Do you think Sabbath laws, and law in general are???

rnmomof7 said:

The purpose of the law God gave to Israel was so they would see then needed a Savior... because no one can keep that law.. Paul tells us that he would never have known his sin without the law... He also clearly defines its purpose..

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.


We are no longer under the schoolmaster ....

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"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom. 2:13

rnmomof7 said:

The purpose of the law God gave to Israel was so they would see then needed a Savior... because no one can keep that law.. Paul tells us that he would never have known his sin without the law... He also clearly defines its purpose..

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.


We are no longer under the schoolmaster ....

Click to expand...

Except Paul says we don't void the law by faith. We establish it. See below:

USE THE LAW PROPERLY - NOT FOR SALVATION, BUT FOR HOLY LIVING
"Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good." - Romans 7:12

"But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully." - 1 Timothy 1:8

"Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law." - Romans 3:31


JESUS COMMANDS IT
"Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." - Matthew 5:19

"If you love Me, keep My commandments." - John 14:15, John 14:10


JESUS WARNS AGAINST LAWLESSNESS
"And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’" - Matthew 7:23

"The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness." - Matthew 13:41

"Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness." - Matthew 23:28

"Jesus found the man at the Temple [area] and said to him, “See, you are well now. ·Stop sinning.” " - John 5:14

"Jesus said, “I also don’t ·judge you guilty [condemn you]. ·You may go now, but don’t sin anymore." " - John 8:11


PAUL WARNS AGAINST LAWLESSNESS
"For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness." - Romans 6:19

"What fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness?" - 2 Corinthians 6:14

"The law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers." - 1 Timothy 1:9

"You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness, therefore God has anointed you." - Hebrews 1:9, Psalms 45:7

"Come back to your right way of thinking [Come to your senses; or Sober up as you should] and stop sinning. Some of you ·do not know [or are ignorant about] God—I say this to shame you." - 1 Corinthians 15:34


PAUL SAID HE KEPT THE LAW BLAMELESSLY
"If anyone else thinks he may have confidence in the flesh, I more so: concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless." - Philippians 3:4, Philippians 3:6


JOHN SAID WE SHOULD WALK LIKE JESUS DID
"He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked." - 1 John 2:6


MOSES, DAVID, PAUL, AND JOHN SAY THERE IS FORGIVENESS FOR SINS
"Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered." - Romans 4:7, Psalms 32:1

"So the priest shall make atonement for him concerning his sin, and it shall be forgiven him." - Leviticus 4:26, Leviticus 4:35, Leviticus 5:10

"Who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works." - Titus 2:14

"For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more." - Hebrews 8:12, Hebrews 10:17

"Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness." - 1 John 3:4

"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." - 1 John 1:9


JESUS PROMOTES LAW AND GRACE TOGETHER
"Then Jesus said to them, “So every ·teacher of the law [scribe] who has ·been taught about [become a disciple of] the kingdom of heaven is like the ·owner [head] of a house. He brings out both new things and old things ·he has saved [from his treasure/storeroom; knowledge of the Old Testament provides insight into Jesus’ “new” message of the kingdom of God].” " - Matthew 13:52

"And He replied to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind (intellect). 38 This is the great (most important, principal) and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as [you do] yourself. 40 All the law and the ·writings of the prophets [prophets] ·depend [are based; hang] on these two commands." - Matthew 22:37-40


THE APOSTLES PROMOTE LAW AND GRACE TOGETHER
"So also faith, if it does not have works (deeds and actions of obedience to back it up), by itself is destitute of power (inoperative, dead)." - James 2:17

"For as the human body apart from the spirit is lifeless, so faith apart from [its] works of obedience is also dead." - James 2:26

"Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law." - Romans 3:31


THE BIBLE PROMOTES LAW AND GRACE TOGETHER
John 17:17, Psalms 119:160, John 1:14, John 1:17, Colossians 1:6, 2 John 1:3, Genesis 24:27, 2 Samuel 15:20, Proverbs 3:3, Proverbs 16:6, Micah 7:20


