Why do people believe in a Rapture?

kingskid said:

Well the main reason I am wondering is the rider has a "bow" but no arrow. The first reference to bow in the OT was the rainbow covenant. What makes people sure this bow the white rider is carrying is a weapon? Couldn't it be some sort of covenant instead?

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The first seal is the white horse,
the fourth seal is a pale horse.

A few questions for some of my pretrib brothers. I’ve noticed some who support pre-trib doctrine, some on this thread and others on similar threads express the theory that those who do not believe in the pretrib doctrine may just be left behind when and if this actually occurs. Others say only the more spiritual or the more holy members of the church will go in the rapture. The purpose of this question is to provoke thought and bring clarity to this issue. 1. For those who believe this, are you saying those who fall in this category are saved and will ultimately receive their eternal reward even though they missed the rapture, or they are not born again at all? 2. If there is to be this separation at the presumed pre-trib rapture where is this separation made at the death of a believer before that time? 3. Will the spirits of those that would not be found worthy for the rapture go to heaven at death to be with the Lord? 4. If they are worthy for heaven at death but would not have made the rapture will they be left in heaven when Christ returns with the spirits of those more worthy to receive their resurrection bodies? Some of this thinking causes theological problems. My thoughts on this are, one is saved or they are not. Some will receive more rewards than others but there are not degrees of salvation, you are in or out. I personally believe what one’s position as to the timing of the coming of the Lord has no bearing on salvation. Sometimes statements are made in the heat of debate by both sides that are not thought out to their logical conclusion.

iamlamad said:

To Old Timer:

A search was made to find one worthy to break these seals. The search was made in heaven, on earth and under the earth. Notice carefully that this search ENDED IN FAILURE because "NO MAN WAS FOUND."

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No man was found because all men have sinned, dying for sin required someone who had no sin, that only leaves "God" to fulfill the requirement of the Law.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,

Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

This passage gives us the idea that this search had been ongoing for centuries.

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Nope, John was simply saying that "No man" could be a savior, only "God in the flesh" could save.

Of course many don't believe Jesus was "GOD", in the flesh.

Do you know the answer? Can you even guess the answer?

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Just did.

Postvieww said:

A few questions for some of my pretrib brothers. I’ve noticed some who support pre-trib doctrine, some on this thread and others on similar threads express the theory that those who do not believe in the pretrib doctrine may just be left behind when and if this actually occurs. Others say only the more spiritual or the more holy members of the church will go in the rapture. The purpose of this question is to provoke thought and bring clarity to this issue. 1. For those who believe this, are you saying those who fall in this category are saved and will ultimately receive their eternal reward even though they missed the rapture, or they are not born again at all? 2. If there is to be this separation at the presumed pre-trib rapture where is this separation made at the death of a believer before that time? 3. Will the spirits of those that would not be found worthy for the rapture go to heaven at death to be with the Lord? 4. If they are worthy for heaven at death but would not have made the rapture will they be left in heaven when Christ returns with the spirits of those more worthy to receive their resurrection bodies? Some of this thinking causes theological problems. My thoughts on this are, one is saved or they are not. Some will receive more rewards than others but there are not degrees of salvation, you are in or out. I personally believe what one’s position as to the timing of the coming of the Lord has no bearing on salvation. Sometimes statements are made in the heat of debate by both sides that are not thought out to their logical conclusion.

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God only chastise "his own", the trib is God chastising Israel using the AC as a "Rod",
ya mommy ever whip you with a switch (small tree branch) or belt, God said chastisement was because of "Love" for the person.

Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

2Sa 7:14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:

Isa 10:5 O Assyrian, (AC) the rod of mine anger, and the staff (power/authority) in their hand is mine indignation.

Pr 22:15 Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.
Pr 23:13 Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.
Pr 23:14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.
Pr 13:24 He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.

People not accounted worthy to escape chastisement will enter the trib right along with Israel, (five virgins/servant) and have their "Flesh" (body of sin) turned over to satan for it's (flesh) destruction, but the soul is still saved.

Re 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
Re 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.


People who die prior to the rapture, but wouldn't really be worthy to be rapture, will still go to heaven, they'll lose some rewards, but works don't save.

Once saved/always saved, is true, even if you get so far away from God you forget that you were saved.

2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

We all sin after being saved, so to prevent the sins from condemning us, the spirit "Seals" the soul against sin,
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Or you can say God won't impute sin to us.
Ro 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

The rapture will mark the start of a time such as never been before or even will be again, those who have been faithful and not deserving of Chastisement (accounted worthy) will escape the trib in the only place they can be safe from the AC, in heaven, because everything on earth is going to be under his authority.

Re 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea!

for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

The church represent Jesus, or the "Body of Christ", now imagine the devil having power/authority over "Jesus" and his "Holy Ghost",

If you don't believe in a pre trib rapture, then you have to believe the devil will have power/authority over Jesus/HG.

iamlamad said:

It is just today's "label" for the resurrection/rapture. In fact, both the dead in Christ and those alive in Christ are "caught up" to be with HIM in the air. However, God will first resurrect those that are dead, and change those who are alive. Today this entire process is called "the rapture."

