(Moved Challenging ALL hell believers about the afterlife. If you're a true believer, answer this.

Dardan said:

The questions I asked were only meant in the form of "yes or no" "A or B" ETC.
You did not do that. Please try again, if you want. If you don't want to answer how it was meant to be, then please don't do it.

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I did answer them, I even answered with yes and no at least most of them, then I proceeded to show you why the questions are off topic for the OP premise. So point out specifically which ones I didn't answer yes or no with added explanation of why they are off topic....see, the forum rules prohibit us getting off topic, yet you insist on trying to take us there with the questions you are asking. Ask relevant questions so that we are challenged in our ideas and beliefs rather than irrelevant questions that aim to take us off topic.

For example, ask questions like....what kind of fire burns but does not consume? What form would be exposed to fire but not consumed? Why isn't the body and soul of man separate deaths? If the second death or the spiritual death of man is separation from God, what is life and how does that life happen and when does it happen? Why is life preferred over death? Why would God use the same "jail" for mankind as He does for satan and the false prophets? Etc. These are questions that keep us on topic...you could also ask some hard questions about why the consequence of sin is death? Why men don't want their sins exposed? Why they don't want to accept life? Why do men believe lies? and dozens more questions that are on topic...shall I help you with valid questions that are on topic?

We go to hell for rejecting Christ as our savior. If we did not have the opportunity to reject Him then we do not go to hell. That being said, the Holy Spirit witnesses to each of us and calls us. If we reject that call we are accountable. So we are "with-out excuse". John 15: 22

Dardan said:

The questions were meant to be answered in the form of "yes or no" "A or B" ETC.
Please try again, if you want to. If you don't want to answer it in this format I laid out, please do not do it.

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see my previous comment, you are not telling me which ones you think I didn't answer, only that you didn't like me pointing out that the questions you are asking are off topic.

You mentioned sin and we should not do it.
I am using my life to not sin. Since I accepted Jesus(still confused on the Biblical view of him, and other aspects to Christianity and the lost teachings, etc.) Hopefully I will learn and know one day) I've stopped almost all my inappropriate contentography usage, I try to not lust, I try to be more loving and not as mad, I've tried to stop judging others and calling others mean names, and in general, my lifestyle and attitude is different.

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This...this right here....this is the problem! You don't know who Jesus is, or the teachings of scripture but you ask questions based on what you want the answers to be.

Let's say this another way and see if it helps. Let's say that I am a scientist, I have a theory that I want to test...let's say, a theory about how vinegar mixes in with water. I call you in to help me experiment with vinegar and water and see if my theory is correct. The only problem is that instead of experimenting with vinegar and water, you want to experiment with milk and cheese. So you run your tests and then proclaim that vinegar and water mix well together because you experimented and found out that they did. What would your test be based on since you tested milk and cheese? Nothing, right? Right, you would just be testing some random theory and attributing it to the discussion at hand.

that is what you are doing here about God and His hell. You have in your mind what you think hell must be like based on things you admit yourself that you do not understand. When we tell you that your version or understanding of hell is not the same as God's version of hell, you ignore our correction to insist that your version is evil. I would agree, man's version of hell, heaven, sin, forgiveness, etc. is always evil because as scripture says, "the thoughts of a man's heart is evil continually" that is why we need to test God's hell to see what it tells us, rather than testing your milk and cheese ideas and attributing them to God's vinegar and water.

Unless or until you grasp this contradiction that you keep presenting and correct it, you will always be right, your version of hell and God will never mix because in your version, you can keep changing truths into lies to come to the conclusions you want to come to. That is unfair and disturbing to say the least, but is all too common with people who are afraid to know the truth. So, the question that remains unanswered, is being asked of you...are you ready and willing to learn about God's hell and disregard your version of hell, or are you going to remain in your deception and insist on knowing more than God about what God thinks, does, knows, is? It's an either or question....a) you will choose to remain in your delusions and deceptions about the hell you want it to be or b) you are willing to learn about the hell God says it is and why He uses it for the unbelievers? Which do you choose?

With all this said, even if I one day learn to not sin at all, which I think Jesus wants us to do(to beat sin), I will still believe hell in the mainstream idea is not real.

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You do realize that the goal of Jesus is not to be sin free, right? Being sin free is a byproduct of salvation not the goal of it.

