Without Human Existence, Does God Need to Be Good?

jenny1972

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Since humanity has already done enough through the millennia to erase God from the moral picture, I thought it might be interesting to place the shoe on the other foot, so to speak, and conceptually erase humanity from God's moral picture (which in essence gives us God as He may have been before imputing to Him any concept of 'Creation').

So, if we entertain this moral 'thought project,' we might find some interesting questions coming to our minds. One path of inquiry that comes to my mind is that I wonder what need God has for morality if---alone as the Ground of Being (as Tillich might say), outside of, and without, time, and not in any way, shape, or form contesting His existential Ground, or competing with any other force---He has no lesser beings to commune with or to instruct. The question then might be articulated as:

Without Human Existence, Does God Need to Be Good?

...and where does this question take us philosophically?

2PhiloVoid

so basically what your asking is if a tree falls in the woods and there is noone to hear it does it still make a noise ?

maybe it makes a sound that only it can hear :)
 
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2PhiloVoid

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When God is omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, and predestined the world, and our lives before he created the earth, what's the whole point of righteousness, damnation, and redemption or condemnation roads on our part, when it is all pre-planned by God before we come to exist in the life that is judged by his rules? Set into place over a plan he's designed before we were born with us in mind as individuals living our unique lives according to plan.

Hello Heatedmonk,

While I do appreciate some aspects of the Calvinist's position, I'm not attempting to present a 'thought project' in this thread that treads the lines of traditional Christian theology. This is a thread that is meant to take us out of that set of lines and treat the idea of a god-entity as an abstract...and I do have my reasons for doing so.

Sure, we can appeal to Scripture if we want to take in and digest the inspiration of the Gospel. The only problem with this is that a straightforward appeal to Scripture (and/or a variety of Protestant theological positions) will not disabuse us of philosophical dilemmas that need to be thought through and analyzed, such as Plato's Euthyphro problem.

Catch my drift? If not, that is ok. But, please keep in mind that for some of us, these issues are not to be discarded with ease. Some of us have a need to mentally work through these issues in order to feel that some resolution has been reached from the inherent challenge which they pose.

Be blessed,
2PhiloVoid
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Does this question imply that god has to be good with humans in the picture?

The OP seems to imply the answer is yes.....I'm just not sure why we're assuming that to begin with.

Hello Ana,

Good question. MMMmmm......no, I really don't think it implies specifically that god "has to be good," although you may be picking up on a nuance which just happens to be ingrained in the construct of the overall hypothetical I've constructed. Does an act of creation imply goodness? Does the creation of actual lesser beings imply some goodness? Maybe, maybe not.

One reason I've purposely removed humans from the moral picture is so we'll be prompted to think about "how" we contemplate the overall nature of a god-entity. I want us to think about what a god-entity might be---as 'It' is in itself--and then frame this particular contemplation in our minds as a consideration that comes BEFORE our typical theological and axiological evaluations.

Hopefully, some of this thread's discussion will dig into the ways in which we understand and/or evaluate what a god-entity is doing and being, on an axiological level, as applied to the context of evaluating the way in which 'It' creates for itself, and interacts with, a social context that wasn't there 'before.' I want us to think about the possibility of any hint of 'goodness' that is shown by the creative actions of an abstracted god-entity, and contemplate from whence does this goodness comes. (Or conversely, from whence does an appearance of 'evil' come).

If this doesn't make sense, then I would ask you to compare my hypothetical exercise with the one Plato constructed in his Euthyphro; that's a direction that will useful here, I think. However, I do not want this thread to break down into an argument that replicates what is already being discussed on other threads.

Thanks for your contribution,

2PhiloVoid
 
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2PhiloVoid

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At what standards do we use to verify that god is good?

Hi Super Animator,

What standards? Excellent question, really; and I'm not just saying that! What standards, indeed!

I'm leaving your question open for discussion, since I'm attempting to keep this thread on the Axiological Plane, so to speak, and within the paramaters of philosophy proper. This way we're not stepping over into theology proper (even though there is some toe-tipping overlap, obviously). By keeping this thread philosophically abstract, we might begin to see some of our underlying thought structures emerge (and problems and limits we have with those same structures).