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By rapture you mean that the whole event will happen before the tribulation not unto the coming of the Lord, as mentioned in the epistle to Thess. is that right ?

Short Timer said:

Yes it is God's wrath that causes people to be killed, but it's wrath against the flesh, not the soul.

Why do you think people are saved during the trib but "no flesh" would survive "except".
You need to understand why the flesh is turned over to satan for it's destruction that the soul may be saved.

Is it God's wrath that get the two witnesses killed. Dead meat is dead meat, doesn't matter what reason you die.

That quite easy, from the opening of the first seal until Jesus returns is seven years.
Has he returned????

Jesus was born/crucified in the evening of the four days, that leave the 5th,6th, and 7th day to the MK.

Do you know why Israel has been blinded for "Two days" (1000 years days) but will be revived in the "Third day" (7th/MK)

Ho 6:2 After two days (5th,6th) will he revive us: in the third day (7th/MK) he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

Jesus and the church are going to be "Resurrected in three days", (1000 years days) because that is start of the 7th day or MK.

Like I said, Prophecy has a dual application, to cover both coming of Jesus, and it's one of the many ways the church "conforms to Jesus image".




You're right, as long as the church is here, the end is not yet, now after the rapture, not only does the devil know he has a short time, so will anyone familiar with the scripture.



Like these others, all you're doing is showing what happen, not "WHY" it happens.

You can't, or haven't so far, explained "WHY" there is a difference in the church period and the trib period.

What is there about the church that prevents the Jews from "Seeing" and the devil from having power over all kindred, tongue and nation, and from prevailing over the church???

And what is this "Fulness of the Gentiles" and who is this "HE" that must be "taken out of the way" before the AC can even be revealed, and where does this "HE" go????

If a person doesn't "Know" how things changed from the OT ways to the church way, then they sure wouldn't recognize the change from the church back to the OT way during the trib,

and the only way not to know is not to be that knowledgeable of scripture.

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If you think the God we serve kills His own, then you are past any help at all. I mean, why rapture us at all if He wants to kill us? Your answers are insane! It is the hatred of the BEAST that kills the two witnesses.

It is NOT GOD'S WILL that ANY of His own suffer through the days of His wrath. That is why HIS WILL is all of us pray to be found worthy to escape. Surely you have read Luke 21:36. His will is that all of His will be READY for the pretrib rapture.

That quite easy, from the opening of the first seal until Jesus returns is seven years.
Fine, it is a theory based on NOTHING. So us some kind of scriptural PROOF for this? Of course you CAN'T for there is none - because it is FALACY! MYTH! The first seal was broken around 32 AD to represent the CHURCH. The BEGINNING of the 70th week is the 7th seal. You are only 6 seals and almost 2000 years off!

I show you WHY and WHEN. YOu are lost on the WHEN.

Your entire post is a SIDE STEP. You are lost as far as timing, and are only here to push false doctrine on all the readers. If you had any desire to learn, you would answer the three questions. Are you SCARED of finding out your timing is wrong?

We can get to all these side step issues. Right now I want you to prove that the first seal is the antichrist and is still future. I have already proved over and over that the first seal was opened as soon as Jesus ascended - 32 AD. You cannot prove this wrong, for IT IS TRUTH.

By the way, the one taken out of the way, is the Holy Spirit residing on the BRIDE OF CHRIST. When the Bride is "taken out of the way," so is the Holy Spirit ON the bride.

Now suppose instead of just asking more questions, you answer mine? or will you just side step again?

Short Timer said:

The first seal is the white horse,
the fourth seal is a pale horse.

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Make no mistake, the bow in question is a bow that shoots arrows! It comes from the Greek word "toxon." Can you guess why a BOW that shoots an arrow would come from this word? It was standard practice back then to put POISON on the arrows.

Remember, the weapons of our warfare are NOT carnal or fleshly weapons, but they certain work to the overthrow of strongholds. The church has been given the weapons needed to take down the strongholds of the enemy. I think the Bow just represents our spiritual weapons. It needs no arrows.

Riberra said:

By rapture you mean that the whole event will happen before the tribulation not unto the coming of the Lord, as mentioned in the epistle to Thess. is that right ?

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I did not give any timing information away in that post. However, you KNOW I teach a pretrib rapture. And Paul's rapture IS A COMING of the Lord, but only to the air. And it is a coming that becomes the trigger for the start of the DAY.

Short Timer said:

No man was found because all men have sinned, dying for sin required someone who had no sin, that only leaves "God" to fulfill the requirement of the Law.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,

Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Nope, John was simply saying that "No man" could be a savior, only "God in the flesh" could save.

Of course many don't believe Jesus was "GOD", in the flesh.

Just did.

