Why is homosexuality the one subject that may be too hot to handle?

JCFantasy23 · Sep 29, 2015

Ohorseman said:
Sister, you quoted his comment and responded to it as if I really said that... but I did NOT. Go to the source. Quote me... not him. Otherwise, you unintentionally reinforce and participate in his "bearing false witness against thy neighbor". But... you can't quote me... because it's not there. But I know you did not mean it that way and no offense taken. I am just making a point.

You're right, I was just making a general statement on the matter, not based on a post you wrote. I regularly ramble on the forums on topics and jump in the middle of discussions (and offline too, by the way

)

Ohorseman · Sep 29, 2015

I understand. Thanks!

circuitrider · Sep 30, 2015

AntoineL said:
Fence-riders, lukewarm, compromisers, cowards, world conformers. .

So why do non-Wesleyan Christians drop into this forum just to insult people? Is that what you think Jesus would as you to do? "Cowards" really?

There is nothing "lukewarm" about taking a stand. The Biblical text suggests that the water should be hot or cold but not lukewarm. That tells me that there isn't always just one answer to a question. You may believe hot and I may believe cold and refreshing. But that doesn't make either of us lukewarm or cowards.

And as to cowards, I think it takes a good deal of bravery for some people to take a stand that others don't agree with given that when you stand up for LGBTQ people in much of the church you almost always get called names, get attacked and get vilified.

Ohorseman · Sep 30, 2015

AntoineL said:
This is why:
Jude
"17But you, my dear friends, must remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ predicted. 18They told you that in the last times there would be scoffers whose purpose in life is to satisfy their ungodly desires. 19These people are the ones who are creating divisions among you. They follow their natural instincts because they do not have God’s Spirit in them."

This topic like other few topics like it, divides people because of the world we live in. As the times go by people will seek to compromise the truth because it is "politically incorrect", and the desires of the flesh will be deemed far more "correct" instead of sacrifice. The laodicean era.

Fence-riders, lukewarm, compromisers, cowards, world conformers. It is far more important to this crowd, to obey whats "politically correct "instead of obeying what is right with God. The fear of man is strongly more common instead of the fear of God. People are bowing down to agendas willing to change their own bible just to not "offend" anyone's delicate little feelings.

Especially in the western world, its all about pleasure,and narcissism against God and morality is glorified.

"do whatever you want so tell others to mind their own business and go away"

Moral relativism

Bizarre over emphasis on"freedom"/pushing the limit

YOLO mentality

World conformers take this and form their own doctrine with it.Christians who side with God as a result will fight back against this.

Most importantly, this issue is divisive because people do not understand what Christ actually came to do. Jesus never came to rationalize and encourage immorality. Jesus never said that being a Christian would be easy.

He told us to pick up our own cross and follow him. SACRIFICE. For some people it may be literally almost "everything" in their "old life". For some, it may seem like a portion of their life.

The LGBT community isn't exempt from this. Unfortunately, world conforming, fence-riding, lukewarm, churches tell them what they want to hear and lead them astray.

I previously missed your post and just now read it. Well said, sister. Thank you for your input.

Ada Lovelace · Oct 1, 2015

circuitrider said:
Do you all have any thoughts as to why homosexuality is the one topic that where the discussion is so contentious that we are voting on if we can talk about it or not?

There are a lot of hot button social issues that we also may disagree on such as abortion, gun control/rights, immigration, euthanasia, stem cell research, issues related to welfare and poverty, war and peace, etc. But for some reason this one issue is the only one that some forums here may decide is too hot to handle.

What do you think?

Homosexuality isn't a contentious subject at the Methodist church I'm attending. The passion that is voiced is most often distress at how Christians have treated gay people, and in defense of the hermeneutical justifications for supporting it. They aren't defending it to other members; they're simply expressing it aloud. We have a rainbow flag hanging outside, and I'm fairly certain weddings for same sex couples are officiated there (though I only just began attending this church when I moved here for college a few weeks ago, so I'm not certain).