GRACE UNDER THE LAW
Psalms 32:2, Psalms 51:10, Psalms 109:26, 1 Chronicles 16:34, Ezra 9:9, Nehemiah 9:31-32, Nehemiah 13:22, Psalms 5:7, Psalms 23:6, Psalms 33:18, Psalms 33:22, Psalms 36:5, Psalms 52:8, Psalms 59:17, Psalms 86:15, Psalms 98:3, Psalms 100:5, Psalms 105:8, Psalms 136, Proverbs 28:13, Isaiah 14:1, Isaiah 54:8-10, Isaiah 55:7, Jeremiah 31:20, Ezekiel 39:25, Daniel 9:9, Hosea 1:7-8, Micah 7:18-20, Zechariah 1:16, Zechariah 10:6, Leviticus 4:26, Leviticus 4:35, Leviticus 5:10

The problem im having is that people are misapplying paul's words. They are telling me that if i obey a command that "Paul" himself gives me, such as being content with food and clothing, or not using my liberty to serve the flesh, then i am trying to obey the law.

Is that not absurd? Do you not see how utterly absurd that is?

Use common sense people, that's all i ask. If paul doesn't teach us to live by the law, then his commands must be teaching us how to walk in the spirit.

There is no way that you can possibly tell me that obeying Paul's commands is the same as putting myself under the Law. Paul doesn't put people under the law but he teaches them how to walk in the spirit by following Christ.

Do you not see how absurd this nonsense is? Please dont teach me to disregard Pauls commands. That's not helping me walk in the spirit, but instead is only obstructing my path, and its causing strife as well which also obstructs our path. Use your common sense, please.

Pauls commands are not the Schoolmaster of Galatians. When Paul says that we must not use our liberty to serve the flesh, do you know what he is saying? He is saying to us- do not do evil things. Is paul putting us under the law? No, but he is saying that we obey the commands that teach us right from wrong.

When paul is saying not to sow to the flesh, do you know what he is saying? He is saying to us- do not do evil things. Is he putting us under the law? No, but again, hes saying that we obey the commands that teach us right from wrong

Common sense, please

Paul is not teaching us that obeying commands is wrong. He Is not saying that we should throw out all the commands that he himself, and Christ gave us. Paul is simply saying that those commands will not make us righteous, and not give us any reason to boast. Those commands are not so we can earn salvation or boast. Those commands teach us how to love each other, and how to love God too. This flesh we have is worldly, its selfish, its not who we really are either. This flesh will die, its only temporary.

I surely agree that we should meditate on love in all things, but dont try to tell me that obeying the commands of Christ or of Paul are the same as following the law because thats nonsense. I believe in not judging others and i believe in living by Gods grace, but i also believe in follwing his commands. Im not perfect but neither are you. You say i must be perfect if i follow the commandments of Paul and Christ? Why? Are you perfect? No. DO we throw out Gods commands because we are not perfect? No, that would only be to admit that we love to do evil instead of good.

Poster0 said:

The problem im having is that people are misapplying paul's words. They are telling me that if i obey a command that "Paul" himself gives me, such as being content with food and clothing, or not using my liberty to serve the flesh, then i am trying to obey the law.

Is that not absurd? Do you not see how utterly absurd that is?

Use common sense people, that's all i ask. If paul doesn't teach us to live by the law, then his commands must be teaching us how to walk in the spirit.

There is no way that you can possibly tell me that obeying Paul's commands is the same as putting myself under the Law. Paul doesn't put people under the law but he teaches them how to walk in the spirit by following Christ.

Do you not see how absurd this nonsense is? Please dont teach me to disregard Pauls commands. That's not helping me walk in the spirit, but instead is only obstructing my path, and its causing strife as well which also obstructs our path. Use your common sense, please.

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Paul quite often used "in the Spirit" or "by the Spirit" or "through the Spirit".