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Sorry, but your answer is simply wrong. We can tell from what John wrote that ONLY A MAN could break the seals. John was showing is the search was a search for a MAN.....but sadly no man was found. What kind of man? It must have to be a man that would DEFEAT DEATH. The moment Jesus rose from the dead, He was found worthy. The very fact that another search was started as soon as the one John watched ended gives us a strong hint that this search has been ongoing. You can ignore this fact if you choose.

You completely MISSED the intent of the Author, the Holy Spirit. He is showing us the TIMING of this event. NO MAN WAS FOUND at the first search, simply because JESUS had not yet risen from the dead.

THIS WAS GOD'S POINT IN WRITING THIS. Three times God drives this point home:
1. Jesus NOT IN the throne room
2. NO MAN was found worthy (yet in the next search JESUS was found)
3; Holy Spirit still in the throne room until Jesus ascended - then He was sent down to earth.

All these PROVE the timing of this part of John's vision is just before HE rose from the dead to the time He rose to the time He ascended.

The moment He arrived in the throne room, He got the scroll and began breaking seals - about 32 AD.

Remember what God said to me: His very words: "Until you can answer these questions correctly, you will NEVER understand this part of the vision." As long as you insist the first seal is the AC, you are not understanding.

Short Timer said:

God only chastise "his own", the trib is God chastising Israel using the AC as a "Rod",
ya mommy ever whip you with a switch (small tree branch) or belt, God said chastisement was because of "Love" for the person.

Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

2Sa 7:14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:

Isa 10:5 O Assyrian, (AC) the rod of mine anger, and the staff (power/authority) in their hand is mine indignation.

Pr 22:15 Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.
Pr 23:13 Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.
Pr 23:14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.
Pr 13:24 He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.

People not accounted worthy to escape chastisement will enter the trib right along with Israel, (five virgins/servant) and have their "Flesh" (body of sin) turned over to satan for it's (flesh) destruction, but the soul is still saved.

Re 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
Re 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.


People who die prior to the rapture, but wouldn't really be worthy to be rapture, will still go to heaven, they'll lose some rewards, but works don't save.

Once saved/always saved, is true, even if you get so far away from God you forget that you were saved.

2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

We all sin after being saved, so to prevent the sins from condemning us, the spirit "Seals" the soul against sin,
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Or you can say God won't impute sin to us.
Ro 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

The rapture will mark the start of a time such as never been before or even will be again, those who have been faithful and not deserving of Chastisement (accounted worthy) will escape the trib in the only place they can be safe from the AC, in heaven, because everything on earth is going to be under his authority.

Re 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea!

for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

The church represent Jesus, or the "Body of Christ", now imagine the devil having power/authority over "Jesus" and his "Holy Ghost",

If you don't believe in a pre trib rapture, then you have to believe the devil will have power/authority over Jesus/HG.

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"If you don't believe in a pre trib rapture, then you have to believe the devil will have power/authority over Jesus/HG."

Your above statement is absolutely false.

Postvieww said:

A few questions for some of my pretrib brothers. I’ve noticed some who support pre-trib doctrine, some on this thread and others on similar threads express the theory that those who do not believe in the pretrib doctrine may just be left behind when and if this actually occurs. Others say only the more spiritual or the more holy members of the church will go in the rapture. The purpose of this question is to provoke thought and bring clarity to this issue. 1. For those who believe this, are you saying those who fall in this category are saved and will ultimately receive their eternal reward even though they missed the rapture, or they are not born again at all? 2. If there is to be this separation at the presumed pre-trib rapture where is this separation made at the death of a believer before that time? 3. Will the spirits of those that would not be found worthy for the rapture go to heaven at death to be with the Lord? 4. If they are worthy for heaven at death but would not have made the rapture will they be left in heaven when Christ returns with the spirits of those more worthy to receive their resurrection bodies? Some of this thinking causes theological problems. My thoughts on this are, one is saved or they are not. Some will receive more rewards than others but there are not degrees of salvation, you are in or out. I personally believe what one’s position as to the timing of the coming of the Lord has no bearing on salvation. Sometimes statements are made in the heat of debate by both sides that are not thought out to their logical conclusion.

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There will be born again people left behind simply because they are SHORT on the "oil" of the Holy Spirit. If you wish to call them lukewarm, OK. Others will be left behind because they don't believe in a pretrib rapture, even though they may have the Holy Spirit that would otherwise qualify them. Jesus is coming for those WATCHING for Him. Posttrib believers will not be watching for HIM, they will be watching for the Beast. How many times did Jesus warn us to WATCH?

For those left behind, there will then be only ONE WAY into heaven, and that is by refusing the mark and losing their head.

iamlamad said:

You can write: "nowhere in scripture is any reference of two returns of Christ." What you mean is, with your current preconceptions you CAN'T SEE two. Pretribbers have no problem seeing two.

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Of course pretribbers have no problem seeing two coming of the Lord yet to come ...it is needed for their theory to work.

