then said the LORD unto me; This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall enter in by it; because the LORD, the God of Israel, hath entered in by it, therefore it shall be shut.

3 It is for the prince;

Zec 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

Eze 46:1 Thus saith the Lord GOD; The gate of the inner court that looketh toward the east shall be shut the six working days; but on the sabbath it shall be opened, and in the day of the new moon it shall be opened.

2 And the prince shall enter by the way of the porch of that gate without, and shall stand by the post of the gate, and the priests shall prepare his burnt offering and his peace offerings, and he shall worship at the threshold of the gate: then he shall go forth; but the gate shall not be shut until the evening.

3 Likewise the people of the land shall worship at the door of this gate before the LORD in the sabbaths and in the new moons.

You know why the "East gate" is walled up????

If Ezekiel chapters 40 to 48 are a prophecy of future events, and weren't only a conditional vision which now will never be fulfilled, the sabbath and feasts (e.g. Ezekiel 46:4,9) won't be those of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, but a better version of them, under the New Covenant.

The rules in Ezekiel chapters 40 to 48 are different in detail from the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. For example, note all the differences in the details of the passover animal sacrifice requirements of Ezekiel 45:21-25 and those of Numbers 28:16-24.

Click to expand...

It sure wasn't a Walt Disney preview of coming attractions.

As long as people are "in the flesh/body of sin", they are going to sin, flesh is an enemy of God.

Actually, it can be lost. For note that the Bible doesn't teach once-saved-always-saved, but shows that initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only "if" they continue in the faith to the end (Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Colossians 1:23).

Click to expand...

Law is one thing I find few people understand, and the Bible is a book of law.
Lawyer have a saying, "What's right is not always law, What's law is not always right",
It help to explain the confusion most people encounter with understanding the law.

The wages of sin is "Forgiveness", or how about "Repenting", what does the scripture say???

Ro 6:23 For the wages of sin is death;
Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.(of sin)

Mt 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

OK, you were saved, then you committed another sin, one that caused you to lose your salvation because in paying for your first sins Jesus didn't pay for that sin because it had not been committed at the time.

If the law required Jesus dying the first time to save you from sin, why wouldn't the law require Jesus to die a second time for these "other sins"???

If God forgives one sin without a death, without the shedding of blood, God violates his own law, and makes Jesus's death/suffering on the cross, "Worthless".

Le 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

Ro 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed,

How are you going to understand the differences between the church's "Living sacrifice of the Body of sin", and those "Dead sacrifices of the body of sin" in the trib,

when you don't understand how the plan of salvation works????

Also, even if they do continue in the faith, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they also patiently continue to the end in obedience and good works

Click to expand...

Works can't save, God Foreknows what you're going to do your whole life, and God does not "Abort" his "Born again" children.

Regarding "five virgins/servant", note that the 10-virgins parable (Matthew 25:1-13) shows that the marriage of the church to Jesus won't occur until his 2nd coming (Matthew 25:10), which Jesus had just finished saying won't occur until "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), just like Revelation 19:7 shows that the marriage won't occur until after the (never fulfilled) tribulation, shown in Revelation chapters 6 to 18.

Click to expand...

After the trib both church and Israel are at the Cana marriage to start the MK.

but you leave this "other wedding" that Israel refused the invitation, when/where does it occur???

Mt 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
Mt 22:8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
Mt 22:10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

Mt 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

You, and some others, are doing exactly what I've been saying, you try to construct a theory but leave out so many other things in scripture your theory has huge holes everywhere in which the other things left out won't fit.

You're trying to work a puzzle but without all the pieces.

The marriage supper (Revelation 19:9) won't have yet begun by the time of Revelation 19, which won't begin until after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (cf. Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). For regarding the church, the marriage supper will be a literal feast in the earthly Jerusalem after the resurrection and marriage of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54). While the church will enjoy a feast "of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined" (Isaiah 25:6), the birds will feast on the corpses of the world's armies defeated by Jesus' at his 2nd coming (Revelation 19:17-21).

Click to expand...

The Son marriage in Heaven is why there is a "Pre trib rapture", the covenant "Confirmed" with "MANY" for "one week".
The Cana marriage celebration is with "ALL".