Reading all those scriptures is quite refreshing. Hold the cursor over the scripture to read all the good words about the Holy Spirit working in and through us. Note also the OT believers had access to the same Holy Spirit:

IN THE SPIRIT
Acts of the Apostles 19:21, Romans 2:29, Romans 8:9, Galatians 3:3, Galatians 5:16, Galatians 5:25, Ephesians 2:22, Ephesians 6:18, Philippians 3:3, Revelation 1:10, Revelation 4:2, Revelation 17:3, Revelation 21:10, *OT believers: Ezekiel 37:1, Matthew 22:43, Luke 10:21, Luke 11:33


BY THE SPIRIT
Acts of the Apostles 11:28, Acts of the Apostles 18:5, Romans 8:13-14, Romans 15:13, Romans 15:39, 1 Corinthians 6:11, 1 Corinthians 12:3, 2 Corinthians 3:3, 2 Corinthians 3:18, Galatians 5:18, Ephesians 3:5, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 1 Peter 3:18, 1 John 3:24, *OT believers: 1 Chronicles 28:12, Ezekiel 11:24, Micah 3:8, Matthew 4:1, Matthew 12:28, Luke 2:27, Luke 4:1


THROUGH THE SPIRIT
Acts of the Apostles 21:4, 1 Corinthians 12:8, Galatians 5:5, 1 Peter 1:22

This question about the mosaic law was answered at the Jerusalem council 2000 years ago,, I'm surprised it is still being asked today, especially post Gods destruction of the temple and the priesthood.

In acts 15 after the Gentiles began to believe the gospel ..

5 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”

But when this question came up to the apostles about wither Gentiles should be Holden to the law of Moses Peter says.

why do you test God by putting a yoke [law of moses] on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ[a]we shall be saved in the same manner as they.”



The only Law keeping text inferences in the New Testament come from Jewish apostles who were living as Christian Jews in a transition period,, a time when the temple system was still in operation and as Jews they were still part of that system at that time physically, though not spiritually.. When god destroyed that system completely in 70ad they were free from the bondage physically as well.. Attempting to put a Christian under that yoke today is utterly absurd, carnal, fleshly and Worldly minded (satanic)

Truthfrees said:

Paul quite often used "in the Spirit" or "by the Spirit" or "through the Spirit".

Reading all those scriptures is quite refreshing. Hold the cursor over the scripture to read all the good words about the Holy Spirit working in and through us. Note also the OT believers had access to the same Holy Spirit:

IN THE SPIRIT
Acts of the Apostles 19:21, Romans 2:29, Romans 8:9, Galatians 3:3, Galatians 5:16, Galatians 5:25, Ephesians 2:22, Ephesians 6:18, Philippians 3:3, Revelation 1:10, Revelation 4:2, Revelation 17:3, Revelation 21:10, *OT believers: Ezekiel 37:1, Matthew 22:43, Luke 10:21, Luke 11:33


BY THE SPIRIT
Acts of the Apostles 11:28, Acts of the Apostles 18:5, Romans 8:13-14, Romans 15:13, Romans 15:39, 1 Corinthians 6:11, 1 Corinthians 12:3, 2 Corinthians 3:3, 2 Corinthians 3:18, Galatians 5:18, Ephesians 3:5, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 1 Peter 3:18, 1 John 3:24, *OT believers: 1 Chronicles 28:12, Ezekiel 11:24, Micah 3:8, Matthew 4:1, Matthew 12:28, Luke 2:27, Luke 4:1


THROUGH THE SPIRIT
Acts of the Apostles 21:4, 1 Corinthians 12:8, Galatians 5:5, 1 Peter 1:22

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This scripture from 1 Peter seems much the same as paul also says in Galatians. Its really telling us to put off works of the flesh. Its a command to not do evil things. Its just that simple. I dont why people would say this is the same as being under the law, because surely neither Peter or Paul are putting us under the Law in these scriptures, and they seem to be in agreement. Peter says our evil desires wage war against our soul. Paul says those things do not bear fruit. It seems pretty clear that they want us to put off works of the flesh.

