tradition vs. relationship

undead1 · Feb 27, 2003

Today at 04:27 AM Zoe Girl said this in Post #14 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=678492#post678492)

Speak in general, or speak as a minister?  Would you be objected to women giving their testamony in front of the church?  What about announcements or saying a prayer or singing a song?  What about different church activities, like youth group or children's church, are they allowed to speak there?

I mean the main congregation that meets regularly. I don't mean side meetings. And the tradition was that women said nothing. Kept silence. No testimony, no prayers, no nothing.

dnich163 · Feb 27, 2003

25th February 2003 at 12:31 AM Zoe Girl said this in Post #1

I'm sure this topic has already been discussed, but I'm a little overwhelmed how much there is on this site so...

I have a friend who is a Catholic, and I am a non-denominational Christian.  We respect each others beliefs, and have often talked about them. 

That shows that your friend is in dialogue about God. This is the interfaith interaction that Jesus essentially promotes; a choice of how we believe and act as a consequence of that belief.

When I was a teenager we were, again, talking about the differences between our beliefs when she said, "I think it is really sad how your religion has fallen away from practicing the traditions of the church." 

[B]The Catholic church sees and understands itself as the apostolic church that has a direct historical link to Jesus.

In this respect it can do no other. The only problem your friend raises here is that some of the traditions of the church has changed over the years. 

What I didn't think to say until later, after much thinking, was that I think it's sad how the Catholic church is so caught up in the traditional aspect of religion that it is hard to find and have a true relationship with God.

Your right in thinking hard and long about it. I think it will take me a lifetime. There are within the RC church some people that could be called Church people; there are others who would be called Kingdom people.

What we need is a balance.

It seems to me that this is one of the biggest differences between Catholics and non-denoms, Catholics focus on tradition, non-denoms focus on relationship.  Of course I know that there are exceptions on each side, but I was wondering what everyone's thoughts are?

The highest relationship is the one with Jesus. This is why the eucharist is central in the RC mass.

This relationship with Jesus actually necessitates a relationship with the "other", and that means essentially the person standing infront of you.

(when I say non-denom, I mean born again Bible based Christians, not people who accept all denominations [inter-denom]) [/B]

For me there is little difference between the "denoms", all of humanity deserves to be treated the same.

David

Zoe Girl · Feb 27, 2003

Today at 05:46 PM dnich163 said this in Post #22

For me there is little difference between the "denoms", all of humanity deserves to be treated the same.

David

But this isn't about how humans are treated.  It's about how humans treat God.  Do we do lots of things for Him, or do we spend time with Him?

Would you prefer to have a friend who tried to "buy" your friendship with lots of gifts, or would you prefer to have a friend who comes straight to you and talks directly to you, realizing that the "gifts" are just trivial anyway, and it's the personal one on one time that counts toward the relationship?

Job_38 · Feb 27, 2003

Yesterday at 11:30 PM fragmentsofdreams said this in Post #20

For example, contained within the Mass is two thousand years of reflection on the presence of Christ and our relation with each other as members of the Body of Christ, starting with the Apostles and continuing to this day. The Catholic Church gives us the opportunity to tap into this by offering daily and Sunday Masses.

 Christ is the one who gives me that.

brewmama · Feb 27, 2003

Yesterday at 11:57 PM Zoe Girl said this in Post #23

But this isn't about how humans are treated.  It's about how humans treat God.  Do we do lots of things for Him, or do we spend time with Him?

Would you prefer to have a friend who tried to "buy" your friendship with lots of gifts, or would you prefer to have a friend who comes straight to you and talks directly to you, realizing that the "gifts" are just trivial anyway, and it's the personal one on one time that counts toward the relationship?

I am in the Orthodox Church, and we have a liturgy also, in which the Eucharist is central. I cannot imagine worship that is not liturgical to be very connecting to God. The liturgy (which of course was practiced by the earliest churches) actually requires something of you, some participation. I look forward to it every week. I pine for it even. I love repeating prayers that Christians have prayed for thousands of years, and to know that I am connected to those worshiping in Heaven. I'm glad you guys get something out of Prot. churches, but for me there is no comparison. I can see why some major Protestants just quit going to church, and feel that Bible study is enough (my fundamentalist sister in law being one, and I heard that about Billy Graham also.)

Also, I think that "right worship" is quite crucial to maintaining right doctrine. I'm sure it's more important than you may think, and not just some paltry "gifts" that somehow may offend God.

dnich163 · Feb 28, 2003

Yesterday at 11:57 PM Zoe Girl said this in Post #23

But this isn't about how humans are treated.  It's about how humans treat God.  Do we do lots of things for Him, or do we spend time with Him?

Hi Zoe,

I think if you check back on my post I actually say that the highest relationship we can have is the one with God; this is why the Eucharist is central to the RC Church and the celebration of mass.

I would also suggest that how we treat others is essentially inclusive about how we treat God, especially if "we" are all part of the creation of God.

My understanding of the message Jesus came to give us was just that; the greatest commandment is to love the lord your God etc, and the 2nd is nearly as important in that we love our neighbour as ourselves.

Who is my neighbour?

The person in front of me is what Mother Teresa would reply.

David

JillLars · Feb 28, 2003

There has to be a balance between the relationship and the tradition. I went to my brother's confirmation last night because I am going to be his sponsor. The leader of the church education program began to read a prayer. This was a traditional prayer, it was 3 pages long and used language that most of the highschoolers in the room would never use...so all of us went on for 15 minutes reading this extremely long prayer, and if you ask me, I couldn't tell you what it was about...as sad as that is...it makes me sad that some people think its better to pray a 3 page prayer that no one knows what it means when I simple, hey God thanks for bringing us all here tonight would work just fine.

fragmentsofdreams · Feb 28, 2003

Yesterday at 06:37 PM Job_38 said this in Post #24 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=680320#post680320)

 Christ is the one who gives me that.