Dardan said:

That was pretty informative on how hell and sin came to be, and the story. Certainly educational and helpful, but it doesn't answer the question to why God has to kill even one soul, whether in fire or to remove it from life.
As I said before, it would be easier for God to say "you're forgiven", rather than kill the person in fire or whatever.

I suppose just ending the bad person's soul forever would be better than living in hell, it would make more sense too.
However, this should really be the last resort.
For example, the sinful person(let's say satan for example) would have to ADMIT they're sorry, repent for their sins, and accept God and Jesus.
I truly believe everyone will have this option.

If one is too prideful, to the point where they deny God who is offering you life with Him, then maybe you should be killed. As there's no going back from your last chance and you're too stubborb to accept.

ONLY THEN would it make sense for you to die forever, I think. No hell, just death, gone forever.
I think everyone will end up saying sorry to God though.

Didn't Jesus say "even the tax collectors will enherit the kingdom of God BEFORE you"(me paraphrasing of course)
"Before" you seems to indicate that you're given many chances, perhaps lifetimes on Earth, or maybe chances God gives you.

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That Matt passage (21:31) seems to be using 'before you' as a literal "before your very eyes" type of thing.
I do think that every passing day is a chance to be saved.

And while I'm not too sure of the specifics of what goes on in Hell.
It is interesting to think about the Nuremberg Trials after World War 2 and how a number of Nazis were put to death even though they may not have been completely aware of what was going on, or even if they were repentant. The idea of consequence is very alive today. Imagine what the West would have done with Hitler, even if he begged and pleaded for mercy, would anyone be willing to give him it?

God is just, it is part of his nature. Exodus 34:6-7 when He reveals himself to Moses even comments that he doesn't let the guilty go free, but punishes them to the 3rd & 4th generation.
Part of repeating the history is to show that God is just and punishes the unjust and wicked people because in some ways it is a consequence of their actions. but his judgement is always coupled with his mercy. Look at Jonah and his grudging God for forgiving Nineveh, or Ahab repenting and God delaying judgement on his house. But both Nineveh (in Nahum) and Ahab (later with Micaiah-ben-Imlah) prophecy judgement on them for their wickedness.

We don't really have an accurate understanding of hell, but it seems that the punishment there fits the crime (so to speak), that people aren't punished above what they deserve, but also no less than they deserve.

...

Since the OP appears to have abandoned his thread there does not seem to be much point in continuing but my 2 cents. The Jews, in Israel before and during the time of Jesus believed in a place of eternal, unending, fiery torment and they called it both Gehinnom/Gehenna and Sheol. When Jesus taught about,

These teachings reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Heb 10:28-31.


Jesus used the word death 17 times in the gospels and if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died, young, old, good, bad, and knew that it was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them.

Jesus knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, when Jesus taught about man’s eternal fate, such as eternal punishment, He would have corrected them. Jesus did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell was correct. Here is historical evidence to support this.



Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.

It seems you don't like the "rules" God has set out in His Word. You don't accept that a loving God could punish us or anyone for that matter or even have the right to. Let's turn it around....

Imagine , if you will an island. This island is better then Disneyland. There is free food. Free mansions. Lots of great and beautiful things. The owner of this mansion, who also built this mansion, has given you the opportunity to come. All you have to do is get there by his son's boating company. It's a free gift. Realize that the boating company means a lot to the owner. His son died for the boating company, so that you could have the opportunity to come to his island. Does the owner have the "right " to make the rules? Of course he does. What if someone shows up another way, will he let him in? No, why should he? His son gave his life! He can require what he wants for entry. Will some shake their fists at him? Possibly , but they had every opportunity to come.

It's the same with God. The Father sent the Son to die for us, for everyone, so we could come to the island or heaven. If we shake our fists at Him and say "it's not fair"! Well was it "fair" to Jesus? He gave His life for us. He died and bled for us and He had done no wrongs, but because we needed a Savior He came. Because He loves us. If we don't love Him enough to follow His one requirement, why should He let us in? It is a privilege, not a right.

Here's another one trying to use human logic to figure out God, His plans, and His purposes. This effort is doomed to fail.

Job8 said:

Here's another one trying to use human logic to figure out God, His plans, and His purposes. This effort is doomed to fail.