Judging others is a work of the flesh, so is pride, strife, greed, hate, slander, and many other things. Why would anyone suggest that its wrong to put these things off? We can walk in love surely, but these things can still creep in and try to war against our soul. Its also helpful to understand what holiness is because holiness helps us to avoid fleshy desires and instead walk in the spirit. Holiness is a separation from this world, and a separation from flesh. Holiness is very important.

That's why i believe its important to learn about the many works of the flesh and the many attributes of love, and about holiness. Our goal is to walk in the spirit therefore its wise to understand the difference between spirit and flesh. Its also wise to learn about love. Love is not something we can understand in just one command alone, and that's why paul wrote 1 Corinthians 13, Romans 14, Galatians 5, and so many other insightful scriptures that help us to learn and meditate on love.

1 Peter 2:11 Dear friends, I urge you, as foreigners and exiles, to abstain from sinful desires, which wage war against your soul. 12 Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us.


16 Live as free people, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as God’s slaves.

Reformed Lutheran said:

This question about the mosaic law was answered at the Jerusalem council 2000 years ago,, I'm surprised it is still being asked today, especially post Gods destruction of the temple and the priesthood.

In acts 15 after the Gentiles began to believe the gospel ..

5 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”

But when this question came up to the apostles about wither Gentiles should be Holden to the law of Moses Peter says.

why do you test God by putting a yoke [law of moses] on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ[a]we shall be saved in the same manner as they.”



The only Law keeping text inferences in the New Testament come from Jewish apostles who were living as Christian Jews in a transition period,, a time when the temple system was still in operation and as Jews they were still part of that system at that time physically, though not spiritually.. When god destroyed that system completely in 70ad they were free from the bondage physically as well.. Attempting to put a Christian under that yoke today is utterly absurd, carnal, fleshly and Worldly minded (satanic)

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I agree that circumcision is not an act of righteousness or love, its just a sign that God gave Abraham, and no Christian needs to be circumcised. I also agree that we ourselves are the temple of God, and Christ himself is the high priest, and we are all priests ourselves who tend to the temple that is our self.

I just think its absurd to say that Paul's commands are the law. Paul would need to be a madman to rebuke law keeping and then preach the law himself. His commands are not the Law but are the way that we learn to live in holiness which is to walk in the spirit, and about love. Many of the anti law posters in this forum are not actually preaching pauls doctrine, but they are misrepresenting it instead.

If Paul were in this forum preaching, he would urge us to live in holiness, however the anti law posters would then accuse paul of trying to preach the law.

Cant strain gnats and swallow camels.

Think about what holiness actually is. Its a separation from this world which is a separation from flesh. Worldly concerns like politics and economics for example, these are the reasons why people fight and argue. It leads us away from walking in the spirit and teaches us to instead walk in the flesh, and to war in the flesh. Look at the division in politics and note that its all over worldly concerns like economics, worldly leaders, and worldly laws. If we are free, and not under Moses Law, then why would we care to legislate laws for other people to live by? This world, its laws and its economics are not our concern. God judges the outside world, not us. Holiness is all about love, and all about walking in the spirit, if you consider it carefully. Its not the law, its walking in the spirit and in liberty as well.

- Being "anti law" is a form of lawlessness , which is scripturally condemned.
- being "yoked" to the law is a form of slavery, falling from grace and is scripturally condemned.

The problem with most of our understanding about the law is based on our 21st century mind sets,, rather then the first century mind of Paul. Here's a couple of points that may help bring out the Pauline perspective regarding the law.

- to a first century Jew the Law was a mode of existence, a way of life that was the only way to relate to God, it was the only covenant way of life, the law was Life itself
- to them the law was freedom from sin and the devil, they believed in the "evil inclination" that would torment them and the only escape from that was the law,, the law soothed the wounds of sin. It was the healer and protector.

I could go over many more points regrading the Jew and the law in the first century,, or you can click on my blog below and read my article on the Romans 7 man (first century Jew struggling under the law)..