What standards do you think should be used to verify that god is good? Can you do that without implicating human existence within the basic explanation?

Thank you for asking,
2PhiloVoid
 
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jenny1972

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Does an act of creation imply goodness? Does the creation of actual lesser beings imply some goodness? Maybe, maybe not.

isnt the concepts of "good and evil" a human judgement and human interpretation . God just IS , just like we just exist - others determine our quality and determine us to be good or bad . without judgement or interpretation God just IS and indeed i have heard many atheists insist that God must be bad for this or that reason.

Moses asked Gods name and God replied I Am that I Am , despite that we call God God as well as many other names by different people throughout the world and we have chosen to give and attribute many human things to Him . We are able to know God a little through a personal relationship with Him He can communicate and reveal Himself but i do not think any of us can have complete knowledge of Gods attributes and personality or even grasp with our human minds most of Him .
 
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2PhiloVoid

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so basically what your asking is if a tree falls in the woods and there is noone to hear it does it still make a noise ?

maybe it makes a sound that only it can hear :)

Hi Jenny,

lol. I suppose my hypothetical scenario might seem to be similar to a Chinese "Koan," but I don't really intend for it to be. I don't want us to waste time in thinking about something useless like "how many angels can fit in the head of a pin," or other such nonsense. ;) Rather, I want us to think about 'how' we are constructing our reasoning about the relationship BETWEEN two conceptual entities: 1) God (whatever that is), and 2) the Good (whatever that is, too).

Be blessed,
2PhiloVoid
 
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jenny1972

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1) God (whatever that is), and 2) the Good (whatever that is, too).

we as humans can perceive God directly although i am sure we cannot grasp and understand all or even close to all of what God really is . God is for the most part a mystery . humans do not like mysteries we naturally try to figure things out we want to understand everything :) (also read my comment directly above yours)
 
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Ana the Ist

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Hi Super Animator,

What standards? Excellent question, really; and I'm not just saying that! What standards, indeed!

I'm leaving your question open for discussion, since I'm attempting to keep this thread on the Axiological Plane, so to speak, and within the paramaters of philosophy proper. This way we're not stepping over into theology proper (even though there is some toe-tipping overlap, obviously). By keeping this thread philosophically abstract, we might begin to see some of our underlying thought structures emerge (and problems and limits we have with those same structures).

What standards do you think should be used to verify that god is good? Can you do that without implicating human existence within the basic explanation?

Thank you for asking,
2PhiloVoid

I've thought about what godhood would entail unto itself ...and I never come up with a pretty picture. As to the OP, I think a few other posters have touched on the right answer... A being that is alone ...solitary...has little use for terms like good/evil. Let's modify your subject for a moment...

Suppose we're speaking about the last human on earth. Does he have use for moral concepts like good and bad? If so...only in a very limited capacity, right? He might think that it was bad that he didn't try to save a kitty with a broken leg instead of finishing it off and eating it. I would seriously doubt he'd hang onto these moral opinions though since he has no one to justify his actions to.

Going back to god...we need not imagine any other life around him for him to survive. He's utterly alone. Assuming that you're speaking about the kind of god that christians usually describe as existing (immaterial, eternal, omniscient, omnipotent, unchanging, etc) he would have even less use of moral values/opinions. I would imagine that he's without emotions of any kind...he lacks any neurons, synapses, hormones, endorphins or even any stimulus to react to...so I cannot picture him with any emotions. As such, he cannot even "feel bad/good" about anything he does...which denies him even the most basic kinds of moral opinions. He knows every choice he will make (if indeed he makes choices)...and he knows the consequences of these actions long before he does any action. So it's not as if he performs an action with any considerations for "good/bad"...what could possibly be good/evil to such a being?
 
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jenny1972

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He might think that it was bad that he didn't try to save a kitty with a broken leg instead of finishing it off and eating it. I would seriously doubt he'd hang onto these moral opinions though since he has no one to justify his actions to.

humans judge good and bad individually based on feelings for the most part , compassion and sympathy and empathy that we learn naturally throughout our lives as humans determines what we call good or bad . regardless of the justifications or judgements of others we would still have human feelings so good and bad would always exist as long as we exist . In other words the vast majority of people , those who have compassion and sympathy and empathy , would always feel bad if we didnt try to save a kitty with a broken leg based on our own internal judgement about the kitty and the situation and our feelings about that .
 
