Pope and Kim Davis

Cappadocious

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I take this use of language to mean ...

We use "I am (an) X" to describe all sorts of non-essential states we're in or properties we have. I'm mortal. I'm a sinner. I'm clothed. I'm a citizen of the United States.

But nobody is going around saying, "you mustn't say, 'I'm a homeowner', because your true home is in heaven and it misleadingly suggests that being a homeowner is the essence of who you are." That would be ridiculous.

Yet there are evangelicals who say that to say "I am gay" means something more essential than "I have same sex attractions". This is sophistry. I think the former term is wider in meaning but not necessarily more essential. This is sophistry that we don't need in the Orthodox Church.
 
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St Herman's Ghost

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I don't think that's the reasoning at all Kylissa, I think you're creating a false dichotomy here. I think that even with homosexuality being "natural," in the sense that it's found in nature, despite them born being homosexual, it's just a higher calling of God to purity and discipline. To deny what seems to you natural and pleasurable for the good of your soul. This sacrifice I think should be noted and possible be seen as highly respectable where observed.

To a lesser but similar degree, I have a naturally high libido and have struggled with the sin of fornication (God have mercy). There's a biological basis for this too but that doesn't mean I should rationalize that and self-enable myself to sexual addiction and sin.
 
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~Anastasia~

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Hmmmmmmm. I will need to think on this some more then. I see your point. And maybe I'm not even coming at it from the right basis in the first place (the reason why "I am x" is a problem).

What I can say is that it seems better, from my point of view, to say "I struggle with x-sin" than to say "I am an x-sinner" as if it is part of my essential being. To say "I struggle with telling lies" instead of saying "I am a liar". It seems not only more accurate, but also more HOPEFUL, as well as being a better description of the position I find myself in and how I deal with it.

To be honest, if that were a particular struggle of mine, I *think* I would much more rather say "I struggle with same-sex attraction" than I would want to say "I am gay". At least if I take the position of the Orthodox Church to understand that this particular situation is the improper bent of human passions, and that God does not endorse it.

(If I AM trying to prove somehow that God endorses it, and looking for a way to justify my actions, I would in that case want to say "I am a liar" or "I am gay".)

Maybe I am making some errors in here, but I'm really trying to understand, and this is how it makes sense to me. I'm not trying to argue, just understand the reasoning, and hope that in the future I can speak in productive terms, should the subject come up. Thank you both so much for your posts.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Did the Pope lie?.

If not, how did he not talk about Christ?

I never said he lied. we are against abortion not because a mass of cells has the right to develop and be born. we are against abortion because God took flesh to Himself and deified humanity, to include every stage in the womb.

and I said it was what my professor said, whom I trust.

and I said not really mention Christ, which is not the same as not talking about Him.
 
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Shieldmaiden4Christ

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For what it's worth, I think homosexual tendencies are just part of the nature of the fall. God certainly doesn't approve of that; he's made one way to help us reconcile it. The way that reconciliation manifests is different from person to person (in other words, how we deal with our sinful nature is different from person to person.) Squabbling over the word "gay" is just frivolous and unnecessary; it's just an adjective to describe a certain state of being.
 
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rusmeister

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If I may?

I don't want to just intrude here, but I wonder if I understand the disagreement properly?

I take this use of language to mean ...

If one "is gay" then that implies that this is basically how God created that person to be, how they are? Thus either homosexual sex must be acceptable to God, or else God must have made a mistake with those persons. Is that the reasoning? I remember a time before such words too ...

However, if we say that a person has same-sex attraction, then they are a person, and their passions lean in that direction. People can likewise have desires/attractions in many different directions - some more fully entrenched, some less. Some socially acceptable and good, some clearly not. I hope that I don't need to go into details, but people can have a desire for other humans based on sex, on age, on race, on physical type, or on any number of variables. People can also have desires for non-humans and inanimate objects.

Does God create a person to be attracted to these, or are they a result of our socialization or some other factor of human experience, or of demonic influence and temptation? Or some combination?

To say that a person is same-sex attracted merely describes the state of that person. It may be quite a permanent feature of who that person is, just as it may be a permanent feature of a person to be attracted primarily to the opposite sex of a particular race, or conquests outside of marriage, or any number of inclinations. Some of these find acceptable outlets (a monogamous relationship with the opposite sex within marriage) but the rest do not, and we see those as a cross to be borne by the person who has a desire which cannot be legitimately satisfied. (At least we recognize temptation to be a cross.)

Do I understand the issue? Forgive me again for intruding ...
I think you do understand. I wish everyone did.
 
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gzt

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If one "is gay" then that implies that this is basically how God created that person to be, how they are? Thus either homosexual sex must be acceptable to God, or else God must have made a mistake with those persons. Is that the reasoning? I remember a time before such words too ...

I wish everyone understood how wrong the position was. First, saying somebody "is gay" implies nothing of the sort. That's it. The argument is over. All of our experience of sexuality after the Fall is through the lens of the Fall, there was no concupiscence before the Fall. So trying to make a statement about the experience of concupiscence in any way about "how God made us" is wrong. I can say I am X or Y without implying that God made me that way. And, by the way, "being gay" is not a sin any more than "being straight" is a virtue. The Church's teaching is that lust is a sin and homosexual activity are sins. That's not about "being gay" or "being straight" - those are morally neutral. If you read the ascetic literature, you have a distinction between assault from logismoi and interaction, consent, defeat, passion. No sin is committed until the third (consent). When people apply labels to themselves, it's generally about what logismoi assault them, not about what sins they are committing.
 