So you have never taken any spiritual guidence or direction from any person other than Christ in your entire life?

Zoe Girl · Feb 28, 2003

Today at 03:10 AM JillLars said this in Post #27

There has to be a balance between the relationship and the tradition. I went to my brother's confirmation last night because I am going to be his sponsor. The leader of the church education program began to read a prayer. This was a traditional prayer, it was 3 pages long and used language that most of the highschoolers in the room would never use...so all of us went on for 15 minutes reading this extremely long prayer, and if you ask me, I couldn't tell you what it was about...as sad as that is...it makes me sad that some people think its better to pray a 3 page prayer that no one knows what it means when I simple, hey God thanks for bringing us all here tonight would work just fine.

That is a really good point, and one of the things I was getting at.  A prayer is sincere when it is your own words.  When it comes to certain denoms reciting The Lord's Prayer over and over again (I have nothing against this prayer, it is the word of God), it seems to me that it isn't sincere, just ritual.  The Bible says to "pray then in this way..." not to "pray this exact prayer over and over again...".  I believe that "pray then in this way" means that we are to use that prayer as an example for how to pray, then apply it to our own lives and pray with our own words.

I'm not saying that someone who is reciting the Lord's Prayer isn't being sincere, as it is scripture and we should read, memorize and speak scripture, I'm just saying that when we do something like that repetitiously because it is a ritual, it loses it's meaning, and it contributes to making a relationship with God harder to achieve.

fragmentsofdreams · Feb 28, 2003

Today at 04:00 PM Zoe Girl said this in Post #29 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=682211#post682211)

That is a really good point, and one of the things I was getting at.  A prayer is sincere when it is your own words.  When it comes to certain denoms reciting The Lord's Prayer over and over again (I have nothing against this prayer, it is the word of God), it seems to me that it isn't sincere, just ritual.  The Bible says to "pray then in this way..." not to "pray this exact prayer over and over again...".  I believe that "pray then in this way" means that we are to use that prayer as an example for how to pray, then apply it to our own lives and pray with our own words.

I'm not saying that someone who is reciting the Lord's Prayer isn't being sincere, as it is scripture and we should read, memorize and speak scripture, I'm just saying that when we do something like that repetitiously because it is a ritual, it loses it's meaning, and it contributes to making a relationship with God harder to achieve.

Sometimes, a repeated prayer gives the body something to do while the soul focuses on God. Sometimes I just want to be with God without saying anything to him, so I will repeat a prayer or set of prayers to keep myself focused.

Job_38 · Feb 28, 2003

Today at 02:54 PM fragmentsofdreams said this in Post #28

So you have never taken any spiritual guidence or direction from any person other than Christ in your entire life?

 I have taken guidence, but I have never advanced spiritually apart from God.

happy · Mar 3, 2003

I have wondered the samethings myself. Why all the traditions. I was raised catholic but recently when I got saved I gave up the catholic stuff mainly because there were too many traditions and it all seemed fake. I have come across SOME catholics who are fake/ hypocrites all they are interested in is keeping the traditions. They have this "I am holier than thou" attitude, I love you, God loves you, God bless you on Sundays and holidays but when the rest of the week comes they want to live the way they want to, and they have a whole different attitude sor of like the Pharasies. Then I have met OTHER catholics that live like the bible says and keep the traditions too. I guess what may work for one may not work for the other. But as long as God and Jesus are the focus and not the traditions then it's okay. I do have a question though for the catholics. Where in the bible does it mention about Lent, Ash Wednesday, or not eating meat on Fridays? I have always wondered this since I was a little kid.

Caedmon · Mar 11, 2003

It is the individual's responsibility to involve herself in the Catholic Church's liturgy. But of course, that involves reading and studying, two things that many people find easier to simply decline.

"Good things in life are difficult" -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

But of course, Goethe is not mentioned in the Bible, so why bother?

Caedmon · Mar 11, 2003

3rd March 2003 at 03:14 AM happy said this in Post #32 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=686670#post686670)

I have wondered the samethings myself. Why all the traditions.

Beauty... Love... Reality... Relationship... Shall I go on?

I was raised catholic but recently when I got saved I gave up the catholic stuff mainly because there were too many traditions and it all seemed fake.

"eemed" is the key word here.

I have come across SOME catholics who are fake/ hypocrites all they are interested in is keeping the traditions. They have this "I am holier than thou" attitude, I love you, God loves you, God bless you on Sundays and holidays but when the rest of the week comes they want to live the way they want to, and they have a whole different attitude sor of like the Pharasies.

Click to expand...

I know lots of Baptists who have no problem grinning at the preacher on Sunday.

Then I have met OTHER catholics that live like the bible says and keep the traditions too.

Click to expand...

Actually, it's Tradition, as in, the oral teachings passed on by the Apostles throughout the centuries.

I guess what may work for one may not work for the other.

Click to expand...

So much for the Church being "one body"...

But as long as God and Jesus are the focus and not the traditions then it's okay.

Click to expand...

Actually, Catholics believe that sacred Tradition is the very teachings of Christ and the Apostles.

I do have a question though for the catholics. Where in the bible does it mention about Lent, Ash Wednesday, or not eating meat on Fridays? I have always wondered this since I was a little kid.

Click to expand...

It doesn't. These are holy days and disciplines that the Church observes in order to help bring her members into a deeper relationship with Christ.

tradition vs. relationship

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