Lamad said:

What your preconceived glasses are not allowing you to see is that when you compare all the scriptures on "The Day of the Lord," it is very clear that it comes with a great earthquake (Isaiah 2) that it comes to destroy the planet and the sinners on the planet, and it comes as a very dark day with much fear. For example, you completely ignore the prophecy of Joel concerning the "Day of the Lord" where the cattle are perplexed because the fire had burned up all the pasture and the trumpet judgment that fulfills this very prophecy. In fact, John shows it exactly as it was prophesied, starting AT THE 6th SEAL. But this don't fit your theory, so you must rearrange. So which side is doing all the "word gymnastics, and all sorts of human reasoning to explain away truth?"

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Which earthquake will cause the more destruction and death... obviously the total earthquake described in Revelation 16 at the END of the Tribulation when it is said that Jesus is coming as a thief Revelation 16:15, yet you argue that this will be the one described at the opening of the 6th seal at the beginning of the tribulation mentioned in Revelation 6..... Chessmate!!!

Note how the new Bible versions place Revelation 16:15 text betwen parenthesis because it does not fit with the pre-tribulation rapture theory .While that in KJV the verse is not placed betwen ( )

iamlamad said:

If you think the God we serve kills His own, then you are past any help at all. I mean, why rapture us at all if He wants to kill us? Your answers are insane! It is the hatred of the BEAST that kills the two witnesses.

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Why did God want Jesus killed???

You don't understand the plan of salvation, especially the part about killing the flesh or "Body of sin".

It is NOT GOD'S WILL that ANY of His own suffer through the days of His wrath. That is why HIS WILL is all of us pray to be found worthy to escape. Surely you have read Luke 21:36. His will is that all of His will be READY for the pretrib rapture.

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Yes, but the fact is, all won't be ready, especially Israel, and they will die in order to be saved, both Satan and God saying they "should be killed".

Re 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Re 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Right now I want you to prove that the first seal is the antichrist and is still future. I have already proved over and over that the first seal was opened as soon as Jesus ascended - 32 AD. You cannot prove this wrong, for IT IS TRUTH.

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Where is this "Man of peace" who make a treaty with Israel/her enemies, where is the rebuild temple/sacrifices, all of these occur right after the first seal is opened???

Your time line don't line up with scripture.

By the way, the one taken out of the way, is the Holy Spirit residing on the BRIDE OF CHRIST. When the Bride is "taken out of the way," so is the Holy Spirit ON the bride.

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That right, but you don't have an AC, or a trib, until after he is taken out of the way, you're trying to deny the first half of the trib even exist.

and the Two days (two thousand years) Israel would be blinded until the fulness of the gentiles or rapture, and then the AC revealed.

http://i18.tinypic.com/66c6f51.jpg

Now suppose instead of just asking more questions, you answer mine? or will you just side step again?

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All you're doing is trying to explain what happen, not "WHY", and if you don't know the why, then you don't understand what is happening.

Short Timer said:

The first seal is the white horse,
the fourth seal is a pale horse.

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Yes Thanks Short Timer. I see that.

iamlamad said:

Make no mistake, the bow in question is a bow that shoots arrows! It comes from the Greek word "toxon." Can you guess why a BOW that shoots an arrow would come from this word? It was standard practice back then to put POISON on the arrows.

Remember, the weapons of our warfare are NOT carnal or fleshly weapons, but they certain work to the overthrow of strongholds. The church has been given the weapons needed to take down the strongholds of the enemy. I think the Bow just represents our spiritual weapons. It needs no arrows.

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thanks for that iamlamad..that helps too.

Postvieww said:

1. For those who believe this, are you saying those who fall in this category are saved and will ultimately receive their eternal reward even though they missed the rapture, or they are not born again at all?

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Here's a question for you concerning the eternal rewards Christ will be bringing with Him.

"How and where" will He reward us if He's coming to judge the world and fight in Armageddon near the end of the tribulation? Can you clarify with scriptures?






.

The bow in Rev 6:2 is not a weapon, it's referring to a prostrate position, as in an act of submission. Like bowing to your superiors. Before the antichrist reign over the earth for 3.5 years, he comes in by peace and flattery. He establishes a peace treaty with Israel. He will deceive many by stopping the conflict in the Middle East between muslims (Sunnis vs Shiites) nations during the first half of the tribulation.

Then he will be given a crown (and a crown was given to him) as their Madhi.

Then he unites all muslims (and he went out conquering and to conquer) to fight together and invade Jerusalem at the middle of the tribulation.


Also a good majority of all english translations uses the word "had" a bow, over "held" a bow.

Now if the bow is an actual weapon, the question we be asking is "if he actually had a bow, what happened to the bow?"

Oh brother. I just realized the KJV called the horse a him. The only reason why I showed Revelation 6:2 in the KJV also is because most people uses that version over all others. How do they know it's a male horse? Ahh, anyone for unicorns?

Psalm3704 said:

Here's a question for you concerning the eternal rewards Christ will be bringing with Him.