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Ana the Ist

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humans judge good and bad individually based on feelings for the most part , compassion and sympathy and empathy that we learn naturally throughout our lives as humans determines what we call good or bad . regardless of the justifications or judgements of others we would still have human feelings so good and bad would always exist as long as we exist . In other words the vast majority of people , those who have compassion and sympathy and empathy , would always feel bad if we didnt try to save a kitty with a broken leg based on our own internal judgement about the kitty and the situation and our feelings about that .


I disagree. I think the majority of people would feel fine about eating the kitty. Don't get hung up on the example though, I was just trying to illustrate a point about how easily morals change once external factors like society, politics, culture, perception of peers, etc are removed from the situation.

God has none of those things to base a set of moral values on. That leaves god with the inherent aspects of his being...internal factors...with which to base morality on. Obviously, no one knows enough about god to say for certain what these internal factors are...but we can give a pretty good guess at what they aren't. He doesn't die, eat, or have sex....so the basic urges of survival, hunger, and sex aren't going to drive his morality in any direction. Without some sort of biological structure...I can't imagine how god would have feelings either. I'm sure that a lot of believers will disagree with me on that...and I'm also sure they won't be able to explain how god gets emotions.

So....based on all that, I'm inclined to think that god doesn't have moral values.
 
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quatona

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What standards? Excellent question, really; and I'm not just saying that! What standards, indeed!

I'm leaving your question open for discussion, since I'm attempting to keep this thread on the Axiological Plane, so to speak, and within the paramaters of philosophy proper. This way we're not stepping over into theology proper (even though there is some toe-tipping overlap, obviously). By keeping this thread philosophically abstract, we might begin to see some of our underlying thought structures emerge (and problems and limits we have with those same structures).
Hey Philovoid,
I hope you don´t mind me butting in here.
While I appreciate this very attempt to keep the discussion philosophically abstract, I am doubting that this is possible (and if it is possible, I have my doubts that it makes sense to do so).
After all, we do exist (and, for purposes of this discussion, are the "someones" God is directing his actions towards).
Since we don´t have God here in front of us to look at and observe (or else we wouldn´t have to get entirely philosophical), what we actually are referring to is not God - it is god concept(s).
Or to put it differently: No matter whether and which God exists or not - humans have come up with the idea of a God existing, and this "invention" served a purpose (or several purposes), fulfilled needs and/or answered existential questions. You can´t have a god concept without having a (even if only rudimentary) theology (an idea what this God is, how this God is, what are God´s traits and properties).
Without theology, God wouldn´t even be worth a thought. It would be an empty concept - i.e. no concept at all. God concepts are created by and depend on there being a theology.

I think this is very pertinent particularly to the "God is good" idea. Why are these questions around God´s "goodness" so important and pressing to us? My answer: Because we have come to accept that as a basic, unalienable theological tenet (which again is the product of a human purpose/need: We want God to be good, because we want there to be a positive reason behind our existence). The question if God could possibly not be good isn´t really up for discussion - to the point that (if - hypothetically - it could be shown that there´s an evil mastermind behind the scenes) we would say "Well, this isn´t God, then." (That´s what we have devil-concepts for, after all ;) ).
If it were not for this pre-existing theology, we could simply say: "Who cares if God is good or evil or neutral? It doesn´t matter. God is what It is. Case closed."

To sum this up: Our god concepts are necessarily products of theology. We are humans discussing our concepts of god. It would be absurd to try to discuss concepts by stripping them of their content.
 
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jenny1972

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God has none of those things to base a set of moral values on. That leaves god with the inherent aspects of his being...internal factors...with which to base morality on. Obviously, no one knows enough about god to say for certain what these internal factors are...but we can give a pretty good guess at what they aren't. He doesn't die, eat, or have sex....so the basic urges of survival, hunger, and sex aren't going to drive his morality in any direction. Without some sort of biological structure...I can't imagine how god would have feelings either. I'm sure that a lot of believers will disagree with me on that...and I'm also sure they won't be able to explain how god gets emotions.