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Why Jesus used this method throughout the bible with His parables and it proved a good way to describe things to get His message across.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parables_of_Jesus

Dardan said:

I'm going to give you only 5 cases of people that would be TRAPPED if hell was really a place for many people to go.

God does not TRAP people.

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Hell is not a trap in eternal torment. Hell is a place where sin and death is destroyed forever.

Does making mistakes and not comprehending the deeper meaning of life and sin, send you to hell for all eternity? Hell for eternity? Just because you didn't understand?

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Yes.

Not everyone is capable of understanding.

*Though seeing, they do not see; and though hearing, they do not hear or understand. In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: "You will be ever hearing but never understanding; and you will be ever seeing but never perceiving."* -- (Luke 8:13-14).

There are some people who lack the capacity to hear and understand despite the efforts of Jesus to save them.

Is your eternal future dependent on where you're born and at what time? Do you go to hell because you were born at the wrong place, in the wrong time?

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Yes.

There is no wrong place or wrong time, only wrong beliefs. A wrong belief leads to hell, no matter what the place or time.

*For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities — His eternal power and divine nature — have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.* -- (Rom 1:20).

God's eternal power and divine nature are clearly seen in any place at any time, so that men are without excuse.

Do you go to hell because you were brainwashed and deceived to be in a religion against your will? You came into the world, got brainwashed, now you go to hell?

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Yes.

The Scribes and Pharisees were brainwashed and they also brainwashed many people, making them children of hell.

*"Woe to you, Scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are."* -- (Matt 23:15).

Do you go to hell because you made a mistake?

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Yes.

Many Jews mistook Jesus to be a mere man, and not the Son of God, and they rejected His offer of salvation as a result.

*Jesus said to them, "Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?" The Jews answered Him, saying, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, because You, a mere man, claim to be God."* -- (John 10:32-33).

Do you go to hell because you weren't wise enough to understand what's truth?

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Yes.

Not everyone is capable of understanding what's truth.

*Though seeing, they do not see; and though hearing, they do not hear or understand. In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: "You will be ever hearing but never understanding; and you will be ever seeing but never perceiving."* -- (Luke 8:13-14).

Do you go to hell for not really knowing what to believe?

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Yes.

Ignorance is no excuse.

*For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities — His eternal power and divine nature — have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.* -- (Rom 1:20).

God has been revealing Himself from the beginning of creation. It's not His fault if we don't recognize Him. That's our fault.

In other words, do you go to hell based on how healthy or unhealthy you are in the brain and body?

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No. You go to hell based on how healthy or unhealthy you are in spirit and soul.

*Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.* -- (Matt 10:28).

dardan said:

to the OP and any all supporting that view or the various unorthodox represented here in this thread

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I do not agree the OP represents a refute of anything approaching a mainstream orthodox view of Hell, at least not a properly formed Protestant or Catholic one. So it is difficult when someone is fighting against a windmill and one realizes they think the windmill is something other than it is. Does one just pretend and join them in the fight?

If a Christian appears to have put a lot of effort in basing their faith (or maybe justifying is a better word), on standing in battle against this threatening windmill, then anyone trying to take an opposing position is viewed as an enemy to that faith. I do agree with the thought expressed that the idea of a loved one burning in Hell eternally is extremely repulsive. To me it is equally repulsive to take such thoughts to motivate one to use the idea of Hell as a hammer to hold over people's head in some sort of threatening tactic to "scare" people to the alter and "out of Hell" (and I have seen that done a lot in my lifetime). If we do anything of value with such thoughts I think we direct it on ourselves, that we might not live a life which could lead anyone anywhere but towards the light and away from Hell, including ourself.

Others here have defended a much more theologically sound version of the orthodox view of Hell than ones like we have expressed by the OP. Der Alter can always be counted on for that with lots of scripture and early Christian writings quoted, so I don't think I will add much to that here by throwing in my two cents. But I do think in trying to express a view and contrast it with an opposing view, it is best to be sure first that one really understands the opposing view and that it is not some grossly altered caricature of it that one is attempting to battle.

Not that one cannot find such caricatures out there any given Sunday or during rivals; just don't think that such manifestations represent sound theology and certainly not orthodox theology. The Churches of my childhood were well meaning in the regular attempts at scaring people to the alter, but I realized some time ago that the picture they painted of either/or was never based on sound theology.