Also, regarding the 10-virgins parable, in Matthew 25:6 "midnight" could represent mid-tribulation,

Click to expand...

If it's midtrib, then the confirmation of the covenant couldn't be for "one week", but only a half week.
Another one of you "holes".

Regarding the devil being allowed to have physical power over some people in the church, imagine Revelation 2:10.

Click to expand...

Re 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

2Th 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

Are you saying the tribulations the church suffer today is no different than the tribulation period???

If so, why does scripture say the trib is a time such as never been before or ever will be again???

You have no idea of just how bad the trib will be, maybe that's why you think the "body of Christ" will still be here.

iamlamad said:

This is complete nonsense, completely IGNORING the Greek word this is translated from: TOXON.
From this Greek word we get our English word, TOXIC as in poison.

Click to expand...

That's funny. Google translator has the greek word TOXON meaning BOW in English.

https://translate.google.com/#el/en/toxon









.

Short Timer said:

Why did God want Jesus killed???

You don't understand the plan of salvation, especially the part about killing the flesh or "Body of sin".



Yes, but the fact is, all won't be ready, especially Israel, and they will die in order to be saved, both Satan and God saying they "should be killed".

Re 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Re 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.




Where is this "Man of peace" who make a treaty with Israel/her enemies, where is the rebuild temple/sacrifices, all of these occur right after the first seal is opened???

Your time line don't line up with scripture.

That right, but you don't have an AC, or a trib, until after he is taken out of the way, you're trying to deny the first half of the trib even exist.

and the Two days (two thousand years) Israel would be blinded until the fulness of the gentiles or rapture, and then the AC revealed.

http://i18.tinypic.com/66c6f51.jpg



All you're doing is trying to explain what happen, not "WHY", and if you don't know the why, then you don't understand what is happening.

Click to expand...

All you are doing is spouting more of the same things you write continually. And by the way, I have told you WHY. Chapters 4 & 5 are there as the CONTEXT of the first seals.....a point which you ignore complete.

Did it EVER occur to you that no one will know who the Beast is until the day He enters the temple and declares he is God? Is not that exactly what Paul teaches us? AS he is taking down the three kings, he may remain a hidden entity.

And I don't ignore the first half. Did you not notice that in the olivet discourse, Jesus skips totally over the first half of the week? He jumps from "the end is not yet" to the abomination. Why is that? Why does John not make it real clear that the Beast will take down three kings? The first half of the week is "clearly marked" in Revelation by 7's. Of course you don't believe that, but it is not my words, GOD SPOKE them to me. The week begins at the 7th seal, and the midpoint is marked by the 7th trumpet.

Your time line don't line up with scripture.

Of course it does - it comes straight FROM the scriptures. It does not like up with your preconceptions.

Where is this "Man of peace" who make a treaty with Israel/her enemies, where is the rebuild temple/sacrifices, all of these occur right after the first seal is opened???
You live in a dream world. The first seal was broken in 32 AD and is to represent the CHURCH. WAKE UP! John does not get to WRATH, which follows immediately after the rapture, until the 6th seal. Your timeline is nuts. The seals cover the ENTIRE CHURCH AGE: 2000 years. Look, you KNOW we must be pulled out before wrath....but it will be JUST before, as in a split second before. So FIND THE FIRST MENTION of wrath and you will be very close to the rapture. Read and understand 1 Thes. 5 and you will see that Paul's sudden destruction, which comes a millisecond after the dead in Christ are risen, IS INDEED the very earthquake of the 6th seal.

If you will notice in 1 Thes. 5, Paul mentions "The day of the Lord," and the fact that we have no appointment with His wrath. In that text, "wrath" and "day of the Lord" are the very same thing. In fact, the "sudden destruction" is a worldwide earthquake which will be caused by the dead in Christ rising around the world. Study Matthew 27: "The earth did quake...and the graves were opened."

So Paul teaches us that WRATH comes INSTANTLY after the rapture in the form of a great earthquake "sudden destruction." All this is at the 6th seal, NOT THE FIRST SEAL.