Anyways everything that the law of Moses was to them as the source of all life,, was now fulfilled in Christ, Christ replaced that mode of existence and he became life for them, he became all that they thought the law was (and more). Christ and the teaching of Paul concerning the new covenant turned their whole world upside down. tHE LAW was a major point in Paul's teachings because of the times and world he lived in. We however don't live in the world where a Jewish temple and Jewish priesthood and animal sacrifices are at the center of our life.

For us now the law is as Paul teaches in regards to Gentiles, the law is for law breakers and murderers and adulterers. It's a moral compass for the immoral, but for those who belong to Christ and who have his spirit, we have ascended to heaven itself,, no need of an earthy law. Our "moral compass" is Christ himself,, the law of Moses for those in Christ is elementary, our moral laws and principles in Christ are much much higher. Our "mode of existence" is Christ, not the law of Moses like it was to old covenant Jews.

The law is good (as Paul says) - Christ is better (as Paul says).. But living under the former rather then the latter is falling from grace

Reformed Lutheran said:

- Being "anti law" is a form of lawlessness , which is scripturally condemned.
- being "yoked" to the law is a form of slavery, falling from grace and is scripturally condemned.

The problem with most of our understanding about the law is based on our 21st century mind sets,, rather then the first century mind of Paul. Here's a couple of points that may help bring out the Pauline perspective regarding the law.

- to a first century Jew the Law was a mode of existence, a way of life that was the only way to relate to God, it was the only covenant way of life, the law was Life itself
- to them the law was freedom from sin and the devil, they believed in the "evil inclination" that would torment them and the only escape from that was the law,, the law soothed the wounds of sin. It was the healer and protector.

I could go over many more points regrading the Jew and the law in the first century,, or you can click on my blog below and read my article on the Romans 7 man (first century Jew struggling under the law)..

Anyways everything that the law of Moses was to them as the source of all life,, was now fulfilled in Christ, Christ replaced that mode of existence and he became life for them, he became all that they thought the law was (and more). Christ and the teaching of Paul concerning the new covenant turned their whole world upside down. tHE LAW was a major point in Paul's teachings because of the times and world he lived in. We however don't live in the world where a Jewish temple and Jewish priesthood and animal sacrifices are at the center of our life.

For us now the law is as Paul teaches in regards to Gentiles, the law is for law breakers and murderers and adulterers. It's a moral compass for the immoral, but for those who belong to Christ and who have his spirit, we have ascended to heaven itself,, no need of an earthy law. Our "moral compass" is Christ himself,, the law of Moses for those in Christ is elementary, our moral laws and principles in Christ are much much higher. Our "mode of existence" is Christ, not the law of Moses like it was to old covenant Jews.

The law is good (as Paul says) - Christ is better (as Paul says).. But living under the former rather then the latter is falling from grace

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I see you are referring to the law of Moses. However my concern is only about the commands of Christ and Paul. So what does your commentary mean? Does it mean that there is no need for the commands of Christ or Paul either? Surely that's not what Paul was preaching is it?

Paul calls us to obedience to the faith,, he commands all to repent and believe the gospel. We should obey the commandments of the Spirit, of course.

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death (law of Moses) Romans 8

We are freed from one law (Moses) so that we may serve the other (Christ).. So I agree we should follow the commands of Christ, which Paul expounds upon

Reformed Lutheran said:

Paul calls us to obedience to the faith,, he commands all to repent and believe the gospel. We should obey the commandments of the Spirit, of course.

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death (law of Moses) Romans 8

We are freed from one law (Moses) so that we may serve the other (Christ).. So I agree we should follow the commands of Christ, which Paul expounds upon

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Amen.

So as a Jew I should I disobey the commands given through Moses now? The law of Yeshua has set me free from obeying the law of Moses? The Jewish Messiah came, as prophesied, and his gift and message of redemption is that I am no longer to obey all that was commanded of me beforehand? Even though when it was commanded it was quite well stated that IF we ever stopped obeying this Torah we would forever be cursed? And even though God told us that it would last forever, even if transforming the way it was ministered, I am now commanded by the same Word, that became flesh, that forever really doesn't mean forever? And that even though he promised that it would be our calling that defines us as a people even in the world to come, there really won't be physical (seeds) descendants of Abraham in the world to come?