I don't have the scripture with me but aren't there a couple of books open at the judgement? The book of life and another book. I think the other book contains what a person did with their life. Maybe that will separate the truly unrepentant and they go to hell of the second death which I believe is total annihilation.JJust my thoughts on the subject

Job8 said:

Here's another one trying to use human logic to figure out God, His plans, and His purposes. This effort is doomed to fail.

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It was a parable, Jesus used them all the time. Using something known and understood to reveal or clarify something not known or understood.

Dardan said:

I'm going to give you only 5 cases of people that would be TRAPPED if hell was really a place for many people to go. God does not TRAP people.
Please read these 5 very very small cases.(5 cases are simply a 2-3 minute read).

Case 1) You make mistakes, sinned, did drugs, and did many bad things, but you never understood, you made these mistakes and was not wise, but very misguided in life. Does making mistakes and not comprehending the deeper meaning of life and sin, send you to hell for all eternity? Hell for eternity? Just because you didn't understand?
Case 2) You were born in India, never knew or heard about Jesus. You might have heard of Him once, but you quickly wrote it off, as you were already in an "Indian" religion. OR you were born in an ATHEIST society where God was thought to be not real, you adapted this belief too. Is your eternal future dependent on where you're born and at what time? Do you go to hell because you were born at the wrong place, in the wrong time?
Case 3) You were born in Saudia Arabia and was FORCED to be a Muslim against your will, and if you change religions, you're killed. This is BRAINWASHING, and it starts just when you're a little kid. You're told Muslim is the true religion and you must kill non-believers, all this at the age of 5 years old.
Do you go to hell because you were brainwashed and deceived to be in a religion against your will? You came into the world, got brainwashed, now you go to hell?
Case 4) You're a regular person. Have a family, a job, and want to be happy in life. You never believed in God or was in a religion because you never really thought this type of stuff was real.
Do you go to hell because you made a mistake?
Do you go to hell because you weren't wise enough to understand what's truth?
Do you go to hell for not really knowing what to believe?
Case 5) MY PERSONAL CASE. I used to be very unhealthy, and an atheist. I started eating very healthy, taking nutritional supplements, and more. As I started getting healthy, I noticed I started becoming more spiritual. As I got more spiritual, I noticed that GOD IS REAL. I saw the truth because I started to be healthy and my brain worked better.
Now, if all it took for me to see the truth of God was to eat healthy, take supplements, and fix my brain and body, would I have gone to hell to burn forever if I never made these changes?

In other words, do you go to hell based on how healthy or unhealthy you are in the brain and body?


NOW.
As you see, these are 5 EXTREMELY common cases that have happened to most likely billions of people. Hell would not make sense for them to go, and Heaven might not make sense for them to go.
-To burn in hell for making a mistake makes no logical sense.
-To burn in hell for not understanding makes no logical sense.
-To burn in hell for being brainwashed makes no logical sense.
-To burn in hell for not being healthy in the brain makes no logical sense.
ETC...

So now what?
Could it be possible that there is Heaven, a type of hell we don't understand, and much, much more in our vast universe?

Perhaps God's judgement when we die is actually a "life review" where He Forgives us for not understanding, making mistakes, and all that, and he reviews our life and shows us what we did wrong and what we did right. KARMA IS NOT REAL, but perhaps some people come back to Earth to "try again" and find Christ, and become a better person, while others go to Heaven, and other various options.

WHAT MAKES MORE SENSE?
-To burn in hell forever?
Or for God to forgive you for everything you did and show you where you went wrong and how you can improve as a better soul?

AND, If hell is real, perhaps it's like a washing machine that cleans our sin and failures away, just as we put clothes in a washing machine to clean it up. Temporary we feel "hell", but we're soon out of it. I don't know, it's a theory.
Is hell real at all? Who knows.

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If you could find God in your own way without anyone teaching it to you then all those people could have the same personal revelation that you did. You think it was because you were eating right and became more spiritual. Sorry but you don't get credit for that because the truth is God showed Himself to you because you are one of His people. If they are one of His people He may show Himself to them on their deathbed and they will learn the truth then and be saved. In that case those around that person may think " Oh he didn't go to heaven because he never found the Lord" when in fact he actually DID find the Lord but couldn't tell anybody. See hell was never created for humans. It was created for Lucifer. As long as they didn't follow Lucifer they shouldn't go to that he'll with Lucifer...but the ones who knew about the Lord and chose Atheism most likely will get an afterlife of solitary existence without the presence of God or light or fire or love.....just emptiness like their faith reflects and that would be what they asked for so how could that be bad?