"How and where" will He reward us if He's coming to judge the world and fight in Armageddon near the end of the tribulation? Can you clarify with scriptures?






.

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Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


The seventh or last trump of 1 Corin 15:52. Christ returns takes possession of the kingdoms of this world, after destroying “them which destroy the earth” (Armageddon) verse 18


16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,


17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.


18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


Clearly Christ judges the dead. Gives rewards to His “servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great”.


19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.


The book of Revelation is not all in chronological order this passage is just one more evidence.

Short Timer said in post 2343:

Best read the OT, sacrifices will continue in the MK.

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Note that nothing in the OT (or the NT) says or requires that the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law will come back into effect during the future millennium, just as nothing in the OT (or the NT) says or requires that the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law will come back into effect during the future tribulation (which will just-precede the millennium).

-

Regarding Ezekiel chapters 40 to 48, note that they aren't necessarily a prophecy of future events which must happen, like those in Revelation must happen (Revelation 1:1), but could have been a conditional vision which Israel had to fulfill while it was still in Old Testament/Old Covenant times (Ezekiel 43:11). For the vision refers to animal sacrifices for sin (e.g. Ezekiel 43:21-22), which were forever abolished by Jesus on the Cross, along with all the rest of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Hebrews 7:18-19, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18). Jesus' New Covenant sacrifice for sin (Matthew 26:28) completely and forever replaced all the Old Covenant animal sacrifices for sin (Hebrews 10:1-23).

Nonetheless, when Jesus returns and begins his millennial reign on the earth (Revelation 20:4-6, Zechariah 14:3-21), he will still build a New Covenant, 4th temple building in Jerusalem; and New Covenant animal sacrifices will be offered in front of that temple (Zechariah 14:20-21, Zechariah 6:12-13). Instead of these sacrifices being for sin, they could be for thanksgiving (cf. Leviticus 22:29). Jesus could build that temple, and it could be operated according to the description in Ezekiel chapters 40 to 48, but leaving out the parts about animal sacrifices for sin. Another possibility is that New Covenant animal sacrifices for sin will be made, but only as a remembrance of Jesus' New Covenant sacrifice on the Cross for our sins (Matthew 26:28), like how communion is currently partaken of in remembrance of Jesus' sacrifice (Luke 22:19). The current practice of communion could cease at Jesus' return (1 Corinthians 11:26).

Also, after the millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15), when the literal city of New Jerusalem will land on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-3), there will no longer be any temple building (Revelation 21:22).

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If Ezekiel chapters 40 to 48 are a prophecy of future events, and weren't only a conditional vision which now will never be fulfilled, the sabbath and feasts (e.g. Ezekiel 46:4,9) won't be those of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, but a better version of them, under the New Covenant.

The rules in Ezekiel chapters 40 to 48 are different in detail from the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. For example, note all the differences in the details of the passover animal sacrifice requirements of Ezekiel 45:21-25 and those of Numbers 28:16-24.

Short Timer said in post 2343:

Salvation can't be lost . . .

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Actually, it can be lost. For note that the Bible doesn't teach once-saved-always-saved, but shows that initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only "if" they continue in the faith to the end (Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Colossians 1:23). And there is no assurance they will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to depart from the faith, to no longer believe, to commit apostasy (Luke 8:13; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 4:3-4; 2 Thessalonians 2:3, Hebrews 3:12, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b, Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 10:38-39, Matthew 24:9-13).

Also, even if they do continue in the faith, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they also patiently continue to the end in obedience and good works (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Philippians 2:12b; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9; 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 6:10-12, Philippians 3:11-14; 1 John 2:17b), as in works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law). And there is no assurance they will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

Also, even if they do continue in faith and good works of faith, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they also continue to the end to repent from every sin they commit (Hebrews 10:26-29, 1 Corinthians 9:27, Matthew 7:22-23, Galatians 5:19-21). And there is no assurance they will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to commit unrepentant sin, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Luke 12:45-46; 2 Peter 2:20-22, Romans 8:13; 1 John 5:16, James 5:19-20).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they get water-immersion (burial) baptized into Jesus' death for our sins (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21, Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12, Galatians 3:27, Acts 2:38). And there is no assurance they will choose to do that (cf. Acts 22:16a).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they partake of the divine flesh and blood of communion (John 6:53, Matthew 26:26-28; 1 Corinthians 10:16; 1 Corinthians 11:27-30). And there is no assurance they will choose to do that (cf. John 6:60,66).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they forgive everyone for every wrong (Matthew 6:14-15). And there is no assurance they will choose to do that (Matthew 18:21-35).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they do all they can (Romans 12:18) to make reparations to and peace with everyone whom they have ever wronged (Matthew 5:23-26, cf. Acts 24:16). And there is no assurance they will choose to do that.

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they help Christians in need (Matthew 25:34-46). And there is no assurance they will choose to do that (3 John 1:10b).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they provide for their families (1 Timothy 5:8). And there is no assurance they will choose to do that.