Everything that God said to us before was 'not really' what he meant. Forever means until we are replaced by the church? Having descendants of the house of Yisrael in the world to come really meant 'spirituall Yisrael', not the Jews we knew throughout all history?

Paul was a JEW too,, And he said he was no longer under the law now that he had come to Christ

Galatians 3
15 Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man’s covenant, yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it. 16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,”[i] who is Christ. 17 And this I say,that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ,[j] that it should make the promise of no effect. 18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Purpose of the Law
19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, untill the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

Sons and Heirs
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.



And as for "physical descendants" of Abraham. Paul said to cast out the fleshly, for the promise is to the sons of the spiritual


Gal 4
21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise,24 which things are symbolic. For these are the[d] two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written:

“Rejoice, O barren,
You who do not bear!
Break forth and shout,
You who are not in labor!
For the desolate has many more children
Than she who has a husband.”[e]

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now.30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.”[f] 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.

I'll take your response as a resounding yes to my questions.

Reformed Lutheran said:

Paul was a JEW too,, And he said he was no longer under the law now that he had come to Christ

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Yeshua our Messiah said this to Yisrael.

So your reformed Pauline doctrine seems to have some huge issues. OR you don't really understand Paul and what it means to be 'under the law', and how we are freed from 'the curse of the law'.

Reformed Lutheran said:

And as for "physical descendants" of Abraham. Paul said to cast out the fleshly, for the promise is to the sons of the spiritual

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Now I know you don't speak the message of the holy one of Yisrael, he never said he was coming to 'cast out the fleshly' from Yisrael and replace it completely with spiritual sons.


Your reformed theology is woefully inaccurate when one considers the Word of God given us. The only response you have is to teach that the church cast us out and that God has commanded we no longer are bound to what he commands.

This is the reform that the Spirit has brought to Yisrael? The Spirit of God is bi-polar? Yes,....now no........but some..... but NOT now! I see you teaching things about the Spirit that God never said. In the name of Paul even.


How telling that reformed theology bases it's doctrine on Paul. And that it mainly consists of 'not being under the law', and 'casting away the fleshly (read Jews)'. Pauline doctrine is heretical at it's core. Not to mention anti-Yisrael. Replacement theology is not the message of Messiah.

The example of Jesus, the perfect Jew/Israelite , is this..

He was born under the law, born of a woman, born of the line of David, circumcised, and lived under the old covenant mode of existence.. He then died to that system on the cross, he died to it (died to the flesh system) and then rose again to a new mode of existence (life in the Spirit).. He is the example for all Israel, to die to the old and live to the new.

As the writer of Hebrews so clearly says to his fellow Jews "like Christ we must go outside the camp",, leave the old way and live by the new
And as john said "Come out of her my people"


Israel wasn't replaced by the church , she was perfected by Christ and came into new covenant maturity,, as for carnal apostate fleshly Israel that crucified the prince of peace, she was destroyed by fire forever as Christ said he would do to her.

Reformed Lutheran said:

as for carnal apostate fleshly Israel that crucified the prince of peace, she was destroyed by fire forever as Christ said he would do to her

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Great gospel message.... Good news Yisrael, your toast and your kingdom is given to gentiles..... forever. I don't see the words of our Messiah coming from you at all. And all you've done with your witness to me is reassure me of my position as a Messianic Jew. Thank you.

We have not been destroyed, we live and will reign with Messiah. Our Messiah who loves us and redeems us. I guess it's a good thing you don't want to grasp what will be done to the nations who reject the plan of God for Yisrael. There is still time for you though! As long as you breath, to come to the Holy One of Yisrael and beg forgiveness for claiming that his chosen nation is no more. He will rule from a physical throne, in a physical city, here on earth. And everyone who ever lived will be resurrected and judged by their works. Except those who did not work for themselves but allowed the Spirit of God to work within them. They will rule with Messiah. From Yisrael. Hope to see you there!