Jaxxi said:

If you could find God in your own way without anyone teaching it to you then all those people could have the same personal revelation that you did. You think it was because you were eating right and became more spiritual. Sorry but you don't get credit for that because the truth is God showed Himself to you because you are one of His people. If they are one of His people He may show Himself to them on their deathbed and they will learn the truth then and be saved. In that case those around that person may think " Oh he didn't go to heaven because he never found the Lord" when in fact he actually DID find the Lord but couldn't tell anybody. See hell was never created for humans. It was created for Lucifer. As long as they didn't follow Lucifer they shouldn't go to that he'll with Lucifer...but the ones who knew about the Lord and chose Atheism most likely will get an afterlife of solitary existence without the presence of God or light or fire or love.....just emptiness like their faith reflects and that would be what they asked for so how could that be bad?

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Good post Jaxxi !! Wow

mickiio said:

It seems you don't like the "rules" God has set out in His Word. You don't accept that a loving God could punish us or anyone for that matter or even have the right to. Let's turn it around....

Imagine , if you will an island. This island is better then Disneyland. There is free food. Free mansions. Lots of great and beautiful things. The owner of this mansion, who also built this mansion, has given you the opportunity to come. All you have to do is get there by his son's boating company. It's a free gift. Realize that the boating company means a lot to the owner. His son died for the boating company, so that you could have the opportunity to come to his island. Does the owner have the "right " to make the rules? Of course he does. What if someone shows up another way, will he let him in? No, why should he? His son gave his life! He can require what he wants for entry. Will some shake their fists at him? Possibly , but they had every opportunity to come.

It's the same with God. The Father sent the Son to die for us, for everyone, so we could come to the island or heaven. If we shake our fists at Him and say "it's not fair"! Well was it "fair" to Jesus? He gave His life for us. He died and bled for us and He had done no wrongs, but because we needed a Savior He came. Because He loves us. If we don't love Him enough to follow His one requirement, why should He let us in? It is a privilege, not a right.

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What happens if someone decides they don't want to go to the island? Does the owner then have the right to torture the person? It's seems that traditional theology says that there are two islands, if you don't go to Disney Island then you go to Torture Island. If I offered you a free vacation to Disneyland, I wouldn't get the right to punch you in the nose if you didn't want to go. It's not a free offer if you say "Come to my island. If you don't, I will torture you." I would think twice before going away with someone who tortures people.

Timothew said:

What happens if someone decides they don't want to go to the island? Does the owner then have the right to torture the person? It's seems that traditional theology says that there are two islands, if you don't go to Disney Island then you go to Torture Island. If I offered you a free vacation to Disneyland, I wouldn't get the right to punch you in the nose if you didn't want to go. It's not a free offer if you say "Come to my island. If you don't, I will torture you." I would think twice before going away with someone who tortures people.

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wow, your analogy is messed up!!!! First, God doesn't torture anyone. Second, the analogy would be more close to this scenario, using your island stuff.

There are two islands, one (using your analogy) is Disney the other is dry, barren, torturous. They are the only two places you can go, no other choice is available. Everyone gets on the boat to go to the island that is brutal and harsh because they don't know about the other choice, the Disney land choice. Along comes this guy and says, if you come with me, I will take you to Disney island, it is a wonderful place, in fact, kind of the opposite of where you are headed. Here are some pictures and videos to show you what it is like. I will even give you a taste of what it is like so you know that I am not just messing with your head. In fact, here, use my phone and call the King of Disney and find out if He wants you to come and that you can come if you just get in my boat instead of the boat you are already on which is taking you to this torturous land.

Some will doubt and not get on the boat to Disney, some will be afraid to follow, some will say, heck I'm already on this boat, I think I will stay. But in the end, it is the boat that you choose that will determine which island you will end up on. You are already on the boat that is headed to destruction, the question is, will you choose to change boats, to trust a different captan, or will you stay on your current path to an island that is horrible? That would be the more appropriate analogy than the stuff you tried to make it.