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fat wee robin

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Hmmmmmmm. I will need to think on this some more then. I see your point. And maybe I'm not even coming at it from the right basis in the first place (the reason why "I am x" is a problem).

What I can say is that it seems better, from my point of view, to say "I struggle with x-sin" than to say "I am an x-sinner" as if it is part of my essential being. To say "I struggle with telling lies" instead of saying "I am a liar". It seems not only more accurate, but also more HOPEFUL, as well as being a better description of the position I find myself in and how I deal with it.

To be honest, if that were a particular struggle of mine, I *think* I would much more rather say "I struggle with same-sex attraction" than I would want to say "I am gay". At least if I take the position of the Orthodox Church to understand that this particular situation is the improper bent of human passions, and that God does not endorse it.

(If I AM trying to prove somehow that God endorses it, and looking for a way to justify my actions, I would in that case want to say "I am a liar" or "I am gay".)

Maybe I am making some errors in here, but I'm really trying to understand, and this is how it makes sense to me. I'm not trying to argue, just understand the reasoning, and hope that in the future I can speak in productive terms, should the subject come up. Thank you both so much for your posts.
And very good reasoning it is too .:idea::amen:
 
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Cappadocious

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Yes, as St. Paul famously said: "Be not deceived: neither those who indulge their fornication-predilections, nor those who indulge their idolatry-predilections, nor those who indulge their adultery-predelictions, nor those who indulge their anal sex-receiver-predilections, nor same-sex attracted-predilections..."

Wait... he didn't talk that way, because this would have been ridiculous. On rhetorical grounds alone the great orator would never have sullied himself with such nonsense.
 
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fat wee robin

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I wish everyone understood how wrong the position was. First, saying somebody "is gay" implies nothing of the sort. That's it. The argument is over. All of our experience of sexuality after the Fall is through the lens of the Fall, there was no concupiscence before the Fall. So trying to make a statement about the experience of concupiscence in any way about "how God made us" is wrong. I can say I am X or Y without implying that God made me that way. And, by the way, "being gay" is not a sin any more than "being straight" is a virtue. The Church's teaching is that lust is a sin and homosexual activity are sins. That's not about "being gay" or "being straight" - those are morally neutral. If you read the ascetic literature, you have a distinction between assault from logismoi and interaction, consent, defeat, passion. No sin is committed until the third (consent). When people apply labels to themselves, it's generally about what logismoi assault them, not about what sins they are committing.
I don't entirely agree with this, as you are assuming 'sin' begins with the 'action ' of sinning ,but I believe that some people are naturally more innocent than others ,that some carry in themselves, when they are born ,a tendancy to be evil ,while others have a tendency to good .It is innate, and it's denial is at the centre of a serious problem with christianity, as it has been taught .
 
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gzt

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And as such, I don't think we should police how people describe themselves and, accordingly, use their preferred terms within reason. It is absurd to say to somebody who is a Christian in good standing who has no interest in transgressing against chastity, "Excuse me, you should say you are same-sex attracted rather than say you are gay."
 
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Shieldmaiden4Christ

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I don't entirely agree with this, as you are assuming 'sin' begins with the 'action ' of sinning ,but I believe that some people are naturally more innocent than others ,that some carry in themselves, when they are born ,a tendancy to be evil ,while others have a tendency to good .It is innate, and it's denial is at the centre of a serious problem with christianity, as it has been taught .

I don't think this is a very good understanding of it.
 
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gzt

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I don't entirely agree with this, as you are assuming 'sin' begins with the 'action ' of sinning ,but I believe that some people are naturally more innocent than others ,that some carry in themselves, when they are born ,a tendancy to be evil ,while others have a tendency to good .It is innate, and it's denial is at the centre of a serious problem with christianity, as it has been taught .
Sin begins at consent, not at the assault or interaction with the thought. There are a few different ways of thinking about interacting with ideas and temptations to sin in the Fathers, but the outline I gave is pretty non-controversial in Eastern Christian thought even if some of the exact wordings and details may vary.
 
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buzuxi02

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I don't entirely agree with this, as you are assuming 'sin' begins with the 'action ' of sinning ,but I believe that some people are naturally more innocent than others ,that some carry in themselves, when they are born ,a tendancy to be evil ,while others have a tendency to good .It is innate, and it's denial is at the centre of a serious problem with christianity, as it has been taught .

It seems you may be describing the gnomic will. That inclination towards sin which varies from person to person
 
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Cappadocious

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Sin begins at consent, not at the assault or interaction with the thought.
Yet I would say that Συνδυασμός/coupling with sinful thoughts is still part of the sinful condition. It is in some sense sinful, if not bearing the guilt of outright sin. We discipline ourselves against doing it for a reason.
 
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gzt

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Definitely, you want to stay at the first tier and not get on the ladder, and it's not right to get on the ladder. But it's still not yet the point where the Lord Himself said you're committing adultery in your heart. You do want to get to the point where the thoughts are just like airplanes flying far above your head...
 
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It would seem as if conservative/republican-american/protestantism is being conflated with Orthodoxy when one doesn't seem to understand or accept that you can say he/she is "gay" without implying that they are actively engaging in that lifestyle, or are primarily identifying as one.

All our experiences are affected by the Fall.
 
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