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they don't commit the unforgivable sin, which is blaspheming the Holy Spirit (Mark 3:29). An example of blaspheming the Holy Spirit is saying that an act performed by the power of the Holy Spirit (e.g. Matthew 12:28) was performed by Satan (Mark 3:22-30). There is no assurance initially saved people will never choose to say that (cf. 1 Corinthians 14:39b; 1 Thessalonians 5:19).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they don't remove words from the book of Revelation and then publish the altered text as if it were the original, without repentance (Revelation 22:19). There is no assurance they will never choose to do that (cf. 2 Corinthians 4:2).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they don't worship the future Antichrist and his image, and willingly receive his mark on their right hand or forehead (Revelation 14:9-12, Revelation 13:16-18). There is no assurance they won't choose to do that (1 Timothy 4:1).

Initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they continue in God's goodness to the end (Romans 11:20-22). And there is no assurance they will choose to do that (Luke 12:45-46).

Initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they overcome to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:11, Revelation 2:26). And there is no assurance they will choose to do that (Revelation 21:7-8).

All this is said not to engender any unhealthy fear in believers, but the healthy fear which all believers are supposed to have (e.g. Romans 11:20-22).

And all this is said not to engender any despair in believers, but the healthy, close-clinging to the person of Jesus himself, which all believers must continue in (John 15:4-6). For while God makes it possible for initially saved people to do the right thing (Philippians 2:13) toward their ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, Philippians 2:12b, Matthew 7:21), this is possible only so long as they continue to abide in Jesus. For on their own, apart from Jesus, they can't do anything good (John 15:4-5).

Also, Jesus isn't a hard taskmaster. He will never give believers more work to do for him than they can easily bear (Matthew 11:28-30). So if believers ever get stressed out that Jesus is asking them to do too much, it is not Jesus asking them to do whatever is stressing them out (Luke 10:40-42). They need to take a step back and ask Jesus what particular spiritual work he is actually asking them as individuals to do (Mark 13:34, Romans 12:6-8).

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Short Timer said in post 2364:

People not accounted worthy to escape chastisement will enter the trib right along with Israel, (five virgins/servant) and have their "Flesh" (body of sin) turned over to satan for it's (flesh) destruction, but the soul is still saved.

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Regarding "five virgins/servant", note that the 10-virgins parable (Matthew 25:1-13) shows that the marriage of the church to Jesus won't occur until his 2nd coming (Matthew 25:10), which Jesus had just finished saying won't occur until "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), just like Revelation 19:7 shows that the marriage won't occur until after the (never fulfilled) tribulation, shown in Revelation chapters 6 to 18. The parable's extra oil (Matthew 25:4,9b) could represent the continued good works of believers, by which they will be able to pass the judgment of the church by Jesus (Matthew 25:19-30, Romans 2:6-8) and enter the marriage of the church to Jesus at his 2nd coming (Matthew 25:10, Revelation 19:7-21).

The marriage supper (Revelation 19:9) won't have yet begun by the time of Revelation 19, which won't begin until after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (cf. Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). For regarding the church, the marriage supper will be a literal feast in the earthly Jerusalem after the resurrection and marriage of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54). While the church will enjoy a feast "of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined" (Isaiah 25:6), the birds will feast on the corpses of the world's armies defeated by Jesus' at his 2nd coming (Revelation 19:17-21).

Also, regarding the 10-virgins parable, in Matthew 25:6 "midnight" could represent mid-tribulation, when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) could be set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31). So when it says "at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh" (Matthew 25:6), this could mean that at the mid-tribulation point when the abomination of desolation is set up, the church will be given the knowledge of the date (as in the year, month, and day) of Jesus' 2nd coming. This date could be the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11-12, cf. Revelation 16:15).

Short Timer said in post 2364:

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

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The day of redemption in Ephesians 4:30, as in Ephesians 1:14, refers to when, at Jesus' 2nd coming, obedient believers' physical bodies will be redeemed (Romans 8:23-25) by being resurrected (if dead) or changed (if alive) into immortal flesh and bone bodies like Jesus was resurrected into on the 3rd day after his death (Luke 24:39,46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4,21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21).

Ephesians 4:30 and Ephesians 1:14 don't require that every initially saved person will receive ultimate salvation on the day of redemption, for some saved people, at the judgment of the church by Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30), at his 2nd coming (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), will lose their salvation because of such things as unrepentant sin (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or apostasy (Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 6:4-8; 2 Timothy 2:12b). That is why saved people know the "terror" of the coming judgment of the church by Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:10-11), why they must remain in fear of being cut off the same as unbelievers if they don't continue in God's goodness (Romans 11:20-22, Luke 12:45-46), why they must be careful to work out their own ultimate salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12b; 1 Peter 1:17, Romans 2:6-8).

Short Timer said in post 2364:

The church represent Jesus, or the "Body of Christ", now imagine the devil having power/authority over "Jesus" and his "Holy Ghost" . . .