At home in LA I attend three different churches (Anglican and Presbyterian) because I'm involved in special ministries at them, and due to their locations, and they are all supportive of the LGBT community. I personally believe that Christ would be accepting of gay people based on my own reading of scripture and relationship with Him, and therefore wouldn't attend a church that ostracized them.

circuitrider · Oct 2, 2015

AntoineL, your logic is flawed. Just because the Bible mentions the value of heterosexual marriage and uses it as an illustration for the church doesn't make it a comment against same sex marriage, which was unknown to the New Testament authors. You don't write comments against practices you've never heard of.

You could just as easily infer that getting married for love is unBiblical since the marriages in the time the Bible was written were arranged marriages. But the Bible also makes no comment for or against getting married for love. So getting marriad without your marriage being arranged by your parents could also be seen as not following the Bible by your logic.

Also a string of quotes that you shouldn't follow the world or teach unwholesome teaching doesn't prove that teaching a positive view of same sex marriage is unwholesome or just following the culture. The Church has made a lot of changes in the last 2000 years that could easily be called an acommadation to culture from using pianos, organs and guitars in worship to translating the Bible into English, to allowing Christians to eat rare steak (forbidden by the counsel at Jerusalem) etc. etc.

All change is not following the culture or the world. The theological task of the Church is always to figure out which changes are right and which are wrong. But arguments from silence do not help you figure out those questions.

circuitrider · Oct 2, 2015

AntoineL said:
My logic isn't flawed at all. You are actually choosing to read God's truth through the eyes of a friend of the world. That right there is flawed to the bone.

And how do you come to that conclusion AntoineL, because I disagree with you?

Reading the Bible in a way that gets the Bible to say things that it doesn't actually say isn't reading a Bible as a friend of the Church that is for sure.

You've not yet quoted a scripture that proves your position. Nor are you taking into account that sincere Christians and differing Christian denominations have different opinions on what the Bible says on the issue of same sex marriage. That includes trained pastors and theologians who have different views on the subject as well.

So you got to do better than "your worldy because you disagree with my theology." And you have to do better than "your worldy because you disagree with what the church (or my church) has taught in the past." Because churches have changed their teaching on race, inter-racial marriage, and the role of women just to name a few.

circuitrider · Oct 2, 2015

AntioneL, you need a few more Bible classes or something.

There are scriptures that you can use to argue against homosexuality. You just haven't used one yet. You can't argue from the silence of a text. That's Biblical interpretation 101.

It would be like your father saying, "I think cars are cool" and inferring from that that he gave you permission to drive his car when he didn't say one way or another.

A statement in the Bible that says straight marriage is a good illustration for the church doesn't prove that the same author has expressed an opinion on other forms of marriage one way or another.

Again, there are texts you can use to argue your point. You've just did not picked one that works. I can't do it for you. Find a text that actually talks about homosexuality and then maybe we can discuss it. So far you haven't quoted any of those texts.

Ada Lovelace · Oct 2, 2015

@AntoineL - are you Methodist or attending a Methodist church and in harmony with their beliefs?

The rainbow is by God. It was a heart-mesmerizingly beautiful sight to see in the sky over Los Angeles after the June 26 SCOTUS decision following an incredibly rare summer rain.

I disagree with your logic and your hermeneutical beliefs about Scripture, but from the vibe of your posts I don't see that engaging in depth would really be fruitful. You are absolutely welcome to not attend a church that is LGBT friendly, and I'm welcome to keep going to the church where I've met wonderful, wise, committed Christians. Peace out.

RomansFiveEight · Oct 2, 2015

Logical fallacies everywhere! Duck!

Just because something is listed in the Bible, doesn't mean that's the only thing that can exist. Lots of things exist outside of what is described in the Bible. Actually, marriage is a brilliant example because while heterosexual marriage is described in the Bible; the modern notion of getting married in a church, having communal property, etc. is not. Why is there no outrage that the church is marrying people when it wasn't for the first few hundred years after Christ?