Go back and study: John saw the very moment Jesus ascended into the throne room PINPOINTING the time as 32 AD. Why then you you want to put the first seal 2000 years into the future from where John put it?

If you understand the 5th seal as CHURCH AGE martyrs, which indeed they are, and understand the answer given to them, they are told to wait until the rapture ENDS the church age and THEN judgment comes.

I guess you have figured out, John did not see a new temple built so did not write about it. However, you and I KNOW it will be built, either just before the week begins or soon after. What you need to understand is when the Week starts in Revelation. You should know that the midpoint is at the 7th trumpet, for the fleeing into the wilderness comes a second later at 12:6. That proves that the trumpet judgments come in the first half of the week. So in your theory, you will cram the seals in with the trumpets - all in 3 1/2 years. But you also have to include "wars and rumors of wars," earthquakes and pestilences - all in 3 1/2 years. This is not at all the intent of the author! ONLY THE TRUMPETS will be in the first half. the man of sin will certianly take down 3 kings, but perhaps before the week or perhaps during the trumpet judgments.

"should be killed".

You are completely mixing up time! Yes, martyrs of the church age are surely killed, but it is not God's wrath, it is Satan's doing. Surely you remember that "the thief comes ONLY to Kill, steal and destroy." The "should be killed" in Rev. 13 is FAR LATER during the days of great tribulation that come in the last half of the 70th week. They too will be martyrs, but NOT CHURCH AGE martyrs. They will be 70th week martyrs. Don't mix them up! The martyrs of the church age will be raised back to life at the pretrib rapture, while those beheaded by the Beast will not be raised until the 7th vial ends the Week.

You don't understand the plan of salvation, especially the part about killing the flesh or "Body of sin".

This is laughable! I have spent over 60 years putting to death my flesh! Most Christians never begin. Sorry to say but most of the misunderstanding is on YOUR part.

By the way, OSAS is MYTH. But that is for another thread. We come in by our OWN WILL, and we can leave the same way. I will admit, it is VERY DIFFICULT and most Christians could not figure out how, but a very mature Christian can certainly lose their Salvation. Here is just ONE WAY a Christian can end up in hell: all they have to do is DIE with unforgiveness against another believer. All they have to do is DIE as an unrepentant thief.

Psalm3704 said:

That's funny. Google translator has the greek word TOXON meaning BOW in English.

https://translate.google.com/#el/en/toxon .

Click to expand...

Exactly! The translators did a fair job with this.

iamlamad said:

Copy and paste experts!

Click to expand...

You guys are half right. I did copy and paste my own post from another thread. Try answering the points raised

iamlamad said:

Your "Day of the Lord" is a MYTH.

Click to expand...

The Day of the Lord is when Jesus Christ physically returns with His saints to Gather His people at the Resurrection/Rapture.

This is called the Coming [Parousia] of the Lord.

1 Behold, the day of the Lord is coming, And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; The city shall be taken, The houses rifled, And the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then the Lord will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle.
4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south.
5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You.
6 It shall come to pass in that day That there will be no light; The lights will diminish. Zechariah 14:1-6

This is what Jesus taught His disciples privately in the Olivet Discourse.


24 "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light;
25 the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken.
26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven. Mark 13:24-27

All His people will be Gathered together to meet the Lord in the air and forever to be with Him.


16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you.
2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-5:2


Please don't try and teach from the book of Revelation before you have a solid foundation of truth from the words of the Lord Jesus and His Apostles and Prophets.


JLB

iamlamad said:

Exactly! The translators did a fair job with this.

Click to expand...

o

Ancient Greek texts use the same word Toxon for the rainbow God placed in the sky after the flood. I don't think the rainbow is a weapon though.

Actually..the word Toxon being used makes me see the rider more as the church..
OT rainbow
NT gospel
Peace with God..yes I see it now. The rider is the church.

kingskid said:

Actually..the word Toxon being used makes me see the rider more as the church..
OT rainbow
NT gospel
Peace with God..yes I see it now. The rider is the church.

Click to expand...

Do you also notice that John used the color white 17 other times in Revelation, and every time to represent Righteousness?