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Regarding the devil being allowed to have physical power over some people in the church, imagine Revelation 2:10.

QUESTION POSED.


“How can there be a post trib rapture when the elects are gather from heaven? People go up in a rapture, they don't come down.”



ANSWER


This not an argument based on scripture, it is a human reasoning argument based on the false premise of the church being raptured to heaven prior to the tribulation. There is no rapture in scripture where the church goes up to where God dwells. There is scripture for those dead in Christ (their spirits) coming down with him.


1 Thess 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.


16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


The spirits of those dead in Christs do come down in the second coming to be united with their new bodies 1 Thesss 3:13 1 Thess 4: 14 Zech 14:5 Jude 14



Nothing in this verse says anyone goes back to heaven (where God dwells), that is a false premise with no scripture. Trump of God same trump as Matt.24:31 and 1 Corin 15:52


Matt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:


Both references to heaven in vs 29 refer to a cosmic event as set by the context of the verse. Sun darkened, moon not giving light. Stars fall from heaven also a cosmic event established by the context. “The powers of the heavens” refers to at least 2 of the 3 heavens, in the context of the verse still a cosmic event.


30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


Heaven in this verse is clearly the sky above our heads because “all the tribes of the earth” witness the event and they mourn. Since the tribes of the earth see the “sign of the Son of man” in the sky above our heads and they see “the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven” the second reference in this passage of the word heaven is also the sky above our heads.


31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


If “he” sends his angels to gather does he send them from earth back to heaven (where God dwells) or does “he” send them from heaven (where God dwells) to the earth to gather? Scripture backs up the latter.


Jer. 49: 36 And upon Elam will I bring the four winds from the four quarters of heaven, and will scatter them toward all those winds; and there shall be no nation whither the outcasts of Elam shall not come.


The events of this passage are on this earth.


Dan.7:2 Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.


The events in this passage are a vision about things to happen on this earth.


Dan 8:8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.


The events of this passage are on the earth.


Zech 2: 6 Ho, ho, come forth, and flee from the land of the north, saith the Lord: for I have spread you abroad as the four winds of the heaven, saith the Lord.


The events of this passage are on the earth


In context none of the above verses refer to heaven where God dwells.


The question is built on a false primise as shown above.

iamlamad said in post 2344:

He has made NO APPOINTMENT for us with His wrath.

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Amen!

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep [live or die], we should live together with him.

But note that nothing requires that the entire future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 will be God's wrath, or that any part of the tribulation that will be his wrath will be directed against any of the saved people (1 Thessalonians 5:9) who will still be alive on the earth at that time (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Most of the tribulation could be only Satan's wrath working through evil people and natural forces to bring disaster on the earth, like when Satan was allowed to work through evil people and natural forces to bring disaster on righteous Job (Job 1:12-20), against whom God had no wrath.

The tribulation's first 5 seals (Revelation 6:1-11) won't be God's wrath or judgment, for after the first 4 seals, the martyrs of the 5th seal ask God when he is going to bring his judgment against the world (Revelation 6:10). And the killing of even more martyrs, which the 5th seal foretells will happen sometime after the 5th seal (Revelation 6:11), won't be God's wrath against those martyrs. So Jesus' unsealing of the seals (Revelation 6), the tribulation's first stage, doesn't mean the events unsealed will be God's wrath, but that they will be permitted by God to happen at that time.

The tribulation's 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-14) will happen sometime before the day of the Lord (Joel 2:31, Revelation 6:12), as in only a few years before. The day of the Lord itself won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't happen until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). Similarly, the day of the Lord's wrath (Psalms 110:5) won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19-21).

So the people quoted at the 6th seal (Revelation 6:17), during only the first stage of the tribulation, could be just as mistaken as Job was when Job said that what was happening to him was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11). Just as what was happening to Job was actually Satan's wrath against him, not God's wrath, so the 6th seal could actually be Satan's wrath, not God's wrath. And just as the writer of the book of Job didn't go out of his way to correct Job's mistaken statement in Job 19:11, and just as the apostles John and Matthew didn't go out of their way to correct the mistaken statements of the people they quoted in John 7:12b and Matthew 27:63a, so the apostle John could have not gone out of his way to correct the statement of the people he quoted in Revelation 6:17.

After the tribulation's 6th seal will occur its 7th seal (Revelation 8:1), out of which will come its 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-2). Note that nothing requires that any of the first 6 trumpets' events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will be God's wrath. The 5th trumpet's events will be the work of strange locust-like beings from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:2-10), led by a fallen angel from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:11). And the 6th trumpet's events to the end of Revelation 9 will be the work of weird horse-like beings led by 4 fallen angels previously bound at the Euphrates (Revelation 9:14-19). So even though good angels of God will sound the first 6 trumpets, this could be announcing God's allowing the wrath of Satan to destroy 1/3 of different things (Revelation 8:7-12, Revelation 9:15,18), just as Satan will subsequently, mid-tribulation, be allowed by God to cause 1/3 of the angels (i.e. his fallen angels) to be cast down to the earth permanently (Revelation 12:4,9).

Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will happen before the Antichrist's (the individual-man aspect of the beast's) future, literal 3.5-year worldwide Luciferian/Satanic reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). And the events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 could be used by Satan to help prepare the world to welcome that reign. For what he could do is first take great pleasure in causing the destruction in each event, but then claim that the destruction isn't from him, but from YHWH, and that YHWH is a cruel tyrant god who hates mankind and only wants to make it suffer, while he (Satan, as "Lucifer") only wants the best for mankind (cf. Mark 8:33b). In this way, he could deceive the world into turning away from YHWH and instead worshipping him (the dragon) and the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). The Antichrist will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36).

After the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year reign (Revelation 13:5-7) is declared legally over at the sounding of the tribulation's 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the 7 plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath will come out of the heavenly-temple opening of the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1). The vials will then be poured out on the Antichrist's followers as God's judgment for their receiving the Antichrist's mark and worshipping his image (Revelation 16:2), and for their killing of people in the church (Revelation 16:6-7, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

During the Antichrist's worldwide reign, people in the church will be hated and killed in every nation for refusing to renounce the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the witness of Jesus Christ (Revelation 20:4), for refusing to accept the antichrist lies that Jesus himself isn't the Christ (1 John 2:22), and that Christ himself isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the sound doctrine of the Bible, the Word of God (Revelation 20:4; 2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4), for refusing to depart from the Biblical faith and to give heed instead to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils (1 Timothy 4:1-2). They will be beheaded for refusing to worship the Antichrist's image (Revelation 20:4, Revelation 13:15). And all of this will be Satan's wrath against the church (Revelation 12:17), not God's wrath, for the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

Even when God's wrath comes in the 7 vials (Revelation 16), the tribulation's final stage, because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), none of the vials will be directed at any of those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have prepared for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had prepared for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:11,13).

Jesus will return right after the 7th-and-last vial is completed (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21, Matthew 24:29-30), and he will bring the 2nd-coming wrath of God on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:15-21). But before that 2nd-coming wrath begins, the church will be caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and the world's armies (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

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iamlamad said in post 2346:

For example, you completely ignore the prophecy of Joel concerning the "Day of the Lord" where the cattle are perplexed because the fire had burned up all the pasture and the trumpet judgment that fulfills this very prophecy.

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Note that Joel 1:18-20 is a different event than the first trumpet of the future tribulation (Revelation 8:7). For the latter won't include all the trees being burnt up (Joel 1:19b), or the rivers of waters being dried up (Joel 1:20). Instead, at the time of the first trumpet, only 1/3 of the trees will be burnt up (Revelation 8:7). And the rivers of waters won't be affected until the 3rd trumpet, which won't dry any of them up, but instead will make only 1/3 of them poisonous (Revelation 8:10-11).

Joel 1:18-20 could refer to an ancient, severe drought, and resulting wildfires, which affected the Israelites in their land.

Similarly, the subsequent verses of Joel 2:1-27 can refer poetically to a literal locust invasion which destroyed ancient Israel's crops (Joel 2:25) sometime before the Acts 2 day of Pentecost in the 1st century AD (Joel 2:28-29, Acts 2:16-18). For the day of the Lord in Joel 2:1-27 can refer to an ancient day of the Lord, like the ancient day of the Lord in Jeremiah 46:2,10. Both of these ancient days of the Lord can be different than the future day of the Lord (Joel 2:31), which won't start until sometime after (as in only a few years after) the 6th seal (Revelation 6:12, Joel 2:31) of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. For the future day of the Lord (Christ) (2 Thessalonians 2:2) won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't occur until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

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iamlamad said in post 2371:

Jesus is coming for those WATCHING for Him.

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Amen.

For during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, believers will have to "watch" (stay awake, spiritually) for Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:42-43, Matthew 25:13, Luke 21:36), which Jesus has just finished saying won't occur until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). For if a believer isn't "watching" (staying awake, spiritually) for the 2nd coming, it will take that believer by surprise (cf. the if principle of Revelation 3:3b). And that believer will lose his or her salvation at that time because of such things as unrepentant sin (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).

Also, even when believers know the truth that Jesus' return won't occur until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31), they still need to live each day knowing that any of them could die at any time (Luke 12:20, James 4:14).

iamlamad said in post 2371:

Posttrib believers will not be watching for HIM, they will be watching for the Beast.

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No believers are watching for the tribulation's beast instead of Jesus' 2nd coming, even though those Christians who (rightly) hold to the post-tribulation rapture view know that the tribulation must come first (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; cf. 1 Peter 4:12-13). For a Christian (whether male or female) who holds to the post-tribulation rapture view is like a pregnant woman nearing the end of her term. She isn't watching for birthing pains instead of the birth of her child, but she knows that birthing pains must come first (John 16:21-22, Isaiah 26:17-19; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23).