Isaiah 55:8-11
8"For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," declares the LORD. 9"For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts. 10"For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven, And do not return there without watering the earth And making it bear and sprout, And furnishing seed to the sower and bread to the eater;11So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire, And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.…

God (IAMthatIAM) is not human like we are not God the only way to know anything about God really is to connect with God directly and you will get some insight whatever God is interested in sharing with you at the time He thinks is right .

our human judgements about God being "good" or "bad" is based on individual perception and individual feelings we can only guess at what God considers "good" and "bad" or if the concepts even exist for God so this is and can only be an exercise at human guessing . God does have thoughts and does exist , but God is not a human.
 
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Chicken Little

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Since humanity has already done enough through the millennia to erase God from the moral picture, I thought it might be interesting to place the shoe on the other foot, so to speak, and conceptually erase humanity from God's moral picture (which in essence gives us God as He may have been before imputing to Him any concept of 'Creation').

So, if we entertain this moral 'thought project,' we might find some interesting questions coming to our minds. One path of inquiry that comes to my mind is that I wonder what need God has for morality if---alone as the Ground of Being (as Tillich might say), outside of, and without, time, and not in any way, shape, or form contesting His existential Ground, or competing with any other force---He has no lesser beings to commune with or to instruct. The question then might be articulated as:

Without Human Existence, Does God Need to Be Good?

...and where does this question take us philosophically?

2PhiloVoid
there is no sin without the concept of something to be usurped.
thus God can't usurp , and is in incapable of usurping himself.
ps there is no such thing as "good". that is man invention in his black hole between their ears.

there is only life and death.
we are feeding one or the other (seeds) with every thought and or action.
because the bottom line law of his creation/ life is reaping and sowing.
without reaping and sowing there is no life , and there can be no life .
thus free will to sow /plant to what we will to what we will give authority to life or death . (and each activity they leave a clear trail to life or death )
 
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jenny1972

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humans have come up with the idea of a God existing, and this "invention" served a purpose (or several purposes), fulfilled needs and/or answered existential questions. You can´t have a god concept without having a (even if only rudimentary) theology (an idea what this God is, how this God is, what are God´s traits and properties).
Without theology, God wouldn´t even be worth a thought. It would be an empty concept - i.e. no concept at all. God concepts are created by and depend on there being a theology.

having myself experienced the reality of God outside religion i can tell you that God does exist outside the construct of man made religion although of course i dont expect you to believe me . yes humans have created religion as well as all other organizations on the earth involving God or not involving God but humans have not created God . God is not a concept created by humans , but for those people who do not have proof that God exists there is still a human need to have a God concept or at least a human curiosity about who we are and why we exist.
 
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quatona

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having myself experienced the reality of God outside religion i can tell you that God does exist outside the construct of man made religion . yes humans have created religion as well as all other organizations on the earth involving God or not involving God but humans have not created God . God is not a concept created by humans , but for those people who do not have proof that God exists there is still a human need to have a God concept or at least a human curiosity about who we are and why we exist.
Not sure what this has to do with anything I said, sorry.
Btw. what was your idea in cutting off the "No matter whether and which God exists..." from the beginning of the paragraph you quoted?
 
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quatona

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having myself experienced the reality of God outside religion i can tell you that God does exist outside the construct of man made religion .
Well, I didn´t speak of religion. I spoke of the necessity of theology being involved once we start talking about "God".
Look, without a - at least rudimentary theology - you wouldn´t even have been able to tell whether what you experienced was the reality of God.
 
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jenny1972

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Not sure what this has to do with anything I said, sorry.
Btw. what was your idea in cutting off the "No matter whether and which God exists..." from the beginning of the paragraph you quoted?
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well i am replying to your idea that God is a human concept and does not exist outside man made religion and i cut off the 'No matter whether and which God exists' because when i quote someones comments instead of quoting everything they say i focus on the specific main point they are making and the specific main point you were making is that God is a concept created by humans so i was just focusing on the main point of your idea and the words that represented it.
 
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