The only examples of homosexuality are in reference to abuse and rape; there's no language about committed, monogamous homosexual relationships.

The Bible is NOT clear on the issue of human sexuality, no matter how apt someone is at proof-texting the same old texts and re-hashing those same old arguments again and again and again.

BryanW92 · Oct 2, 2015

RomansFiveEight said:
Logical fallacies everywhere! Duck!

Just because something is listed in the Bible, doesn't mean that's the only thing that can exist. Lots of things exist outside of what is described in the Bible. Actually, marriage is a brilliant example because while heterosexual marriage is described in the Bible; the modern notion of getting married in a church, having communal property, etc. is not. Why is there no outrage that the church is marrying people when it wasn't for the first few hundred years after Christ?

The only examples of homosexuality are in reference to abuse and rape; there's no language about committed, monogamous homosexual relationships.

The Bible is NOT clear on the issue of human sexuality, no matter how apt someone is at proof-texting the same old texts and re-hashing those same old arguments again and again and again.

So, is 3-D CGI internet inappropriate content OK because no humans were filmed and it is something that is not specifically mentioned in the bible?

RomansFiveEight · Oct 2, 2015

BryanW92 said:
So, is 3-D CGI internet inappropriate content OK because no humans were filmed and it is something that is not specifically mentioned in the bible?

Don't go the other way with this and open your mind to a world that isn't painfully simple.

My point is, stop using silly simplistic answers and logical fallacies. My point about homosexuality being mentioned only in cases of rape and abuse wasn't to suggest it's 'okay', but also not that it's 'forbidden', my point was to illustrate that the issue is complex. Not super-simple. We can always proof-text and super simplify things until the cows come home and come up with all kinds of catchy "gotchas". Trust me Bryan, you are NOT the first person to say "Oh, homosexuality is okay, EVERYTHING is okay!". My point was that an argument could be articulated in support of homosexuality just as well as one can be articulated against it and we shouldn't put our finger in our ears and say "lalala I can't hear you here's my 4 verses and 6 one-liners that proves everything!"

Like the old lady in the Geico commercial says, "That's not how this works".

BryanW92 · Oct 2, 2015

RomansFiveEight said:
Don't go the other way with this and open your mind to a world that is painfully simple.

My point is, stop using silly simplistic answers and logical fallacies. My point about homosexuality being mentioned only in cases of rape and abuse wasn't to suggest it's 'okay', but also not that it's 'forbidden', my point was to illustrate that the issue is complex. Not super-simple. We can always proof-text and super simplify things until the cows come home and come up with all kinds of catchy "gotchas". Trust me Bryan, you are NOT the first person to say "Oh, homosexuality is okay, EVERYTHING is okay!". My point was that an argument could be articulated in support of homosexuality just as well as one can be articulated against it and we shouldn't put our finger in our ears and say "lalala I can't hear you here's my 4 verses and 6 one-liners that proves everything!"

Like the old lady in the Geico commercial says, "That's not how this works".

But, the folks on your side of the discussion oversimplify too. You take the people who say that gays have no business being in a church and declare that everyone who is not in favor of full inclusion to the point of allowing gays to become ordained clergy are a part of the "no gays, no way" group. Personally, I think they belong in the church just as all the other sinners belong. I have a problem with their PRIDE in their sin, but they can deal with that through Christ. I don't even care if they get married. I'm not in favor, but I don't fight it. But, I do draw the line at an openly homosexual pastor or elder. So, let's stop oversimplifying, OK?

Ohorseman · Oct 2, 2015

BryanW92 said:

So, is 3-D CGI internet inappropriate content OK because no humans were filmed and it is something that is not specifically mentioned in the bible?

Click to expand...

Good point. They like to dodge those.

“Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.”