Do you also note that chapters 4 & 5 pinpoint the timing of the first seal to about 32 AD? Do you also notice that there is not one hint in the description or context that should lead anyone to believe anything evil?

Did you notice that this is the ONLY time "toxon" is used in the New Testament? We can't look up other passage to compare. I think therefore that we can look at the root word, "tiktō" (G5088) and look up its meaning also.

1. 
   
   
   • to bring forth, bear, produce (fruit from the seed)
     1. of a woman giving birth
        
        
     2. of the earth bringing forth its fruits
        
        
     3. metaph. to bear, bring forth

I have no idea how Mr. Strong came up with his definition. It seems he pulled it right out of a hat:

"τόξον tóxon, tox'-on; from the base of G5088; a bow (apparently as the simplest fabric):—bow."

I am CONVINCED the first seal is to represent the CHURCH sent out to make disciples of all nations. It could also be the GOSPEL of the Lord Jesus Christ, which makes disciples of all who believe.

I am further convinced that the next three seals are to represent the feeble attempts of the devil to stop the church. He has used war, famines, pestilences and anything else he can to bring fear into those advancing the gospel. These three riders ride together, while the white horse rider rides alone.

JLB777 said:

The Day of the Lord is when Jesus Christ physically returns with His saints to Gather His people at the Resurrection/Rapture.

This is called the Coming [Parousia] of the Lord.

1 Behold, the day of the Lord is coming, And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; The city shall be taken, The houses rifled, And the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then the Lord will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle.
4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south.
5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You.
6 It shall come to pass in that day That there will be no light; The lights will diminish. Zechariah 14:1-6

This is what Jesus taught His disciples privately in the Olivet Discourse.


24 "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light;
25 the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken.
26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven. Mark 13:24-27

All His people will be Gathered together to meet the Lord in the air and forever to be with Him.


16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you.
2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-5:2


Please don't try and teach from the book of Revelation before you have a solid foundation of truth from the words of the Lord Jesus and His Apostles and Prophets.


JLB

Click to expand...

The Day of the Lord is when Jesus Christ physically returns with His saints to Gather His people at the Resurrection/Rapture. This is called the Coming [Parousia] of the Lord.

Brilliant observation! But this is NOT the coming of Rev. 19. There is no war. God has not yet gathered the nations. If you wish to add a sister scripture, this one is FAR closer:

John 14:
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

We all know that Jesus went back to heaven to be at the right hand of the Father. This verse tells us He also went to the same place to prepare homes for us. It is the perfect picture of a Jewish wedding of Jesus' day. The groom would go and prepare or build a house for them to live in. when it was finished, he would go and get his wife, and take her to the place he had prepared. Posttrib theory would have Jesus go to heaven and prepare, but they forget to take the Bride to her home.

In fact, Posttrib theory is more like a husband telling his bride:

This is posttrib theory, folks, in a nutshell! Pretrib, on the other hand has Jesus coming to get us BEFORE His wrath, and taking us to the homes He has prepared. Then, and ONLY then, will He pour out His wrath on the earth, and shown beginning at the 6th seal and continuing on through the 7 trumpets and 7 vials.

1 Behold, the day of the Lord is coming, And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; The city shall be taken, The houses rifled, And the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity,

This passage is Jesus coming on the white horse, some 7 plus years AFTER His coming FOR His bride.

27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

Quite likely this will be Jesus gathering all the descendants of Jacob. It is for sure NOT Paul's gathering which will come 7 years previous as the TRIGGER for the DAY.

By the way, Revelation is just as much the words of Jesus as are recorded in the gospels. Your theory of the end times does not fit Revelation.

kingskid said:

o

Ancient Greek texts use the same word Toxon for the rainbow God placed in the sky after the flood. I don't think the rainbow is a weapon though.

Click to expand...

How did you find this? Did you search the Greek Septuagint?

Psalm3704 said:

Copy and paste experts!

.

Click to expand...

What did I copy and paste?

iamlamad said:

How did you find this? Did you search the Greek Septuagint?

Click to expand...

No I just did a whole bunch of web searches and found a commentary on the rainbow. The Lord knows I'm not smart enough to read ancient Greek.