The word "define" means: a.) To state the precise meaning of. b). To describe the nature or basic qualities. Christ does not define marriage by stating the things that it is not. Nor do we define "squirrel" by stating all the things that a squirrel is not. I suppose if people really, really, really wanted to they could even make the definition of squirrel complicated... but it's not.

RomansFiveEight said:

Logical fallacies everywhere! Duck!

Click to expand...

Yeah... and here are but a few that advocates of homosexuality are tossing around like it's a grand fallacy party!!!

Argument from silence (argumentum ex silentio) – where the conclusion is based on the absence of evidence, rather than the existence of evidence.

Argument from repetition (argumentum ad infinitum) – signifies that it has been discussed extensively until nobody cares to discuss it anymore.

shifting the) Burden of proof (see – onus probandi) – I need not prove my claim, you must prove it is false.

Argument to moderation (false compromise, middle ground, fallacy of the mean, argumentum ad temperantiam) – assuming that the compromise between two positions is always correct.

I should not forget circuitrider's favorite one here:

Argumentum ad hominem – the evasion of the actual topic by directing an attack at your opponent.

Actually, its useless to duck because you get hit with these if you come here.

circuitrider · Oct 3, 2015

Give that you don't believe in God Didymus, on what do you base your idea that homosexuality is right nor wrong beyond an undefined bigotry? The above post is frankly just insulting.

Blue Wren · Oct 5, 2015

AntoineL said:
Also, I forgot to mention that you pretty much proved my point. You resort to rationalization in order to defend your position.I mentioned this earlier--even the bible mentions this

This is not actually about "whose better than who"--This is about the truth.

There's a difference, between rationalization, and rational arguments.

lupusFati · Oct 5, 2015

To be honest, I've never asked a single Christian to accept my sexuality unconditionally. All I want is to be treated as another person. But sadly this is the most difficult thing to ask of Christians, lately. At least, as far as I have noticed.

circuitrider · Oct 5, 2015

AntoineL, You aren't a Methodist or Nazarene but you, like quite a few others, in violation of forum rules think you have the all knowing answers to the questions of scripture. You poo poo education and theological training and proclaim your own interpretation as the only right one while apparently having no idea that you are in many ways disagreeing with the doctrine of this forum for Methodists, Nazarenes and other Wesleyan Christians.

I've also added you to my ignore list. My new personal policy is that when non-Wesleyan Christians think that they can overrun the forum rules in order to jump in here and tell Methodists what is wrong with them I'm just going to add them to my ignore list. The beauty of doing so is that I no longer see your posts at all.

Isn't forum software great? ;-)

Now back to discussing Wesleyan theology with other Wesleyans as this forum is supposed to be used.

Blue Wren · Oct 5, 2015

circuitrider said:
AntoineL, You aren't a Methodist or Nazarene but you, like quite a few others, in violation of forum rules think you have the all knowing answers to the questions of scripture. You poo poo education and theological training and proclaim your own interpretation as the only right one while apparently having no idea that you are in many ways disagreeing with the doctrine of this forum for Methodists, Nazarenes and other Wesleyan Christians.

I've also added you to my ignore list. My new personal policy is that when non-Wesleyan Christians think that they can overrun the forum rules in order to jump in here and tell Methodists what is wrong with them I'm just going to add them to my ignore list. The beauty of doing so is that I no longer see your posts at all.

Isn't forum software great? ;-)

Now back to discussing Wesleyan theology with other Wesleyans as this forum is supposed to be used.

That is wise. I respect, educated perspectives, that are different from mine, and from people, who are wanting to have a civilised dialogue. That's not the case with this person.

circuitrider · Oct 5, 2015

Blue Wren said:
That is wise. I respect, educated perspectives, that are different from mine, and from people, who are wanting to have a civilised dialogue. That's not the case with this person.

I also enjoy other perspectives. But I expect people to to say more than "I'm right and following the Bible and you aren't." That just doesn't give any room for discussing differences.

Why is homosexuality the one subject that may be too hot to handle?

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